Hey everyone, been having a lot of trouble as Terran against Protoss. The one build I have been having trouble against regardless of mech/bio, or goin macro builds or aggresive openers is the 10gate/10gas MsC Rush from protoss. It hits when you have like 4-5 marines with any opener other than a blind 2 rax before expand. And I lose every time, even if I pull scvs, once the marines are dead the MsC just camps + protoss reinforcements.
Rough Build Order Outline:
- 9 Pylon - 10 gate - 10 gas
- 3 chronos are used, 1 on the zeatlot then the stalker and MsC are made at the same time and chronoed at the same time.
- MsC+Stalker finish at exactly 3:48
- Attack occurs between 4:36 and 4:45 on Yeonsu, + there is exactly 1 time warp available on Yeonsu when the MsC arrives
1 rax can never produce enough marines, it seems like 2 rax is needed, but you have to build them blindly. There must be another way
/// Edit: Damn, forgot to put in the [H] in the Title, but I can't edit it?
you should be scouting after you take your gas for reaper expo. When you scout this, build a bunker and make sure it gets up with scvs. don't fall for the msc into main pulling your marines out of bunker so they can just walk by. you can repair scvs until 3 marines are out and something is in the bunker. Personally I think the reactor before reaper is better because you have two reapers to snipe the zealot and your first two marines are not delayed. Just scout, make sure your units are not delayed and you will be holding this in no time.
On January 25 2014 16:17 Doc Brawler wrote: you should be scouting after you take your gas for reaper expo. When you scout this, build a bunker and make sure it gets up with scvs. don't fall for the msc into main pulling your marines out of bunker so they can just walk by. you can repair scvs until 3 marines are out and something is in the bunker. Personally I think the reactor before reaper is better because you have two reapers to snipe the zealot and your first two marines are not delayed. Just scout, make sure your units are not delayed and you will be holding this in no time.
Reactoring the rax right after completion and doing double reaper? How is this gonna work vs Msc, Stalker and Zealot. U got no anti air and so low dmg output. Have u defended this? Or are u theory crafting?
I die against that too regularly. It seems very strong on Habitation Station because the rush distance is very short. I usually go reaper expand and if you don't get the bunker up your screwed.
So here's my conclusion after analysing my last loss against this with a toss. 1.) build 2 depots at the ramp but don't wall off 2.) scout with your 14th scv 3.) immediately finish bunker to wall off 4.) micro workers to not die at wall off if you don't have any marines in it yet
The best build against this would be 15 gas expand no doubt. You should 4 marines right? With reaper expand it's very easy to lose against this. I advise to always go 12 rax 12 gas with reaper expand and not 13 gas because it will give you an earlier reactor.
Hope this helps and if you are able to hold this please post your replay here. It is giving me a hard time too.
On January 25 2014 16:17 Doc Brawler wrote: you should be scouting after you take your gas for reaper expo. When you scout this, build a bunker and make sure it gets up with scvs. don't fall for the msc into main pulling your marines out of bunker so they can just walk by. you can repair scvs until 3 marines are out and something is in the bunker. Personally I think the reactor before reaper is better because you have two reapers to snipe the zealot and your first two marines are not delayed. Just scout, make sure your units are not delayed and you will be holding this in no time.
Double reaper is a good idea because if you micro properly you can either force the stalker to go back or deal huge eco damage. Without support MC can be dealt with by pure scv autorepair while you are waiting for marines considering how much eco damage he took to get the rush out.
There is no need to go double reaper to specifically hold this opener. A 15 scout on 2 player maps is also enough. When the scout arrives at the protoss natural you'll find the zealot at the ramp area or slightly beneath it, depending on map, heading for your base. Upon seeing this and also confirming the 1 gas and chrono gateway/nexus msc setup, instantly cancel low ground CC and start bunker at the top of ramp and restart the CC on the high ground. The reactor should also be started as soon as possible after the reaper.
Pulling SCVs to hinder him from running past your bunker can be helpful if he tries that.
This is all assuming a standard 12 rax, 12 gas -> reaper -> reactor build.
On January 25 2014 16:17 Doc Brawler wrote: you should be scouting after you take your gas for reaper expo. When you scout this, build a bunker and make sure it gets up with scvs. don't fall for the msc into main pulling your marines out of bunker so they can just walk by. you can repair scvs until 3 marines are out and something is in the bunker. Personally I think the reactor before reaper is better because you have two reapers to snipe the zealot and your first two marines are not delayed. Just scout, make sure your units are not delayed and you will be holding this in no time.
Reactoring the rax right after completion and doing double reaper? How is this gonna work vs Msc, Stalker and Zealot. U got no anti air and so low dmg output. Have u defended this? Or are u theory crafting?
u have even more units than reactor after reaper because 1 reaper + reactor is the same build time as reactor + 2 reaper. with the additional dps you can harass his zealot or go send the additional reaper to harass his mineral line if you have enough multitask
On January 25 2014 19:36 gillon wrote: There is no need to go double reaper to specifically hold this opener. A 15 scout on 2 player maps is also enough. When the scout arrives at the protoss natural you'll find the zealot at the ramp area or slightly beneath it, depending on map, heading for your base. Upon seeing this and also confirming the 1 gas and chrono gateway/nexus msc setup, instantly cancel low ground CC and start bunker at the top of ramp and restart the CC on the high ground. The reactor should also be started as soon as possible after the reaper.
Pulling SCVs to hinder him from running past your bunker can be helpful if he tries that. This is all assuming a standard 12 rax, 12 gas -> reaper -> reactor build.
This is the correct response with 1 reaper into reactor. For CC first 15 rax / 16 rax this is how you do it:
If you want to be safe in this match up you always scout on 15, this will allow you to react to this build, proxy gate and proxy stargate in time to respond correctly. After scouting this with CC first you build a bunker on low ground with the SCV that got done building the CC, you should also transfer about 7 SCVs to the natural. You will have to delay the usual 3rd rax because you'll lose minerals doing all these things. When his zealot + stalker arrives you should have 3 marines in the bunker, use the SCVs at the natural to block him from running by easily. You should rally the 3rd and 4th marine into your main, since upon seeing the bunker most protoss will go into your main with the MSC, try to bait your marines away from the front, and then run by. Don't fight the MSC until you have 3 marines !
The SCV scout should be hidden on the map after you scouted the build. Then send in for a rescout at around ~ 5 min, since his units is out on the map you can usually scout everything he's doing.
Here's what you do with Reaper FE: You send 13th SCV to scout, shout arrive no later than 3:10 or so, keep an eye on his chrono and Gateway. If Zealot spawns around 3:15 you know aggression is coming. Once you see chrono on MSC / Gateway you'll know for sure. Anyway, upon seeing the early zealot or chrono gateway you simply put a bunker on top of your ramp (before CC to be safe, don't know perfect timing yet), and put CC on high ground. 13th SCV scout allows you to know if he plans to go for aggression way before you place CC, so you'll never have to cancel.
Next thing to do is to try catching his zealot with your reaper and damage him. Most Protoss will send the first rushed zealot straight to your base. Make sure not to miss it though, if you feel you missed it with your reaper retreat ASAP, they might have taken non standard path.
From here you basicly wanna make sure not to miss a single marine (you still go reaper>reactor). Use SCV's to fight / block if he tries to block your ramp.
The 13th SCV scout is preference, imo it helps a lot especially by scouting proxy gateway earlier and giving more respond time to get defence up.
Thanks for all the replies, very helpful information. I will definitely go for the quick bunker. I think the reason the bunker never occurred to me, is because it delays other buildings,CC or tech, or going for a mine drop. So I can't punish protoss for the aggression.
However some advice that I'm reading might not work, such as reaper into reactor, or 15scv scout. Interesting facts on Map Yeonsu: - 14scv scout, when it reaches the opponents minerals, Cybernetics core is done and the first zealot spawns 3 seconds before the Cybernetics Core finishes.
- I tested going 12 rax/12 gas straight into reactor with no reaper or marines, and you will only have a max of 4 marines before protoss attacks you with zealot/Stalker/MsC. I don't see how its possible to go reaper then into reactor and have 2 marines in time for the protoss attack.
On January 26 2014 12:06 Armada Vega wrote: Thanks for all the replies, very helpful information. I will definitely go for the quick bunker. I think the reason the bunker never occurred to me, is because it delays other buildings,CC or tech, or going for a mine drop. So I can't punish protoss for the aggression.
However some advice that I'm reading might not work, such as reaper into reactor, or 15scv scout. Interesting facts on Map Yeonsu: - 14scv scout, when it reaches the opponents minerals, Cybernetics core is done and the first zealot spawns 3 seconds before the Cybernetics Core finishes.
- I tested going 12 rax/12 gas straight into reactor with no reaper or marines, and you will only have a max of 4 marines before protoss attacks you with zealot/Stalker/MsC. I don't see how its possible to go reaper then into reactor and have 2 marines in time for the protoss attack.
It's about crisis management and not panicking while focusing on what you need to do apparently. You need to stall with SCV and Repair micro until the first 2 Marines come out and get into the Bunker, then continue stalling until the next batch comes out so you can fight the MSC with 3 Marines.
Though I always though a MSC beat 3 Marines and needed 4 Marines to properly deal with?
10 suply 11 gas 12 rax 15 OC 15 reactor 15 suply @100 gas, retire scvs from gas 16 reapers x2 @400 min, cc on the low ground throw 2 more raxes afterwards
Scout at 15. If you see some zealot and CB on gateways and nexus (that is the most important thing, the CBs), throw up a bunker and start pumping marines. In the meanwhile, use your reapers to harass or to snipe the zealot, that is up to you, although i recommend to snipe the zealot, then harass. Keep your first two marines on the bunker and the rest rally them to your main in case of MSC harass. Keep rallying marines on your main's mineral line until you got 5, then rally them to your natural's mineral line. That way you can defend from early oracle harass. ez pz.
EDIT: you can't expect to lose zero scvs against a competent opponent. You will be ahead economically as long as you protect your natural's CC and avoid cancelling it, even if you lose some scvs. Reactor expand is your best opener against toss, because you will have better marine production, but if you wanna take some risks, go ahead and open up with 14 cc 2 rax. Reaper expand alone (without reactor) is bad as hell, you will have terrible production.
EDIT2: http://drop.sc/371564 An old replay of mine. Technically wasn't a 10 gate, but it's almost the same. I lost in the end, but I defended succesfully against that. Good luck.
10pylon (mineral wise with the 10 gateway it works out 5 minerals more efficent) 10gate 11gas (chrono when 12th probe starts) (3 in gas when complete) 14core -cut probes- 14zealot(chrono) 16pylon 16zealot(chrono) 18msc(chrono) 20stalker(chrono when available) resume probe production, make second stalker before start warp gate etc
best way to hold it is to scout with an scv after gas and throw down a bunker while harassing the first zealot as it comes across the map, build up your units rather than trading, when you have enough, push out.
This should be closed because of the lack of a replay, but since the responses given are pretty good (and the build is fairly straightforward) i'll leave it open. In the future, please add at least one replay for every [H] thread you make.
On January 25 2014 16:17 Doc Brawler wrote: you should be scouting after you take your gas for reaper expo. When you scout this, build a bunker and make sure it gets up with scvs. don't fall for the msc into main pulling your marines out of bunker so they can just walk by. you can repair scvs until 3 marines are out and something is in the bunker. Personally I think the reactor before reaper is better because you have two reapers to snipe the zealot and your first two marines are not delayed. Just scout, make sure your units are not delayed and you will be holding this in no time.
Double reaper is a good idea because if you micro properly you can either force the stalker to go back or deal huge eco damage. Without support MC can be dealt with by pure scv autorepair while you are waiting for marines considering how much eco damage he took to get the rush out.
Its actually better to keep reapers at home. With 2 reapers and 4 marines you WILL kill the zelot, stalker, and most likely the msc. You can still afford to expand on 19 (high ground) then you can make either marines or reapers out of reactor and put on aggression. I tried once to attack with the first two reapers and defend with marines and scvs but you can only get a few probe kills before the second stalker is ready at the protoss base and you will have to pull and loose some scvs. Better to just deal with the rush first and focus on killing msc. This forces more stalkers and even more gates or else a 6 marine poke with 2 reapers will def kill probes at natural.
On January 26 2014 17:51 Apoteosis wrote: That one's easy.
10 suply 11 gas 12 rax 15 OC 15 reactor 15 suply @100 gas, retire scvs from gas 16 reapers x2 @400 min, cc on the low ground throw 2 more raxes afterwards
Why are you getting gas first? This can be done more efficiently with 12 rax 12 gas perfectly. Reactor is same cost as reaper so its the exact timing of a 12/12 reaper build.
On January 26 2014 17:51 Apoteosis wrote: That one's easy.
10 suply 11 gas 12 rax 15 OC 15 reactor 15 suply @100 gas, retire scvs from gas 16 reapers x2 @400 min, cc on the low ground throw 2 more raxes afterwards
Why are you getting gas first? This can be done more efficiently with 12 rax 12 gas perfectly. Reactor is same cost as reaper so its the exact timing of a 12/12 reaper build.
True, but going for gas first allows you to get your two reapers faster. And you can always adapt your build to go factory next faster. Plus you will retire your scvs from gas faster than rax first, allowing you to get your CC faster. Even more, gas first allows you to go 1-1-1 faster, etc. It's all about adaptation.
If you scout with a reaper it'll get to their base as the zealot/msc is moving out with the stalker to be coming shortly after, so you just build bunker on high ground make some marines and make your CC on high ground too you're fine.
If you scout with scv while making reaper you can do bunker on low ground and just have a couple scvs waiting to repair, there should be ~2 marines in there by the time they make it there. If they run past then you pull scvs and clean up ez pz
On January 28 2014 18:29 Ero-Sennin wrote: If you scout with a reaper it'll get to their base as the zealot/msc is moving out with the stalker to be coming shortly after, so you just build bunker on high ground make some marines and make your CC on high ground too you're fine.
If you scout with scv while making reaper you can do bunker on low ground and just have a couple scvs waiting to repair, there should be ~2 marines in there by the time they make it there. If they run past then you pull scvs and clean up ez pz
Yep. CC on high ground and a bunker on the high ground aswell is key... but to do this you need to scv scout before your reaper(depending on your build ofc) No reason to be greedy because if you hold the pressure and scout again right after for follow up cheeses and stuff you will be fine
On January 28 2014 18:17 Ambre wrote: Scout => ebay block
If he leave his base => reaper will kill probes AND he will not have an expand (auto lose) If he doesn't, you'r safe.
Wouldn't this delay the bunker and marine production? So he loses probes and can make a stalker from the gateway he has at home while buying time with his probes and you just die because you lack any sort of defense?
EPT
