EPT[G] Replacing Infestors with Hydralisks - Page 2
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
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cywinr
Canada173 Posts
However, I use them a lot more in ZvP (and obviously ZvZ). I am incredibly, ridiculously, terrible at using infestors. Once I try to transition into infestorling, or infestorbroodlord, I start losing the game regardless of the matchup. Instead, I much prefer the hydrabroodlord. It is actually incredibly strong, and is much easier to micro (actually there is no micro, you just split them). They basically act the same as infested terrans, but are even better since their dps is instantaneously available and their lifespan doesn't expire. | ||
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snexwang
Australia224 Posts
On December 17 2012 19:00 agahamsorr0w wrote: Well.. he's got that cute hatch-cancel-creep thing.How is this any different than my guide on hydras zvt? (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379289) + Show Spoiler + You mad? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
Thanks for the guide. I have been following agahamsorrow's hydra midgame that he posted a little while ago. And in fact the two suggested styles are very different: you advocate delaying/provoking the Terran, sorrow advocated passive play with minimal hydras straight up to broods. I think therefore there must be plenty of play in Hydras! I don't know how the hatch/creep idea works out if your opponent can anticipate it, but it looks fun so I'll try it (and besides I love crushing those pushes!). I've been having a bit of trouble with my third timing generally so I'm not great at ZvT at the moment, but in fact hydras have often kept me alive long enough to get ultras out, leading to a lot of Terran frustration, even on late 3 base play! (Still, I'm awful and the people I play in diamond are, but still I count it as a successful game choice). I am also awful with infestors, they're a bit like shopping trolleys that you cart around the map distributing temporary damage. Keep up the good work, will enjoy the reps. Stardroid Space | ||
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eSuBuildings
United States71 Posts
On December 17 2012 19:00 agahamsorr0w wrote: How is this any different than my guide on hydras zvt? (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379289) I'm in class right now and have yet to thoroughly read through his guide, but based on what I've skimmed through, his style is still reliant on Infestors and uses Hydras as a midgame buffer as he techs to infestor brood lord. IMO, using Hydras as a transition into a BL/infestor army is indeed a waste of money because if you want to go for that "ultimate Zerg composition", you can get there with Infestor play much easier and or in the same fashion. My build uses Hydras as a crutch in the army all game long and replaces Infestors, showing how winnable the match up is without them. | ||
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eSuBuildings
United States71 Posts
On December 17 2012 21:15 Stardroid wrote: hi BuildingS, Thanks for the guide. I have been following agahamsorrow's hydra midgame that he posted a little while ago. And in fact the two suggested styles are very different: you advocate delaying/provoking the Terran, sorrow advocated passive play with minimal hydras straight up to broods. I think therefore there must be plenty of play in Hydras! I don't know how the hatch/creep idea works out if your opponent can anticipate it, but it looks fun so I'll try it (and besides I love crushing those pushes!). I've been having a bit of trouble with my third timing generally so I'm not great at ZvT at the moment, but in fact hydras have often kept me alive long enough to get ultras out, leading to a lot of Terran frustration, even on late 3 base play! (Still, I'm awful and the people I play in diamond are, but still I count it as a successful game choice). I am also awful with infestors, they're a bit like shopping trolleys that you cart around the map distributing temporary damage. Keep up the good work, will enjoy the reps. Stardroid Space Aggressive play can also help in provoke and delaying the Terran, but my way allows for less of a toll on the economy. To be honest, I was very hesitant in writing this guide because I didn't want my ladder secrets and my own play style to be anticipated, but eventually even with said anticipation the style should be figured out. There have been instances though where my queen gets caught before it can lay creep and I've still taken the game regardless. | ||
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DwarfTherapist
United States48 Posts
It bewilders me that you go to the effort of creeping out the natural 3rd, but don't scout the other possible locations at all. The reps i viewed you left the 3rd unscouted all game. I personally think that hydras and infestors have a lot of features that compliment eachother. Especially if you're able to get behind the terran army with your lings, with the festor hydra coming from the front. VERY hard to micro against. | ||
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eSuBuildings
United States71 Posts
On December 17 2012 21:47 DwarfTherapist wrote: Cute play. It bewilders me that you go to the effort of creeping out the natural 3rd, but don't scout the other possible locations at all. The reps i viewed you left the 3rd unscouted all game. I personally think that hydras and infestors have a lot of features that compliment eachother. Especially if you're able to get behind the terran army with your lings, with the festor hydra coming from the front. VERY hard to micro against. You can get both, but to have decent Hydra count and Infestor count in the mid-game is very taxing on your gas seeing that you're only on three bases. That's why I opt for Infestors later if I do choose to get them | ||
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immanentblue
Denmark110 Posts
On December 17 2012 18:23 NarAliya wrote: That's what the Zerglings/Banelings are for I guess. With good marine spreads and focus firing, i dont see ling/bane beating a patient marine tank player, that is not either pressured by mutas or in danger of being fungaled... OP mentions resetting the medivac count, but to my experience, you can only do that with hydras after you crush his push... If you just move in with ling bane and hydras, hes gonna focus down the banes with his first siege volley, and the hydras with the second, while his medivacs just run away like the marines and then your left with lings vs marines medivacs and any tanks that are left... Doesnt seem like a fair fight... But maybe im approaching it wrong? | ||
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eSuBuildings
United States71 Posts
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Maggost
Venezuela296 Posts
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Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
I don't really agree with sending the queen at the Terran's third. It seems like you would just have that much of a harder time defending against hellion pressure with less queens to defend. You would also have fewer minerals from canceling your hatch again and again. It's not like Terrans grab all that fast of a third base anyway so I don't see any reason to make that high priority for the early game. I suppose if my creep spread is amazing then I would feel pretty comfortable going for Hydralisks but considering how much more involved Terrans are at keeping down the creep spread with hellions and small packs of marines, I don't think a Masters level Terran would allow too much creep spread unless they were behind in which case you could win with almost anything, ceterus paribus. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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alpenrahm
Germany629 Posts
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 17 2012 21:22 eSuBuildings wrote: I was very hesitant in writing this guide because I didn't want my ladder secrets and my own play style to be anticipated lol Anyway, how DO you stall Marine/Tank with this? I've been thinking about it and Banelings/Zerglings don't seem to be enough. Wouldn't it be at least better to go +1 Carapace rather than +1 Ranged first to hold it off easier? | ||
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eSuBuildings
United States71 Posts
@alpenrahm blue flame is sort of the build that is strong against this, but proper walling with spines should keep you safe. @NarAllya depends on when the push is coming | ||
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tili
United States1332 Posts
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loginn
France815 Posts
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On December 17 2012 19:28 snexwang wrote: Well.. he's got that cute hatch-cancel-creep thing. + Show Spoiler + You mad? User was temp banned for this post. Just asking a question. Anyways, I watched the reps and in two games on ohana, you crush a timing push because he didnt micro, which is pretty bad by him. This already puts you ahead since he doesnt get fast upgrades. Another one because the terran didnt make tanks and just made 6 rax at the same time and thought he could get away with it. On one of the games on daybreak he sent like 16 scvs to mine from his 3rd while it was clear he could not land his cc for about 2 minutes because of creep. This puts him pretty hard behind because he could have mined more than 1k extra minerals. Just because of this, you double his army value by the time you "faint" attack him. He also had a tech labbed factory for about 5 minutes but had only 2 tanks out. On another game on ohana, he gets supply blocked on his factory for 2, mb 3 minutes. thats 3-4 extra tanks.He has resources for them. More than 1k minerals and 500 gas. He also goes fast 3cc into biomech without early double eng bay. He doesnt split vs infestor and gets his whole army of 60+ marines get fungalled by just 1 fungal. At this point his eco is too fucked up because of the delay with creep (he could have taken out all of the tumors with 1 scan. Instead he scans and doesnt scan for another minute, delaying his 3rd even more). So now on your side. I think you are playing very blind cause (correct me if im wrong i didnt check if you scouted all games) you don't scout anything from terran after you know its a fast expo. I think scouting after lair is done is a good choice because it could be either mech or biotank. The engagement style vs mech is very different from biotank. So just make 1 overseer to scout tech and upgrades. no reason not to. You don't expand as much as me, which makes me think this build is kind of an all in timing attack. It basically all comes down to you doing a timing attack vs either a terran that doesn't know how a 3 base marine tank all in works or defending a timing attack from a terran that can't micro and doesn't know how positioning works in starcraft. Also, you do make some infestors in some games. The correct way to deal with this style is to sit on 3base, go mech or biotank and make tanks out of 3 factories while trying take a 4th. You simply can't break a good tankline with hydras and banelings. Just because of how good tanks are vs massive ammounts of hydras, I choose to tech to broodlords so that he cant just blind counter my strat by going mass tanks. As some have mentioned, Hydras now are too expensive for what they do in big numbers to keep massing them. Their strenght doesn't grow exponentially like infestors or broodlords. They just deal good damage when in range and not getting killed. Going hydras as a stepping stone to get bl out is not always better but grants you more map control to defend creeptumors and bases from drops instead of making mass static defense. And you will need much fewer infestors to defend (3 untill bl are out because you shouldn't have trouble saving energy with hydras) Don't think of me as a bad guy, I'm just trying to give some tips. I put your guide on my guide since it's the same unit composition but different style. | ||
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crbox
Canada1181 Posts
EDIT: Also this is not even the most important part. The thing is when you go muta, the terran really has no reason to push before being maxed because you delayed your hive tech, which is the only clock you can put on Terran. If you go hydras, it's the same he can just max out and get a nice number of tanks off 3facts. The difference between muta and hydra is that you can gain time with muta harass. Unless you get drops, this strat will never work against a terran that knows what he's doing in that case : turtling and pushing at max before hive. The thing with ling infestors is that you save all gas for infestors, which are good late game units, upgrades, and getting BL or ultra eventually. They line up for a good late game. This strat might have some midgame potential, good for cleaning up medivacs and stuff, but unless you get drops or nydus, you're not really gonna break a 3 bases terran with tanks and simcity and as long as t has 3 bases and can max out, he wins | ||
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