On August 26 2011 17:05 sleepingdog wrote: You forget to use the [G] tag - always lable your threads properly please, as it is explained in the strategy forum guidelines
Will look into the reps definitely - what do you think, could a one gate robo 3 gate fast immortals attack be threatening? I've seen whitera do something like that vs an early expand....cannons are quite useless if the immortal user is capable of rightlicking ze cannons and scouting a tech opening could possibly mislead you to play it more greedy? In the lights of upcoming 1.4. I think most of your future investigation should be focussed upon one gate robo and 3 gate robo builds...I assume that few people will blink rush in the future. Overall it looks very promising - even though 1.4. will reset PvP anyways, so expect lots of crazy going on there soon
What are you serious? I can't imagine 1.4 "resetting PvP" it's way too early to tell.
"Reset" doesn't necessarily mean that old builds will be useless!
Reset means that each and every build will have to ge re-evaluated due to the three critical changes: a) -1 vision: HUGE, every BO has to be tested as to how greedy you can be from now on against 4 gates b) +1 immortal range: important: one gate robo into 2 more gates deserves a closer look now. Together with a) it "could" turn out to be possible to hold since immortals cannot be kited any more. c) blink nerf: important: greedy builds have to be re-evaluated if they can now hold vs straight blink all-ins.
Just a number of questions straight from the top of my head: 1. Will a 3 stalker opening be necessary anymore? Do you even need the early 2nd gate since pylons below the ramp aren't that big of a deal if you can't warp above forcefields? 2. Will immortal-pushs vs straight colossus techs work now, since immortals have the same range as colossi without range? We don't have to forget that immortals do SICK damage to colossi, if they can indeed get in range. Additionally: Would 2 immortal + prism work vs one base colossus? Higher range of immortals + more shields of prism definitely needs to be investigated. 3. How does the blink nerf affect a robo into TC player who tries to harass a colossus-techer with blink? Will the blink be delayed too much now to do critical harassment? 4. Will going straight immortals into expand work? Will mass-immortals work now vs blink, since stalkers can't hit without getting hit back? How about chargelot/immortal? 5. Could the very old build from Kiwikaki, zealot/immortal/voidray become useful again with nerfed 4gate and double-nerfed blink vs immortals? (meaning blink-nerf combined with immortal buff)
On August 26 2011 17:12 L3g3nd_ wrote: this build is nothing but a coinflip. if he fakes a tech build and you do this and it turns out he is 4gating, you lose.
i would not advise anyone to play like this. flipping a coin and hoping you win is _NOT_ a good way to play
Even though I probably won't suddenly turned into an early expanding PvP player, I have to say that exactly THIS has also been said to kcdc when he first presented his one gate expo in PvT....pretty much a year ago.
People argued that it just wasn't possible to hold the expo vs 3 rax pressure and that one gate expo is way too risky to be worth the hassle.
If we think this through, PvP is behind in the metagame due to the 4gate vs 4gate. Maybe, just maybe, 4 gate will be dead soon except on maps like TalDarim. Then one gate expo only had to be hold-able against pure tech openings. And blink also gets nerfed in 1.4. (supposedly), so this will give the defending player another very valuable 30 seconds to mass up units.
Its different as its a mirror match up. but if you make a wrong read and you do this and your opponent 4gates, you lose. simple. maybe in 6months or a year it will be different, but atm this is a cheesy coin flip. a macro all in if you will.
a build where you go "please dont do X please dont do X" is not a good build in my book.
On August 26 2011 17:05 sleepingdog wrote: You forget to use the [G] tag - always lable your threads properly please, as it is explained in the strategy forum guidelines
Will look into the reps definitely - what do you think, could a one gate robo 3 gate fast immortals attack be threatening? I've seen whitera do something like that vs an early expand....cannons are quite useless if the immortal user is capable of rightlicking ze cannons and scouting a tech opening could possibly mislead you to play it more greedy? In the lights of upcoming 1.4. I think most of your future investigation should be focussed upon one gate robo and 3 gate robo builds...I assume that few people will blink rush in the future. Overall it looks very promising - even though 1.4. will reset PvP anyways, so expect lots of crazy going on there soon
What are you serious? I can't imagine 1.4 "resetting PvP" it's way too early to tell.
"Reset" doesn't necessarily mean that old builds will be useless!
Reset means that each and every build will have to ge re-evaluated due to the three critical changes: a) -1 vision: HUGE, every BO has to be tested as to how greedy you can be from now on against 4 gates b) +1 immortal range: important: one gate robo into 2 more gates deserves a closer look now. Together with a) it "could" turn out to be possible to hold since immortals cannot be kited any more. c) blink nerf: important: greedy builds have to be re-evaluated if they can now hold vs straight blink all-ins.
Just a number of questions straight from the top of my head: 1. Will a 3 stalker opening be necessary anymore? Do you even need the early 2nd gate since pylons below the ramp aren't that big of a deal if you can't warp above forcefields? 2. Will immortal-pushs vs straight colossus techs work now, since immortals have the same range as colossi without range? We don't have to forget that immortals do SICK damage to colossi, if they can indeed get in range. Additionally: Would 2 immortal + prism work vs one base colossus? Higher range of immortals + more shields of prism definitely needs to be investigated. 3. How does the blink nerf affect a robo into TC player who tries to harass a colossus-techer with blink? Will the blink be delayed too much now to do critical harassment? 4. Will going straight immortals into expand work? Will mass-immortals work now vs blink, since stalkers can't hit without getting hit back? How about chargelot/immortal? 5. Could the very old build from Kiwikaki, zealot/immortal/voidray become useful again with nerfed 4gate and double-nerfed blink vs immortals? (meaning blink-nerf combined with immortal buff)
Not to mention also with blink and 4 gate, you can no longer warp units onto the ramp with a forcefield at the bottom, granting vision to the high ground. It is the same with blinking a stalker to the middle of the ramp and then blinking the rest of your army up. It wont be possible to bum rush a ramp with zealots and pylons, or blink aggressively into the base without vision from the air against a defensive player with good sentry micro.
On August 26 2011 17:05 sleepingdog wrote: You forget to use the [G] tag - always lable your threads properly please, as it is explained in the strategy forum guidelines
Will look into the reps definitely - what do you think, could a one gate robo 3 gate fast immortals attack be threatening? I've seen whitera do something like that vs an early expand....cannons are quite useless if the immortal user is capable of rightlicking ze cannons and scouting a tech opening could possibly mislead you to play it more greedy? In the lights of upcoming 1.4. I think most of your future investigation should be focussed upon one gate robo and 3 gate robo builds...I assume that few people will blink rush in the future. Overall it looks very promising - even though 1.4. will reset PvP anyways, so expect lots of crazy going on there soon
What are you serious? I can't imagine 1.4 "resetting PvP" it's way too early to tell.
"Reset" doesn't necessarily mean that old builds will be useless!
Reset means that each and every build will have to ge re-evaluated due to the three critical changes: a) -1 vision: HUGE, every BO has to be tested as to how greedy you can be from now on against 4 gates b) +1 immortal range: important: one gate robo into 2 more gates deserves a closer look now. Together with a) it "could" turn out to be possible to hold since immortals cannot be kited any more. c) blink nerf: important: greedy builds have to be re-evaluated if they can now hold vs straight blink all-ins.
Just a number of questions straight from the top of my head: 1. Will a 3 stalker opening be necessary anymore? Do you even need the early 2nd gate since pylons below the ramp aren't that big of a deal if you can't warp above forcefields? 2. Will immortal-pushs vs straight colossus techs work now, since immortals have the same range as colossi without range? We don't have to forget that immortals do SICK damage to colossi, if they can indeed get in range. Additionally: Would 2 immortal + prism work vs one base colossus? Higher range of immortals + more shields of prism definitely needs to be investigated. 3. How does the blink nerf affect a robo into TC player who tries to harass a colossus-techer with blink? Will the blink be delayed too much now to do critical harassment? 4. Will going straight immortals into expand work? Will mass-immortals work now vs blink, since stalkers can't hit without getting hit back? How about chargelot/immortal? 5. Could the very old build from Kiwikaki, zealot/immortal/voidray become useful again with nerfed 4gate and double-nerfed blink vs immortals? (meaning blink-nerf combined with immortal buff)
Wah all of this sounds so good. I hope this will come true and then I won't dislike PvP anymore I promise. I can't imagine any old builds becoming useless though, except maybe 4gate vs someone with sentries. The blink nerf will surely make blink rushes weaker but I can't imagine it changing the blink vs robo situation at all, the blink is mainly for harass and basetrade, not for an actual fight.
On August 26 2011 17:12 L3g3nd_ wrote: this build is nothing but a coinflip. if he fakes a tech build and you do this and it turns out he is 4gating, you lose.
i would not advise anyone to play like this. flipping a coin and hoping you win is _NOT_ a good way to play
This really depends how much he spends to 'fake' the tech. A nexus alone only costs about 275 minerals given it also works as a superpylon (not too mention extra chrono). If they take a 2nd gas and some probes beyond 20 you can hold with this strat imo especially if the map has a small defenders advantage at the natural (like shakuras for example).
This build is good to know imo even if just only as a response to getting gas stolen while they take their 2nd gas. In that case (they have spent 150 minerals more on assimilators then you) this build is 100% safe imo and will put you in a good spot. Getting the forge and cannon in that case makes it completely safe then i think.
On August 26 2011 22:37 Markwerf wrote: This build is good to know imo even if just only as a response to getting gas stolen while they take their 2nd gas. In that case (they have spent 150 minerals more on assimilators then you) this build is 100% safe imo and will put you in a good spot. Getting the forge and cannon in that case makes it completely safe then i think.
Interesting point about the gassteal - if they take their 2nd gas and steal mine, you not only have to factor in the 150 minerals they spent, but also hat I have 15 minerals to spare because I do, in fact, not get a 2nd assimilator. I realize that the difference is "only" 150, but what I meant is that the 75 minerals are accessible to me to make for a smoothe build. Also I have a higher mineral-income because I don't mine gas with 6 probes. I don't even have to immediately kill the assimilator, as I will have access to the gas at the natural. Seems like a good response especially on shakuras and antiga.
Do you always tend to transition into Blink after you expand? I've had a lot of success going Robo after my 3rd Gate so that I can squeeze out an Immortal vs Blink pushes, whereas I see myself having a lot of issues holding a Blink push if I went for Blink myself since they'll hit a timing where they have it and I don't. I could also go Forge + cannons but going Robo seems much more robust. IMO a well-timed Blink push is the hardest to hold for this build, assuming you scouted properly.
Sick. I've done a similar build for a while and had very similar responses to all of the above. The only thing I did kind of differently was incorporate a forge in to defend against DTs and to get some quick ups.
On August 27 2011 04:56 Skillver wrote: I have a question:
On replay 2, how did you know that he isnt going 4gate? He saved a lot of chrono and u just scoutet 2 pylon 1gas
oh haha I forgot about that game. I was in that guy's head xD I wouldn't recommend dropping the nexus at that time if you have seen what I had seen that game. If it's inconclusive and he hasn't moved out, you can delay dropping the nexus so you can drop your own 3 additional gates and be defensive as the nexus goes down around the same time (a little later, sure) you would add those gates.
Important to note about that game- I should have stayed in his base longer with the probe and I would have either seen the second gas, or more importantly, delayed his 2nd gas until my probe left, making his rush slightly later.
He could have gone into my 3rd and dropped a pylon with that probe and 4gated, so I should have checked that as well but instead I went to feign pressure. It was the right call in this case, but that was pretty coinflippy I admit.
I tried it out against a blink stalking player, and he spread his bases, so I had hard troubles finishing him, whereas he could kill my entire base. Any ideas on that case?
I put together a video about this this morning. I had just woken up, so I think I spoke a little slowly and missed some key points. I might remake it later!
You actually need to be very careful on Antigua. IMO it's a great map to blink stalker rush against your build. The problem lies with them actually blinking a stalker INTO your base and using it to get vision onto the high ground of the main base. This would force the player with the expo to have to split their forces because the opponent could blink up into the main base or attack the expo then.
I believe the best way to defend this is to keep your units more toward the main expo ramp instead of outwards like you did to defend in your replay.
Another thing: the blink stalker rush you faced wasn't that great overall. I can have roughly 10-11 stalkers by the time he had his first 7 when your opponent attacked in the replay. The main reason I'm pointing this out is that it makes blinking past the defender to get into the main much easier when the attacker has 2 or more stalkers to try and do it with and not have to worry about having a lesser amount in the ball fighting your stalkers.
On August 26 2011 09:10 TechnoSchaman wrote: love the fact that you and time have been coming out with these builds. We will have you guys to thank when protoss gets a positive win rate cant wait to try this out
I agree this a great build but would take actual thinking as opposed to being a mindless drone. And as a fellow Protoss, don't you know Protoss is imbalanced? We have a 100 win rate in PvP. It's disgusting.
I'm a little confused about the 3 stalker timings you're talking about. When I 3 stalker rush, my poke comes at around 5:30ish (give or take due to map size and positions) which is before even a balls 4gate. It seems like this is a vulnerable timing before you get your warpgate up where you've obviously invested a lot into your nexus as well.
I'm just mentioning it because 3 stalker rush seems to be a fairly common/safe (lol) build.
Other than that I really like your write up and I think this will only get more viable with the patch (blink stalkers come 30 seconds later and everything else has to deal with FFs) builds like this will help change the metagame for PvP into something that is less than hell.
This guide is a really good and fleshed out, so thanks for that. Its potentially the strongest way to win vs. 3gate robo PvP; just run it over with upgraded tier 2 and dont attack into a choke.
There's a part that I disagree with, though; where you say if you scout xxx you delay your expansion. I dont think you can. This build works because you can overcome your 400 mineral detriment by mining from your second base by the time a 2gas tech push hits. You do this by:
Feigning 4-gate Mining from expo ASAP Delaying any push or timing however you can
If anything 'delays' your nexus, making it leaves you vulnerable to the normal timings that occur from blink and robo. Instead, just make a few extra probes and transition into a robust 1 -base blinkstalker or roblink build, which should hold 4gate and put you slightly ahead in workers and tech.
Only problem I see that sometimes even if you try to fake it and trick them they are so dumb and don't know or react properly to what they see, they see I have robotics and still make DT shrine or something. However, not that this has anything to do to this build.
I think I encountered it on ladder yesterday, I tried a slow 4 gate against him but he had shitloads of stalkers that turned into bstalkers. Pushed me all the way back to my base, only mistake for him was that he left the rest of his units behind so he lost all bstalkers and I was able to kill him with my own bstalkers, guess this is why this build seems a bit fragile to bstalkers. But I think if my opponent had better micro he could deffinelty win, will be sure to check this out.-
EPT
