EPTYes, sometimes, people lose because they didn't macro well enough but sometimes they want to know how to deal with a certain composition more efficiently so that next time they see it, even if their macro still fails them, they'd at least have a better chance because they have a better composition against that.
[D] Why us lower level players hate "macro better" - Page 3
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mage36
415 Posts
Yes, sometimes, people lose because they didn't macro well enough but sometimes they want to know how to deal with a certain composition more efficiently so that next time they see it, even if their macro still fails them, they'd at least have a better chance because they have a better composition against that. | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
That said instead of doing the same 1 base builds which will get you wins its better in the long run to identify you biggest weakness and just work on that for 5-10 games. Also expanding early at specific timings and focusing on constant worker production and not getting supply blocked while using hotkeys can improve you macro and ability to hold allins pretty fast. | ||
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sc2pal
Poland624 Posts
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stokes17
United States1411 Posts
idn, seems like you are misunderstanding the skill difference between bronze- mid masters, and misunderstanding exactly what a strat is. I believe unit comp falls under macro doesn't it? I really doubt anyone in the lower leagues is losing to an even half way decently executed strategy, so why would you discuss them? I know its really boring (I've played hundred if not thousands of vs AI games just perfecting builds) but you really need good mechanics (or at least decent) before you can worry about strategy | ||
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Huggenator
South Africa12 Posts
The more specific a question the more detailed an explanation can be given without losing the plot. If you ask what you did wrong in a match and your macro is not good then it will be pointed out since that IS actually the correct answer and was the overwhelming reason. If you fail a test what is the answer you are given by the teacher? Simply you didn't study enough and that is the truth 95% of the time. Not a perfect example but compare that with a thread worthy question that could sound like this: "At 12:54 in the replay we had basically the same value army. I knew I had to engage here since this was my only chance to have superior positioning. But I was wiped. I do not understand how I should flank the army in this position..." Then maybe throw in another example replay. Make some screenshots and ask for some tips on different maps. If someone then comes and says: "Macro More!" then that is not answering the question. Maybe we Golds don't really understand good positioning and we start to practice this while we still focus on macro (and know that we have to macro better) making the original question valid. Hell my post count shows that if you use the search function there might never be a need to ask questions until you reach masters. Then if you do ask questions and you could find the answer if you tried then you will have to take the "Macro-better" pill. I have improved greatly by really taking the generic macro-better advice to heart, reading the recommended threads sticky in the Strategy Forum and watching day 9. Peace. | ||
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rebotfc
United Kingdom144 Posts
I'm a platinum player (floating around rank 8 to 11), APM not very high, macro sometimes passable, sometimes really shitty. Versus protoss I 1:1:1, and usually win, however if P does a different strategy, say 1 gate expands, i find it much much harder. Here strategy is having an effect on a relatively low level game. Lets take another example, i am constantly practising 16 1,1 marine drop vs Z. It is a very tough build because if you slip at all your drop is delayed and they get mutas out. The main thing that kills me is if they econ 2 base baneling bust. To even get the build out on time my macro has to be very good, so any more isnt necessarily going to stop a baneling bust. What can do is a better understanding of scouting, how to tell hes going for a 2 base econ bust, etc. These things are not macro related. Strategy is interesting, i like trying something different strategy wise even if its not executed perfectly. | ||
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straycat
230 Posts
On October 06 2011 20:48 Sm3agol wrote: Watch Destiny beat tanks, thors, High templar, etc, with queens, even vs people that were trying to stream snipe him, and knew what he was doing, and would still lose. People often bring up Destiny's "experiment" in this context - "Destiny got to master's massing queens", etc - but I've seen those vods and Destiny actually did not reach very far with his mass queen macro build. In fact, I think he abandoned the notion in gold or even silver, taking back his own words about reaching plat or diamond through mass queens (i.e through macro only). | ||
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Suvorov
294 Posts
But instead of staying in that zone, you immediately jump to excuse mode and bombard yourself with the WHAT IF's. What if my opponent macroes just as good as I do? What if he microes better? We can grab all those excuses and simplify them into this: WHAT IF MY OPPONENT IS BETTER THAN I AM? And the answer is: A) You cry like 99% of ladder players, crumble under self-induced pressure and suck, learn nothing from the event, ragequit and uninstall sc2 B) You relax, try your best and take it easy when you lose. Sometimes, you will surprise yourself and win the match. Congratulations, you've learned and grown! In any case...don't forget it's a game, and don't forget you have the power to actually IGNORE what you're being told. God, everyone is just so sensitive to everything these days. You guys would melt with scbw's legendary trashtalk on the USEast server. | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
There's a reason every looks down on low tier players, and just tell them to macro(and micro) better, and not worry about strategies as much. Multiple top tier players have shown that that you can basically do WHATEVER you want at low levels, and as long as your macro and mechanics are good, you will win most of the time regardless of unit composition. Players have 4 gated, 6 pooled, mass queened, mass marined, etc all the way to diamond and sometimes even masters, just by simply outproducing and out microing their opponents. Watch Destiny beat tanks, thors, High templar, etc, with queens, even vs people that were trying to stream snipe him, and knew what he was doing, and would still lose. That's why high level players say ignore strategies and unit compositions for right now.....because IT DOESN'T MATTER. If you're worrying about unit compositions while you have 3k minerals at 15 minutes into the game, you're worrying about the wrong thing. Having 4 less stalkers and having 3 more zealots and 2 more sentries instead just might possibly win you the game. Converting the 1500 minerals you have at the 10 minute mark to stalkers, and it wouldn't matter what composition you had, you're going to rofl-stomp your opponent. i want to see a pro win vs fast DT playing zerg without a base trade and without getting any detection at all that's the things lower players have problems with, better macro wont help at all. Getting an overseer/spore crawler/infestor helps | ||
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Greth
Belgium318 Posts
I think people need to write down their definition of 'macro' and then look up what it really means. Kind of like the whole 'meta game' definition battle that went on a couple of weeks ago. I guess you could say macro is getting to the tactic or strategy of your choice, Micro is executing said strategy once your macro has built it. You can't 'strategy' your opponent to death. You can Micro him to death, but at the low levels it'll help to macro him instead. | ||
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AimlessAmoeba
Canada704 Posts
It's frustrating to hear the same advice over and over, and even if it is important, sometimes the less-skilled want to hear something else. | ||
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
On October 06 2011 22:51 Cirqueenflex wrote: i want to see a pro win vs fast DT playing zerg without a base trade and without getting any detection at all that's the things lower players have problems with, better macro wont help at all. Getting an overseer/spore crawler/infestor helps Obviously there are holes in just saying macro better. Bringing up cloaked units isn't actually proving you point too well though... almost everyone who plays Zerg should have detection built into their build to fend of 2 port banshee and DT openings. All I did to go from bronze to diamond in two months was know basic army compositions, watch vods of pros, try to keep my money as low as possible and strive to become better by playing X amount of games per day. I would say the biggest reason for jumping up so fast was due to focusing on my macro above all else and learning tidbits of strategy and timings along the way. Also when I say macro, I mean not getting supply blocked, constantly producing workers, expanding at the correct times, and keeping your money low. I think macro should always be the #1 priority at the start while eventually deliberately practicing micro and reading strategy from liquipedia (listening to some casters can also help your game knowlege of certain matchups). Either way, this is a game of economics first and foremost, if you can't gain money quick enough and spend it quick enough without worrying about micro, scouting, strategy, etc, then just think of how much harder it becomes after adding all that other stuff into your mental to do list. EDIT: By the way, my macro (while multitasking) still blows and is still the main thing holding me back from being master level player. | ||
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HellRush
Canada68 Posts
BUT, high plat and low diamond players are all cheesing me. I swear it'S worse than bronze league, every game (8 in a row now) i got either, 2 gate, cannon rushed, 6 pool, roach ling all ined( i usually dont have a probleme with that but still...), 11 pool, 1-1-1. Now yes i know, scouting, scouting, scouting. But my point is you need to be able to defend those kind of things ( and i consider myself realy bad at doing so xD ) even if you are in diamond/plat/gold league. It'S not something that can be solved with macro atleast not in my opinnion. | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
if you don't know how to sim city and place forcefields, you can FFE and have perfect macro and still lose every single time vs any allin/push there are so many points where you need additional experience/knowledge or you will simply lose. Pros playing with only one unit does prove nothing, they still have excellent scouting, really good micro, they know what to expect when etc take that away from them and they suddenly suck as well, even with good macro | ||
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InvXXVII
Canada242 Posts
Secondly, i think that you are failing to remember that ever master/gm was once a noob bronze player too. When we say "macro better", it's not that we dont understant your situation. It's because we understand your situation that we say that. Macro better IS the best advice we can give to ppl who are not amazing at multitasking and who havent mastered all the game mechanics yet. Thirdly, macroing does not simply imply making probes and pylons and keeping your money low. Macroing implies building units when youre not looking at your base (being able to stare at ur main and make units all day long is pretty useless). It also implies knowing the optimal amount of buildings for x number of bases and y number of probes. Macroing implies knowing the righ time to build this and the right time to build that. Say your strat is doig a two base timing push while taking your third for example. If you cant macro, your timing push will be too weak or too late. Even when all-in ing you need to know how to macro to some extent. The only all-ins that dont include macro per say woul be 2 rax scv all in, canon rush, 6 pool, proxy two gate. | ||
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kmh
Finland351 Posts
On October 06 2011 23:02 AimlessAmoeba wrote: It's frustrating to hear the same advice over and over, and even if it is important, sometimes the less-skilled want to hear something else. This is just the mentality that is holding them back. Practicing mechanics deliberately is hard work, but it is fundamental to the game. It's like a would-be pitcher wanting to learn how to throw curve balls when he can't even reach the plate half of the time. It would be utterly irresponsible for anyone to teach how to throw a curve before the student can accurately throw the ball on a mark every single time. Likewise, it is wrong to try to talk about the specifics of a matchup to a player who habitually floats 1000 minerals. You focus all his energy and focus on fixing that before you would even consider looking at anything else. Fundamentals are fundamental, and the difference between pros and amateur is not the flashy stuff, but rock-solid fundamentals. If someone resents hearing that they have weak fundamentals, it betrays quite a bit of their attitude and mentality regarding the game. | ||
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
On October 06 2011 23:19 Cirqueenflex wrote: my point is - even if you could have had 5 more mutalisks with better macro, a-click into upgraded archons will still kill them and lose you the game. Same goes for mass ling bling into a wall of forcefields, corruptors against void rays in equal numbers etc if you don't know how to sim city and place forcefields, you can FFE and have perfect macro and still lose every single time vs any allin/push there are so many points where you need additional experience/knowledge or you will simply lose. Pros playing with only one unit does prove nothing, they still have excellent scouting, really good micro, they know what to expect when etc take that away from them and they suddenly suck as well, even with good macro You are still missing the point, no one said to macro and just a-move. Mutalisks are a horrible example to use too, because in ZvP mutas are used no in direct confrontations whatsoever (not until you HAVE to). They are used to poke and prod their base and keep them stuck at home. I think anyone can make up the examples you are trying to say. What if I make 30 more lings against only zealot archon and a move...macro wouldn't help me here. The matter at hand is that low level players still 1 base carrier rush or do random builds that are bad. I've watched a ton of replays of bronze to gold level players building nonsensical units and don't have the ability to know what the go-to army compositions are in each match up. Most people who are looking to develop at a faster rate are going to find out the army compositions before playing a single game and are going to try to play pro styles while learning to macro as well as possible. | ||
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Swiftly
Iceland160 Posts
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