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Um no... They are NOT imba.
The dps of two hellbat drop is as effective as an early 7:30min ish 4gate zealot/sentry warp-in/drop, why do I make that comparison?
Simple, fail to prepare for the drop and to take down the speed-prism, and you can pretty much GG right there.
He'll FF the ramp and can eventually clean up the entire mineral line/ tech structure/ etc, see Day[9] #578 Part 1 of LiquidHero's PvT.
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Every popular game in the world has set pieces, where success is virtually guaranteed if you catch your opponent unawares, and specific defenses designed to counter said set-piece. Both soccer/football and chess have it.
One of the excitements of watching English football is spotting a set-piece being set up and watching if the opponent can defend against it and predicting a set-piece about to be played.
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As I have played more TvTs recently, I've seen some people defending my drops surprisingly well. I used to win nearly every single game, merely by doing the same drop build, but not anymore. It seems like people are getting wind of how to deal with these drops properly.
As I read the replies, I realized that people got various opinions about the hellbat.
So far, my conclusion:
Hellbats aren't unstoppable, but I can't deny the fact how they excel at killing workers and how cost effective they are.
Removing the bio flag would probably change the unit's role too much in the other match ups.
There are ways to shut down the harassment, but incautious player will be punished too hard.
I could try some other openers. The 1 rax expand with fast double gas sounds good.
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On April 27 2013 00:53 SSVnormandy wrote:
Yeah and Lucifron may have break this TvT meta with his allin !
Can you elaborate? What all-in are you speaking of?
Thanks.
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On April 29 2013 03:52 geoIOPS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 00:53 SSVnormandy wrote:
Yeah and Lucifron may have break this TvT meta with his allin ! Can you elaborate? What all-in are you speaking of? Thanks.
Thor drop, watch his games vs Happy in the group stages of WCS EU.
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I do not believe hellbatdrops are to strong.
1. Hotkey your scv's from your main and expo early. If u spot the drop on minimap, u can get them away before drop is comming
2. Build something with armour to defend. I like vikings/mines/tank against hellbatdrops.
3. U can still macro in tvt. Just build the right units in the start of the game, this is hots and not wol. macro still wins u matches.
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Personally, I don't think hellbat drops are imba. With good reaction and prep, you can fend it off with little to no losses. At lower levels, this may be a problem understandably, and even pros can lose games from it occasionally, but its not something that's impossible to deal with.
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I agree Hellbats are an issue. avilo is pretty right that the Bio status shouldn't go with the Hellbats. I don't agree that aggressive concepts like the Blue Flame Hellion were bad. They were bad for Zerg, but for Terran it was fine. I like the fact that the person who can defend and attack better wins. This is also why I don't want the current ZvZ matchup to change (I hate turtling, I feel like it shouldn't belong in the game unless it's difficult to do or played at the lower levels). I also feel like CC first and 1 Rax gasless expand is very dangerous in HotS (sad for me as a person who used them all the time, but also happy for the more aggressive styles coming out). I am completely fine with the idea of mech TvT being standard. What I am not fine with is a single unit being able to decimate the entire mineral line in seconds (Hellbats and Oracles). Hellions at least required a greater commitment and more micro to line up the workers for maximum damage (only problem was effective defensive micro was far too difficult compared to defensive micro against Hellbats).
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Hellbats being biological is the biggest mistake they made in HotS in my opinion. Makes absolutely no sense and is hurting every TvX matchup.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On April 28 2013 03:04 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 19:33 Markwerf wrote:
The problem is just the medivac not the hellbat imo.
It's inevitable if David Kim has any brains that medivac eventually get's a small nerf. If the afterburners become +50% instead of +70%, the cooldown get's longer or anything like that it will be much easier to defend these drops. Afterall the hellbats are only that super effective because they can get dropped into marines/workers too easily. They are too effective for cost right now because they are being healed while in mineral lines. Imagine or liken the current hellbat drop to pre-nerf blue flame hellions being dropped into a mineral line, and then let's imagine those blue flame hellions have 10 SCVS around them repairing them while they are killing your workers (in any match-up). That's essentially what the bio flag does on the hellbat right now. The hellbat is surviving in mineral lines for probably an average of 3-4 more seconds than it should be, and those 3-4 more seconds is equivalent to another 10-15 worker kills or being able to pick it back up and boost back onto workers. Bio flag needs to be removed, this way hellbats don't take some ridiculous WOL-style "make the unit useless nerf" and at the same time it helps mech TvP as well as fixes the core issue.
The issue with removing the bio tag now is it then makes mech worse in pretty much every single situation and nobody will want to play it again.
Hellbat drops are not hard to deal with, if you're not a pro the guy isn't going to be executing them like a pro so you should have very little issue with just running away your workers. All you need to worry about is killing the medivac and you're fine.
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I'm mid masters and I've been opening with Thor drop in TvT. Just now I played 4 TvTs in a row, 3 of my opponents opened with Hellbat drop...easy win for me. Hellbats are easy to kite, so this isn't the only opening that can effectively deal with Hellbat drops.
Also, I don't consider the Thor drop an all-in (as mentioned above), you can either keep dropping Thors or start your CC as your Medivac crosses the map. What I do is build a Siege Tank and a Viking after the Thor/Medivac. The Viking snipes the Medivac so Hellbats can't be healed and Siege Tank+Bunker will help defend the drop (and even defend vs other garbage in case they are not Hellbat dropping).
I don't see why people bitch so much about Hellbats, they are just fine and they are not hard to stop at all in TvT, hell, even in the beta when you could load 4 in a medivac I didn't have much trouble stopping them if I saw it coming, Hellbats can be kited by pretty much any unit and they move slower than workers.
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I've just been promoted to random as masters, and man these hellbats are the bane of my existence.
Marine+Hellion: Cost only mins, can be built from reactor
Marine+Marauder: Can be healed by medivac
Hellion: Has splash
Marauder: Is pretty tough to kill
Hellbat: All of the above
Nerf plz.
Either that or you may as well just give them DT cloak, flying and anti-air attack too cos it's not like they're already the only thing you need to build.
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On May 09 2013 19:44 NDDseer wrote:
I've just been promoted to random as masters, and man these hellbats are the bane of my existence.
Marine+Hellion: Cost only mins, can be built from reactor
Marine+Marauder: Can be healed by medivac
Hellion: Has splash
Marauder: Is pretty tough to kill
Hellbat: All of the above
Nerf plz.
Either that or you may as well just give them DT cloak, flying and anti-air attack too cos it's not like they're already the only thing you need to build.
Looking at this whine post and then reading your signature....it's pretty funny.
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On May 09 2013 19:47 BhostGuster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 19:44 NDDseer wrote:
I've just been promoted to random as masters, and man these hellbats are the bane of my existence.
Marine+Hellion: Cost only mins, can be built from reactor
Marine+Marauder: Can be healed by medivac
Hellion: Has splash
Marauder: Is pretty tough to kill
Hellbat: All of the above
Nerf plz.
Either that or you may as well just give them DT cloak, flying and anti-air attack too cos it's not like they're already the only thing you need to build. Looking at this whine post and then reading your signature....it's pretty funny.
I'm happy to win by dropping hellbats all day, but you get bored of there only be one viable strategy (only countered by a better executed version of the same strategy).
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On May 09 2013 19:57 NDDseer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 19:47 BhostGuster wrote:On May 09 2013 19:44 NDDseer wrote:
I've just been promoted to random as masters, and man these hellbats are the bane of my existence.
Marine+Hellion: Cost only mins, can be built from reactor
Marine+Marauder: Can be healed by medivac
Hellion: Has splash
Marauder: Is pretty tough to kill
Hellbat: All of the above
Nerf plz.
Either that or you may as well just give them DT cloak, flying and anti-air attack too cos it's not like they're already the only thing you need to build. Looking at this whine post and then reading your signature....it's pretty funny. I'm happy to win by dropping hellbats all day, but you get bored of there only be one viable strategy (only countered by a better executed version of the same strategy).
Learn to play, seriously. I'm countering every single hellbat drop with 15 gas CC fact port, hellion + 2 widowmines + marines.
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10 depo 12 rax 14 depo -> cc with constant marines will fend off all reaper play as long as you don't mess up.
And you will have 3 rax production up before the hellbat drop arrives.
The counter with bio is bunker behind the mineral line and early marauders.
If he commits heavily enough you can make 8-9 min 3th before factory.
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On May 09 2013 20:10 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 19:57 NDDseer wrote:On May 09 2013 19:47 BhostGuster wrote:On May 09 2013 19:44 NDDseer wrote:
I've just been promoted to random as masters, and man these hellbats are the bane of my existence.
Marine+Hellion: Cost only mins, can be built from reactor
Marine+Marauder: Can be healed by medivac
Hellion: Has splash
Marauder: Is pretty tough to kill
Hellbat: All of the above
Nerf plz.
Either that or you may as well just give them DT cloak, flying and anti-air attack too cos it's not like they're already the only thing you need to build. Looking at this whine post and then reading your signature....it's pretty funny. I'm happy to win by dropping hellbats all day, but you get bored of there only be one viable strategy (only countered by a better executed version of the same strategy). Learn to play, seriously. I'm countering every single hellbat drop with 15 gas CC fact port, hellion + 2 widowmines + marines.
I agree with him, learn to play.
Start doing hellbat drops and see how quickly the system will pair you with people who can and will counter your hellbat drops.
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EPT
