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On April 24 2011 13:09 PanzerKing wrote:
MC's illusions completely worked against him. His hallucinated Immortals actually blocked his zealots from engaging the Thors. Watch the replay - you'll see them trickle in one or two at a time instead of all being able to engage at once. It was a gimmicky play that completely underestimated Thorzain's intelligence and micro capability, and it totally backfired on MC.
LOL Zealots don't do anything to a upgraded thor. 50 hits! All while one shotting two zealots at a time with 8 Thor.
Here is math from the man himself.
On April 11 2011 01:41 Thorzain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 01:30 Rabiator wrote:
Zealot damage: 8*2 = 16 damage ->
27 hits from a Zealot to kill a Thor without any upgrade difference
29 hits with 1 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
31 hits with 2 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
34 hits with 3 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
You can't count it as 8*2 - armor = damage. You must count it as (8-armor)*2 = damage. So armor upgrades are even better against zealots than what you described. 29 34 40 50. If the toss goes zealot heavy and without attack upgrades, Thor's health is effectively 552 if I upgraded +2 armor as I did vs Tyler.
Every build is gimmicky vs mass upgraded thor. Try it yourself. I have. 30 VR schooled, 15 real immortals schooled. 40 Zealots schooled. etc.
Edit: must take the all gimmicky back after playing some more all night with friend in customs. There is one unit who destroys mass Thor. Mass carrier does the trick as long as you protect carriers from vikings w/ stalkers & phoenix. God Blizzard is such a genius - two little used units actually have a use months later we are are finding... ThorZain found one and now carriers has a use. The massive size of carrier prevents splash like VR gets splashed and destroyed quickly and carrier is heavily armored so Thor gets no air armored attack bonus and it stays at a low 9. Still I'm disappointed the unit Blizz says counters them, immortals, just gets wrecked by 250mm cannon. Oh well...
So MC's real flaws were in addition to not putting a gate rush together when he saw how vulnerable ThorZain was at beginning was not slapping down 4 stargates when he saw a couple Thors. Granted I knew the game plan when playing customs before going in but GW/robo units is a total jokie vs mass Thor.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On April 24 2011 08:15 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 08:12 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 24 2011 08:10 Sein wrote:On April 24 2011 07:51 TheBanana wrote:On April 24 2011 07:41 Orpheusz wrote:On April 24 2011 07:41 SEANSYE wrote:
I guarantee MC would win if this wasn't over the battle.net. With that said, ThorZain was awesome and fantastic job to him. Ok, but it was. There's no point arguing who would win in a LAN setting. They both played in a LAN setting though, just not the same one.  Thorzain in Norway at The Gathering and MC in Denmark. Did they ever confirm this one? All I remember Chill saying was "Oh, I think MC is in Denmark right now for a tournament, which must mean that this series was played while MC is staying in Denmark." Not exactly the best assumption to make considering MC was in Korea playing in GSL just a few days ago. Chill specifically said that MC was in EU so lag was not an issue and people couldn't blame that if MC lost. Yeah I remember hearing the same thing toward the beginning of today's casts, but what I thought he said was "I believe MC is in Denmark for a [tournament I can't remember the name of] right now. That means both players were playing on the European server and you can't bring up the latency issue anymore". Wasn't it? It sounded like he was just making an assumption there considering they are casting from replays. That is, unless they mentioned it again and confirmed it sometime during when the MC/Thorzain series was being casted.
I don't think it matters that much whether this series was played EU to EU or not, but I understand that we have a responsibility to inform the audience because some people very much want to know and can't just ignore the issue, no matter how great the games were. Chill and Artosis stated several times that it was played on EU, and we even posted in this thread that it was played on EU, yet here we are, still discussing it because the casters "might be making assumptions."
I hate having to push the server/lag issue onto the forefront of everything, but it appears that even in the wake of such a great series people still have this on their mind. It's too bad fans can't just take the games as they are, but I guess we will just have to deal with it.
Yes, it was played on EU, both players from EU. This is a fact.
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TSL does it again. Sen/Boxer last week was one of the best series ever in SC2, but MC/Thorzain topped it. INSANE games. INSANE play by both players. Game 4 especially was INCREDIBLE. I don't know what to do but say OMFG. Amazing.
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MC is good but he isn't unbeatable. There's no need to defend his loss. Lag is only a legitimate excuse when a 1 player is local and the other overseas. This is actually a nice lesson to MC, don't be so arrogant and underestimate opponents.
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Thors are over powered = ( How can MC lose! Why MC WHY!!?? Game 4 and 5 were great but... = (
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I just shat myself. boxer all the way, since no non-korean can beat him, he is now, unbeatable
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On April 24 2011 14:25 SilverforceX wrote:
MC is good but he isn't unbeatable. There's no need to defend his loss. Lag is only a legitimate excuse when a 1 player is local and the other overseas. This is actually a nice lesson to MC, don't be so arrogant and underestimate opponents.
His arrogance I think helps him. It's just another form of confidence i.e. positive thought. I think he's relatively insecure and that's his way of getting head right for competition. But you're right though no excuses except he was outplayed in G1,2 & 5.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
Edit: Destroyed post, since I can't use TLPD link..
Point is, MC is Iron from MBCgame.... he barely left dreamleague with his tail intact. A long time to go before we see the FlasH's / Jaedong's
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Lose, MC, Lose! I will never be able to forgive MC for his finals against July. 10 years from now I'll hold it against him
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I was a bit of a skeptic till now. Well done thorzain you earned my respect and i'll cheer for you from now on ^^!
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Down with MC! Praise be to Thor!
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so funny seeing all the MC hate. even adults can be drawn into primal emotions...
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MC should take some time off from his schedule and revamp his PvT. His style is slowly being figured out. It's great that he is joining all these various tourneys, but it's obvious that his game is being stagnant instead of evolving. Soon, he will be passed by other upcoming players even in the GSL like Alicia.
Thorzain had a very good strategy that he knew it would work against MC's style, while MC didn't seem to know exactly how to play Thorzain from the start. Many times MC was reacting to Thorzain's build and unit composition. MC took mostly the safest build order. Even in the game where he could have done a lot of damage with VRs, he only chose to harrass with one (he made 4 and three VRs were just sitting around). That's really a big disadvantage that MC has to play with. People know MC and his playstyle, but MC is playing blind. I have a feeling that if Thorzain is to meet MC again in future, it will be a different story.
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I just have a question, has anyone wondered how much it matters that some of these players are simultaneously participating in numerous tournaments. I mean looked at MC the past few weeks, with TSL, NASL, Dreamhack, GSL, GSL World Championships, and Copenhagen. Thats a LOT to prepare for. Remember, being the "best" at this game isn't simply dominating everyone but executing strategies tailored for each player. IMO, it's tough to prepare for so many people and I think soon we may see players start backing out from some tournaments due to lack of preparation time.
Not to take anything away from Thorzain, but think, he only had TSL to prep for and maybe one or two online tourneys or something.
Edit: forgot to include that Star Wars China tournament as well. MC needs to take a break from all the travelling and just focus on Korea for a while and work out some new stuff like someone mentioned. He's going into all of these tourneys with the same strats now instead of tailored builds I feel.
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MC's won like 3 tournaments in last month. You can't win them all...especially in SC2 as volatile as it is.
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Not to take anything away from MC. He is a great player. But damn, am I looking forward to a finals that does NOT feature MC in it! ThorZaIN must go into the RO4 with a great deal of confidence right now...
Such a shame AdelScott was beaten out, he plays some of the most exciting PvT I've seen. But Kas is just an amazing player, cant wait to see how ThorZaIN will prepare for him in the round of 4. I predict Kas taking the series down 4-2.
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For my part, thanks TL, MC, and Thorzain for a great series. I'm going to have to steal Thorzain's builds (well, try to, I=not disciplined)
He just seems so solid, perhaps a weakness is to get ahead of him economically because he will make turrets and such if he sniffs out DTs? I felt MC's DTs were very ineffective in game 1. Yea, they are annoying to deal with, but ultimately many died and that's less army later. And there's also the obvious: upgrades. As an MC fan, I'm frustrated at the outcome, but there's no reason I won't cheer for Thorzain now--he's earned it. Boxer's the only person for whom I'd cheer against Thorzain at this point
I just watched the vods and LOL @ Artosis calling + Show Spoiler +
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United States13896 Posts
On April 24 2011 15:53 ct2299 wrote:
I just have a question, has anyone wondered how much it matters that some of these players are simultaneously participating in numerous tournaments. I mean looked at MC the past few weeks, with TSL, NASL, Dreamhack, GSL, GSL World Championships, and Copenhagen. Thats a LOT to prepare for. Remember, being the "best" at this game isn't simply dominating everyone but executing strategies tailored for each player. IMO, it's tough to prepare for so many people and I think soon we may see players start backing out from some tournaments due to lack of preparation time.
Not to take anything away from Thorzain, but think, he only had TSL to prep for and maybe one or two online tourneys or something.
Well its difficult for MC to really prepare for Dreamhack and the Copenhagen games as they all played out in a matter of days and he had no notice of who he was playing. For the other tournaments though you have a point, outside of traveling, days that are spent mostly playing in events in Sweden and Denmark, and jet lag, I'm sure it is difficult for MC to prepare as thoroughly as he may have for past GSLs when that was all he was playing in. Still, there were times in these games were both players looked at the absolute peak of their games. Looking at the game on Tal'Darim Altar both guys were all over the map, and MC's micro looked spot on, never missing a beat.
I'm sure he had less practice as he had to delegate his time between events but MC still looked like the top notch Protoss that he is and ThorZaIN still bested him. Should MC back out of events? I don't know he still won how much at Dreamhack and the Copenhagen games combined - like $20,000+ ? He can't win them all but he's taken away a pretty penny from the sum of these tournaments lately.
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THOR-FUKING-ZAIN!! just show my love for my new favorite terran. I made this.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qpJPP.jpg)
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EPT
