EPTI think I have seen something like this before
Check this out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311746
[G] Replacing Infestors with Hydralisks - Page 4
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
I think I have seen something like this before Check this out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311746 | ||
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
I could go on but there you go. Counterattacks, earlier to come out (beats timings based on infestor pop time) etc.etc. Overall they're a more aggressive unit choice and can punish greedy terrans comprehensively, whereas infestors are almost always a passive option that declares the intention for an early lategame situation. Hydras say 'do you have enough stuff' - and if terran has, it's levelled the game at a stable army-based midgame rather than a tech based transitional one. Stardroid Space | ||
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mothergoose729
United States666 Posts
Hydras do not reduce the kiting potential of marines. Against a strong marine force, or a marine hellion force, it stands to reason that infestors are going to be more cost effective. Infested terrans are a good way to soften a seige line. Hydras do not provide this same kind of utility. Hydra ling would do very well against a marine maurader force that has a significant number of marauders, if zerg can flank and engage on creep. Against a marine tank force or anything with blue flame hellions, it seems like infestors would be more cost effective. When it comes to counter pushing, I don't think hydralisks are strictly necessary. Every game is different of course so there very well may be times that hydras are more effective. Speaking in general though, if a terran commits heavily and aggressively to mid game pressure (say, anything between 10-13 minutes), then one of two things are likely to be true. 1. Terran does not have a third base. Zerg will have a superior economy, and stopping the mid game push gives zerg a free ticket to hive tech. 2. Terran does not have all the production facilities they need for a proper late game. Depending on the push, this could mean not enough starports, slower upgrades, or fewer factories or barracks. It could also mean late core upgrades like stem or combat shields. In this case, zerg has superior upgrades and superior production, and can be the aggressor. In either case, it is often advantageous for zerg to put pressure back on terran. Hydralisk do allow zerg to snipe command centers instead of just making them lift of, but the effect on the game is nearly identical regardless. Terran does not need scvs going into the late game, terran needs mineral patches. If zerg can deny terran from mining from a third base than zerg is in a very dominant position. Situations in different games are always going to be unique, but if a terran committed to a mid game push and failed then their tank count is likely very low, their marine count is likewise not very high, if terran has a third base it can usually just be overun with one round of injects of lings or roaches and one or two well placed fungals. Lings and infestors are much quicker off creep than hydras; another advantage the infestor ling composition offers is the ability to almost immediately put on counter pressure, and also the ability to retreat. | ||
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
The thing is, putting on counter pressure with infestors or hydras is a good idea and it's hard to see how the composition feels until yhou try it (or watch the replays from BuildingS). The reason why hydras, I believe, are better, is that they can't be managed. a good spread will mitigate fungals, good walling and spreading mitigates ling/bane. Nothing really stops hydras other than superior forces (the most important point), so zerg's attack is always alive if there's an attack to be had. They even look a bit like bunnies so think of them as everready bunnies. Shove them right up there (son). If there's a midgame push from terran, I agree, either the third or the army will be delayed. Choosing hydras means having the army advantage, and if it's heavy pressure, as you say, then if you killed the push you'll kill the guy, as simple as that. If there's a third without army you simply sit in the third and that's game (a round of lings won't do that even if they delay mining by overwhelming the area, you'll need to get to hive or keep trying to exchange). If there's a less strong push then that's units for free (with infestors you're often using energy you would rather be saving). You really need to try it out to get it. The 'almost immediate' as you put it, ability for infestor ling to put on counter pressure is really 'immediate' in the case of hydras. Why you'd want to retreat I don't know. Seige lines - if you have infestors you'll positively need to soften them up when you can because when you 'go in' you're put on a timer with your lings for whatever fungals/terrans you'll throw to use your energy, so it all helps. I've always thought of that style as throwing a blanket on a fire. If you're using hydras against marine/tank/medivac you'll be killing things so quickly you don't need to soften things up, just to make sure to engage from a good position, that's becausee the most important thing is not throwing your units into well defended positions. It's more like throwing a bucket of water on a fire. Hope that makes sense, Stardroid Space | ||
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Silencioseu
Cyprus493 Posts
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Grubbegrabbn
Sweden174 Posts
On January 02 2013 09:13 Silencioseu wrote: This is really weird i've been losing to roach hydra recently T.T. Roaches just stop any kind of early aggression and if i go greedy roach hydra push will do tons of dmg and Z is still ahead At what level? Wont roach hydra leave the zerg without any tech? Dont you just switch to tanks at the first sign of this? Replay? Im asking cause I really like the mid game hydras but I thought throwing roaches in the mix would be horrible. | ||
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WollKnoll
Namibia14 Posts
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DidYuhim
Ukraine1905 Posts
On December 17 2012 13:12 eSuBuildings wrote: Replacing Infestors? But without my Infestors, how am I supposed to win? Made me giggle. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On January 03 2013 19:42 Grubbegrabbn wrote: At what level? Wont roach hydra leave the zerg without any tech? Dont you just switch to tanks at the first sign of this? Replay? Im asking cause I really like the mid game hydras but I thought throwing roaches in the mix would be horrible. The standard tvz meta game: 3 cc, helion shee, into double ups (either bio or mech) perfected by MKP, Is designed for ling infester, or ling muta. ----> late game. A speed roach timing, +1/1 Roach, or Roach Hydra timing can be very effective during this time. (8-11 min) Before Terran is ramping up for a 3 base timing. Yes mass tanks stops this. As well as pure bio, 2 cc timings. However, helion into shee into tanks does not allow you to have enough tanks to stop the attack, if its really all in, and not just a timing with droning behind it | ||
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FuzZyLogic
United States141 Posts
I can see them being useful in mid game (nothing new here), but hydras are next to useless late game and don't support hive armies very well compared to infestors. To the point of terran timings hitting when infestors arrive, infestors will always be better at dealing with timings if they have upgrade and roach/ling is simply more cost effective than hydras for defense. Zerg only has a few combat units and they're all very straightforward/easy to use so obviously pros have tried to make hydras work at some point or another in the 2+ years the game has been out but there's a reason no one uses them outside of timing attacks and ZvZ. Terran has a much higher skill ceiling than Z, on master NA you can win against T doing any number of things such as mass banes, pure ling/bling, roach/bling timing, muta/ling/bane, ultra/infestor etc etc, the real test is going against higher GM terrans and seeing if it works there. edit: It's also worth noting that while they work for timings, the gas would probably be better spent on banes/roaches anyway. | ||
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