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Greetings!
I've been a lurker for quite awhile on TL's website. I've enjoyed reading all the guides for SC2 and the Live Streams in between breaks 
I played WoL on the day of release as Terran and decided to really improve my skill in 1v1 for the next couple years.
I failed miserably.
Unable to break out of Silver I found myself at a constant loss. This was obviously before the option to switch regions or play UnRanked matches for the sake of trying out new builds.
One day, a few months ago, I lost a whole MMM BioBall to banelings and festors. I sat, I stared at my computer screen, I contemplated life itself.
After several drinks and a trip to the E.R. to stitch the wound in my hand, I decided to take a deep breath and said "You know what? I'll try Zerg..."
Needless to say since those few months ago I went from Silver and now I just recently got promoted to Platinum. I was Rank 10 but have just kind of slipped to Rank 21 at the moment due to me not having the time to play.
I guess this is where the main question comes in, and it was something I hadn't even thought about until my third loss in a row...
Right now I'm hovering around 51% win in general so I think I'm where most people should be. The issue, however, is that I've only played 70 games this season.
Whenever I'm getting absolutely STOMPED and destroyed it's against an opponent with anywhere from 250-450 games for the season (that's coming to a close.)
I hadn't even put 2 and 2 together until tonight. Now that I'm in Platinum, am I past the point of watching fun TL replays and reading build guides on the forums? Can I no longer be a casual lurker and play a few games a week? Is this where a Starcraft player has to crank it up a notch from "Casual"?
Bear in mind I'm not complaining about this imba or that imba, I'm just needing to know if 35-70 games per season ain't gonna cut it anymore.
What have you all experienced? What can I expect? I can say for certain I won't have the time to put in a few hundred games every season.
Any insight would be much appreciated
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Some people are Masters with that many games. Some people languish in Gold or Platinum for years even though they play 400 games a season and a focus on improving. If the amount you can play is fixed, then your league will correlate to your talent and to how much you focus on correcting flaws in your play.
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Well, a lot of people place into Platinum out of their first 5, so no, it's not necessary to play a lot of games to stick to Platinum.
I do feel like the jump from Platinum to Diamond is a bit more extreme than from Gold to Platinum, however, because now there's this threshold where just "making more stuff" than your opponent doesn't quite work anymore. More decision making must come into play and that's where a lot of players (including myself) struggle.
I think the best method to to improve in Platinum is to pick one good all-around build against each race and do it every match. This will allow you to refine your game even more.
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On April 25 2013 12:35 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Some people are Masters with that many games. Some people languish in Gold or Platinum for years even though they play 400 games a season and a focus on improving. If the amount you can play is fixed, then your league will correlate to your talent and to how much you focus on correcting flaws in your play.
Quoted for truth.
It doesn't ALWAYS matter how much you can play, time+talent+repetition = your skill ceiling.
Also you want to ask yourself the question, do you WANT to get promoted higher yes or no? are you happy with where you are now, there are plenty of people that don't care about their leagues and just play to have fun.
And ofcourse with all sports, the higher you get in leagues, the more effort it takes to improve as fast as you did before. Even till the extend that you cannot improve that fast ever again.
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First off, wrong forum, this belongs into Blogs. The strategy forum is meant for posting strategy and strategy advice.
I believe that if you are truly dedicated, or at least moderately dedicated and play at least 5-10 games a day, in which you concentrate on correctly executing a build, focus on your macro as much as possible, then you should be able to reach low master, or at least diamond.
Watching streams and vods of higher level players certainly helps to a degree, but you need to be able to discern why they do what, dont just copy builds, try to grasp the thought process behind it.
So to answer your question, yes, i do believe that if you step out of the "casual" zone and seriously focus on your 1v1 play you can and will improve.
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I believe there is definitely a certain minimum amount of games you need to play to keep your skill somewhat consistent.
Starcraft is already a very volatile game. I think this is something that people who are getting discouraged should realize. The great players are able to take losses in stride and analyze them. There is always something you can do better.
You do not need to play hundreds of games per season to improve. You do have to commit time though. And you have to commit to improving. Playing doesn't equal practicing.
Again, I believe you have to play some amount to keep your basic skill up so that you can have a somewhat consistent skill level but if you are watching pro streams or reading TL and really trying to better understand the game then you will improve as well, it's not just the amount you play it's the quality of your practice.
Unfortunately mechanics are probably a platinum players' most important thing to improve so strategy threads and pro streams dont' help as much as just practicing mechanics. Everyone says it but it's true. I'm still working on probes and pylons and Ive been playing this game for 2 years. I'm starting to learn to multi-task and do other things, but I still get supply blocked, and there are still games that I lose because i don't have enough econ/money to make the units I need.
If you do these 3 things, I guarantee you will get to diamond level MINIMUM.
1) Make workers until you have 60-70 on 3 bases.
2) never get supply blocked
3) never have over 500 minerals.
I can't do these unfortunately, sometimes i get 2/3 but.. it's hard out there man. Stick with it, just have fun.
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On April 25 2013 12:46 thurst0n wrote:
If you do these 3 things, I guarantee you will get to diamond level MINIMUM.
1) Make workers until you have 60-70 on 3 bases.
2) never get supply blocked
3) never have over 500 minerals.
I can't do these unfortunately, sometimes i get 2/3 but.. it's hard out there man. Stick with it, just have fun.
Not as Terran.
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Well, I was bronze a year ago and never had any RTS experience but I've played shitloads of games ( I would say few thousands ) in the next 2 season. First season, bronze to top silver. Next season, top silver to top master in my division ( ranked #600ish) by cheesing every single game.
It is sad and boring so I've decided to play the legit way... to be honest, I've no knowledge in macro games or whatsoever, but using 3rd party programs, I've learned the concept of scouting and able to defend and have a concept or idea of what my opponent is doing. I've quitted on and off during the past year, now I'm a 1200 points HOTS Master...
I would say experience comes on handy.. everytime you lose, ask yourself what you did wrong. If you win, ask yourself what you can improve on and what your opponent's mistake and that way you will learn and process faster.
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I started out playing something like 200 games in bronze. After that, I played like 500+ games in gold and platinum combined before I got into diamond. After getting into diamond, masters was significantly less time consuming to get into. It took less than 200 games from diamond to masters for me.
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I had a similar experience actually. I played as Protoss for a while and couldn't break out of gold for the life of me and then I switched to Terran and focused on my mechanics and macro. I got into Plat soon after and since HoTS has come out I dropped back down to gold.... Macro training limits what I am allowed to build so I usually have to beat superior tech armies with MMM.
I think thurstOn's point is pretty much on the money but as the general player base gets better more and more players are capable of constantly building scv's and not getting supply blocked even while macroing half decently. This means that I don't think you will be able to get into diamond on that solely but you will do fairly well. The focus on improving is the big thing I think.
My friend is a zerg player and plays half as much as I do but improves twice as fast despite this. He is diamond and I am pretty sure I can count the amount of times I have beaten him on one hand. Some get better faster and some slower but I think it has less to do with the amount of time played but more so with the dedication you have to improving and the ability for you to reflect honestly on your game. If every terran player thinks that the reason they lost that game was because banes are OP then they will continue to suck rather then learning to split.
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Usually don't post because lets be fair I'm bad and my input on these forums wouldn't be worth much. However I feel this is something I can relate to.
First off you don't have to play a lot but if you want to improve quickly it's probably needed. If you’re amazing at figuring out things just from watching your replays that could also cut down on the games you need to play.
However I have 33 games played this season as ranked (some unranked but my mmr went haywire and I only played against master players so I stopped that) and I feel like I have improved a lot but this mostly comes down to how clueless I was when hots came out.
I still get supply blocked loads and I'm shocked at times how bad some people in diamond are (talking 2base carriers into flaming that swarmhost is op) however I'm pretty sure if u have a decent knowledge base (not through playing a ton of games I guess) and your macro isn't horrendous getting diamond is not something you need to play a lot to get aka reading forums and builds is always helpful if it gives you a better sense of what to do in the big picture which I think is even more important for zerg than other races. I know the last statement is quite biased but let’s be fair if u get supply blocked as toss or especially terran you get demolished because you can't catch back up.
Personally I'm not really following a build as zerg and mostly wing it which is probably why I'm not improving fast or anything but Not getting supply blocked is something even in diamond (I can't speak for master league since I lose like 1/3 against them so I assume they are quite a bit better than me) do so you don't need perfect macro to improve but if you do you would probably go up a league or so.
Focus your play and figure out what you problem is (if it's macro playing more is probably the key) and try to plan your game play more since winging it like myself (if you’re not talented which I'm unfortunately not) does not help you improve fast and improving certain aspects of your game will take longer.
Just as a side note I have a friend who started bronze and is gold now but it still took around 1k games (he played a lot and switched races a couple of times) which is almost as many I have played since launch so it differentiates a lot
Edit: Incase u wanted to know before reading I'm diamondish not sure where and I generaly don't get the rank I could cause I don't play enough (put less emphasis on rank over skill while improving)
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On April 25 2013 13:00 nak0z wrote:
Well, I was bronze a year ago and never had any RTS experience but I've played shitloads of games ( I would say few thousands ) in the next 2 season. First season, bronze to top silver. Next season, top silver to top master in my division ( ranked #600ish) by cheesing every single game.
It is sad and boring so I've decided to play the legit way... to be honest, I've no knowledge in macro games or whatsoever, but using 3rd party programs, I've learned the concept of scouting and able to defend and have a concept or idea of what my opponent is doing. I've quitted on and off during the past year, now I'm a 1200 points HOTS Master...
I would say experience comes on handy.. everytime you lose, ask yourself what you did wrong. If you win, ask yourself what you can improve on and what your opponent's mistake and that way you will learn and process faster.
This sounds kinda interesting...
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I play a few games every month and still beat high master players (although the ranking system seams a bit buggy atm in HotS), so basically no it's not about how many games you play per season. Platinum is nowhere near the level that active players seperate from casual ones.
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On April 25 2013 17:41 RubiksCube wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 25 2013 13:00 nak0z wrote:
Well, I was bronze a year ago and never had any RTS experience but I've played shitloads of games ( I would say few thousands ) in the next 2 season. First season, bronze to top silver. Next season, top silver to top master in my division ( ranked #600ish) by cheesing every single game.
It is sad and boring so I've decided to play the legit way... to be honest, I've no knowledge in macro games or whatsoever, but using 3rd party programs, I've learned the concept of scouting and able to defend and have a concept or idea of what my opponent is doing. I've quitted on and off during the past year, now I'm a 1200 points HOTS Master...
I would say experience comes on handy.. everytime you lose, ask yourself what you did wrong. If you win, ask yourself what you can improve on and what your opponent's mistake and that way you will learn and process faster. This sounds kinda interesting...
What is more interesting is that he wanted to play the legit way...
With 3rd party programs...
Seems legit!
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I've gone from bronze to diamond during my stay in SC2. I don't play very regularly, but sometimes considerably more, sometimes not at all. I also consider that playing 50ish games a season is already enough to improve with when talking about these lower leagues of bronze - diamond. It will be too little however to stay relevant at the top, as above certain point you simply cannot be playing sloppy, and precise playing requires lots of repetition. This however is not the case in diamond at least.
What I've also noticed with long breaks from game is that you don't truly lose the skill in game even with months of absence. You might get slightly rusty, but that gets fixed rather fast when picking up the game again. I've never gone down a league when coming back, since I still have the basics from before down pretty well (have played bit less than 1300 games since buying WoL at release 3 years ago), and you really don't need much more than the basics for getting up to diamond (maybe even masters, but I can't make that claim as I've never got up there myself).
I would say that it's perfectly ok for most to expect to get to diamond level with moderate play. Who knows, maybe you can get even higher than that with sound practice, or maybe you'll get stuck in plat. Full guessing game without knowing you. Just don't expect this improvement to be fast, but it might take a very long time when playing low number of games. I for example was stuck in platinum for a cosiderably long time when just looking at calendar, but not super long when considering the number of games played.
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United Kingdom20299 Posts
I hadn't even put 2 and 2 together until tonight. Now that I'm in Platinum, am I past the point of watching fun TL replays and reading build guides on the forums? Can I no longer be a casual lurker and play a few games a week? Is this where a Starcraft player has to crank it up a notch from "Casual"?
I think, the point where the vast majority of people have to sit back and put some work in (some work varying from 5 games a week to 20 to 200) is somewhere in diamond
The ratio of people in platinum to diamond is 1:0.9.
The ratio of people in diamond to masters it 9:1 - a much more harsh ratio.
Playing casually (2.8k games in almost 3 years about two thirds 1v1) with sc2 as my first multiplayer RTS (i started out doing the 1 base thor until i realized that obviously, 1 base battlecruiser was better) i went silver in season 1, plat in season 2 - diamond a couple seasons later, but i held diamond for 7 seasons because 30 or 40 1v1 wins a season was not enough for me to overcome skill increases, to beat the other 9 people in the top 20% for a masters spot, however low masters now vs low diamond 2 years ago? I was constantly improving at a rather fast rate, just nowhere near as fast as somebody who would play a LOT.
The type of person you are, how you react to training, so many mental factors are just MASSIVE - the type of player that can be the best in the world with 400 hours of practice the month before an event can often be really really awful or slow to improve without playing, and the Stephano's that can destroy continents with a couple hours a day play typically don't seem to see many real gains from lots of practice, either option is good. Scaling well with practice, but to some extent being a natural good player, is probably the best
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you seem to think most peole end up in the smae place ... that is simply not true as evidenced by the fact there are many leagues.
There is no league you shuodl be in.
Next up .... everyone is constantly improving and the game is constantly changing - I still remember how to deal with early terran reapers from early wol days as z and protoss but haven't played them in over a year. That knowledge is not relevant now.
Why expect to get into a certain league. People turning around and saying things liek everyoen shuold be able to get into diamond are essentially saying ';Well i got into diamond or better so from my perspective everyone should' ... ie its a round about way of a smackdown.
Everyone feels like a noob. Get over it ;p
It sounds to me that you ahev a good attitude and enjoy learning ... give up on league fixation and results.
Also you don't just gain skill you are also constantly losing skill ... if you dont play for 2 weeks your game gores to shit (well mine does). If you really want to push past your constant norm then to keep it up there requires ever more work. So these people playing 40 games a day will be up in the stratosphere of their own potential - if they use their practise time right.
Your real question is do you *really* need to be in diamond? Whats wrong with plat?
What you really look to want out of this thread is someone to say 'look dude, really you are asking is it ok to get to the point where the game is so much work that its no longer fun?' the answer you should give is something along the lines of 'Well i love starcraft but you know i like to get laid, see my friends and finally find a job i am happy to do'
So plat is great. have fun.
Could you get into diamond if you really really wanted to and had the time. Of course you could you could get into masters if you wanted. It might take you twice as much effort as the next guy but of course you can do it.
I know why i am not in higher leagues ... i cant be arsed to put in the analysis work and the time on improving my game or relearning what the current metagame is. When i play now i just look up what flash / innovation / dream is doing and steal their build .. play for a few weeks and wander off.
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I played my ass off to get out from bronze and it took a lot less effort to get into gold and then it took me a while to get into diamond (but I didn't really practise hard to get into diamond, I just kept playing a little every week)
I only play around 50 games the most per session about 55% win rate since I don't have much time available anymore.
that's my mindset:
I really didn't want to be a bronze and so I worked really hard to get out from it.
I didn't expect to get much higher after silver but I got into gold quite easily.
Then I wanted to see how far I get and with reading some guides and general improvement on my play, I got to plat.
I wanted to get into diamond (but not as much as I wanted to get out from bronze) since I can beat my master terran buddy quite fairly often but I didn't care too too much and so I didn't play that much.
After I got into diamond, then I feel pretty comfortable at my skill and just want to play some opponents who have put equal/similar amount of effort into the game and enjoy the game.
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I relate to ETisME here. I think high Platinum-low master is where you are guaranteed to get games where people play reasonably enough to create interesting and novel situations so that the games are fun. (Which isn't taking anything away from epic Voidray battles in Bronze, but there's a difference there between real games and wacky games.)
Also, grinding out games doesn't seem to be all that important. I've played a few hundred games since WoL released and I'm diamondish. (I had Diamond as my rank all through WoL, currently platinum with <20 games played) but my unranked is matching me against master's for some silly reason.
So, I'd say you can advance more before your casual attitude stops you at your skill ceiling but there's also very little reason to seek promotion if you're in Platinum. Just enjoy the fun games that you get and see where it takes you. Also, it takes away ladder anxiety and the frustration of losing.
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Russian Federation14 Posts
Imo I could push myself to high diamond at least (casually playing since WoL beta, ~800 games, always been plat-low dia level) without ANY ladder games just by reading guides, watching replays, memorizing what should I do in what situation and playing vs AI to get not-so-horrible timings and macro till 12:00 or so. This feeling is based on my occasional ladder play in HoTS diamond - when I f*ck up the macro game royally and still win.
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I dont think ppl decrease in skill so much when they dont play, maybe they need a few games to come back to there form, and this is regardless of league .You increase most in skill when you correct flaws in your gameplay.
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I think it all lies in defining lacking aspects in your game and then fixing them. Some people play 2000+ games and still in silver. They just play, they don't try to improve. If you put effort in improving and you care about it you will surely get better. Stephano says he does not parctice much...
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As a casual platinum player I can say, with all honesty, that the est method for improving for me has been to do two things: (after having a small set of basic build concepts) set basic goals for yourself such as don't get supply blocked, macro while controlling units, keep your eye on the minimap when you don't HAVE to be watching your units. If you know where your units are, and where your opponents units are you'll know when you do and don't need to have an eye in your units.
The other thing to do is have fun! If your focus, primarily, is to have fun, you'll find it easy to stay motivated to play. If the secondary focus is to improve over time, you will.
While playing =/= practicing, that doesn't mean that you can't improve by having fun playing. It's like playing in the sand box while your a kid. Studies show that childeen learn TONS while simply playing in a sand box. They learn social situations, the dynamics of the sand etc. school all over the world are switching to project based curriculums because they are fun. Having fun DOES encourage learning, and makes it easy to stay motivated. It's like the difference in how you feel excercising; playing basketball vs. running; they both get your heart rate up, but one is much more in than the other.
So set basic goals, have fun, and try to recognize mistakes. Those are the bet ways to get better.
GL; HF : )
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This post intended for those that want to play competitively. As for casual 'fun' players, enjoy the game in plat league : )
Well I play as much as I can around my part time study and part time job, and I try to play about 50 games a week.
I want to first off say that I want to be a professional SC2 player. I know I have the tenacity, resilience and dedication required and I absolutely love the game. (Yes I would play 50+ hours a week with a balanced lifestyle)
Secondly, I consider SC2 like that side-hobby that may or may not take off. I strongly believe masters is achievable with 50 games per week; if I feel like I'm up to par with the best one day, then hell, I'll develop myself further in that direction.
Mechanics, micro, macro and strategy aside, the biggest factor to improvement in my view, by far, is resilience, the will to win, and to really read your opponent well. What I mean to say is once you hit this threshold everyone here has been talking about (solid macro, solid mechanics, decision making etc) and you get high platinum or diamond, you must play your opponent.
Yes, follow a build or general strategy, but you need to adapt and have flexibility from what you read your opponent is doing.
One more thing, playing competitively is painful sometimes; sometimes it's hard to swallow a loss, but the biggest reward is grinding through the losses, then getting that win you were looking for. Or recognizing you've improved dramatically in a short time of play. That's why I enjoy playing anyway :D
I'm high platinum soon to be diamond : ) (Whoever said some diamond players are bad, you are sooo right lol)
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I definitely think you can still watch replays and read guides to improve. If im lucky ill only get to play a couple games a week (school is rough T.T) but I spend alot of time watching vods and reading the various guides on here. Im diamond currently and I think that stuff can help you improve at all levels since it gets you thinking about the game (strategies, mechanics, etc). I also think its definitely possible to be at least low masters playing casually as long as you keep trying to improve when you do get to play.
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On April 25 2013 22:22 Dan26 wrote:
[b]
Summarily I'll say that winning IS everything, but keep it in the context of improving your game, respecting your opponent and having fun.
I like a lot that is your post, but do you think it would be fair to say that if your goal is to get better "improving" should be everything, instead of "winning"?
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On April 25 2013 13:09 Comogury wrote:
I started out playing something like 200 games in bronze. After that, I played like 500+ games in gold and platinum combined before I got into diamond. After getting into diamond, masters was significantly less time consuming to get into. It took less than 200 games from diamond to masters for me.
It was completely the opposite for me. I went from "high bronze" to top diamond very quickly in the first season. Then it took me about 8 more seasons of games to get through my glass ceiling into master's where I peaked at mid-level. To OP: I find it ok to not play all that much. In HotS, you chan use a few games in the unranked ladder to shake off the cobwebs before you put ranked MMR on the line. Compared to WoL, I think it will be easier to maintain your rank simply because of this.
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I went from being gold to diamond in season 1 in 50 games.
My personal belief is that solid macro can take you to masters. There were games that I could have won when masters league first opened, if only I had macroed slightly better. Which would have put me into that league. I still kind of regret that.
Work on your macro and know when it is safe to expand. Supply blocks, not making workers, banking cash when not maxed - those are the worst mistakes possible to the non-retarded player looking to get promoted. Even at diamond level there are gaping holes in a player's macro, so there's always a great deal of room to improve.
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first of all, good job, and welcome to the family of the overmind  ive played 13 games and then i hit platinum again :D
second, dont bother with other peoples games played, since ive seen alot of bronze-plat players that have 3000+ total ladder games played, and ive completely demolished them in the game ,and ive seen ppl that have 30-70 games played that have raped me lol, ( i am around 1100 games played myself)
third, the way to play sc2 or to improve is this: Dont play to win,play to improve.
Dont overthink games, for example: if you feel that your 3rd base took alot of dmg in a match and you had a hard time keeping it saturated or safe, look at the replay and see at what time your base is down,and look at your opponent and see if it actually was safe for you to squeeze out another 10 drones instead of those lings and stuff like that
thats how i got better.
ALSO: platinum is the league where you meet people that has build orders,know decent micro/macro, its not impossible. but think of them as players that you shouldnt take for granted, yes? most of the time 2-3 pron attacks works sort of well, and you will DEFFO see multiple drops on your bases by terrans, so make sure you got proper map control and spine/spores in every base in good position and its all good !
Good luck
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I'm in Dia EU and have played 45 Games this season... its not like you have to play alot of you're in a certain league.
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I've been really busy at the end of this semester in school. That being said, I managed to reach top diamond in about 50 games gradually after HoTS release.However, because of school, I really haven't had the time to play through diamond league yet! I really hope I have some down time so I can splurge all these damn bonus pool points (heard league lock came down) Can't wait to get back in the game!
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As a diamond Zerg, I don't think diamond is necessarily the league you fall into strictly by working on macro, unless you're using builds that have relatively early timings. I started running into players who could hit strong timings that needed to be scouted (or you die) in platinum, so I definitely needed to pick up a bit of decision-making and map awareness to get beyond that level. The only real difference between diamond and plat is that those timings come a little earlier, because people make fewer mistakes in macro.
OTOH, I also have been shooting up fast in MMR since that point, so it's probably most fair to say that everyone has plateaus, and that they're going to be at different spots depending on what you're good at.
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Personally I think Platinum is already somewhat decent level. I was in platinum for nearly 2 and a half year (got promoted into diamond after 1.5 years of WoL but got demoted after a week because of a 15 games losing streak and never got back during WoL) and most platinum players know solid builds and are able to macro pretty decently. Now I got finally back into diamond (when I was diamond back then I think the player pool was not that much lower according to the number that is presented in the starting screen) and I must say that the main difference between platinum and diamond or higher is that in diamond or master you not only have to macro properly you also need to control your units much better than in platinum.
Of course every now and then even in Diamond I get opponents which I macro against the wall, but mainly it comes down to unit control.
For example: in platinum it was enough against a P just to EMP everything you can, press stim and win. But in Diamond the toss wont let you EMP his important units like HTs or Sentries, Sou you wont get all HTs EMPed and there WILL be storms. So in addition to just EMPing you have to split your units so that 2-3 wont kill you.
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I hit Diamond this season with 24 games played (started in Gold) - Don't know whether it was just a lucky game I won or what, but I played a few games as a Diamond player last night & came up against High Diamond / Masters & won 1 lost 4. I think for me to get further in the rankings I really need to refine my builds & just play more games too.
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Russian Federation14 Posts
On April 25 2013 23:39 arkedos wrote:
For example: in platinum it was enough against a P just to EMP everything you can, press stim and win. But in Diamond the toss wont let you EMP his important units like HTs or Sentries, Sou you wont get all HTs EMPed and there WILL be storms. So in addition to just EMPing you have to split your units so that 2-3 wont kill you.
Personally never seen anyone who can EMP in low dia, and I don't know how to use storms at all. I just hotkey my HT on 2, make them follow my army in the back and when engagement occurs I click on the terran ball and wait forever since they are so slow and behind. And don't know any build, just some openings. Tried to hit benchmarks vs AI on MC's FFE air followup yesterday and couldn't get even relatively close. By my impression nobody around my level can macro for shit. Maybe its because of new players influx in season 1, and I'm gold level in fact.
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On April 25 2013 23:59 dzugaru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 23:39 arkedos wrote:
For example: in platinum it was enough against a P just to EMP everything you can, press stim and win. But in Diamond the toss wont let you EMP his important units like HTs or Sentries, Sou you wont get all HTs EMPed and there WILL be storms. So in addition to just EMPing you have to split your units so that 2-3 wont kill you.
Personally never seen anyone who can EMP in low dia, and I don't know how to use storms at all. I just hotkey my HT on 2, make them follow my army in the back and when engagement occurs I click on the terran ball and wait forever since they are so slow and behind. And don't know any build, just some openings. Tried to hit benchmarks vs AI on MC's FFE air followup yesterday and couldn't get even relatively close. By my impression nobody around my level can macro for shit. Maybe its because of new players influx in season 1, and I'm gold level in fact.
I was talking about the gap between platinum and dia. For gold you are right. In gold you know just the openings but not the exact / precise follow ups to your opening, but the guys in high platinum / low dia definitely do know follow ups. That are my expieriences so far form the EU ladder.
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Personally I've always found where I am at the end of a season to be correlated to how much effort I've put in to improve that season.
I started off in Silver and rapidly dropped to Bronze. There I languished for a while just screwing about. Then one season I decided I was going to improve and blasted out like a hundred games in a season with a focus on improvement. Next season I placed in Silver.
Took some time off. Tried again after a couple of seasons, putting over a hundred games in. Season after that I placed Gold playing Golds/Silvers.
Got stuck on Gold for a little while but eventually I started playing Platinums...and after a looooooong time of that I got promoted to Plat.
Since then HotS has come out and I've only played about eight games, placing straight into Silver. But last night I started playing a couple of games again with a view to getting back to where I used to be and then improving again and I beat my first Diamond last night.
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You'll advance as you understand the game better and get better mechanics. Mechanics takes games to learn, but you'd be amazed by how far you can get by just understanding why what happens. Just enjoy the game and do stuff thats fun!
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I wouldn't pressure yourself to play X number of games. Just keep playing as much as you're able to and have fun. I've been in Platinum since release and I only manage to play ~10 games per ladder season.
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Russian Federation14 Posts
On April 26 2013 00:19 arkedos wrote:
I was talking about the gap between platinum and dia. For gold you are right. In gold you know just the openings but not the exact / precise follow ups to your opening, but the guys in high platinum / low dia definitely do know follow ups. That are my expieriences so far form the EU ladder.
Well I was talking about low diamond too (I was in WoL for some time and now in season 1 HoTS). I guess its just league shifts and personal impressions. I barely can stand my own play, very hard to not facepalm every 30 secs. You (and anyone) can add me if you want some practice/roflstomps, I welcome custom games. Dzugaru#600 on EU.
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On April 26 2013 00:43 dzugaru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 00:19 arkedos wrote:
I was talking about the gap between platinum and dia. For gold you are right. In gold you know just the openings but not the exact / precise follow ups to your opening, but the guys in high platinum / low dia definitely do know follow ups. That are my expieriences so far form the EU ladder. Well I was talking about low diamond too (I was in WoL for some time and now in season 1 HoTS). I guess its just league shifts and personal impressions. I barely can stand my own play, very hard to not facepalm every 30 secs. You (and anyone) can add me if you want some practice/roflstomps, I welcome custom games. Dzugaru#600 on EU.
I never said that platinum / low dia or diamond players in general dont make A LOT of mistakes (My main problem for example is that I get supply blocked very often and I think I would outmacro some opponents and win more games if I would not get myself supplyblocked), but you have to have some kind of understanding of the game to be in platinum or in diamond. Nothing more was said by me
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You do not have to play that much to be a decent player. I have never played a ton because of school. I'm mid-Master this season and I have only played about 120 games of HOTS since release (I played like 200 games during beta but that was during a school break and finals last term, in which I only had 2 finals)
35-70 games per season will definitely cut it. I improved from platinum to diamond in WoL playing that many games per season. I only play a lot more HOTS because I actually have time to now (plus it is way more fun). I probably won't next year with school and will go back to doing the same thing. Will I stay in Master? Probably not, but that's ok. School is more important.
The people who have 250+ games per season and are still in Platinum are not people you want to emulate. There is very likely something fundamentally wrong with how they play that is stopping them from improving. If you play that much and are not in at least Diamond or even Master then there is something going very wrong (I justify this by saying that if you are playing that much each season then you should be improving mechanically whether you know it or not. For most people, the more they play, the more they speed up).
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On April 25 2013 12:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 12:46 thurst0n wrote:
If you do these 3 things, I guarantee you will get to diamond level MINIMUM.
1) Make workers until you have 60-70 on 3 bases.
2) never get supply blocked
3) never have over 500 minerals.
I can't do these unfortunately, sometimes i get 2/3 but.. it's hard out there man. Stick with it, just have fun. Not as Terran.
yep, truth
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On April 25 2013 13:00 nak0z wrote:
Well, I was bronze a year ago and never had any RTS experience but I've played shitloads of games ( I would say few thousands ) in the next 2 season. First season, bronze to top silver. Next season, top silver to top master in my division ( ranked #600ish) by cheesing every single game.
It is sad and boring so I've decided to play the legit way... to be honest, I've no knowledge in macro games or whatsoever, but using 3rd party programs, I've learned the concept of scouting and able to defend and have a concept or idea of what my opponent is doing. I've quitted on and off during the past year, now I'm a 1200 points HOTS Master...
I would say experience comes on handy.. everytime you lose, ask yourself what you did wrong. If you win, ask yourself what you can improve on and what your opponent's mistake and that way you will learn and process faster.
What?
Doesn't sound legit to me...
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It's kinda obvious when you think about it. It doesn't matter how many games or how much time you put into it while you are learning the game (which you are constantly). What you get from playing alot is mechanics (faster injects/chrono/mule/scan) and a better feel from the game out of experience. I play a decent amount, 365 this season but i can win vs players with 700 games played, or lose to people with 90 games played. If you actually try to learn things from the game, and instead of doing the same opening or always the same lategame no matter what, you will improve.
Talent is a huge part in sc2, and it is not fair, at all. I'm "talented" in a sense that i've highest league (except GM) since beta and that im around top 500-800 on ladder in EU. But there are so insanely many more talented players than me. The more you think about it, the sadder it is
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Also, if you want to see how wuch you've improved already and how well you play compared to where you (as we all) started - in bronze - log in to a different server, play placement matches. You will see things you are doing right and how good you are compared to others. Don't stick there for too long, though!
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This appears to have turned into a therapy topic =) Nevertheless, I think that when you have grasped the basic concepts of the game, your time spent on playing affects very much on how well you perform. So, instead of considering 60 games per season, its more relevant if you played those 60 games in a row or just one game every day. The more often you play, the better you perform.
I used to be diamond on EU. I'm rather old I guess, above 30's and so. And because of my work I sometimes need to have breaks from the game (sometimes even several months). Now, I just had few week break and after that I decided to play on US (or is it AM nowadays?) server to get back into the game and try the new server feature. I kept losing to gold/platinum players on regular basis (I even started to think that AM server is much harder than EU). But as I just kept on grinding some games every day to get miself started, I hit diamond also on AM within a week.
So, just to cheer you up, it might be that it is just few days difference between failing against gold players and beating diamonds. It is important to know what you should be doing, and for that you do not need to play the game neccessarily. However, to actually be able to play well enough yourself, you need to play some eventually and preferably several games in a row.
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On April 26 2013 02:10 Mallidon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 13:00 nak0z wrote:
Well, I was bronze a year ago and never had any RTS experience but I've played shitloads of games ( I would say few thousands ) in the next 2 season. First season, bronze to top silver. Next season, top silver to top master in my division ( ranked #600ish) by cheesing every single game.
It is sad and boring so I've decided to play the legit way... to be honest, I've no knowledge in macro games or whatsoever, but using 3rd party programs, I've learned the concept of scouting and able to defend and have a concept or idea of what my opponent is doing. I've quitted on and off during the past year, now I'm a 1200 points HOTS Master...
I would say experience comes on handy.. everytime you lose, ask yourself what you did wrong. If you win, ask yourself what you can improve on and what your opponent's mistake and that way you will learn and process faster. What? Doesn't sound legit to me...
I used the program to know what my opponent is doing. I can still get to somewhere around the rank without any programs. I think that`s pretty legit. Even though you know when to safely macro up, but strategy and timings of when to push also plays an important role in higher leagues.
User was banned for this post.
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On April 25 2013 13:00 nak0z wrote:
I used the program to know what my opponent is doing. I can still get to somewhere around the rank without any programs. I think that`s pretty legit. Even though you know when to safely macro up, but strategy and timings of when to push also plays an important role in higher leagues.
There are thousands of players trying to improve the *real* legit way. By watching streams, studying guides and videos, analyzing their replays, playing practice games, and even paying for coaching. That's improvement the worn fingers, adrenaline pumping way.
Map hack is in no way, shape, or form crucial to understanding what your opponent is doing. In fact, it's the opposite of crucial. It's not a tool, it's not a crutch, it shouldn't even be an option. It's garbage, it's cheating, and any player who uses it is garbage too.
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On April 26 2013 04:37 nak0z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 02:10 Mallidon wrote:On April 25 2013 13:00 nak0z wrote:
Well, I was bronze a year ago and never had any RTS experience but I've played shitloads of games ( I would say few thousands ) in the next 2 season. First season, bronze to top silver. Next season, top silver to top master in my division ( ranked #600ish) by cheesing every single game.
It is sad and boring so I've decided to play the legit way... to be honest, I've no knowledge in macro games or whatsoever, but using 3rd party programs, I've learned the concept of scouting and able to defend and have a concept or idea of what my opponent is doing. I've quitted on and off during the past year, now I'm a 1200 points HOTS Master...
I would say experience comes on handy.. everytime you lose, ask yourself what you did wrong. If you win, ask yourself what you can improve on and what your opponent's mistake and that way you will learn and process faster. What? Doesn't sound legit to me... I used the program to know what my opponent is doing. I can still get to somewhere around the rank without any programs. I think that`s pretty legit. Even though you know when to safely macro up, but strategy and timings of when to push also plays an important role in higher leagues.
The word you're looking for is not "legit," it is "cheating"
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On April 26 2013 04:37 nak0z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 02:10 Mallidon wrote:On April 25 2013 13:00 nak0z wrote:
Well, I was bronze a year ago and never had any RTS experience but I've played shitloads of games ( I would say few thousands ) in the next 2 season. First season, bronze to top silver. Next season, top silver to top master in my division ( ranked #600ish) by cheesing every single game.
It is sad and boring so I've decided to play the legit way... to be honest, I've no knowledge in macro games or whatsoever, but using 3rd party programs, I've learned the concept of scouting and able to defend and have a concept or idea of what my opponent is doing. I've quitted on and off during the past year, now I'm a 1200 points HOTS Master...
I would say experience comes on handy.. everytime you lose, ask yourself what you did wrong. If you win, ask yourself what you can improve on and what your opponent's mistake and that way you will learn and process faster. What? Doesn't sound legit to me... I used the program to know what my opponent is doing. I can still get to somewhere around the rank without any programs. I think that`s pretty legit. Even though you know when to safely macro up, but strategy and timings of when to push also plays an important role in higher leagues.
As the two guys above have said, its cheating dude.
And I find it funny that you've posted twice in the general hacker thread complaining about others using stuff similar to what you've admitted using here.
Get rid of them, learn the hardest way, it's far more rewarding!
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On April 26 2013 04:37 nak0z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 02:10 Mallidon wrote:On April 25 2013 13:00 nak0z wrote:
Well, I was bronze a year ago and never had any RTS experience but I've played shitloads of games ( I would say few thousands ) in the next 2 season. First season, bronze to top silver. Next season, top silver to top master in my division ( ranked #600ish) by cheesing every single game.
It is sad and boring so I've decided to play the legit way... to be honest, I've no knowledge in macro games or whatsoever, but using 3rd party programs, I've learned the concept of scouting and able to defend and have a concept or idea of what my opponent is doing. I've quitted on and off during the past year, now I'm a 1200 points HOTS Master...
I would say experience comes on handy.. everytime you lose, ask yourself what you did wrong. If you win, ask yourself what you can improve on and what your opponent's mistake and that way you will learn and process faster. What? Doesn't sound legit to me... I used the program to know what my opponent is doing. I can still get to somewhere around the rank without any programs. I think that`s pretty legit. Even though you know when to safely macro up, but strategy and timings of when to push also plays an important role in higher leagues.
But you dont learn to read the game, and because of that you dont learn ANY timings at all. Sorry but MH is just bullshit.
You only get good at this game if you accept that SC2 is a game of INCOMPLETE information. You have to read what little there is to read. It is hard but it comes with expierience WITHOUT USING ANY HACKS.
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The people who have 250+ games per season and are still in Platinum are not people you want to emulate.
I recently beat a Zerg in ladder who had 4000+ total games played with over 450 games this season. I flattened the poor bugger after scouting his cheese. Having a ton of games and not being 2000+ points in Masters means you are probably hovering around 50% win/loss ratio. And that means you are not improving, which in turn means you are probably stuck in your league.
In order to advance to a higher league, it's really important to focus on improving win/loss ratio. This would naturally net you more points. I only play around 35-50 games a season and have recently went from silver to diamond (I was placed low when I started HOTS because of a long hiatus that started towards the end of WOL). I am currently on a 7-game win streak. Whenever I lose, I sit back, look at the replay, see how I can improve, practice with friends in custom, then revisit ladder.
If you begin losing, really try to analyze why it happened. If you lost because of an uncharacteristic macro mistake, or some poorly scouted cheese, go ahead and play some more games, but if there is something fundamentally wrong with your play don't just hop back into ladder and throw more points away.
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On April 26 2013 05:47 okto wrote:
In order to advance to a higher league, it's really important to focus on improving win/loss ratio. This would naturally net you more points. I only play around 35-50 games a season and have recently went from silver to diamond (I was placed low when I started HOTS because of a long hiatus that started towards the end of WOL). I am currently on a 7-game win streak. Whenever I lose, I sit back, look at the replay, see how I can improve, practice with friends in custom, then revisit ladder.
I'm not sure about that. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but win/loss ratio has nothing to do with what league you're in, but rather only your opponents' MMR. Right? You can be promoted after a loss. In fact several people have lost to me and been promoted.
Lets say you're in Platinum but have a 50/50 win rate against players with higher MMR than you. The system gets more confident that you should be promoted to Diamond and voila, you're in Diamond.
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For reference I have played ~75 games and I am #2 dia, so no, you don't have to play a ton :p
The big difference is that you NEED to watch and STUDY pros much more. Understand their actions and WHY they made those decisions. I have ~150 apm (sc2 gears that is, about 220 sc2) and play bio/bio tank in all matchups with ~62% win ratio.
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I'm not sure about that. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but win/loss ratio has nothing to do with what league you're in, but rather only your opponents' MMR. Right? You can be promoted after a loss. In fact several people have lost to me and been promoted.
It's true you can promoted after a loss, but think of it this way. If you play 50 games and lose half of them, then that's 25 wins worth of points MINUS the 25 losses. If you win all 50 games then you get more points.
Also, a higher MMR means you face tougher opponents. When you face opponents who are favored against you, and you beat them, (and I may be mistaken here) you get more points. So while win/loss ratio is not the direct reason you get promoted, it is inherently tied to it.
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hey guys,
I think casual gaming is up until you feel the urge to want to increase in leagues, personally myself, i have played over 2000 4v4, random,without teams, and have only ever reached platinum.
Sure, i have ony played around 200 or so 1v1, and have only just recently started to play 1v1 as anxiety has slowly dropped away.
Im still finding that there is a constant urge to improve, and every game i go over my mistakes.
When you set goals, like myself wanting to get to diamond this next season, i think the days of casual are over haha
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If your passed the 500-600 win mark and still in a lower league, your doing something wrong and havent improved. Theres more than just grinding out games in expectation to be promoted that way.
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On April 25 2013 22:34 Docta-thunder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 22:22 Dan26 wrote:
[b]
Summarily I'll say that winning IS everything, but keep it in the context of improving your game, respecting your opponent and having fun.
I like a lot that is your post, but do you think it would be fair to say that if your goal is to get better "improving" should be everything, instead of "winning"?
Well that's why I said "keep it in the context of improving your game". Even when I do win, I easily recognize a bad opponent, and equally recognize if I played badly.
You can win and still be disappointed.
You can lose and be extremely pleased.
But I'll say again, WINNING IS EVERYTHING in competition. It's the driving force behind the will to improve. If you're on a losing streak or just getting really pissed off you can't split marines against ling/bane/muta then work harder! And when you finally pull it off, celebrate your victory!
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I'm in Master and there are people in my league with like 20 games played this season...
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I just read through this and god it's fun. I've been spending some time coaching people from gold to diamond and all I can say is : you guys don't really know what you are talking about. Neither plat players nor diamonds players can macro/micro half decently. I can't even do that myself and i'm sitting at top 15 master league.
However, I can relate to the OP. I bought SC2 on release and I wasn't good. I was in bronze league and made my way up to high master. But the first plateau I hit was definitely from plat to diamond. I spent 4 seasons in plat cause I couldn't figure out how to make dem units. I eventually reached diamond as T then switched to Z, fell back to plat and then went back up to diamond.
Plat is where players have put enough time in the game to start making the game fun in a different way. When you get there, it means you've been trying to play around the lines of good. You've been trying to reach good. In the lower leagues (bronze/silver/up to top 25 gold) there's nothing close to good. They just mess around until one of them wins.
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On April 26 2013 04:37 nak0z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 02:10 Mallidon wrote:On April 25 2013 13:00 nak0z wrote:
Well, I was bronze a year ago and never had any RTS experience but I've played shitloads of games ( I would say few thousands ) in the next 2 season. First season, bronze to top silver. Next season, top silver to top master in my division ( ranked #600ish) by cheesing every single game.
It is sad and boring so I've decided to play the legit way... to be honest, I've no knowledge in macro games or whatsoever, but using 3rd party programs, I've learned the concept of scouting and able to defend and have a concept or idea of what my opponent is doing. I've quitted on and off during the past year, now I'm a 1200 points HOTS Master...
I would say experience comes on handy.. everytime you lose, ask yourself what you did wrong. If you win, ask yourself what you can improve on and what your opponent's mistake and that way you will learn and process faster. What? Doesn't sound legit to me... I used the program to know what my opponent is doing. I can still get to somewhere around the rank without any programs. I think that`s pretty legit. Even though you know when to safely macro up, but strategy and timings of when to push also plays an important role in higher leagues.
O ok, I guess that makes sense.
/sarcasm
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On April 25 2013 12:46 thurst0n wrote:
If you do these 3 things, I guarantee you will get to diamond level MINIMUM.
1) Make workers until you have 60-70 on 3 bases.
2) never get supply blocked
3) never have over 500 minerals.
I can't do these unfortunately, sometimes i get 2/3 but.. it's hard out there man. Stick with it, just have fun.
Well I think you are highly overestimating the skill in diamond and over simplifying your points.
1) So make workers and no units? Probably not gonna win you many games in plat. Probably what u meant was "Keep adding on workers whenever you don't have to make units, until you have 60-70 and 3 bases.
2) Anticipate your supply needs. Are you ramping up to attack? Are you droning hard? If you currently have less than 10 free supply and aren't making any drones/units then make some overlords. Much better to have 40 free supply and 300 less gold than having 7 free supply and an attack hitting your base.
3) This one doesn't even make sense. Most zergs in dia have stupid high unspent resource counts. Zerg build in waves. If you want to go for a huge muta attack, you need to bank up huge min/gas first. If you've spent your time dilligently keeping your minerals low, you now can only make 5 mutas..... you lose. What you actually want to do is similar to point 2. What are your plans? Are you going for a huge macro based game? Do you want 90 drones before you make any units? If so, keep pumping drones and making macro hatches and keep your money low. If you want to go for a big ling/bling attack, stop making drones, hit your injects and pump lings, dont spend gas. When you are nearly ready to go, start saving the minerals to morph your banes.
Starcraft isn't simple. The difference between bronze and plat isn't talent or mechanics, those things help, but its about understanding what to do in what situation. Many Master League players got there by cheesing every game, their macro mechanics suck and if you can survive their cheese, you win... even if you are bronze, because their mechanics are just as bad as yours.
Nothing is worse for a player trying to improve than to be given oversimplified bullet points on what they should do. The guy even admits he can't do all 3. To get to diamond is very simple, either perfect a cheese or learn the game.
Focus on understanding why you should do this or not do that.
Think ahead, always have a plan.
You learn more from losing one game than winning fifty, so be happy about the wins but dont' be sad about the losses, use them to make u a better gamer.
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On April 25 2013 12:18 MrGh0st wrote:
Unable to break out of Silver I found myself at a constant loss. This was obviously before the option to switch regions or play UnRanked matches for the sake of trying out new builds.
One day, a few months ago, I lost a whole MMM BioBall to banelings and festors. I sat, I stared at my computer screen, I contemplated life itself.
After several drinks and a trip to the E.R. to stitch the wound in my hand, I decided to take a deep breath and said "You know what? I'll try Zerg..."
Needless to say since those few months ago I went from Silver and now I just recently got promoted to Platinum.
I feel like there's a hidden message here...
But seriously, Zerg horribly OP.
FOR REAL NOW, ALL JOKING ASIDE (thank god for HotS though), getting up there only a minimum level of SOLID macro and SOLID strategic thinking. Now, what this means is, everything makes sense. For example, you might be spending all your money, but if you have no workers, or you spent it on completely useless things (especially at useless times), then it slows you down a lot. If you went CC first into an EBay then straight into a Raven, with mass turrets or whatever, and managed to somehow spend all your money, your early resources went into almost 100% useless things. A few Ravens do nothing on their own. Turrets do nothing. An EBay does nothing until you have gas for upgrades and won't defend any sort of push. So for a Zerg, you'd be doing 15 Hatch->16/17 Pool->16/17 Gas->4 Lings+Double Queens->Drone up with double evo upgrades+third base->Lair tech or a pool first relatively similar variant (obviously much different in ZvZ).
Then strategically, you'd be thinking about attacking the proper locations, defending where they're likely to attack and ONLY committing the minimum requirement to defense, getting the most cost efficient tech with a good army composition, and expanding when necessary/possible while denying any mining bases you can (or at least pressure them if you can without taking significant losses). Note how I said mining bases, since some lower level players always ram into the same location (the natural or the third) even if there is nothing of value there for them to take such a risk to attack what will normally be a very defensible location. Of course, if you can ram into the natural or main (sometimes even the third) and win a convincing battle, you'll win immediately whereas doing that push on the 4th or 5th base will just shut down a base (even though you can keep pushing, but your opponent might have remade an army strong enough to push you back, though if you regroup, you can continue a second push).
From there, you will generally choose one that you will focus on and specialize in. Of course, you will look to improve both, but it's easier to focus on greatly improving one first. I chose to improve my mechanics, and I have lost to players with much weaker macro and mechanics because strategically they were far superior (to the point that it covered the difference in macro and more). But just because their macro was weaker doesn't mean it was particularly bad. It's solid, but far from perfect. Working on your macro takes less intelligence to improve, but it takes more games (since 1 mistake throws everything off, and you want to ingrain the habit of not making a single mistake except for mistakes in decision-making). Improving strategically can be done very quickly as long as you can analyze why you lost and why you won in every game, analyzing the decisions that both you and your opponent made. So you don't need to commit a ton of time to improve, but you can't just blindly with no direction and expect to get better. Obviously, you can't be 100% casual at anything and get to a high level at whatever you choose to do. Experienced RTS players can get to a really high level, but they aren't really "casually" playing the game.
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MMR aside, it would interesting to know exactly how much fewer games higher ranked players actually play to beat the equation and not get demoted, I can imagine that lower league players who play a lot and lose may have a wider variety of awareness of the game in terms of losing which is a funny thought.
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Some people said plat to diamond isn't about building more stuff anymore, well yes it still is. Plats are far worse at spending money on 3 bases. So, defend allinish attacks and get to 3 bases and make sure you learn to macro harder. You can get into masters by building nothing but marines + upgrades and medivacs after the early/mid-game (make sure to add other units like tanks if you scout an early allin).
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On April 25 2013 12:44 TechSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 12:35 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Some people are Masters with that many games. Some people languish in Gold or Platinum for years even though they play 400 games a season and a focus on improving. If the amount you can play is fixed, then your league will correlate to your talent and to how much you focus on correcting flaws in your play. Quoted for truth. It doesn't ALWAYS matter how much you can play, time+talent+repetition = your skill ceiling. Also you want to ask yourself the question, do you WANT to get promoted higher yes or no? are you happy with where you are now, there are plenty of people that don't care about their leagues and just play to have fun. And ofcourse with all sports, the higher you get in leagues, the more effort it takes to improve as fast as you did before. Even till the extend that you cannot improve that fast ever again.
It's funny how you quoted that guy for truth, now I must quote you for it.
You need to be happy with your league. I was masters in 1v1 for 7 seasons and eventually grew tired of it. I didn't put too much effort, but it took me about an hour and a half a day to maintain and at some point it became too much. Now I play about 4 games a week and happily stay on top of diamond.
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My stay in bronze was probably the longest. But then I moved fairly quickly from silver, to gold, to plat. Then I spent a looooot of time in platinum. I just wasen't constistent in my play. I've never been. Maybe I just play too often when I'm fatigued. Anyway, I found the move to diamond pretty hard actually. Was actually demoted back to gold for two days, but I found that a good learning experience. Now I'm in diamond and trying to make the next step. Also off racing as terran to gain a slightly better understanding of that race.
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Once you hit a certain level, you don't have to practice every day to maintain it generally, unless you play at GM level your mechanics get to a stage where they won't depreciate too much (unless you don't play for months on end of/c), if you keep up with the metagame (by watching a fair amount of games) without playing it only takes a certain amount of practice to stay at the same level.
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On April 25 2013 12:46 thurst0n wrote:
If you do these 3 things, I guarantee you will get to diamond level MINIMUM.
1) Make workers until you have 60-70 on 3 bases.
2) never get supply blocked
3) never have over 500 minerals.
I can't do any of these but 1 and I'm mid masters O.O
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This isn't a simple question to answer.
There are many variables, some which You will not like hearing.
Like any hobby, activity, or something you work towards bettering yourself at, time, proper focus and practice are all key elements. For *MOST* people, in order to progress and succeed, it takes a certain amount of routine practice, making note of your flaws and paying special attention to those in order to correct them. In the case of sc2, replay analysis, posting on TL for help, watching streams, other replays, tournaments , writing down notes/builds , etc.
To answer your question in some regards, typically there is a line that must be drawn for succession in this game. There's a point everyone will get to, in which if they really want to progress beyond, they must crank it down pretty hard, and start massing games, along with the analysis and studying tactics aforementioned, to really break through to a new plateau.
The part you might not like to hear- Some poeple are better at this than others. There's no denying some players have an innate ability to pick things up fast, learn , and master techniques far easier than the rest of us. I have several friends like this. They can play half as much as me, and go above and beyond where I'm at.
Also keep in mind, alot of sc2 players were heavy SC1 players, like myself. There was a huge built in skill transfer between the two games. No matter how much has changed, 75 percent or more of the mechanics and fundamentals are rooted directly from sc1. I'm still not master... I'm rank 1 diamond, but I've been playing this game since starcraft 1 (albeit not seriously competitive that whole time).
So , there's different aspects and variables, but in essence you WILL reach a point where you have to start focusing and mass gaming, playing smarter , and just doing your homework. Where that line is drawn, simply differs from person to person.
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Just wanted to add my personal experience into the mix here. I started playing RTS during WoL Beta, got placed into silver and spent a good month playing 20-30 games a day and got to the top of the ladder ( plat at the time was the top league ). Since then I have played maybe 30 or 40 games a month on average ( sometimes going 2 or 3 months playing not at all if the meta-game is shitty at the time ). During that time I've been in mid-high masters ( if I play enough to spend my bonus pool I'm always top 25 masters ) every season I played games in. I got the 1000 zerg games achievement after HOTS released, and that's counting a ton of team-games with friends, at least 30% of my games were team-game shenanigans.
So maybe there is some required period of true improvement needed to get to Masters but, in my opinion it's just like riding a bicycle and once you have it, you should keep it ( or get it back within 4 or 5 games upon returning ) so there is no needed to play like 400 games a season every season ( maybe one season, to improve ).
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On April 25 2013 12:18 MrGh0st wrote:Greetings! I've been a lurker for quite awhile on TL's website. I've enjoyed reading all the guides for SC2 and the Live Streams in between breaks I played WoL on the day of release as Terran and decided to really improve my skill in 1v1 for the next couple years. I failed miserably. Unable to break out of Silver I found myself at a constant loss. This was obviously before the option to switch regions or play UnRanked matches for the sake of trying out new builds. One day, a few months ago, I lost a whole MMM BioBall to banelings and festors. I sat, I stared at my computer screen, I contemplated life itself. After several drinks and a trip to the E.R. to stitch the wound in my hand, I decided to take a deep breath and said "You know what? I'll try Zerg..." Needless to say since those few months ago I went from Silver and now I just recently got promoted to Platinum. I was Rank 10 but have just kind of slipped to Rank 21 at the moment due to me not having the time to play. I guess this is where the main question comes in, and it was something I hadn't even thought about until my third loss in a row... Right now I'm hovering around 51% win in general so I think I'm where most people should be. The issue, however, is that I've only played 70 games this season. Whenever I'm getting absolutely STOMPED and destroyed it's against an opponent with anywhere from 250-450 games for the season (that's coming to a close.) I hadn't even put 2 and 2 together until tonight. Now that I'm in Platinum, am I past the point of watching fun TL replays and reading build guides on the forums? Can I no longer be a casual lurker and play a few games a week? Is this where a Starcraft player has to crank it up a notch from "Casual"? Bear in mind I'm not complaining about this imba or that imba, I'm just needing to know if 35-70 games per season ain't gonna cut it anymore. What have you all experienced? What can I expect? I can say for certain I won't have the time to put in a few hundred games every season. Any insight would be much appreciated
Hey top 16 master here , i don't actually play that many games a season around 75 or so , around 60% win rate overall. it all comes down to how much you improve in those games, i have seen players with 1000's of games played and they are stuck in plat or bronze or somewhere in between , quality over quantity.
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Yeah, I think I play 80 something games/season on average (unless it's summer), have 60% win rate overall, and am Midmasters. soooo. I think it's not the amount of games you play, but it's the amount of time you spend improving. I could play 10 really terrible games, win half of them by luck, but not do anything to improve. (ex. not focus on anything). Or, I could play 4-5 games and learn how to use camera hotkeys, a new build, etc and get better.
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My first time making it to masters this season, and I played about 200 games, which is normal if am into Starcraft, which i am this season since Hots is fun. Just keep on playing and if you have no idea why you lost a game, watch the replay to improve
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On April 28 2013 05:19 FCReverie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 12:46 thurst0n wrote:
If you do these 3 things, I guarantee you will get to diamond level MINIMUM.
1) Make workers until you have 60-70 on 3 bases.
2) never get supply blocked
3) never have over 500 minerals.
I can't do any of these but 1 and I'm mid masters O.O
Cause you're not a master's macro player. And you don't have to be a macro player to win high level games. Remember BoxeR?
Never getting supply blocked and never having over 500 minerals is unrealistic though (the most likely race to stay under 500 minerals is Terran). Protoss and Zerg are burst production races as they can't queue up units and produce units in rounds. And with theoretically perfect Terran macro (0 queue up time and 0 down time in production), you will end up being the exact same as Protoss and Zerg. It's more realistic to say keep under 500 minerals/300 gas(ish) per base you have until you max out and start banking while you look for a good engagement and set up for alternative late game transitions/tech switches.
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Hi everyone,
I am currently at Plat, and desperately want to get to Diamond.
I am stuck at Platinum for 2 seasons, but I have a problem: I beat quite many Diamond players (even top Diamond) when MMR. For low Diamond my winning rate is high, and it's not bad with top Diamond players. I met more Diamond players than Plat players. This suggests I am near Diamond as hell.
However, I still get stuck at Plat. I play ~250 matches this season, and winning near 150 matches. I play with improving mind, not cheesy.
So, sometimes it's disappointed.
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On April 28 2013 19:50 MasterDrone wrote:
Hi everyone,
I am currently at Plat, and desperately want to get to Diamond.
I am stuck at Platinum for 2 seasons, but I have a problem: I beat quite many Diamond players (even top Diamond) when MMR. For low Diamond my winning rate is high, and it's not bad with top Diamond players. I met more Diamond players than Plat players. This suggests I am near Diamond as hell.
However, I still get stuck at Plat. I play ~250 matches this season, and winning near 150 matches. I play with improving mind, not cheesy.
So, sometimes it's disappointed.
Had this one, you need to continue and one day a win streak will promote you up
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On April 28 2013 23:43 RandomQueen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 19:50 MasterDrone wrote:
Hi everyone,
I am currently at Plat, and desperately want to get to Diamond.
I am stuck at Platinum for 2 seasons, but I have a problem: I beat quite many Diamond players (even top Diamond) when MMR. For low Diamond my winning rate is high, and it's not bad with top Diamond players. I met more Diamond players than Plat players. This suggests I am near Diamond as hell.
However, I still get stuck at Plat. I play ~250 matches this season, and winning near 150 matches. I play with improving mind, not cheesy.
So, sometimes it's disappointed. Had this one, you need to continue and one day a win streak will promote you up
I had 2 win streak, pretty good, 25-3 and 16-2 i guess, but still stuck around :D Saw some people who promotes to Diamond in 50 matches, I'm jealous.
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On April 25 2013 12:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 12:46 thurst0n wrote:
If you do these 3 things, I guarantee you will get to diamond level MINIMUM.
1) Make workers until you have 60-70 on 3 bases.
2) never get supply blocked
3) never have over 500 minerals.
I can't do these unfortunately, sometimes i get 2/3 but.. it's hard out there man. Stick with it, just have fun. Not as Terran.
I'm diamond and I only train marines, lol.
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I hadn't even put 2 and 2 together until tonight. Now that I'm in Platinum, am I past the point of watching fun TL replays and reading build guides on the forums?
Ahah you don't get it.
This is the point where you should be starting to learn new build orders on forums and read macro/micro guides,you don't need them for a league bellow platinium where you can just watch a bunch of progame and try to emulate it.
The moment you get in platinium is the moment things are starting to accelerate,its now that you need to start looking for builds,scouting guides...
Can I no longer be a casual lurker and play a few games a week? Is this where a Starcraft player has to crank it up a notch from "Casual"?
Regarding the number of game per week tbh i think it depends on the person,some of them have natural talent and some haven't.
Me i'm just diamond and i only play like one game a day with some breaks,with some period being more intensive (no exams...)
And my rank has not been downgraded but it upgraded so i guess more games =/= faster skill learning.
You should play less and concentrate on some of the game facet you lack or want to improve (macro/inject/split)
And everything should be just fine until diamond.
Master and more on the other hand requires way more of your time i think.
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Here's an answer that a lot of people are going to dislike...
Some people simply have higher skill. That's just it.
I've been playing chess for years, as well as other games, which allows me to have extremely good strategy, tactics, ect. I play less than 100 games per season, and I'm a top 15 master league player. I generally play with around 100 APM, and I don't lurk the fourms looking for gimmicky all-ins for ladder point boosting.
I have a friend who has played THOUSANDS of games, sometimes playing 1000 games in a SEASON! He is a platinum level player. Why? I honestly think some people are just not as good at strategy games. Some people just can't seem to understand the values of mobile armies vs static armies, or counterattacks, or flanks. It's just the way it is. There are ways to improve skill, but sometimes talent is talent, and lack thereof is what it is.
EDIT: I don't think it has anything to do with your race btw; not sure why you included this in the OP
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Wow! Didn't expect this volume of responses!
I appreciate all the input, I decided to put the number of games mentality behind me and I climbed the ladder some more (Top 8 now) but the season has locked. At any rate I think it's how Shid0x put it, time to start really studying the guides and discussions here and elsewhere.
As for the talent comment, I couldn't agree more. It's possible I could or could not possess the talent to get behind Plat/Diamond...who knows?
And I included my switching Zerg in the OP just to give a little bit of background to my suckery 
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On April 29 2013 02:37 MrGh0st wrote:Wow! Didn't expect this volume of responses! I appreciate all the input, I decided to put the number of games mentality behind me and I climbed the ladder some more (Top 8 now) but the season has locked. At any rate I think it's how Shid0x put it, time to start really studying the guides and discussions here and elsewhere. As for the talent comment, I couldn't agree more. It's possible I could or could not possess the talent to get behind Plat/Diamond...who knows? And I included my switching Zerg in the OP just to give a little bit of background to my suckery
I think that talent doesn't really come into it that much tbh. It is all just how you think about things and if you practice effectively and really think about your losses and wins or if you just ladder and play.
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Let's say the amount of talent a player has is directly proportional to the speed he can learn new things. The more talented you are, the less games you'll need to hit the higher leagues. Sc2 is a very complex game, where mechanics, knowledge, mindset, physical skills (hand-eye coordination), and the understanding of rts concepts like timing all are important.
It took me about 1000 games to finally get good enough to exploit holes in my opponents' builds. I used to play in autopilot mode for a long time, which means that I was capable of making tons of workers and tons of units in a decent amount of time - but I wasn't able to understand scouting information correctly, which led to lots of horrible losses. (I can still remember losing terribly to mech terrans, because I simply was refusing to adjust my army composition.)
In other words, it takes a lot of effort to understand the little things. Seeing a forge fast expansion tells you about the basic possibilities you have, but it won't tell you exactly which build the protoss will do after that. Beginners will go for a double expansion as zerg, but many of them won't scout properly after that, which will lead to wrong decisions. Better players constantly check their opponent AND they're able to read the infos the right way. (gas timings, upgrades, probe count, etc.)
Over time, I developed an okay-ish understanding of the game (and better mechanics), which now allows me to react correctly to things I scout, I've just recently jumped from diamond to mid-masters in one season - which means nothing. I'm still bad.
To OP: Basically, everyone sucks at this game, and so do you, so do I. Even pros often say that they can't play the game well, even though they might beat 99,9% of all active players with ease. It's all about perspective and dedicated practice. If you're able to practice with focus, you'll soon be able to climb the ladder. Be realistic and concentrate on improving YOUR game, because that's all what matters at the end of the day.
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You should look at total games played and compare that to league, took me about 3k games to get to masters, how many games have you played total?
Gl on madder man
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EPT
