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On July 10 2012 19:40 Micket wrote:
I don't really see the need to get reapers as fast as you do. What's wrong with getting reapers after expand? Also, is it worth getting 3 reapers? The drone killing potential of reapers is pretty bad anyway so I don't particularly see the point of getting 3, especially since you aren't losing them to slow lings any time soon.
you get them for, map control, scouting, scouting deniel, light harass, early third deniel. I dont know what time you wann get them them, but some 2base roach times hit as early as 6min~. So if you build your first reaper at 5min you will have like 20seconds to react.
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Hi,
I really enjoyed this guide but I do not have the time today to read the comments. However, I wanted to ask you some questions:
-what do you think of reapers in the late game ( when you have a lot of gaz)? It is only 1 pop; good agaisnt speedlings and building and great harass unit.
-do you ever research their speed ?
-Is there some cases when you prefer the research the +1 attack?
-What do you think about putting a "QXC" bunker (withunder the natural of the zerg to limit the expansion of the creep?
If you already answer to those question, no need to do it another time  .
Thanks.
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On July 11 2012 04:05 Skyblueone wrote:Hi, I really enjoyed this guide but I do not have the time today to read the comments. However, I wanted to ask you some questions: -what do you think of reapers in the late game ( when you have a lot of gaz)? It is only 1 pop; good agaisnt speedlings and building and great harass unit. -do you ever research their speed ? -Is there some cases when you prefer the research the +1 attack? -What do you think about putting a "QXC" bunker (withunder the natural of the zerg to limit the expansion of the creep? If you already answer to those question, no need to do it another time . Thanks.
Hey, the problem i find with using reapers late game is their build time, if you only have small numbers of reapers seedlings do very well against them, and to get large numbers you are going to have to be ok not being maxed for a large amount of time while they build. I do like using them lategame in tvp, but i haven't found them terribly useful in tvz.
I don not research their speed in this build, though i used to do a more cheesy mass reaper build that did involve speed.
In TvZ i like +1 armor first because in small numbers it is the more cost effective upgrade. Attack upgrades scale better as your army gets larger and with stim. However Because of the late medivacs in this build you really can't afford to be stiming your troops too much anyways, so i prefer combat shield and +1 armor in the early game.
I do like the qxc bunker but not really for this build. It is pretty well optimized and throwing up extra bunkers that early means delaying your marine production and moving your push back. Also i find that if i save some scans, i can often clear all the creep of the map with the 8 min push i do against the mass queen build.
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On July 10 2012 18:48 TheAwesomeAll wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 11:06 Komentaja wrote:On July 07 2012 15:30 Jombozeus wrote:Why do people say they are high masters when they are 587 points on ladder? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2188016/Micromancer3 bonus pool. (taken from ingame ladder search) Current bonus pool total: 318. 587+3-318 = 272. 272 points above diamond. In comparison GM is 770 points above diamond (roughly). That's low-mid master in my book... People have already picked apart your build, I'm just here to show that almost everyone who posts saying they're high masters is either lying or have very wacky judgments. It's easy enough to just draw a line at the Top 25 mark in your league. That is the top 25% of masters -- high masters in my book. He is #24 according to the sc2ranks. There is no official ruling on what high masters is (...), though, so I agree that people should not say "I am High Masters", and instead should say things like, "I am in the top 25 of my master's league" or "I have x ladder points in masters". BTW I would like to try out your build. I was using a similar 3 reaper opening a few months ago, but didn't have all the paths well figured out. I kept losing to baneling busts, which your guide addresses with a few tips I didn't think of. Your guide eems like an alright game plan. this is completely wrong, even if divisions were completely random (which they arent) and we presume he doesnt have an easy division, divisions mostly reward activity. Just being active is definitely enough to get top 50 and often enough to get top 25. That being said divisions arent random but try to find people of similar mmr (skill) together so that activity is even more rewarded then it already would be. For example to be top 8 in my division you need 1000 points but to be top 8 in micromancers division you need 800 points. The downside with saying "i have x points" is that now that would be pretty high master it would be mid in 2 months, especially when writing guides with the intention to be read by future generations that comes into play.
I dont know if this simplifies anything for anyone complaining that im not high enough masters to be considered high masters but here is a stat off of sc2ranks.:
World rank
Master: #3,243 (9.07% of 35,737, 91st percentile)
Region rank
Master: #1,283 (8.48% of 15,132, 92nd percentile)
Those percentiles are for just the masters league, if your going to rip my head off for calling myself high masters when i'm in the top 10% of the league Im going to say that you are being way too picky.
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Any competent zerg will follow up 3 reapers with some appearance of aggression in which case you have to overreact or you just lose to any kind of bane or roach ling bust. (unless you want to keep your 2nd cc in your main until 10 minutes)
The zerg can just show that they are capable of bane ling or roach ling all inning and watching to see how you react. If you don't react. They make units and roll you over. If you react they get a free 3rd and a ton of drones.
I don't think a zerg will complain either way. Especially with the new overlord speed. They can scout your base free until your first marine comes out 2 minutes later than normal.
Opening with 1 reaper and using your scouting worker to start some sim city around the zerg natural is a much more safe way to open. You're just as likely to kill 2 drones or deny mining time with 1 reaper and 1 scv (while keeping them alive) as you are to kill 2 drones with 3 reapers at a later time. Let alone deny mining time.
With the extremely late speed timings that seem to be popular 1 reaper can deny the map just as well as 3 can.
1 reaper is likely to do just as much damage as 3, it gets your tech up faster, you have more units and the zerg can't force you into a catch-22.
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On July 12 2012 04:18 HungrySC2 wrote:
Any competent zerg will follow up 3 reapers with some appearance of aggression in which case you have to overreact or you just lose to any kind of bane or roach ling bust. (unless you want to keep your 2nd cc in your main until 10 minutes)
The zerg can just show that they are capable of bane ling or roach ling all inning and watching to see how you react. If you don't react. They make units and roll you over. If you react they get a free 3rd and a ton of drones.
I don't think a zerg will complain either way. Especially with the new overlord speed. They can scout your base free until your first marine comes out 2 minutes later than normal.
Opening with 1 reaper and using your scouting worker to start some sim city around the zerg natural is a much more safe way to open. You're just as likely to kill 2 drones or deny mining time with 1 reaper and 1 scv (while keeping them alive) as you are to kill 2 drones with 3 reapers at a later time. Let alone deny mining time.
With the extremely late speed timings that seem to be popular 1 reaper can deny the map just as well as 3 can.
1 reaper is likely to do just as much damage as 3, it gets your tech up faster, you have more units and the zerg can't force you into a catch-22.
You are more than able to hold a roach or baneling all in at your natural, so it is not a matter of when you get your natural as when you get your third, The three reapers allows you significantly more map control than one and its that kind of thing, along with some well placed scans that will allow you to see what the zerg is producing and if he wants to commit to an all in or if he is faking. You can react by throwing down extra bunkers if he shows the potential to do a bust, knowing your upgrades are then going to give you an advantage in the mid game beacuse a zerg can't really fake a baneling bust well they have two evo chambers pumping away....
Also by the time the zerg sees three reapers, if they switch to a baneling tech rout then it isn't going to finish in time to put any kind of pressure on before the push hits them. You cannot open gas less mass queen style, then see 3 reapers around the 6:30 min mark, take your gas at that point, and then mine enough to do a strong baneling push. Hell if you take your gas when you see the three reapers you are barely going to have enough to make defensive banelings, much less aggressive ones.
Yes if you misread your opponent you can get into trouble but that is why scouting is important in this game.
And about the three reapers, i have had multiple games where the 3 reapers will get 40+ kills. They are a very important part of the push. You treat them kind of like stalkers in a zealot stalker combo. The reapers are there to do damage well your rallied marines are there to act as a buffer, once you start applying the pressure if you micro your reapers to keep them alive over the course of the entire push they will do an incredible amount of dps. Lots of people seem to be misreading the purpose of the reapers, they are not to get early drone kills, they are there to kill lings, and burst down spine crawlers, and deny supper fast thirds. Drones are just a bonus. Please watch the replays because you obviously haven't.
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I agree with those saying the 3 reapers is kinda overkill. I also feel like you don't need to get the tech lab until after the first marine, as the first reaper is only going to get a kill or two on small 2 player maps like Ohana. The other 2 reapers are kinda useless anyway IMO.
Anyway, here's a comparison of timings for reaper expands from my notes:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gbA5L.png)
This gives you a basic relation of exactly when you can hit the marine pressure with the cs / stim timing (based on keeping to 1 gas, and getting cs / stim both from 1 tech lab).
The follow-up can vary a lot (5 naked rax, or 2 rax reactor + tech, or 3 rax reactor) and probably wants some playing around to see which you like best and fits with the selected timing. (Or you could do things the other way and pick one of the expands based on what pressure / follow-up you want).
Hopefully that's useful to other people looking to do reaper expand into bio pressure.
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Before posting, please actually try out the build and watch the replays! I've been testing this build the past 3 days with amazing results (although I've never faced an all-in yet though). The 3 reapers are absolutely necessary! They absolutely destroy lings, which is the most common response from zerg, and allows you to destroy sunkens very quickly! If you don't have 3 reapers, the zerg will also be able to take their third much faster! It takes forever for one reaper to kill a building hatchery!
Even when the zerg knows what I am doing, and goes banelings or roaches, I find myself even with zerg since they have to spend so much larvae on units and by the end of my push, I have a third up already. Very nice build MicroMancer. I have went from 25% TVZ win rate to a 60% one in just 2 days =)
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No zerg in their right mind would delay gas until after the 3rd reaper is finished.
Any competent zerg WILL throw down their gas much earlier. If a zerg scouts reaper first and an expansion and don't take gas as soon as their first 2 queens start or earlier. They deserve to die.
Suddenly this build will stop working if you get high enough in the ladder. You'll be seeing gas as soon as they scout the tech lab with no marines and a CC. Then once you show 3 reapers you've pretty much made the zergs day.
You'll be busy dying to early 2-base all-ins, or trying to catch up with fully saturated, 3 base zergs will rounded out tech. And the zerg will know exactly how you are going to try to punish them for it because they have full scouting info. Overlord is GOOD unit.
I learned this from a grandmaster zerg in playhem more than 6 months ago. He crushed me and after I asked about the game he was nice enough to explain why opening with 3 reapers was so bad. I refused to believe. I thought there was some kind of follow-up that made it work, but there isn't one. 3 reapers isn't something that Terran can make viable, but it IS something that zerg can punish. It's not because your build is good. It's because the zergs you are playing don't understand why its bad and how to punish it.
Being successful with this build is a whole lot different than it actually being viable. It is successful because the zergs you are playing don't understand why the build is bad, or just believe that they can delay speed and sit behind queens till kingdom come even after scouting a cc, tech lab, and no marines. It's just bad play by the zerg.
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On July 12 2012 05:31 MiThiK wrote:
Before posting, please actually try out the build and watch the replays! I've been testing this build the past 3 days with amazing results (although I've never faced an all-in yet though). The 3 reapers are absolutely necessary! They absolutely destroy lings, which is the most common response from zerg, and allows you to destroy sunkens very quickly! If you don't have 3 reapers, the zerg will also be able to take their third much faster! It takes forever for one reaper to kill a building hatchery!
I've watched the replays and played around with both 1 and 3 reapers, and I still think that 1 reaper is as good as 3 for early map control. One reaper kills a few slow lings well enough with micro, while letting you get the early CC due to the long build time, which is really the point of reaper expanding. If you get several reapers, you get CS and stim later. Maybe that fits with your timing, and the reapers do kill lings nicely, but I think that fitting with the timing should be the reason to get them, not denying a third / killing spines (because neither of those will happen vs a competent zerg).
Really what I'm getting at is that the 3 reapers are just one option, and maybe not the best. You can do perfectly well with just 1 reaper and have a stronger / earlier timing because of it, or better / earlier tech if you so desire.
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On July 12 2012 06:59 HungrySC2 wrote:
No zerg in their right mind would delay gas until after the 3rd reaper is finished.
Any competent zerg WILL throw down their gas much earlier. If a zerg scouts reaper first and an expansion and don't take gas as soon as their first 2 queens start or earlier. They deserve to die.
Suddenly this build will stop working if you get high enough in the ladder. You'll be seeing gas as soon as they scout the tech lab with no marines and a CC. Then once you show 3 reapers you've pretty much made the zergs day.
You'll be busy dying to early 2-base all-ins, or trying to catch up with fully saturated, 3 base zergs will rounded out tech. And the zerg will know exactly how you are going to try to punish them for it because they have full scouting info. Overlord is GOOD unit.
I learned this from a grandmaster zerg in playhem more than 6 months ago. He crushed me and after I asked about the game he was nice enough to explain why opening with 3 reapers was so bad. I refused to believe. I thought there was some kind of follow-up that made it work, but there isn't one. 3 reapers isn't something that Terran can make viable, but it IS something that zerg can punish. It's not because your build is good. It's because the zergs you are playing don't understand why its bad and how to punish it.
Being successful with this build is a whole lot different than it actually being viable. It is successful because the zergs you are playing don't understand why the build is bad, or just believe that they can delay speed and sit behind queens till kingdom come even after scouting a cc, tech lab, and no marines. It's just bad play by the zerg.
Ok, to start with cut the once you get high enough on the ladder crap, i play GMs now and then, not consistantly but my MMR is high enough that its not unusual for me to play them once or twice a day. You say no zerg in their right mind will delay gas untill after the third reaper is out, but how are they supposed to know you are making three reapers? There are plenty of builds as you say that only make one, i usually only show one untill the third reaper is out, so a zerg not taking a fast gas is not an unreasonable assumption. The reapers deny ling scouting and your first marines are out in time to deny overlords from scouting the reactors going down on your 3 racks. I developed the build working with a GM zerg who was in my clan, frostSwarm, you can look him up if you are so inclined. I consistently beat high ranking zergs with it who are most assuredly not bad. You can theory craft all you want but i have tested it, held those 2 base all ins you say are going to kill me, killed the greedy thirds that i'm supposed to be behind of, and come back from behind with my mid and late game play when my opening has not played out as i would have hoped. I don't know if you realized but the game is hardly in the state it was 6 months ago....
Man, people complain that they can't win tvz, they try the same reactor hellion openings from seasons ago, over and over again, they see something new that is working, and instead of trying it out, seeing how it works, problem solving issues it has, they just theory craft some reason why it won't work, and go back to making hellions....
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the main point of the 3 reapers is if the zerg DOESNT have speed in time to deal with them, they are extremely powerful and the zerg cant make a third before 7:30
and if the zerg DOES have speed in time to deal with them, the reapers already sorta paid off economically because the zerg getting speed itself means the zerg hurt his economy to get that speed
as far as build goes, id honestly say this seems viable because it gets a fast expansion and then starts applying lots of pressure with the marines.
so you gotta look at both scenarios. how strong are the reapers in each scenario?
if the zerg doesnt get speed, then the reapers mean he has no third until 8 minutes unless he makes like 12 slowlings which is itself economic damage
if the zerg does have speed in time, that itself is causing economic damage to the zerg. then the zerg has to fight the 7 marines every 25 seconds which start pumping at around 7 minutes with 3reapers in the back to fight lings
the reapers as long as you just keep them alive are at this point a very high damage dealer against zerglings meaning the zerg needs to hurt himself economically and invest into banelings to really be safe here
think about this hypothetically. If the OP played DRG, he would most likely be in a position where he is even with DRG in the midgame, and then he gets raped in the lategame because DRG is the better player mechanically and strategically. Does that mean the builds bad? no, id say theres probably only a couple builds that would let you get even with DRG in the midgame and this could probably be one of them. the reapers provide a strength where the zerg has to invest alot of money early to fight the 150/150 investment from the terran
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On July 12 2012 07:21 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 05:31 MiThiK wrote:
Before posting, please actually try out the build and watch the replays! I've been testing this build the past 3 days with amazing results (although I've never faced an all-in yet though). The 3 reapers are absolutely necessary! They absolutely destroy lings, which is the most common response from zerg, and allows you to destroy sunkens very quickly! If you don't have 3 reapers, the zerg will also be able to take their third much faster! It takes forever for one reaper to kill a building hatchery!
I've watched the replays and played around with both 1 and 3 reapers, and I still think that 1 reaper is as good as 3 for early map control. One reaper kills a few slow lings well enough with micro, while letting you get the early CC due to the long build time, which is really the point of reaper expanding. If you get several reapers, you get CS and stim later. Maybe that fits with your timing, and the reapers do kill lings nicely, but I think that fitting with the timing should be the reason to get them, not denying a third / killing spines (because neither of those will happen vs a competent zerg). Really what I'm getting at is that the 3 reapers are just one option, and maybe not the best. You can do perfectly well with just 1 reaper and have a stronger / earlier timing because of it, or better / earlier tech if you so desire.
I agree that this is hardly the only way to play, and that there are many different branches and the rout i take is the one i prefer. I think you are misunderstanding some of my points however. They are mainly made to fit in with my timing, when i talk about denying the third i do not mean, killing a building third, but the mere fact that you have 3 reapers out will prevent a good zerg from placing a 3rd down untill he has creep and queens at it. It denys them from making the super fast 3rd base without necessarily having to kill it. And when i talk about killing spines, i do not mean using the reapers independently to pick of spine crawlers, but using their crazy dps building attack during your push to burst spine crawlers down. Which they are more than capable of with marine buffer. A lot of people seem to be misinterpreting their purpose and thinking they need to be used for alot of early harass, but i stress the most important part is keeping them alive for your push.
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On July 12 2012 13:40 ajkayken wrote:
the main point of the 3 reapers is if the zerg DOESNT have speed in time to deal with them, they are extremely powerful and the zerg cant make a third before 7:30
and if the zerg DOES have speed in time to deal with them, the reapers already sorta paid off economically because the zerg getting speed itself means the zerg hurt his economy to get that speed
as far as build goes, id honestly say this seems viable because it gets a fast expansion and then starts applying lots of pressure with the marines.
so you gotta look at both scenarios. how strong are the reapers in each scenario?
if the zerg doesnt get speed, then the reapers mean he has no third until 8 minutes unless he makes like 12 slowlings which is itself economic damage
if the zerg does have speed in time, that itself is causing economic damage to the zerg. then the zerg has to fight the 7 marines every 25 seconds which start pumping at around 7 minutes with 3reapers in the back to fight lings
the reapers as long as you just keep them alive are at this point a very high damage dealer against zerglings meaning the zerg needs to hurt himself economically and invest into banelings to really be safe here
think about this hypothetically. If the OP played DRG, he would most likely be in a position where he is even with DRG in the midgame, and then he gets raped in the lategame because DRG is the better player mechanically and strategically. Does that mean the builds bad? no, id say theres probably only a couple builds that would let you get even with DRG in the midgame and this could probably be one of them. the reapers provide a strength where the zerg has to invest alot of money early to fight the 150/150 investment from the terran
Yes! finally some understanding! You can use the reapers for multiple purposes depending on how the zerg reacts. If he goes gasless, you get map control, you get to deny his third with reapers, you then get a very strong timing push at his third once the marines come out, if he gets speedlings, you have a very fast third of your own, which you can secure against speedlings with reapers in a bunker. The fact that he went for speed instead of the gasless queen style means his own third will be slightly delayed in this case, possibly giving you an eco advantage. If he tries to go for an all in, again you need to throw up a bunch of bunkers, but once the banelings are delt with the reapers can clean up almost any amount of lings left over.
People get way to hung up on what the "standard is". For example: Yes siege tanks are good at holding off banelings, are they the only way though? problem solve it, can you find a way to make it work with the units you have? I find that with my build i need to throw down excessive amounts of bunkers to survive a committed roach baneling all in. I am spending minerals i would not have to spend if i had siege tanks out. However because i am going bio I have more gas, for faster upgrades. It leads to a very strong, highly upgraded, drop focused mid game once you survive the all in. Which has its own advantages. Essentially i am devoting minerals instead of gas to surviving the all in, well committing that gas to a stronger mid or late game.
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On July 12 2012 05:31 MiThiK wrote:
Before posting, please actually try out the build and watch the replays! I've been testing this build the past 3 days with amazing results (although I've never faced an all-in yet though). The 3 reapers are absolutely necessary! They absolutely destroy lings, which is the most common response from zerg, and allows you to destroy sunkens very quickly! If you don't have 3 reapers, the zerg will also be able to take their third much faster! It takes forever for one reaper to kill a building hatchery!
Even when the zerg knows what I am doing, and goes banelings or roaches, I find myself even with zerg since they have to spend so much larvae on units and by the end of my push, I have a third up already. Very nice build MicroMancer. I have went from 25% TVZ win rate to a 60% one in just 2 days =)
<3 Thank you, im really glad you are enjoying it!
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siege tanks are the only way to survive the baneling bust from the zerg who was allowed to get 3 fast bases
the reapers deny that however making the zerg have to get speed before his third
also i wonder. it may be possible to get a second techlab instead of a reactor and instead of making 17 marines a minute, you make 4 marauders and 9 marines a minute. this force is a hell of alot stronger against banelings (the only real counter to you) but requires 100 gas a minute to sustain slowing your medivac tech but it could be worth it
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On July 10 2012 16:11 jaebigdong wrote:
sorry if i don't understand, but what is the reasoning to get +1 armor before +1 attack ?
If Z goes Mass queens, +1 armour reduces their 2 attack animation, with no incoming medivacs, the push works better with +1 Armour then 1+ attack.
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I don't understand the naysayers ... Micromancer comes up with a nice build and wants people to prove if it's viable ( fool around with it/improve it) .. and all ppl do are putting this strat down saying the zergs that Micromancer played sucked or attack Micromancer's credibility. The whole idea of the build is to expand and deny the zerg's fast 3rd or fast creep spread that comes with the 6 queen openings. All ins and other strategies of course have to be dealt with accordingly ... transitioning into another type of TvZ. Alot also depends on how good your reaper micro is as well.
Pls post replays in this thread where you used this strat to the Zerg and lost ... so we can dissect and analyze the execution of the strategy. It's very important to scout with those reapers whether the gases have been taken or not .. whether the zerg wants to play 3 base vs 2 base or just 2 base all in. It's the Terran's job to transition into all in defense if an all in is detected or percieved.
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Thank you Micromancer for this build, i've been using an MM push @ 9:30 with CC and Stim, but i always felt it arrived late, but this build? Its so good against the zergs i play (Masters EU). I've used the build about 15 times now and won over 10 games, the ones that i lost where clearly mistakes being made from my side that i could improve upon. I've never seen so much zerg rage in my life, and i've never noticed how inhumanly strong reapers are when they get free shots off.
I actually consider the marine push @8:30 merely an opening, instead of it being the actual build itself. With that many marines i can choose to defend any kind of all in or just kill his third and have an advantage going into the mid game. Since i always went bio i've never had a problem holding all ins with just rines & bunkers.
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On July 07 2012 15:30 Jombozeus wrote:Why do people say they are high masters when they are 587 points on ladder? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2188016/Micromancer3 bonus pool. (taken from ingame ladder search) Current bonus pool total: 318. 587+3-318 = 272. 272 points above diamond. In comparison GM is 770 points above diamond (roughly). That's low-mid master in my book... People have already picked apart your build, I'm just here to show that almost everyone who posts saying they're high masters is either lying or have very wacky judgments.
Maybe because according to that very link you posted, he is nearly top 1000 North America? Why so judgmental?
I like the creativity of your build OP. At the very least, it can be something tricky for your opponent to deal with.
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EPT
