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Stay positive, be happy and enjoy the event. Caster bashing and player bashing? Too much whining? Uh-oh! |
On August 04 2011 20:33 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:18 Azarkon wrote:
Foreigners aren't doing that badly against Koreans, but against Korean Terrans, they're having a lot of trouble because 1) the new style that's come up in recent weeks and 2) there are very few foreigner Terrans of caliber to train against.
In the other match-ups, ToD 4-2'd Alicia in Anaheim. Sen 3-0'd July, 4-0'd (or 4-1'd, can't recall which it is) Zenio, and 2-3'd MC in NASL. Won't mention Huk because he's "Korea trained," but Naniwa beat MC in Homestory Cup, and Qxc, after a short stay in Korea, beat MVP as well as a number of IM "B teamers" in the GSTL.
The gap may or may not be getting larger, but the sample size is still too small to tell, especially given the overwhelming Terran bias in MLG in terms of invitees. Note how all those games are mirror matchups of ZvZ and PvP, where luck plays a very large factor. Oftentimes you have coinflips where mechanics make a lot less of a difference than in other matchups, especially when it comes to ZvZ. Naniwa beat MC when he was sick. QXC got REALLY lucky against MVP who didn't take him seriously enough to get ANY anti-air. I'm also pretty sure MVP didn't expect to play considering how much the IM team was looking down on FXO. I'm pretty sure if MVP played QXC at MLG he would've rolled him.
Luck works both ways; it doesn't generally let you 3-0 or 4-0 someone. Those must've been some monstrous coin flips if it was just that.
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Sen or Dimaga...........I cant pick.......fuck
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On August 04 2011 20:30 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:10 Pirat6662001 wrote:On August 04 2011 20:05 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 19:43 bgx wrote:On August 04 2011 19:25 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 19:16 bgx wrote:On August 04 2011 19:08 Jakkerr wrote:On August 04 2011 19:04 hewley wrote:On August 04 2011 19:00 Jakkerr wrote:On August 04 2011 18:58 Swagasaurus wrote:
[quote]
This is one of the most ignorant posts I've ever seen on TL. Please don't post when you don't know what you're talking about. Ah, that's why a lot of progamers are getting demotivated to even go to LANS. I have allready heard on multiple streams from the best players in the world: 'Why bother to go to that tourney, theres like 5 koreans coming' yeah why bother practicing, why can't they just hand us our checks and prizes see what I did there... Ur missing the point though, I don't say they should do that at all. But at the moment it just feels like people from a division lower are competing vs people they are never gonna beat in this situation anyway, mostly because for 90% of those people it's simply not possible to practice 10-12 hours a day since they need to make a living too. I don't think the foreign scene will get any better from getting stomped by koreans on every occasion. oh stop it for all of them its a job, they still get paid, they still win online cups, if they want to get bigger piece of pie they need to step up their game and win vs decent opponents, the difference is NOT that big, and top foreigners already proved it by taking games/series, its just their dedication limiting them, its funny because it shouldnt be the case when it is their freaking job to be the best its not about their mood to compete with koreans if we isolate foreigner tournaments from Korea the difference will be even bigger and every international tournament gonna get stomped (see BW) The mentality that the difference is not that big was valid during Beta and has slowly been disproved as time goes on. After MLG just had top 6 Koreans and a number 7 Korean trained foreigner, you really can't say the gap isn't THAT big. Also if you look at a lot of the games that foreigners took off of Koreans at recent tournaments, they are mostly cause of luck. For example: 1. Sjow took a game off of July by transitioning to dual port banshee after getting banneling busted and taking heavy damage 2. Losira losing a game to Incontrol playing with only a mouse. 3. MMA losing a game to Drewbie when it was lagging really hard. And if you want to take into consideration online play, Koreans still roll foreigners WITH lag. The players you mentioned arent even the top3 in their own countries, of course it were flukes, i meant that there are players much better who are underperforming. What we want now is example of foreigners beating koreans. Isolation means insta-defeat. At least put up a fight. Of course you can see the results and see that Koreans are far cry above foreigners but when you see the games, its not that scary as you portray. I only mentioned those examples because they were some of the few times foreigners took games off of the Koreans. In particular, I used the prior examples because results aren't everything; even though the foreigners won the game, it was due to outside factors, or luck. If you only want to look at Top 3 players, then the reality becomes even more grim. 1. Losira and MMA both 2-0 Naniwa 2. Boxer 2-0s Idra, Zenio 4-0 against Idra. 3. MVP 2-0s Select 4. Ret loses to MMA 2-0 5. KiwiKaki losing to Ganzi 2-0 If Top Foreigners can't even beat mediocre Koreans like Boxer, Ganzi, Zenio, or even Moon, how can you say the gap isn't huge. The closest thing to a competitive game you have is Thorzain vs MC (4-2 in favor of MC) and ever since after MLG Columbus, Thorzain hasn't accomplished anything. White-Ra has been doing quite well vs mc. lost 4-3 in dreamhack for example Thats not a recent result, the gap is a lot bigger now. Also Whitera got quite lucky against MC, like managing to sneak that probe into MC's base in front of his army.
Dude, what are you trying to argue here? "the gap is a lot bigger now"? What does that even mean? Be a little more specific. It all depends on the foreigners you are talking about, there a huge differences in foreigners. Using them all under one term is just wrong and unfair. If you don't recognize this, you have a problem.
There are definetly some foreigners who can keep up with the koreans, but most can not, they are still the exception. That much should be obvious for everyone and there are good examples for that.
What more is there to discuss?
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On August 04 2011 20:14 Fyzar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:13 Velr wrote:
Darkforce vs Alicia(?) at NASL finals.
Sen vs i don't remember at NASL finals.
Yes, Koreans are better, no they are not invulnerable gods. Thats basically how it was since SC2 1.0... Darkforce vs aLive Sen vs July and almost vs MC.
The Darkforce vs Alive game was so bad that everyone was wondering just how out of place both those players were at the NASL finals. Alive's play that day was definitely not indicative of overall skill.
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On August 04 2011 20:34 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:32 Nevarix wrote:On August 04 2011 20:32 Lobo2me wrote:On August 04 2011 20:29 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 20:11 m0ck wrote:On August 04 2011 20:05 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 19:43 bgx wrote:On August 04 2011 19:25 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 19:16 bgx wrote:On August 04 2011 19:08 Jakkerr wrote:
[quote]
Ur missing the point though, I don't say they should do that at all.
But at the moment it just feels like people from a division lower are competing vs people they are never gonna beat in this situation anyway, mostly because for 90% of those people it's simply not possible to practice 10-12 hours a day since they need to make a living too.
I don't think the foreign scene will get any better from getting stomped by koreans on every occasion. oh stop it for all of them its a job, they still get paid, they still win online cups, if they want to get bigger piece of pie they need to step up their game and win vs decent opponents, the difference is NOT that big, and top foreigners already proved it by taking games/series, its just their dedication limiting them, its funny because it shouldnt be the case when it is their freaking job to be the best its not about their mood to compete with koreans if we isolate foreigner tournaments from Korea the difference will be even bigger and every international tournament gonna get stomped (see BW) The mentality that the difference is not that big was valid during Beta and has slowly been disproved as time goes on. After MLG just had top 6 Koreans and a number 7 Korean trained foreigner, you really can't say the gap isn't THAT big. Also if you look at a lot of the games that foreigners took off of Koreans at recent tournaments, they are mostly cause of luck. For example: 1. Sjow took a game off of July by transitioning to dual port banshee after getting banneling busted and taking heavy damage 2. Losira losing a game to Incontrol playing with only a mouse. 3. MMA losing a game to Drewbie when it was lagging really hard. And if you want to take into consideration online play, Koreans still roll foreigners WITH lag. The players you mentioned arent even the top3 in their own countries, of course it were flukes, i meant that there are players much better who are underperforming. What we want now is example of foreigners beating koreans. Isolation means insta-defeat. At least put up a fight. Of course you can see the results and see that Koreans are far cry above foreigners but when you see the games, its not that scary as you portray. I only mentioned those examples because they were some of the few times foreigners took games off of the Koreans. In particular, I used the prior examples because results aren't everything; even though the foreigners won the game, it was due to outside factors, or luck. If you only want to look at Top 3 players, then the reality becomes even more grim. 1. Losira and MMA both 2-0 Naniwa 2. Boxer 2-0s Idra, Zenio 4-0 against Idra. 3. MVP 2-0s Select 4. Ret loses to MMA 2-0 5. KiwiKaki losing to Ganzi 2-0 If Top Foreigners can't even beat mediocre Koreans like Boxer, Ganzi, Zenio, or even Moon, how can you say the gap isn't huge. The closest thing to a competitive game you have is Thorzain vs MC (4-2 in favor of MC) and ever since after MLG Columbus, Thorzain hasn't accomplished anything. Naniwa beat MC at homestory-cup MC was sick....another one of the "outside" factors i was mentioning. Also MC has to deal with Jet Lag, whereas Naniwa does not. Did MC go back to Korea between Dreamhack Summer and HSC3? If he didn't, jet lag didn't play a factor since he had been on the same time zone for almost a week. He went straight from Sweden to Germany. If thats true i retract my jet lag statement, but the fact remains that he was still sick enough to get body aches- as mentioned in interviews.
So all the games he won besides the one against Naniwa.. he wasn't sick then?
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On August 04 2011 20:36 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:14 Fyzar wrote:On August 04 2011 20:13 Velr wrote:
Darkforce vs Alicia(?) at NASL finals.
Sen vs i don't remember at NASL finals.
Yes, Koreans are better, no they are not invulnerable gods. Thats basically how it was since SC2 1.0... Darkforce vs aLive Sen vs July and almost vs MC. The Darkforce vs Alive game was so bad that everyone was wondering just how out of place both those players were at the NASL finals. Alive's play that day was definitely not indicative of overall skill.
You're just digging yourself into a hole bud.
On another note, Dimaga smashing faces.
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the 1080p stream quali with TB and d'apollo is pretty sick O_O just realized that because i watch gstl but wow, the only thing I miss is crowd interaction or crowd ing eneral but i guess it's bc it's thursday?
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On August 04 2011 20:36 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:14 Fyzar wrote:On August 04 2011 20:13 Velr wrote:
Darkforce vs Alicia(?) at NASL finals.
Sen vs i don't remember at NASL finals.
Yes, Koreans are better, no they are not invulnerable gods. Thats basically how it was since SC2 1.0... Darkforce vs aLive Sen vs July and almost vs MC. The Darkforce vs Alive game was so bad that everyone was wondering just how out of place both those players were at the NASL finals. Alive's play that day was definitely not indicative of overall skill.
Piece of advice: stop making excuses whenever Korean players lose. Even if you think it's a good excuse, the amount of excuses you're making - ie for every single loss - makes you sound biased and unreasonable. This sort of rhetoric isn't likely to convince people.
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On August 04 2011 20:36 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:33 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 20:18 Azarkon wrote:
Foreigners aren't doing that badly against Koreans, but against Korean Terrans, they're having a lot of trouble because 1) the new style that's come up in recent weeks and 2) there are very few foreigner Terrans of caliber to train against.
In the other match-ups, ToD 4-2'd Alicia in Anaheim. Sen 3-0'd July, 4-0'd (or 4-1'd, can't recall which it is) Zenio, and 2-3'd MC in NASL. Won't mention Huk because he's "Korea trained," but Naniwa beat MC in Homestory Cup, and Qxc, after a short stay in Korea, beat MVP as well as a number of IM "B teamers" in the GSTL.
The gap may or may not be getting larger, but the sample size is still too small to tell, especially given the overwhelming Terran bias in MLG in terms of invitees. Note how all those games are mirror matchups of ZvZ and PvP, where luck plays a very large factor. Oftentimes you have coinflips where mechanics make a lot less of a difference than in other matchups, especially when it comes to ZvZ. Naniwa beat MC when he was sick. QXC got REALLY lucky against MVP who didn't take him seriously enough to get ANY anti-air. I'm also pretty sure MVP didn't expect to play considering how much the IM team was looking down on FXO. I'm pretty sure if MVP played QXC at MLG he would've rolled him. Luck works both ways; it doesn't generally let you 3-0 or 4-0 someone. Those must've been some monstrous coin flips if it was just that.
For starters, Sen vs Zenio was a 2-1 not a 4-1 as the poster falsely stated. 2-1 is a result that can be easily due to luck. Also Sen 3-1ed July (not 3-0), and if you watched the games they could have gone anyway, especially when it came to the really odd base trade scenarios.
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We need a mod to stop the damn korea debate, its completely off-topic. -,-
DIMAGA bossing lowely atm, pretty one-sided.
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On August 04 2011 20:39 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:36 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 20:14 Fyzar wrote:On August 04 2011 20:13 Velr wrote:
Darkforce vs Alicia(?) at NASL finals.
Sen vs i don't remember at NASL finals.
Yes, Koreans are better, no they are not invulnerable gods. Thats basically how it was since SC2 1.0... Darkforce vs aLive Sen vs July and almost vs MC. The Darkforce vs Alive game was so bad that everyone was wondering just how out of place both those players were at the NASL finals. Alive's play that day was definitely not indicative of overall skill. Piece of advice: stop making excuses whenever Korean players lose. Even if you think it's a good excuse, the amount of excuses you're making - ie for every single loss - makes you sound biased and unreasonable. This sort of rhetoric isn't likely to convince people.
Yet, most of the excuses I made are valid. There's no bias in MC being sick, or Losira having to play with only his mouse. Facts are facts.
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C'mon, stop the korea vs the rest disussion. It's mainly an european event with a lot of great players. Not every tournament has to be filled with 10 koreans to be good. And I think it's nice to see "new" faces and maybe upcoming players.
So have fun with this great tournament or stop watching!
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On August 04 2011 20:38 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:34 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 20:32 Nevarix wrote:On August 04 2011 20:32 Lobo2me wrote:On August 04 2011 20:29 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 20:11 m0ck wrote:On August 04 2011 20:05 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 19:43 bgx wrote:On August 04 2011 19:25 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 19:16 bgx wrote:
[quote]
oh stop it
for all of them its a job, they still get paid, they still win online cups, if they want to get bigger piece of pie they need to step up their game and win vs decent opponents, the difference is NOT that big, and top foreigners already proved it by taking games/series, its just their dedication limiting them, its funny because it shouldnt be the case when it is their freaking job to be the best its not about their mood to compete with koreans
if we isolate foreigner tournaments from Korea the difference will be even bigger and every international tournament gonna get stomped (see BW)
The mentality that the difference is not that big was valid during Beta and has slowly been disproved as time goes on. After MLG just had top 6 Koreans and a number 7 Korean trained foreigner, you really can't say the gap isn't THAT big. Also if you look at a lot of the games that foreigners took off of Koreans at recent tournaments, they are mostly cause of luck. For example: 1. Sjow took a game off of July by transitioning to dual port banshee after getting banneling busted and taking heavy damage 2. Losira losing a game to Incontrol playing with only a mouse. 3. MMA losing a game to Drewbie when it was lagging really hard. And if you want to take into consideration online play, Koreans still roll foreigners WITH lag. The players you mentioned arent even the top3 in their own countries, of course it were flukes, i meant that there are players much better who are underperforming. What we want now is example of foreigners beating koreans. Isolation means insta-defeat. At least put up a fight. Of course you can see the results and see that Koreans are far cry above foreigners but when you see the games, its not that scary as you portray. I only mentioned those examples because they were some of the few times foreigners took games off of the Koreans. In particular, I used the prior examples because results aren't everything; even though the foreigners won the game, it was due to outside factors, or luck. If you only want to look at Top 3 players, then the reality becomes even more grim. 1. Losira and MMA both 2-0 Naniwa 2. Boxer 2-0s Idra, Zenio 4-0 against Idra. 3. MVP 2-0s Select 4. Ret loses to MMA 2-0 5. KiwiKaki losing to Ganzi 2-0 If Top Foreigners can't even beat mediocre Koreans like Boxer, Ganzi, Zenio, or even Moon, how can you say the gap isn't huge. The closest thing to a competitive game you have is Thorzain vs MC (4-2 in favor of MC) and ever since after MLG Columbus, Thorzain hasn't accomplished anything. Naniwa beat MC at homestory-cup MC was sick....another one of the "outside" factors i was mentioning. Also MC has to deal with Jet Lag, whereas Naniwa does not. Did MC go back to Korea between Dreamhack Summer and HSC3? If he didn't, jet lag didn't play a factor since he had been on the same time zone for almost a week. He went straight from Sweden to Germany. If thats true i retract my jet lag statement, but the fact remains that he was still sick enough to get body aches- as mentioned in interviews. So all the games he won besides the one against Naniwa.. he wasn't sick then?
I don't quite understand your question..could you clarify?
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On August 04 2011 20:40 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:36 Azarkon wrote:On August 04 2011 20:33 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 20:18 Azarkon wrote:
Foreigners aren't doing that badly against Koreans, but against Korean Terrans, they're having a lot of trouble because 1) the new style that's come up in recent weeks and 2) there are very few foreigner Terrans of caliber to train against.
In the other match-ups, ToD 4-2'd Alicia in Anaheim. Sen 3-0'd July, 4-0'd (or 4-1'd, can't recall which it is) Zenio, and 2-3'd MC in NASL. Won't mention Huk because he's "Korea trained," but Naniwa beat MC in Homestory Cup, and Qxc, after a short stay in Korea, beat MVP as well as a number of IM "B teamers" in the GSTL.
The gap may or may not be getting larger, but the sample size is still too small to tell, especially given the overwhelming Terran bias in MLG in terms of invitees. Note how all those games are mirror matchups of ZvZ and PvP, where luck plays a very large factor. Oftentimes you have coinflips where mechanics make a lot less of a difference than in other matchups, especially when it comes to ZvZ. Naniwa beat MC when he was sick. QXC got REALLY lucky against MVP who didn't take him seriously enough to get ANY anti-air. I'm also pretty sure MVP didn't expect to play considering how much the IM team was looking down on FXO. I'm pretty sure if MVP played QXC at MLG he would've rolled him. Luck works both ways; it doesn't generally let you 3-0 or 4-0 someone. Those must've been some monstrous coin flips if it was just that. For starters, Sen vs Zenio was a 2-1 not a 4-1 as the poster falsely stated. 2-1 is a result that can be easily due to luck. Also Sen 3-1ed July (not 3-0), and if you watched the games they could have gone anyway, especially when it came to the really odd base trade scenarios.
Sen 2-0'd Zenio in group play as well.
And you failed to mention that he 2-3'd MC. If you're going to argue that way, then one might just as well argue that Sen vs. MC could've gone either way, as well, and that was with MC in top condition.
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Russian Federation949 Posts
Dimaga is 6-0, but against average opponents. Still, will we see his first title?
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Soo Totalbiscuit isn't just a voice anymore :0 So weird to actually see the guy behind the voice.
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We don't get to see Dimaga enough. I would like to see him flown out to MLG/other events more often.
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On August 04 2011 20:39 AsnSensation wrote:
the 1080p stream quali with TB and d'apollo is pretty sick O_O just realized that because i watch gstl but wow, the only thing I miss is crowd interaction or crowd ing eneral but i guess it's bc it's thursday?
Not only is it still early on Thursday, but the play area they have is actually quite small (but considerably better than the winter event). I expect a lot more interaction tomorrow if/when the main stage is involved (not sure how much, but hopefully a lot more than just finals). It is a HUGE lan event and there is a LOT of other things going on.
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Khaldors casting is so great. ♥ it :D
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EPT
