In my PvZs nowadays I go gate nexus pylon gas core with a 1z+5s attack around 7 min or earlier and 12 early speedlings totally shut down my push. Now of course zerg can get speed on the way faster because they react to gateway first, but I think it finishes before 8minutes if he does it in reaction to chronoed WG ?
[D] A turtly PvZ strategy - Page 3
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Geiko
France1929 Posts
In my PvZs nowadays I go gate nexus pylon gas core with a 1z+5s attack around 7 min or earlier and 12 early speedlings totally shut down my push. Now of course zerg can get speed on the way faster because they react to gateway first, but I think it finishes before 8minutes if he does it in reaction to chronoed WG ? | ||
kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Swazi
United States11 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
That said, it's a very fun build to do. | ||
AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
On October 05 2012 01:03 Teoita wrote: While 4Gate into DT can work extremely well, especially at lower levels of play (i am like 9-1 with it at mid master), it's a bit gimmicky as you invest a ton of resources into both a pressure build and unit that relies on your opponent more or less screwing up. That said, it's a very fun build to do. Not only that but you'd have to do a considerable amount of damage (Im talking 20-30 drone kills + killing at least one of the mining bases) just to come out ahead. Dt's are expensive and set back your sentry count and other tech transitions incredibly. And if they happen to scout your dt's with an overlord prior to yuor attack you can just forget about do any damage at all. | ||
SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
I like the earlier Carriers and Mothership, but the only way those units actually work is if you already have Templar up. Might as well skip a step and rely on Archon splash + Storms so your Carrier transition is much less seamless. The only trouble with Templar is hardcore Roaching, so you will need a good group of Immortals (and hit a timing to kill spines before Broods are done, then go home) or Void Rays with strong upgrades. I guess there's nothing wrong with a slower progression if you need comfort while doing so, but I see way too many people die because they make Colossus, get a Mothership and then the two units have absolutely no use when put together because Corrupters kill them both. | ||
Grubby
Netherlands318 Posts
On October 04 2012 06:29 rsvp wrote: Watched the first rep. I used to pretty much do this exact thing almost every PvZ, namely warpgate aggression without fast tech, relatively fast 3rd, turtle with colossus and cannon, get 4th, get carrier/mothership, make carrier/colossus/archon/ht mothership deathball, win. However, problems with it include: 1. Fast 3rd with slow tech is unsafe. You need to know if they're trying to mass roach off 3 base to kill you or if they're teching/macroing/getting a 4th. If you have few or no immortals against fast roach max, you will die, if you blindly chrono immortals/more sentries and other defenses you'll be behind going into late game or if they go mutas. I guess in your game you might have reacted differently if you sensed/scouted a fast roach max was coming, but there would be no way you'd survive it doing what you did. 2. Getting a 4th early before you're nearly maxed or have a large number of robo units is unsafe. The zerg should have been maxed at that point, and also his infestor play was sloppy so you were able to defend it (for example he threw infested terrans only after his army died). I'm never able to hold a 4th at that stage of the game though. 3. Slowly transitioning to carriers is awkward. If you have a large ground army you want to vortex broodlords and then burst DPS when units come out. If you have carriers you want to vortex corruptor. If you are slowly transitioning to carriers then you have a period time where you're extremely weak when you only have a few carriers out and a lot of supply tied into making more carriers. At that point your army is still mostly ground but it's significantly smaller, and the few carriers you have are not adding much to your side especially when your own vortex sucks in interceptors. In other words what I'm trying to say is mass carrier with colossus/ht/archon support is strong, mass ground with mothership is not bad, but mostly ground with some carrier support is very bad. So now my standard PvZ macro/turtle build is a bit different. Here's how I've adapted: 1. Fast robo, fast 3rd but still with the 8 minute 4 gate warpgate timing. My first 100 gas goes to warpgate tech and a stalker, my next 100 gas goes to the robo. Then I add 3 additional gateways, and I can put down my 3rd at around 7:30. I afford this by not getting my +1 upgrade that early (usually I start it after I start my 3rd base), and by delaying my 2nd gas and the 3rd/4th gas until after I start the 3rd base (I know that you also delay your 2nd gas in your games, but most standard PvZ builds get double gas at 19/20 supply). Not only does the fast robo provide me with a fast obs for fast scouting, it also allows me to build up that immortal count fast to defend my 3rd against roaches. 2. I don't take a 4th until I'm nearly maxed and I'm moving out to attack. I typically go for a pre-bl colossus timing, but I still get a mothership behind it so it's not a complete all-in and I have something to fall back on if he is able to defend until BLs come out. Because my 4th is later, I can't afford to get carriers that fast, so I don't. But this leads to my next comment: 3. Carrier transition - the best way I've come up with to transition to air is to prepare for a mass transition - get air upgrades and lay down a lot of stargates, but don't make any carriers yet, just focus on your stalker/colossus/archon/mothership army first. Work on your mothership micro (which is actually quite difficult - you need to control it will since it needs to be fully stopped before it can cast vortex, and also you need to watch it at all times and protect it from neurals), but if you are careful with your mothership although the game may stalemate if he hides behind a spine wall, he shouldn't be able to beat your army until he slowly turns his entire army to ~20 broodlords with some infestors/corruptor support. At this point you should be grabbing a 5th and even more bases and mass cannoning to protect them, while harassing with warp prism/poking with your main army. When he finally attacks you can choose to try to defend it, or go counter into his main. Most likely he'll turn around to try to defend, and then you do your air transition while trying to kill off as much of his base/tech as you can. After he stabilizes, continue to buy time by doing warp prism harass (use 2+ warp prisms). Hopefully you haven't actually killed any of his brood lords so that all his supply is tied into bl when you get air out. It sounds kinda cheesy but it's the best you can do unless you just want to all-in earlier and pray for lucky vortexes, once the zerg gets like 20 broodlords and doesn't stack them all in 1 place there is literally no way for you to kill it with only ground and 2 vortexes. Note that the carrier transition doesn't always happen - in fact it's actually quite rare for the game to get to that stage, but it's pretty much the best way I can come up to make carriers. I Here's a replay kinda showing this, it's not too good (some early timings were off especially the late warpgate timing, also I get an early 4th like I say not to, but I get it because I scout his fast hive plus I kill off a group of roaches without taking any losses), but it's the best I can quickly find right now. I'll try to find other reps later. http://drop.sc/261127 Also just as another build you may want to look at is that jangbi fast 3rd build where you just chrono gateway units out of your first gate, and get your 3rd base off of 1 gateway. It's nice if you want to pressure the zerg earlier, since most zergs are just used to defending the 8:00 warpgate timing and can get caught off guard either taking more damage than they should or overbuilding units and then being behind in drones. I personally don't like it because your tech is slower but if you don't mind that you should try it, it's safer than you'd think with a lot more early aggressive potential. Quoted this post for echoing my thoughts, very true all this. | ||
rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On October 04 2012 20:03 Geiko wrote: Regarding the opening 1z+5s pressure, I find that any good zerg player that goes fast speed in response to seeing you chrono your WG tech more then twice will easily shut this down ? I have a feeling that early WG attacks are so uncommon that people don't know how to react to them yet, but the style is inherently flawed. In my PvZs nowadays I go gate nexus pylon gas core with a 1z+5s attack around 7 min or earlier and 12 early speedlings totally shut down my push. Now of course zerg can get speed on the way faster because they react to gateway first, but I think it finishes before 8minutes if he does it in reaction to chronoed WG ? On the contrary, I rarely see fast speed in response to me chronoing my WG tech, and most zergs I play seem to know how to perfectly handle any variation of early WG pressure I throw at them (without fast speed). It still makes it worth it though even if I don't do any damage, I feel like it's a small investment for me and forces out a lot of units from the zerg rather than drones early on, so I don't see what's inherently flawed about this. And anyway I always have a few gateway units on the map prior to my warp-in (ex. zealot/stalker), and if they see speed early on or a huge number of lings I simple don't do the offensive warp-in. You're probably seeing the fast speed response to your gate nexus build rather than the chronoed WG tech. On October 05 2012 03:54 SidewinderSC2 wrote: I agree with Smurf regarding Templar vs Colossus. I've always felt that Colossus have the most narrow role in PvZ, and translate to the late-game extremely poorly. If you don't do damage with your Colossus during a pre-Brood timing, their usefulness and investment really don't line up particularly well. Having your main form of tech dedicated solely to killing free units (Broodlings) seems like a really poor implementation of late-game gas. I like the earlier Carriers and Mothership, but the only way those units actually work is if you already have Templar up. Might as well skip a step and rely on Archon splash + Storms so your Carrier transition is much less seamless. The only trouble with Templar is hardcore Roaching, so you will need a good group of Immortals (and hit a timing to kill spines before Broods are done, then go home) or Void Rays with strong upgrades. I guess there's nothing wrong with a slower progression if you need comfort while doing so, but I see way too many people die because they make Colossus, get a Mothership and then the two units have absolutely no use when put together because Corrupters kill them both. I completely disagree. I know that some players do prefer HT over colossus against infestor heavy armies and that it's certainly a viable alternative, but going colossus versus infestor is so much easier. I don't know what game you're playing where colossus have a narrow role or are useless in the late-game, they are very effective not only against broodlings, but also infestors, any ground unit besides ultra, and especially infested terrans and infested terran eggs (I've had plenty of games where I was able to get good vortexes off but the zerg manages to deny my archons from getting into the vortex with huge infested terran egg walls + fungal, if I had more colossus during those situations that would not have been an issue). Their 9 range is so crucial in a phase of the game where the zerg is focused on denying you from getting into range to attack anything. In fact in games where I don't get colossus early on, I feel like I absolutely need to have them for late game if I see them teching to BL/infestor. In the end you'd want both colossus and archons, and maybe if you were faced with a large number of broodlords and you have a mothership and can only afford archons or colossus I'd go with the archons, but for every step of the way until that point I'd rather have colossus over archons if I had to choose. | ||
ant-1
Canada149 Posts
On October 05 2012 03:54 SidewinderSC2 wrote: I agree with Smurf regarding Templar vs Colossus. I've always felt that Colossus have the most narrow role in PvZ, and translate to the late-game extremely poorly. If you don't do damage with your Colossus during a pre-Brood timing, their usefulness and investment really don't line up particularly well. Having your main form of tech dedicated solely to killing free units (Broodlings) seems like a really poor implementation of late-game gas Actually I feel that colossi are necessary to clean the broodlings while the stalkers kill the BLs, and most of the pros I see try to constantly be at around 2-3 colossi for this reason (I suspect). That is until they transition to carriers. Regarding the build, I'll try it although I stopped doing early aggression since zergs seemed to manage it so beautifully it would not really produce anything of value. I think I'm later than this build is, that maybe why. Thanks for the good builds kcdc! | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Overall, both have their pro's and con's, and often it comes down a lot to a player's style. Plus as rsvp said, using colossi is far easier and more "intuitive". | ||
QzYSc2
Netherlands281 Posts
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DarkblueRH
United States144 Posts
On October 05 2012 04:10 Grubby wrote: Quoted this post for echoing my thoughts, very true all this. I only read the wall of text because Grubby told me to. Just wanted to throw that out there. However, after reading it, rsvp is pretty much saying exactly what I would have said too, but with a lot more detail. Especially the building up for a Mass Carrier switch as opposed to slowly building up Carriers. I've been playing around with after getting +3 weapons, getting +1shield instead of +armor and adding in +air attack to prepare for this mass air switch that I'm planning on doing if the game progresses that far. Not entirely sure it's a good idea because of the extra gas spent decently early on +air and +shield for units that don't exist yet, but I don't feel I've lost because of it yet. ----- Edit: Food for thought, I was watching SsonLight the other day vs jEcho and he went for an early Robo -> Second Forge + Twilight -> 3rd Base -> Swell of gateways, and defended a 3base, 4gas, roach max on Ohana beautifully with Immortals, Charge, and 2-2 finishing at around ~12:00ish. Only sim-city on the natural's ramp, left the 3rd open with just a couple cannons for support. I didn't get a chance to record the game or write down any specifics, but I thought it was really cool and completely opposite to the thought process we're all thinking of in this thread. Yes, Sson > jEcho but he was doing it on Korean ladder as well with a great amount of success. I'm unsure what his response to baneling and/or mutas would be but everything else seems rather covered if you scout no-gas and fast 3rd. | ||
Belha
Italy2850 Posts
Thanks to kcdc and monk for making that posible. And yeah, collosi is a must for many reasons. | ||
jackalope1234
122 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. User was temporarily forum banned for this post. | ||
kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On October 05 2012 11:26 DarkblueRH wrote: I only read the wall of text because Grubby told me to. Just wanted to throw that out there. The moral of the story is you should never skip an rsvp wall of text. He does pro-level strategy guides as random comments halfway through a thread. If you want to save time, as a rule of thumb, you're better off skipping the OP and going straight to rsvp's reply. As for skipping colossi to get archon+mothership faster, it's really hard to deal with roach-infestor timings with templar tech, and colossi are also helpful against infestor-broodlord. For a long time, I was a big proponent for skipping colossi because they're not good in your perfect carrier/archon/storm composition, but they make it much easier to survive to that point. You don't need to build a ton of them, but having 2 or 3 helps a ton for staying alive. | ||
SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On October 05 2012 04:53 rsvp wrote:I completely disagree. I know that some players do prefer HT over colossus against infestor heavy armies and that it's certainly a viable alternative, but going colossus versus infestor is so much easier. I don't know what game you're playing where colossus have a narrow role or are useless in the late-game, they are very effective not only against broodlings, but also infestors, any ground unit besides ultra, and especially infested terrans and infested terran eggs (I've had plenty of games where I was able to get good vortexes off but the zerg manages to deny my archons from getting into the vortex with huge infested terran egg walls + fungal, if I had more colossus during those situations that would not have been an issue). Their 9 range is so crucial in a phase of the game where the zerg is focused on denying you from getting into range to attack anything. In fact in games where I don't get colossus early on, I feel like I absolutely need to have them for late game if I see them teching to BL/infestor. In the end you'd want both colossus and archons, and maybe if you were faced with a large number of broodlords and you have a mothership and can only afford archons or colossus I'd go with the archons, but for every step of the way until that point I'd rather have colossus over archons if I had to choose. But then I feel like if you have both Colossus and Archons, you are relying on getting a money vortex somewhere throughout the battle, which is frustratingly inconsistent. I think it comes down more to comfort than actually what is downright better. I'm not comfortable at all engaging a Brood Lord army and expecting my Stalkers to kill the Brood Lords and trade effectively, so I try to use Storms, Mothership and Stargate units as much as possible to do that. And still, I know that plenty of people can fight Brood Lord armies with Stalker + Colossus and maybe a Mothership depending on the timings of it all, I just don't feel comfortable and would rather transition more directly into a late-game army before the battles get too big. Just my opinion though. I never really thought Colossi were worth it because of how much they don't kill Brood Lords. If you can find a way to force them to keep making mid-game units via aggression and harassment, then yeah, Colossi are really good. But a normal PvZ to me is like a 3-base Protoss timing trying to kill a couple bases and/or some spines before the Brood Lords come out, then going home, continuing the harassment while desperately switching into a late-game army and sometimes just dying to an attack (like Leenock did to Hero). If you can switch in time and get enough economy crippling done, then you might win. If not, the Colossi attack Broodlings while your only form of AA dies incredibly quickly to fungals and Brood Lord fire. And the trouble is that the more the metagame develops, the harder I see Zerg players stuffing that big Robo timing off 3 bases as the 4th goes up. Also, regarding Colossi being easier, I think that's a good point - particularly just because of the mechanics of the unit.. high sustained DPS and no need to tell them to attack stuff (like with Storm). It's a simple trade-off I suppose. | ||
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