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Hi guys,
I'm a silver/gold player, just getting back to SC2 after a few months of a break, so naturally a lot of skills need to come back.
In WOL I always had problems with Zerg muta/ling stuff. I focused on utilizing a Bomber build, so basically getting 3 bases early and turtling, max supply limit out with 2/2 and then moving out.
In this game I deviated a bit as in I did not wait for 200/200 but decided to move out early to try to take out his third.
I certainly botched the first attack with tanks at 12mins and probably should have prevented that 3rd expo of his with hellions.
Day9 always says to focus on the first mistake in the game. So obviously it'd be losing that SCV building the natural but obviously at my level this is not something that could really cost me a game so I'd like to hear opinions on what other major mistake or general strategy could have screwed me over. I mean generally this game was going quite well for me, I didn't get harrassed by him (usually it's the opposite) and it was I doing most of the harrasment.
It seems to me that most of my trades were disadvantageous for me and with each trade he was chipping away at me more and more. Perhaps I should've waited for a larger wave and push then? It also seems I definitely didn't have enough tanks.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated, thank you.
http://drop.sc/311954
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Add me in game and I will help you if you are on the EU server.
Reptile 792
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Notes on your game:
• Be conservative with your hellions--you're sacrificing widow mine production for them, don't just throw them away.
• Quit playing a WoL style with marine/tank. Widow mines are much more powerful and are equally as viable as tanks.
• Attack with a purpose. You attacked when your combat shields + tank was halfway finished. Attack when you finish an upgrade, not before!
• Your attack gets crushed at 12:36. Why? Because you waltzed on creep without scanning for his army size. You have 0 medivacs, your tank wasn't sieged, and you lost your entire army.
You've now given the Zerg complete control of the game. He can expand at will while you're playing catch-up dealing with the mutas. The problem wasn't the composition, but the decision you made to attack insensibly.
tl;dr your deviation killed you. There's a reason these builds are designed they are. Follow them exactly and try to understand why Bomber did what he did. You don't have the same level of understanding as Bomber so don't deviate unless you understand what you're doing and know how to react.
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Thanks a lot romelako, you gave me some specific things to pay attention to. I will observe the metagame and try to find a new, mine-focused build. Hopefully it should not be too hard to adjust as mines operate similarly to tanks in terms of micro and come from the factory as well.
And man, can't believe I attacked before the upgrade finished. I need to start paying attention to that. I'm much better at it in TvP where I try to do a 10' stim push...better pay attention to it in all games.
Dvriel, I play on NA but I'd be glad to login to EU for you to help me out. I'll try to find you on b.net, thanks a lot.
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On March 22 2013 03:36 romelako wrote:
Notes on your game:
• Be conservative with your hellions--you're sacrificing widow mine production for them, don't just throw them away.
• Quit playing a WoL style with marine/tank. Widow mines are much more powerful and are equally as viable as tanks.
• Attack with a purpose. You attacked when your combat shields + tank was halfway finished. Attack when you finish an upgrade, not before!
• Your attack gets crushed at 12:36. Why? Because you waltzed on creep without scanning for his army size. You have 0 medivacs, your tank wasn't sieged, and you lost your entire army.
You've now given the Zerg complete control of the game. He can expand at will while you're playing catch-up dealing with the mutas. The problem wasn't the composition, but the decision you made to attack insensibly.
tl;dr your deviation killed you. There's a reason these builds are designed they are. Follow them exactly and try to understand why Bomber did what he did. You don't have the same level of understanding as Bomber so don't deviate unless you understand what you're doing and know how to react.
Well this is just not true. Tanks, especially in the hands of a worse player, is outright better than widowmines. Koreans prefer mines since it makes their army more mobile, but against muta/ling/bling? tanks win by a landslide. Flash would never had lost against Life if he had just played standard and used tanks, something that have been brought up and discussed by several pros.
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United States4883 Posts
On March 27 2013 21:52 vBr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:36 romelako wrote:
Notes on your game:
• Be conservative with your hellions--you're sacrificing widow mine production for them, don't just throw them away.
• Quit playing a WoL style with marine/tank. Widow mines are much more powerful and are equally as viable as tanks.
• Attack with a purpose. You attacked when your combat shields + tank was halfway finished. Attack when you finish an upgrade, not before!
• Your attack gets crushed at 12:36. Why? Because you waltzed on creep without scanning for his army size. You have 0 medivacs, your tank wasn't sieged, and you lost your entire army.
You've now given the Zerg complete control of the game. He can expand at will while you're playing catch-up dealing with the mutas. The problem wasn't the composition, but the decision you made to attack insensibly.
tl;dr your deviation killed you. There's a reason these builds are designed they are. Follow them exactly and try to understand why Bomber did what he did. You don't have the same level of understanding as Bomber so don't deviate unless you understand what you're doing and know how to react. Well this is just not true. Tanks, especially in the hands of a worse player, is outright better than widowmines. Koreans prefer mines since it makes their army more mobile, but against muta/ling/bling? tanks win by a landslide. Flash would never had lost against Life if he had just played standard and used tanks, something that have been brought up and discussed by several pros.
That's an odd statement. BioMine is actually a completely different playstyle and economy from marine/tank. BioMine is way more aggressive, allowing you to put on steady pressure all game long; saying that marine/tank would have won is like ignoring the entire game and the pressure he was able to put on. In addition you can't just switch to tanks halfway through and suddenly be playing Bomber-style, the buildings and the add-ons are all designed for primarily pumping out widow mines/marauders and you probably won't have vehicle weapons upgraded.
Getting back to the replay: essentially, DO NOT move out unless you have 3 bases, huge production, all your upgrades, and the ability to constantly push over and over again. Terran thrives on the 3-base constant macro, cost-efficient trade pushing, especially against zerg. Basically, your army should get cleaned up every time, but at the cost of a LOT of muta/ling/bling and/or a base; but every time you push, your army should look scarier while the zerg army should slowly look less scary as money and larva get scarce. That's the idea behind Bomber's style of huge 3-base aggression, at least.
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On March 27 2013 21:52 vBr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:36 romelako wrote:
Notes on your game:
• Be conservative with your hellions--you're sacrificing widow mine production for them, don't just throw them away.
• Quit playing a WoL style with marine/tank. Widow mines are much more powerful and are equally as viable as tanks.
• Attack with a purpose. You attacked when your combat shields + tank was halfway finished. Attack when you finish an upgrade, not before!
• Your attack gets crushed at 12:36. Why? Because you waltzed on creep without scanning for his army size. You have 0 medivacs, your tank wasn't sieged, and you lost your entire army.
You've now given the Zerg complete control of the game. He can expand at will while you're playing catch-up dealing with the mutas. The problem wasn't the composition, but the decision you made to attack insensibly.
tl;dr your deviation killed you. There's a reason these builds are designed they are. Follow them exactly and try to understand why Bomber did what he did. You don't have the same level of understanding as Bomber so don't deviate unless you understand what you're doing and know how to react. Well this is just not true. Tanks, especially in the hands of a worse player, is outright better than widowmines. Koreans prefer mines since it makes their army more mobile, but against muta/ling/bling? tanks win by a landslide. Flash would never had lost against Life if he had just played standard and used tanks, something that have been brought up and discussed by several pros.
really? did you load up the replay and have the two pros play eachother again but with marine tank and with flash winning 4-0?
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 28 2013 03:12 terriBean wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 21:52 vBr wrote:On March 22 2013 03:36 romelako wrote:
Notes on your game:
• Be conservative with your hellions--you're sacrificing widow mine production for them, don't just throw them away.
• Quit playing a WoL style with marine/tank. Widow mines are much more powerful and are equally as viable as tanks.
• Attack with a purpose. You attacked when your combat shields + tank was halfway finished. Attack when you finish an upgrade, not before!
• Your attack gets crushed at 12:36. Why? Because you waltzed on creep without scanning for his army size. You have 0 medivacs, your tank wasn't sieged, and you lost your entire army.
You've now given the Zerg complete control of the game. He can expand at will while you're playing catch-up dealing with the mutas. The problem wasn't the composition, but the decision you made to attack insensibly.
tl;dr your deviation killed you. There's a reason these builds are designed they are. Follow them exactly and try to understand why Bomber did what he did. You don't have the same level of understanding as Bomber so don't deviate unless you understand what you're doing and know how to react. Well this is just not true. Tanks, especially in the hands of a worse player, is outright better than widowmines. Koreans prefer mines since it makes their army more mobile, but against muta/ling/bling? tanks win by a landslide. Flash would never had lost against Life if he had just played standard and used tanks, something that have been brought up and discussed by several pros. really? did you load up the replay and have the two pros play eachother again but with marine tank and with flash winning 4-0?
It's been worked out that Life was able to purposely avoid mine shots using clever ling control, had Flash gone marine tank, Life would not have been able to do this.
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For now I will keep practicing this build as I can probably adjust it when I get better at it. Even then though, I will try to incorporate some mines in there as they are definitely good and seem so good agains Zerg, especially lower leagues where players' micro sucks.
The dilemma will be how to balance mine/tank production from factories. Maybe I sohuld skip hellions and just build a few mines? I know hellions are for early map control and I try to use them to prevent his 3rd, but maybe I can just send a mine there instead?
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On March 28 2013 03:12 terriBean wrote:
really? did you load up the replay and have the two pros play eachother again but with marine tank and with flash winning 4-0?
How awesome it would be if they tried that after Life won :o
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ok, so here's a game from today that I think went much better. Not only because I won it, but because I felt like I stuck to the plan a bit more.
http://drop.sc/314706
Basically, I said I'm gonna turtle on 3 bases and not move out until maxed out with 2/1.
Things I think I did well:
1. Didn't lose the reaper and all hellions
2. Scouted his gasless FE, so expected early 3rd and felt safer going with my turtling plan
3. Established 3rd and focused on defending it (I know the north entrance could've used some spotter/mines)
4. Got more tanks this time around
Now, I realise I moved out before 2/1 and maxing out but only because his roach all-in failed and I felt it left me in a good spot to counter-attack. It paid off by getting his 2 expos.
I also did what you guys suggested when moving on creep - scanned and killed tumours. I also just learned that he cannot see me on creep unsupported by tumours lol. Man,been playing this game for a while but I always though that as long as there's creep there, he can see what's on it. haha. good lesson, now I see how crucial those tumours are.
His 3rd was really late and I didn't have to deal with mutas, so it made things a lot easier. I'm not really sure what he was trying to do, he got a baneling nest but then massed roaches...maybe he was drunk.
Anyway, I'm still excited for feedback and any suggestions as to tweaking this build for HOTS.
thx
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There are lots of cute things you could do; 1 thor in base plus a AA tower in mineral and production, drop when his muta are in your base, have a mine or two around where you think his muta is likely to go, get building armor - maybe even range, a few marines and a medivac left in base to fend of muta.
Against ling / baneling, I prefer to rely on tanks more than mines. 
Everyone is still messing around I guess and has they own preference.
Could stim your marines and run behind your maruaders to tank baneling shots. (ctrl click marines)
Split like a pro, bait banelings into mines. when you the engagement comming, siege tanks / stim marines / run behind tanks, focus fire banelings with tanks. Gl
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On March 28 2013 11:02 Michal wrote:ok, so here's a game from today that I think went much better. Not only because I won it, but because I felt like I stuck to the plan a bit more. http://drop.sc/314706Basically, I said I'm gonna turtle on 3 bases and not move out until maxed out with 2/1. Things I think I did well: 1. Didn't lose the reaper and all hellions 2. Scouted his gasless FE, so expected early 3rd and felt safer going with my turtling plan 3. Established 3rd and focused on defending it (I know the north entrance could've used some spotter/mines) 4. Got more tanks this time around Now, I realise I moved out before 2/1 and maxing out but only because his roach all-in failed and I felt it left me in a good spot to counter-attack. It paid off by getting his 2 expos. I also did what you guys suggested when moving on creep - scanned and killed tumours. I also just learned that he cannot see me on creep unsupported by tumours lol. Man,been playing this game for a while but I always though that as long as there's creep there, he can see what's on it. haha. good lesson, now I see how crucial those tumours are. His 3rd was really late and I didn't have to deal with mutas, so it made things a lot easier. I'm not really sure what he was trying to do, he got a baneling nest but then massed roaches...maybe he was drunk. Anyway, I'm still excited for feedback and any suggestions as to tweaking this build for HOTS. thx
If you are going to 1 Rax Expand, the order should be barracks, then command center, then gas. Going gas before CC is really inefficient. Command Center should go on the low ground directly.
At some point you need to stop building SCVs. you were at over 100 by the end and it cuts into your army size. Stop at 70ish SCVs, so that you can build more units.
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haha, ya, the SCV count got a bit insane there. I had a feeling it's too high but didn't want to lose focus counting them. That's something I'll need to incorporate into my play. I remember in the past I lost a game to that cause I couldn't make a large enough army.
I have to revisit the build but I think it had the early gas there before expo due to the need for fast reactor and factory for hellions/tanks.
ThisisRaider: All great tactics and I'm aware of most of them but it's hard to execute them in the heat of all the mayhem =) I got the turrets in minerals but keep forgetting the Thor and 2nd factory. Will keep practicing.
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On March 28 2013 23:47 Michal wrote:
haha, ya, the SCV count got a bit insane there. I had a feeling it's too high but didn't want to lose focus counting them. That's something I'll need to incorporate into my play. I remember in the past I lost a game to that cause I couldn't make a large enough army.
I have to revisit the build but I think it had the early gas there before expo due to the need for fast reactor and factory for hellions/tanks.
ThisisRaider: All great tactics and I'm aware of most of them but it's hard to execute them in the heat of all the mayhem =) I got the turrets in minerals but keep forgetting the Thor and 2nd factory. Will keep practicing.
You can go for fast reactor without going for gas before CC, but in any case the expo should go directly on the low ground. Don't build it in base and float it over. As for counting SCVs make use of the HotS worker count on the CC, but after a while you can tell just by looking at a mineral line if it is fully saturated or not.
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EPT
