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Basing myself on what I see in the fourth replay, a very strong reaction to this would be:
- start by going gasless as for the 6 queeens build;
- upon scouting reaper first, deviate and grab gas (around the 3 minutes mark, no queens produced yet);
- mine until 100 gas, getting ling speed, and take drones off gas afterwards; compensate for this by delaying or skipping a queen or two (so as to be able to get the third up anyway);
- scout with an overlord. Upon seeing the three raxes go down (about 5 minutes), resume taking gas;
- once you have at least 50 gas (25 seconds after starting to retake it), make a bane nest;
- at some time between the ~6:30 timing for the completion of the bane nest and the ~8:00 timing for the push, morph banelings. There's enough gas for about 10 banes by the 8 minutes mark.
The push would get crushed against this, so it cannot actually be executed. You're therefore forced to take a third.
At this point, would a ling/bling attack have a good chance of denying said third? Answers should preferably come with quantitative reasoning or (better) a replay. If the answer is "yes", then Z is the one who has the initiative now, which doesn't look that good.
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Used this a few times high NA ladder, works great on cloud kingdom because its so easy to jump up and check their gases.
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I think the combat shield marine push is the strongest part of this build, why not get a greedier expo (CC first or 1rax expo CC before depot) into reaper -> combat shield marine push? Or even skipping the reaper and going for a faster push with more upgraded marines?
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1st off, people calling this build coinflippy are a joke. All builds are coinflippy ESPECIALLY in tvz. how many times i cant tell you i push out with my combat shield push (similar to this one, only 3 barracks though. and MKP does it like a TON in tvz) where i just die to an all in because i wasn't sure but decided to push out anyways. how many times have you seen terrans dying to 10 roaches with 2 hellions and a banshee and 3 OC's already done? lol. everything is coinflip, don't disregard getting 4 structures to make basic infantry units just because of that.
2nd off, op, MKP does this build sort of, i would know cause i copy it crazy. but he does 1 barracks, 16 CC, rax rax, gas, bunker, 2nd gas, 3rd CC and pokes at combatshields(he gets shields first). its a good poke, but you need to make sure yuou aren't going to die because you do it. good zergs will mass lings and banes, kil your army and then counter for a free win so it's 100000000% crucial you kill all overlords and hide barracks.
On July 08 2012 22:55 ( bush wrote:
I think the combat shield marine push is the strongest part of this build, why not get a greedier expo (CC first or 1rax expo CC before depot) into reaper -> combat shield marine push? Or even skipping the reaper and going for a faster push with more upgraded marines?
i agree but, i think cc first into pure marines is really bad unless you go to like 5 or 6 barracks before gas becuase if you go cc first and dont make hellins (instead going for reactors and quick shields or just shields and naked barracks pumping) you actually will die to like every kind of bane bust lol
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On July 07 2012 15:30 Jombozeus wrote:Why do people say they are high masters when they are 587 points on ladder? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2188016/Micromancer3 bonus pool. (taken from ingame ladder search) Current bonus pool total: 318. 587+3-318 = 272. 272 points above diamond. In comparison GM is 770 points above diamond (roughly). That's low-mid master in my book... People have already picked apart your build, I'm just here to show that almost everyone who posts saying they're high masters is either lying or have very wacky judgments.
so really you're here to say nothing useful?
User was warned for this post
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On July 08 2012 11:06 Komentaja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 15:30 Jombozeus wrote:Why do people say they are high masters when they are 587 points on ladder? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2188016/Micromancer3 bonus pool. (taken from ingame ladder search) Current bonus pool total: 318. 587+3-318 = 272. 272 points above diamond. In comparison GM is 770 points above diamond (roughly). That's low-mid master in my book... People have already picked apart your build, I'm just here to show that almost everyone who posts saying they're high masters is either lying or have very wacky judgments. It's easy enough to just draw a line at the Top 25 mark in your league. That is the top 25% of masters -- high masters in my book. He is #24 according to the sc2ranks. There is no official ruling on what high masters is (...), though, so I agree that people should not say "I am High Masters", and instead should say things like, "I am in the top 25 of my master's league" or "I have x ladder points in masters". BTW I would like to try out your build. I was using a similar 3 reaper opening a few months ago, but didn't have all the paths well figured out. I kept losing to baneling busts, which your guide addresses with a few tips I didn't think of. Your guide eems like an alright game plan.
Just because you're in the top 25 of your division doesn't mean you are in the top 25% of masters.
Hell on an alt account I just did my placement matches into a new masters division and I'm ranked 3rd! I must be in the top 3% of masters!
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On July 09 2012 05:26 c0sm0naut wrote:1st off, people calling this build coinflippy are a joke. All builds are coinflippy ESPECIALLY in tvz. how many times i cant tell you i push out with my combat shield push (similar to this one, only 3 barracks though. and MKP does it like a TON in tvz) where i just die to an all in because i wasn't sure but decided to push out anyways. how many times have you seen terrans dying to 10 roaches with 2 hellions and a banshee and 3 OC's already done? lol. everything is coinflip, don't disregard getting 4 structures to make basic infantry units just because of that. 2nd off, op, MKP does this build sort of, i would know cause i copy it crazy. but he does 1 barracks, 16 CC, rax rax, gas, bunker, 2nd gas, 3rd CC and pokes at combatshields(he gets shields first). its a good poke, but you need to make sure yuou aren't going to die because you do it. good zergs will mass lings and banes, kil your army and then counter for a free win so it's 100000000% crucial you kill all overlords and hide barracks. Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 22:55 ( bush wrote:
I think the combat shield marine push is the strongest part of this build, why not get a greedier expo (CC first or 1rax expo CC before depot) into reaper -> combat shield marine push? Or even skipping the reaper and going for a faster push with more upgraded marines? i agree but, i think cc first into pure marines is really bad unless you go to like 5 or 6 barracks before gas becuase if you go cc first and dont make hellins (instead going for reactors and quick shields or just shields and naked barracks pumping) you actually will die to like every kind of bane bust lol
This strat is a coinflip. There are other strats that are not a coinflip. Many strats, greedy or not, have available reactions to stop all ins, or at least survive enough to come back with a nice counter attack. MKP's attack is NOT a coinflip, because he does not waste 150/150 on reapers, and thus gets a pretty good stim timing and has his medivacs coming out VERY quickly compared to this strat. Post 10 minute stim and 15 minute medivacs means you are COMPLETELY relying on your pressure to do serious damage, and the fact that if they are going heavy ling/bane you lose badly, makes this a coinflip.
The reason this build is a coinflip is because of the reaper cost and time they take to produce, and you did not even mention that in your post. Your assessment that "everything is a coinflip in tvz" is just plain wrong. There are plenty of builds with a much better ability to wiggle out of pressure and survive into the mid game by reacting to what the zerg is doing. MKP's build you are referring to and this build are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND NOT SIMILAR IN ANY WAY because of the HUGE investment to reapers that puts everything else way behind. Just because they both include a combat shield push does not mean they are at all similar when it comes to being a coinflip or not.
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Will try this out, very nice games, watched them all! I should add that this playstyle is very fun to both watch and play, great work 
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On July 09 2012 06:15 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 11:06 Komentaja wrote:On July 07 2012 15:30 Jombozeus wrote:Why do people say they are high masters when they are 587 points on ladder? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2188016/Micromancer3 bonus pool. (taken from ingame ladder search) Current bonus pool total: 318. 587+3-318 = 272. 272 points above diamond. In comparison GM is 770 points above diamond (roughly). That's low-mid master in my book... People have already picked apart your build, I'm just here to show that almost everyone who posts saying they're high masters is either lying or have very wacky judgments. It's easy enough to just draw a line at the Top 25 mark in your league. That is the top 25% of masters -- high masters in my book. He is #24 according to the sc2ranks. There is no official ruling on what high masters is (...), though, so I agree that people should not say "I am High Masters", and instead should say things like, "I am in the top 25 of my master's league" or "I have x ladder points in masters". BTW I would like to try out your build. I was using a similar 3 reaper opening a few months ago, but didn't have all the paths well figured out. I kept losing to baneling busts, which your guide addresses with a few tips I didn't think of. Your guide eems like an alright game plan. Just because you're in the top 25 of your division doesn't mean you are in the top 25% of masters. Hell on an alt account I just did my placement matches into a new masters division and I'm ranked 3rd! I must be in the top 3% of masters!
I simplified, as most people will. Its a representative sample. There are very few new masters divisions and top 25 in any masters division is roughly top 25% masters.
Oh, and by roughly top 25%, I mean plus or minus 10%. In the North American ladder. In July of 2012. In the Midwest. ...Can you get more picky? Should I also put in a footnote saying that when I write masters, I mean masters after 121 games?
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3 reapers is definitely excess and a waste of money. I have had success with a single reaper expand. With the first reaper + scv doing a compulsory bunker pressure(forcing spine/delaying queen hurts more than hellion pressure of which hellion pressure does nothing). Afterwards I get double CC and take all gases asap. Do not place your CC at natural- this way you can hide it and zerg is less likely to all in. So basically I have only 1reaper then a marine then greedily get double CCs while cutting units entirely and rushing for dual port banshees. From there on transition into whatever you like.
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On July 09 2012 07:00 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 05:26 c0sm0naut wrote:1st off, people calling this build coinflippy are a joke. All builds are coinflippy ESPECIALLY in tvz. how many times i cant tell you i push out with my combat shield push (similar to this one, only 3 barracks though. and MKP does it like a TON in tvz) where i just die to an all in because i wasn't sure but decided to push out anyways. how many times have you seen terrans dying to 10 roaches with 2 hellions and a banshee and 3 OC's already done? lol. everything is coinflip, don't disregard getting 4 structures to make basic infantry units just because of that. 2nd off, op, MKP does this build sort of, i would know cause i copy it crazy. but he does 1 barracks, 16 CC, rax rax, gas, bunker, 2nd gas, 3rd CC and pokes at combatshields(he gets shields first). its a good poke, but you need to make sure yuou aren't going to die because you do it. good zergs will mass lings and banes, kil your army and then counter for a free win so it's 100000000% crucial you kill all overlords and hide barracks. On July 08 2012 22:55 ( bush wrote:
I think the combat shield marine push is the strongest part of this build, why not get a greedier expo (CC first or 1rax expo CC before depot) into reaper -> combat shield marine push? Or even skipping the reaper and going for a faster push with more upgraded marines? i agree but, i think cc first into pure marines is really bad unless you go to like 5 or 6 barracks before gas becuase if you go cc first and dont make hellins (instead going for reactors and quick shields or just shields and naked barracks pumping) you actually will die to like every kind of bane bust lol This strat is a coinflip. There are other strats that are not a coinflip. Many strats, greedy or not, have available reactions to stop all ins, or at least survive enough to come back with a nice counter attack. MKP's attack is NOT a coinflip, because he does not waste 150/150 on reapers, and thus gets a pretty good stim timing and has his medivacs coming out VERY quickly compared to this strat. Post 10 minute stim and 15 minute medivacs means you are COMPLETELY relying on your pressure to do serious damage, and the fact that if they are going heavy ling/bane you lose badly, makes this a coinflip. The reason this build is a coinflip is because of the reaper cost and time they take to produce, and you did not even mention that in your post. Your assessment that "everything is a coinflip in tvz" is just plain wrong. There are plenty of builds with a much better ability to wiggle out of pressure and survive into the mid game by reacting to what the zerg is doing. MKP's build you are referring to and this build are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND NOT SIMILAR IN ANY WAY because of the HUGE investment to reapers that puts everything else way behind. Just because they both include a combat shield push does not mean they are at all similar when it comes to being a coinflip or not.
1. didn't know he went 3 reapers, i didn't look at the build. i assumed the OP was only making one
2. that being considered this build is completely coinflip
3. i still think tvz builds are coinflip, especially bio pushes like this. if you don't think a 3 naked rax combat shield push vs a zerg at 8 min + a 2nd expo, no hellions and no siege tanks isn't coinflippy then honestl nothing is
thanks for the response though... it was kind of weirdly aggressive :D
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For what it's worth, I just played Micromancer, knew exactly what he was doing because of reading this guide, and still ended up dying to the lategame nuke transition. So this strat is highly viable, at least in my book.
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On July 09 2012 08:55 Komentaja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 06:15 -orb- wrote:On July 08 2012 11:06 Komentaja wrote:On July 07 2012 15:30 Jombozeus wrote:Why do people say they are high masters when they are 587 points on ladder? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2188016/Micromancer3 bonus pool. (taken from ingame ladder search) Current bonus pool total: 318. 587+3-318 = 272. 272 points above diamond. In comparison GM is 770 points above diamond (roughly). That's low-mid master in my book... People have already picked apart your build, I'm just here to show that almost everyone who posts saying they're high masters is either lying or have very wacky judgments. It's easy enough to just draw a line at the Top 25 mark in your league. That is the top 25% of masters -- high masters in my book. He is #24 according to the sc2ranks. There is no official ruling on what high masters is (...), though, so I agree that people should not say "I am High Masters", and instead should say things like, "I am in the top 25 of my master's league" or "I have x ladder points in masters". BTW I would like to try out your build. I was using a similar 3 reaper opening a few months ago, but didn't have all the paths well figured out. I kept losing to baneling busts, which your guide addresses with a few tips I didn't think of. Your guide eems like an alright game plan. Just because you're in the top 25 of your division doesn't mean you are in the top 25% of masters. Hell on an alt account I just did my placement matches into a new masters division and I'm ranked 3rd! I must be in the top 3% of masters! I simplified, as most people will. Its a representative sample. There are very few new masters divisions and top 25 in any masters division is roughly top 25% masters. Oh, and by roughly top 25%, I mean plus or minus 10%. In the North American ladder. In July of 2012. In the Midwest. ...Can you get more picky? Should I also put in a footnote saying that when I write masters, I mean masters after 121 games?
Completely absolutely ridiculously astonishingly untrue.
Depending on when the division was created as well as the activity of players within the division, your relative rank within division compared to the whole league can have huge amounts of disparity. Use points to compare Masters. In which case, this guy is barely mid Masters.
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this opening build is at its roots a 8 minute attack to kill the zergs fast third
BEYOND the opening build, the lategame plan is bio/tank/ghosts etc. However I think lategame and opening styles are two different things. Any opener can transition into many lategame styles.
So ill focus talk on the opener.
What are the elements of this opener?
Well, the early reapers mean the zerg has a hard time taking the third at 4-7 minutes (but zerg could just take a fast macro hatch and have insane production, get 75 drones then take his third instantly saturate it). Then at 8 minutes 7marines are streaming in every 25 seconds to kill the zergs third.
This certainly doesnt sound hard to deal with from the zergs standpoint. In the replays the zergs seemed to lose to it because they spend money before the 7 minute mark on things that were not optimal in strength. If the zerg gets 2 evo chambers and starts getting upgrades before 7 minutes thats a bad idea because the terrans putting all his money into army/marines and should overpower those upgrades.
regardless, 7 marines every 25 seconds at 8 minutes (sorta 8:15 by the time it hits) certainly doesnt seem that incredibly difficult to stop for a good zerg
but still. one can say they know a perfect way to play against an opener if they know exactly what that opener is. does that mean its not viable? who knows, because it seems strong against some zerg openers so ehh nothing wrong with experimenting
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Hey Micro!
Great build , been testing this out in masters aswell, It works really well .
Although I don't follow the end-game this build says, I do find the opening very successful.
1) Scouting is great, and you don't have to even send the scv , so get the econ boost at the beggining. '
2) Great for holding watch towers early on , and scouting for the all ins.
3) Can transition very smoothly into bio or marine tank,
4) Out right denies any early third from zerg.
Its been good so far, and mb i'll post some of my replays using it , with a different late game .
Also : Why is everyone saying wasting 150/150 on reapers is so bad. The reapers are soooo unbelievably good vs zerglings, and a main reason you build the reaper is because of its long production time , which allows your money to stockpile for a CC and 3 Rax. Getting the gas with a reaper expand slows your CC by about 15 seconds (2depotCC) or 30 seconds(1depotCC). But honestly ,its not a big deal at all , especially as terran , thats 1 scv your missing .
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sorry if i don't understand, but what is the reasoning to get +1 armor before +1 attack ?
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this buildorder agains 6queen opening, 8.30 timing atack is really deadly for zerg who does 6qeen 3hatch build, since at that time he have nothing. it doesnt seem to agresive or allin as some ppl suggest(getting down 3oc on minerals before 11-12min makes this really eco). About the part that zerg scouts you going heavy bio and decides to allin you, basicly gives you free win(reapers). If zerg does 6qeen build and scouts you, he would have to cut to like 35 drones to get enough speedling-bane/roach in time, good responce for zerg would be just getting extra spine and bunch of slow lings instead, he would still have to cut drones at about 40. Agains normal 2base zeg into infestor or muta into third this build puts you fairly even positions, not to mention if you recognize this you can just land in third faster, since he will play really defensive.
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On July 08 2012 11:06 Komentaja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 15:30 Jombozeus wrote:Why do people say they are high masters when they are 587 points on ladder? http://sc2ranks.com/us/2188016/Micromancer3 bonus pool. (taken from ingame ladder search) Current bonus pool total: 318. 587+3-318 = 272. 272 points above diamond. In comparison GM is 770 points above diamond (roughly). That's low-mid master in my book... People have already picked apart your build, I'm just here to show that almost everyone who posts saying they're high masters is either lying or have very wacky judgments. It's easy enough to just draw a line at the Top 25 mark in your league. That is the top 25% of masters -- high masters in my book. He is #24 according to the sc2ranks. There is no official ruling on what high masters is (...), though, so I agree that people should not say "I am High Masters", and instead should say things like, "I am in the top 25 of my master's league" or "I have x ladder points in masters". BTW I would like to try out your build. I was using a similar 3 reaper opening a few months ago, but didn't have all the paths well figured out. I kept losing to baneling busts, which your guide addresses with a few tips I didn't think of. Your guide eems like an alright game plan.
this is completely wrong, even if divisions were completely random (which they arent) and we presume he doesnt have an easy division, divisions mostly reward activity. Just being active is definitely enough to get top 50 and often enough to get top 25.
That being said divisions arent random but try to find people of similar mmr (skill) together so that activity is even more rewarded then it already would be. For example to be top 8 in my division you need 1000 points but to be top 8 in micromancers division you need 800 points.
The downside with saying "i have x points" is that now that would be pretty high master it would be mid in 2 months, especially when writing guides with the intention to be read by future generations that comes into play.
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On July 09 2012 16:27 ajkayken wrote:
this opening build is at its roots a 8 minute attack to kill the zergs fast third
BEYOND the opening build, the lategame plan is bio/tank/ghosts etc. However I think lategame and opening styles are two different things. Any opener can transition into many lategame styles.
So ill focus talk on the opener.
What are the elements of this opener?
Well, the early reapers mean the zerg has a hard time taking the third at 4-7 minutes (but zerg could just take a fast macro hatch and have insane production, get 75 drones then take his third instantly saturate it). Then at 8 minutes 7marines are streaming in every 25 seconds to kill the zergs third.
This certainly doesnt sound hard to deal with from the zergs standpoint. In the replays the zergs seemed to lose to it because they spend money before the 7 minute mark on things that were not optimal in strength. If the zerg gets 2 evo chambers and starts getting upgrades before 7 minutes thats a bad idea because the terrans putting all his money into army/marines and should overpower those upgrades.
regardless, 7 marines every 25 seconds at 8 minutes (sorta 8:15 by the time it hits) certainly doesnt seem that incredibly difficult to stop for a good zerg
but still. one can say they know a perfect way to play against an opener if they know exactly what that opener is. does that mean its not viable? who knows, because it seems strong against some zerg openers so ehh nothing wrong with experimenting
getting inbase 3hatch and 75drones is even worse than 3base 75drones agains this build, i dont know what you are smoking. The build with third inbase hatch is complety diffenrt build, than 6queen build, first of you get gas, and you cut drones at about 45-50, and then mass lings with upgrades, to destroy any timings that terran can do, then you get third, saturate it really fast, since you will have 4hatches.
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I don't really see the need to get reapers as fast as you do. What's wrong with getting reapers after expand? Also, is it worth getting 3 reapers? The drone killing potential of reapers is pretty bad anyway so I don't particularly see the point of getting 3, especially since you aren't losing them to slow lings any time soon.
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EPT
