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On October 16 2011 01:44 mvtaylor wrote:
I wouldn't like to be DdoRo right now
So true:D
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On October 16 2011 01:45 NuclearJudas wrote:
Match-ups for getting into group play:
ViBe vs TheStc
Goswser vs MarineKing
Ddoro vs Inori
Sase vs Jinro
Good games incoming
FUCK YES!!!
I am the orinal op of the old 'underrated' players that still sometimes gets bumped and discuces in. And i still stand by Inka and Ddoro as being hugely underrated.
Ddoro fighting!!! the kid is sick good, higher bw skill than huk and many others if i recall (3 accounts at a- and a, 2 diff races)
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Lmao! JulyZerg wiping tears off kids faces.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On October 16 2011 01:46 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 01:45 Drazerk wrote:On October 16 2011 01:44 Drazerk wrote:On October 16 2011 01:43 Drazerk wrote:On October 16 2011 01:43 Drazerk wrote:On October 16 2011 01:42 Drazerk wrote:On October 16 2011 01:41 Drazerk wrote:On October 16 2011 01:41 Drazerk wrote:On October 16 2011 01:40 Drazerk wrote:On October 16 2011 01:39 Drazerk wrote:
[quote]
9:10
Both players are expanding at the same time
Erin now going roach tech and taking his lair
11:00
Infestation pit on the way for Evin
11:30
Pathogen glands and a macro hatch for evin as alter only just starts his lair 12:00Evo chamber and roach speed from Evin 13:00Banelings of alter are sniped by three lings 14:00Roach sped starting for alter now 1/1 for evin Fungal on all of alter's roaches 15:00Evin now has a big supply lead after killing Alter's roach forces 16:00Baneling speed and burrow on the way for Alter Burrow on the way for Evin as well 16:50infestation pit on the way for Alter Gold base going up for both players at the exact same time 17:40Altez ( Yes i realized I've been doing his name wrong all game ) loses a lot of roaches huge baneling mines have been set up
19:00
Big baneling mines go off but the sheer roach forces of evin kills the remaining forces of Altez
Altez GGs
Evin takes the series 2-1
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Haha July zerg wiping Miniwheat's tears
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On October 16 2011 01:43 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 01:40 Baituri wrote:On October 16 2011 01:38 ohampatu wrote:On October 16 2011 01:32 tree.hugger wrote:On October 16 2011 01:26 ohampatu wrote:
I disagree completely on Stephano/Ret/Nerchio... Im not for sure how you could even name them as top.
Stephano has only ipl 3. Unless he gets more there's just not enough information to put him as a top player.
Ret has the ability to be in that list, but doesn't have the results at all recently, even stephano has more results than ret. (just because he is doing good in pool play really doesn't mean anything).
Nerchio doesn't have LAN results. Enough Said.
Sen and Idra are the onlly zergs i think we can call 'top' right now, with ret narrowing out the 3 id say. Sen is really the only foreigner zerg who deserves to be top right now, all other foreigner zergs are only just now starting to show good promise again (ret recently increasing, idra recently increasing, stephano making a breakthrough).
Instead of talking about top foreigner zerg, since no zerg has really emmerged as the top, i wish we would just all put our hopes on idra/sen/ret/dimaga/stephano and cheer for all instead of comparing so much. None of them are clear winners. At this point in time it doesn't matter who comes out, as long as one or two of them do. See my response above, results are cute and all, but I think you should be able to determine whether one player is better than the other based on actually watching them play, as opposed to looking at numbers in TLPD. Obviously if a player fails to get results after a while, then it seems like they're doing something wrong, but ideally my thoughts on those players will be proven right in the future. You say you don't have enough information on Stephano, Nerchio, Ret but that's because you haven't been trying to get it. It's all out there. I think IdrA's mindset has clearly improved, and that's great because that was really holding him back. His map vision and multitask haven't faltered so much from his BW days, and his macro and unit composition decisions seem to also have improved, which is good because those were two other big issues he had. What keeps IdrA from being at the very top, in my opinion, is that he doesn't scout enough, relies on incomplete reads of his opponents, and I still question some of his decision making. He's obviously extremely good though. Sen is fantastic, I just haven't seen enough of him lately, and he's lost a bit in the TeSL, which is weird. But he could very well get right back to the top, it's hard to tell. I dont know if you missed the post i put about 4 posts above yours (i know these threads are crazy to hold conversation. But i stated pretty much the same thing. No zerg has multiple recent results to show they are above the others. Sen has gone of the market with the TeSF for now, and Idra/Stephano/Ret all seemed to make a recent splash. Nothign past that though. I hope they all start doing well. Yes we could look at the player skill and use our knowledge to make good results. But then Idra/Ret are almost always going to be on that list, because if they are in top form and playing at a level of their old bw skill, they will dominate. But we have to take consistency into play. But you can be consistently good, without showing a lot of results. You can have a lot of impressive games without finishing in the top 3 of a tournament. People are only looking at the top finishes of a tournament and will determine their skill from that. Well yea, its def bad to just look at 'oh stephano lost to alive he sucks' or something like that. When i say basing off of results, i still say 'hey that kid is a beast cause he went 15-0 before losing in mlg'. To me thats impressive and i'll still use that when judging the player, even if its not a top 3 finish. Thats why these discussions are hard to choose. Everybody has different opinions and everybody bases their opinion off of different skills. Instead of saying 'these people are best' id love to just see 'these people could go on a huge tear if they have a good consistent day'. Polt just lost in the open bracket, but i wouldn't call him shitty for it by no means.
Exactly. But by those standards, I can't believe you say Ret, Stephano and Nerchio are not the top. And Idra and Sen are. I mean, they are all 3 really good. But if some of these guys have shown they can beast through an entire tournament it are Stephano and Nerchio, since they do it every week in the Online cups.
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awww haha july being a feelings gosu too 
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On October 16 2011 01:38 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 01:37 vdale wrote:
poor hasu, he never has any luck with his build orders in PvP ... That wasnt about luck, he opened double gas with no chrono saved three games in a row and got "countered" all 3 games, SaSe lost the first game due to trying a double expand and then getting out of position with part of his army but overall he was always going to win with that style vs 2 gas chronod probes from 1 base
he didn't chrono his probes, he used chrono on his stalkers.
blink stalker expand, very fast 1base colossi or simply a late 4 gate once the nexus is ready would countered Sase's build.
second game was a build order win (dts, observer timing)
first game was just wierd
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On October 16 2011 01:45 my0s wrote:
Tastless totally catching himself from saying "Here at the GSL" durring that last closing.
Inb4 "Tasteless lost his passion!".
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Sase to Pool D? Need another protoss there ...
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France13003 Posts
On October 16 2011 01:45 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 01:40 Azarkon wrote:On October 16 2011 01:39 StarVe wrote:
I hope SaSe wins against Jinro and gets into the PvP pool. :D Jinro has expressed repeatedly that he is frustrated by Protoss. If he hasn't drastically improved in the MU, SaSe has a good chance of taking him down. I'm such in the Jinro train in the TvP area xD I see all korean terran pwning protoss left and right, and whatever I do TvP is my worst matchup. If I had only my playing experience to judge I would say that protoss is imba haha :D (which I know is not true obviously) I think Jinro is more or less in the same boat (well, I'm in the same boat as him is more correct).
Which league are you in?
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On October 16 2011 01:40 Baituri wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 01:38 ohampatu wrote:On October 16 2011 01:32 tree.hugger wrote:On October 16 2011 01:26 ohampatu wrote:
I disagree completely on Stephano/Ret/Nerchio... Im not for sure how you could even name them as top.
Stephano has only ipl 3. Unless he gets more there's just not enough information to put him as a top player.
Ret has the ability to be in that list, but doesn't have the results at all recently, even stephano has more results than ret. (just because he is doing good in pool play really doesn't mean anything).
Nerchio doesn't have LAN results. Enough Said.
Sen and Idra are the onlly zergs i think we can call 'top' right now, with ret narrowing out the 3 id say. Sen is really the only foreigner zerg who deserves to be top right now, all other foreigner zergs are only just now starting to show good promise again (ret recently increasing, idra recently increasing, stephano making a breakthrough).
Instead of talking about top foreigner zerg, since no zerg has really emmerged as the top, i wish we would just all put our hopes on idra/sen/ret/dimaga/stephano and cheer for all instead of comparing so much. None of them are clear winners. At this point in time it doesn't matter who comes out, as long as one or two of them do. See my response above, results are cute and all, but I think you should be able to determine whether one player is better than the other based on actually watching them play, as opposed to looking at numbers in TLPD. Obviously if a player fails to get results after a while, then it seems like they're doing something wrong, but ideally my thoughts on those players will be proven right in the future. You say you don't have enough information on Stephano, Nerchio, Ret but that's because you haven't been trying to get it. It's all out there. I think IdrA's mindset has clearly improved, and that's great because that was really holding him back. His map vision and multitask haven't faltered so much from his BW days, and his macro and unit composition decisions seem to also have improved, which is good because those were two other big issues he had. What keeps IdrA from being at the very top, in my opinion, is that he doesn't scout enough, relies on incomplete reads of his opponents, and I still question some of his decision making. He's obviously extremely good though. Sen is fantastic, I just haven't seen enough of him lately, and he's lost a bit in the TeSL, which is weird. But he could very well get right back to the top, it's hard to tell. I dont know if you missed the post i put about 4 posts above yours (i know these threads are crazy to hold conversation. But i stated pretty much the same thing. No zerg has multiple recent results to show they are above the others. Sen has gone of the market with the TeSF for now, and Idra/Stephano/Ret all seemed to make a recent splash. Nothign past that though. I hope they all start doing well. Yes we could look at the player skill and use our knowledge to make good results. But then Idra/Ret are almost always going to be on that list, because if they are in top form and playing at a level of their old bw skill, they will dominate. But we have to take consistency into play. But you can be consistently good, without showing a lot of results. You can have a lot of impressive games without finishing in the top 3 of a tournament. People are only looking at the top finishes of a tournament and will determine their skill from that.
That has to be judged on a case by case basis. Obviously, if you demonstrate great games against excellent players, and only failed to achieve a championship because you keep getting bad draws and/or unfortunate cheeses, then you would qualify for top player even without winning anything. But the difference between Nerchio and most other players in the list is that Nerchio has barely played in international LANs - a quality that is rather important in determining how good a player is.
If Nerchio is able to demonstrate the same kind of strong play he demonstrates online on international LANs, then even if he doesn't win, I'd put him right up there with the best of the best. But if he crumbles to the pressure, similar to how Kas did back when he was winning all those European online tournaments, then I don't think it's fair to set him on the same level as players who have demonstrated that they're able to handle the pressure and do well in LANs.
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On October 16 2011 01:47 Baituri wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 01:43 ohampatu wrote:On October 16 2011 01:40 Baituri wrote:On October 16 2011 01:38 ohampatu wrote:On October 16 2011 01:32 tree.hugger wrote:On October 16 2011 01:26 ohampatu wrote:
I disagree completely on Stephano/Ret/Nerchio... Im not for sure how you could even name them as top.
Stephano has only ipl 3. Unless he gets more there's just not enough information to put him as a top player.
Ret has the ability to be in that list, but doesn't have the results at all recently, even stephano has more results than ret. (just because he is doing good in pool play really doesn't mean anything).
Nerchio doesn't have LAN results. Enough Said.
Sen and Idra are the onlly zergs i think we can call 'top' right now, with ret narrowing out the 3 id say. Sen is really the only foreigner zerg who deserves to be top right now, all other foreigner zergs are only just now starting to show good promise again (ret recently increasing, idra recently increasing, stephano making a breakthrough).
Instead of talking about top foreigner zerg, since no zerg has really emmerged as the top, i wish we would just all put our hopes on idra/sen/ret/dimaga/stephano and cheer for all instead of comparing so much. None of them are clear winners. At this point in time it doesn't matter who comes out, as long as one or two of them do. See my response above, results are cute and all, but I think you should be able to determine whether one player is better than the other based on actually watching them play, as opposed to looking at numbers in TLPD. Obviously if a player fails to get results after a while, then it seems like they're doing something wrong, but ideally my thoughts on those players will be proven right in the future. You say you don't have enough information on Stephano, Nerchio, Ret but that's because you haven't been trying to get it. It's all out there. I think IdrA's mindset has clearly improved, and that's great because that was really holding him back. His map vision and multitask haven't faltered so much from his BW days, and his macro and unit composition decisions seem to also have improved, which is good because those were two other big issues he had. What keeps IdrA from being at the very top, in my opinion, is that he doesn't scout enough, relies on incomplete reads of his opponents, and I still question some of his decision making. He's obviously extremely good though. Sen is fantastic, I just haven't seen enough of him lately, and he's lost a bit in the TeSL, which is weird. But he could very well get right back to the top, it's hard to tell. I dont know if you missed the post i put about 4 posts above yours (i know these threads are crazy to hold conversation. But i stated pretty much the same thing. No zerg has multiple recent results to show they are above the others. Sen has gone of the market with the TeSF for now, and Idra/Stephano/Ret all seemed to make a recent splash. Nothign past that though. I hope they all start doing well. Yes we could look at the player skill and use our knowledge to make good results. But then Idra/Ret are almost always going to be on that list, because if they are in top form and playing at a level of their old bw skill, they will dominate. But we have to take consistency into play. But you can be consistently good, without showing a lot of results. You can have a lot of impressive games without finishing in the top 3 of a tournament. People are only looking at the top finishes of a tournament and will determine their skill from that. Well yea, its def bad to just look at 'oh stephano lost to alive he sucks' or something like that. When i say basing off of results, i still say 'hey that kid is a beast cause he went 15-0 before losing in mlg'. To me thats impressive and i'll still use that when judging the player, even if its not a top 3 finish. Thats why these discussions are hard to choose. Everybody has different opinions and everybody bases their opinion off of different skills. Instead of saying 'these people are best' id love to just see 'these people could go on a huge tear if they have a good consistent day'. Polt just lost in the open bracket, but i wouldn't call him shitty for it by no means. Exactly. But by those standards, I can't believe you say Ret, Stephano and Nerchio are not the top. And Idra and Sen are. I mean, they are all 3 really good. But if some of these guys have shown they can beast through an entire tournament it are Stephano and Nerchio, since they do it every week in the Online cups.
If i took online cups seriously, id agree with you. But time and time again we have seen foreigners beating koreans in online cups. I will withold judgement on Nerchio till i see him participate in LAN frequently. Because his last LAN or 2 was not impressive.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
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On October 16 2011 01:29 Vansetsu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 01:16 tree.hugger wrote:On October 16 2011 01:02 Vansetsu wrote:On October 16 2011 00:50 Elroi wrote:On October 16 2011 00:38 BLinD-RawR wrote:
2 things,
1)Stephano is not the best foreigner zerg.
Who would you say is better? I think he is the best foreigner and I am almost 100% sure he has got the most potential in terms of talent. There is absolutely no right answer to this in the foreign scene. There is no one with a total package game right now. The three closest answers are Dimaga, Idra, and Sen. Stephano has been showing results, but he certainly has big holes in his total game. Fortunately for him so far, the things he is doing good is making up for the things he doesn't have down perfect. If you can't tell, his big weakness are his late game mechanics. His strong points are his decision making/early mid game and decent micro. You're right on some things, but the fact that you list DIMAGA as having the total package, while dismissing Stephano's micro makes me think you know much less about these players than you're pretending to. DIMAGA's unit control, especially with a large army is appallingly bad, it's far and away his biggest weakness. Stephano's micro is actually quite good. Best three foreign zergs are Stephano, Nerchio, and Ret in some order, and then IdrA, Sen, Sheth, and DIMAGA are right behind, and IdrA may yet have recovered enough to be counted among the top three. But I think the top three is pretty hard to dispute if you watch the individual play. I agree with that I guess. You're correct in that I don't watch enough foreign Zergs, and the ones I listed have always shown some consistently stable or strong play (or just a bit more mainstream play in General). I absolutely did not consider Ret or Nerchio, and while I havn''t seen so much Nerchio (though I know he has been posting results), I kind of dropped the ball on Ret. Also, while I wasn't downplaying Stephano's micro, I wasn't highlighting it much either, as I feel it gets a bit weaker as the games get more mechanically intense, from the games I've seen anyways. If I had to put someone for zergs to par up to micro=mechanics wise, it would probably be Leenock after the games he played with Ganzi. I just feel that what makes Stephano really strong are his decisions and army compositions (which he uses with good micro earlier in the games I've seen), and I think that's a mimic-able trait for players who have better mechanics if they choose.
He might not have completely stellar micro, but from what I have seen in the foreign scene only Nerchio has maybe better. Frankly zergs in general and foreign ones especially do a lot of basic micro mistakes (I guess because they have somewhat harder macro that needs constant care), basically every zerg suicides infestors for nothing all the time. Stephano and Nerchio do that less than others, and in all other aspects of micro they are on top of foreign zerg scene.
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EPT
