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Hey TL,
i'm actually a 800 master player, (my english isn't that good, be tolerant as always <3) there is my problem.
I play a lot of ladder and i only play 1rax gazless expansion against protoss and i take a lot of all in. I used the select's build (3rax into fast facto / stim) wich is very unsafe in my opinion, i insta loose against 4g blink cuse i have a lot of marins and no concussive, i also loose against 4g etc... I feel like the 1rax FE is very very unsafe against protoss (especially atm they all in a lot). What are you guys thinking about the 1rax marauders/concussive expo?
Is there a way to scout Dts on 2 bases (not the Fast dts expo) when the dts pock around 9 minutes marks..
I hate the 1/1/1 it's not enough macro oriented : x
I worked on scouting protoss and do it well right now, but now i'm looking for a strong opening to counter all in (reactory ofc), and not being behind if he goes 1 gate FE.
Thanks in advance : )
ps : if people can put their level with their opinions i really appreciate thanks a lot.
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How about getting a 4th rax faster than the factory if you see he has no expo? I saw MeRz do it a couple times on stream against blink stalkers and he held it off.
Also a lot of pros go reaper expo on maps where gasless FE isn't that safe (like Xel'Naga).
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Maruder expand is safer vs 4gate and ground attacks, but its impossibly hard to hold of void rays when your maruder expanding, as you will have maruders and not marines. So I guess if you want to die to every all-in, go 1 rax gasless FE, but if you only want to die to void rays, then go maruder expand. 900 Masters terran.
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I think this is the safet you can get with a FE build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185963
It holds off 4 gates just fine. Just make sure to start your CC inbase and build the bunkers at natural before floating out.
As far as DTs go, usually I do a 6 Marine poke. If they go Zealot Zealot Sentry then you should be able to keep your scout alive long enough to see whats up. If I see Zealot Zealot Stalker then I assume DTs. The only other Zealot heavy things would be a wacky 5-6 gate or an early Stargate. The former is owned by bunkers, the latter is owned by turrets and marines (which you need vs DTs anyway) Theres Zealot/Immortal I guess but you should have stim by then.
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I like doing the 1 marauder expand Thorzain did in TSL, basically just mine 50 gas, make a tech lab and a marauder (after first marine) expand on 21, then add rax (Thorzain used to add 1 rax first then another after factory I think, but I go straight to 3rax) and then start mining your gas again. My first 100 I use for stim, second 100 for +1 attack (fast engi bay booth because uppgrades are awesome and because I hate losing to dts). If a blink all in is coming I start pumping 2 marines 1 marauder at a time, else just marines and faster teching.
Also on maps you feel it's safe, you can do the reaper expand instead, mining 75 gas. It's kind of earlier+harass+scouting, but less safe, also you have to put a bunker up fast or 1 zealot 1 stalker poke can straight up kill you.
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On August 21 2011 15:06 Theovide wrote:
I like doing the 1 marauder expand Thorzain did in TSL, basically just mine 50 gas, make a tech lab and a marauder (after first marine) expand on 21, then add rax (Thorzain used to add 1 rax first then another after factory I think, but I go straight to 3rax) and then start mining your gas again. My first 100 I use for stim, second 100 for +1 attack (fast engi bay booth because uppgrades are awesome and because I hate losing to dts). If a blink all in is coming I start pumping 2 marines 1 marauder at a time, else just marines and faster teching.
Also on maps you feel it's safe, you can do the reaper expand instead, mining 75 gas. It's kind of earlier+harass+scouting, but less safe, also you have to put a bunker up fast or 1 zealot 1 stalker poke can straight up kill you.
This is a very strong build.
1rax => cc => 3/4 rax => factory or ghost academy.
cc in base until you confirm toss expo
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1 Rax gasless FE is fine, you are probably just doing it wrong. You need three bunkers minimum with that build if you choose to build your CC in nat by 6:30, and two bunkers guarding possible blink abuse spots on maps like taldarim etc.
Marauder expand is actually worse than 1 Rax gasless believe it or not - toss sees you marauder expand -> vr or 5 gate zealot/sentry and you near straight out lose, not to mention things like 3 gate sentry contains.
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1 Rax gasless is the safest. You really need to hit your timings in terms of adding barracks though, and know when and how to scout. You want your 2nd and 3rd barracks before gas, as soon as the minerals allow. Scouting 1 gas means likely means 4 gate or 1 gate FE. You should be able to determine the difference by watching how much/where chrono boost is spent. More on gateway = 1 gate expo, more on cyber = 4 gate.
Tal Darim is pretty dumb IMO with that blink stalker ledge. I just took it off because TvZ there is nigh impossible anyway. To defend blink stalker/void ray you just need good unit control and bunker placement, 2-3 minimum.
It's critical to send an SCV out shortly after you expand to determine if they expanded. If you can't get one through, you need to scan. Any 1 gate FE and you can start getting a little less defensive. No expo means its time to bunker/turret up.
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I like 2 rax pressure, expand into 3 rax with reactor starport.
I copied my 2 rax from Hashe. Get usual 12 rax, 13 ref, 15 OC. Tech lab after one marine, then 2nd rax before 2nd supply depot. You will need to cut an SCV to prevent your 1st marauder from being delayed. Research concussive. Push with 2 marauders and 2 marines. Then get reactor on 2nd barracks followed by expansion.
This push can get good scouting information, usually in time to prepare a counter. Against a teching Protoss, you can occasionally deliver a crippling economic blow.
My level is Master/Diamond (recently demoted due to lack of active play).
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On August 21 2011 15:29 RedThor wrote:
I like 2 rax pressure, expand into 3 rax with reactor starport.
I copied my 2 rax from Hashe. Get usual 12 rax, 13 ref, 15 OC. Tech lab after one marine, then 2nd rax before 2nd supply depot. You will need to cut an SCV to prevent your 1st marauder from being delayed. Research concussive. Push with 2 marauders and 2 marines. Then get reactor on 2nd barracks followed by expansion.
This push can get good scouting information, usually in time to prepare a counter. Against a teching Protoss, you can occasionally deliver a crippling economic blow.
My level is Master/Diamond (recently demoted due to lack of active play).
2 rax is generally good, but it is incredibly easy to abuse. 3 gate sentry contain in particular wrecks this build, and in general 2 rax is kind of antiquated unless you know how your opponent will play. I'll put my faith in a 1 rax FE if I want to macro anyday, more reliable and i don't know if any good tosses take damage to that 2 rax conc push anymore.
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I'm just getting back into bio play, and I'm tryin to work with avilos 14/14 rax 15 gas 17 oc. 4 marines -> tech + reactor, shells + mara and marines, expo at like 30-35 and start stim after shells. Throw on 3rd rax and fac after 2nd CC and push with 3-4 scvs, and 2-3 marauders with first 8-10 marines.
So far, so good
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On August 21 2011 15:16 LicH. wrote:
1 Rax gasless FE is fine, you are probably just doing it wrong. You need three bunkers minimum with that build if you choose to build your CC in nat by 6:30, and two bunkers guarding possible blink abuse spots on maps like taldarim etc.
Marauder expand is actually worse than 1 Rax gasless believe it or not - toss sees you marauder expand -> vr or 5 gate zealot/sentry and you near straight out lose, not to mention things like 3 gate sentry contains.
The bunkers just die if i don't have 4-5 csv to repair them, and i can't really pull 10 csv to wait repairing. Maybe 1 rax FE with stim + obus (delaying the facto)? but it's very very short on minerals to get an ebay in case and i'm not sure if you can really counter VR without an ebay. i'm gonna study the thorzain build in TSL sounds great.
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You need to worry about stargate (just early voidrays really) when choosing an opening. I wouldn't worry too much about 4g because bunkers + bio is really effective plus its decently easy to scout. QXC has a build that is 2 rax (12 rax 14 rax) 15 gas that is also marine heavy but gives you more units in the beginning of the game so I guess you would be a bit safer but you add a reactor and a tech lab to the rax, then get an expo. Then you can transition out however you like
Hope this helps!
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1 rax gasless FE is still the best choice, i just don't really like the way select performs it.
If you are on a huge map like tal darim I think first of all you can afford to get CC before second depot. You have to cut marines for a very short time but that doesn't really matter as you will get rax #2 and #3 quicker and the expo up quicker.
It's very important to scout if P is expanding or not though. Send the scouting scv back to the natural around 6:20 and if P hasn't expanded then you can put them on a all-in. Against an all-in it's just very important to not invest too many stuff in tech. So often do you see T going 3 rax + factory even though they could know P is doing an all-in, or getting +1 attack while they are getting all-inned etc.
If they are not expanding I think you should always put techlabs on 2 of your first 3 raxes, techlabs are the best way to increase production quickly on your raxes:
naked rax, 50m every 25s
techlab rax 100m 25g every 30s
reactor rax 100m every 25s
A simple tech lab increases production by the most and doesn't cost long to build. You shouldn't really worry about the voidray all-in too much as that is really not so strong against a gasless FE opening since you have enough rines to deal with it. Marauder production is just so critical against blink that you really want to start early on it, against the zeal/sentry build rines are better but since marauders produce so much faster it doesn't really matter that much if you make marauders instead imo.
Another thing to do is always have a wall-in between main and natural, this tremendously helps against DT and blink. Putting a rax near the natural to constrict stalker movement is also critical imo, you should make sure that if they blink past the bunkers they get stuck a little so you can get some kills before blink's cooldown is up.
The recent select vs mc game on tal darim from gamescom just showcase all these mistakes. He had bad bunker placement (didn't cover the blink spot enough), didn't use a rax/depot to stop the stalkers from moving behind the mineral line and he didn't get enough marauders (just 1 techlab) while also teching +1 attack on his infantry... The blink stalker all-in can be held quite well if you don't make these mistakes really.
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What do you guys think about the EGPuma's build against MC on Terminus?
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That was a metagame move to arouse suspicions of a possible 1-1-1 inc. Otherwise, it is a decent build.
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Dunno if it was safe against all in : x or if it's only metagame... fucking metagame...
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I´ve worked out a good mech build ,which is is safe but i don´t know if you like mech against Protoss .So tell me if you want to have the mech build. By the way I´m master Terran aswell.
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700 master here
I think the safest build you can do vs protoss is the 2rax expand with a reactor on your first rax after your first marine and a 2nd rax built before your 2nd depot.
You poke with 5 marines and 1 marauder with concussive shells and you have all of those units at the 5:00 mark (4:55 if you do it perfectly).
It is a timing poke I include in every single one of my TvP games unless it's a huge map. If he did a 1gate FE you can outright win with good control, if he did anything else really you will gain all the needed scouting information.
You can chose to expand whenever you feel it is best to expand, with full knowledge of what the opponent is doing.
This build is just... awesome.
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A build I use off and on instead of a gasless expand is one I saw from somewhere in the gsl last season, forget which match QQ.
It's a standard 12 rax 13 gas 15 oc start, but you build:
1 rine
tech lab
conc and 2 marauders
push with 1 scv conc will finish upon second marauder
-pull 2 off gas and queue reaper
expo while moving out with force
hotkey reaper and set it to scout back of toss base while you force units at front with your bio force
Behind this put down 2 more rax and an ebay while putting 2 scvs back on gas as soon as cc is down. Normally if you have good micro you can get quite a few probe kills as he wont have enough units to defend both fronts.
This attack also requires him to reveal tech more often than not, and the ebay helps with anything cheesy too.
Keep the scv alive though, because if the reaper is able to snipe a sentry you can bunker in the main, or bunker at a nexus if he 1 gate expands. Often times you can even force the cancel which is quite nice =D
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On August 21 2011 15:37 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 15:29 RedThor wrote:
I like 2 rax pressure, expand into 3 rax with reactor starport.
I copied my 2 rax from Hashe. Get usual 12 rax, 13 ref, 15 OC. Tech lab after one marine, then 2nd rax before 2nd supply depot. You will need to cut an SCV to prevent your 1st marauder from being delayed. Research concussive. Push with 2 marauders and 2 marines. Then get reactor on 2nd barracks followed by expansion.
This push can get good scouting information, usually in time to prepare a counter. Against a teching Protoss, you can occasionally deliver a crippling economic blow.
My level is Master/Diamond (recently demoted due to lack of active play).
2 rax is generally good, but it is incredibly easy to abuse. 3 gate sentry contain in particular wrecks this build, and in general 2 rax is kind of antiquated unless you know how your opponent will play. I'll put my faith in a 1 rax FE if I want to macro anyday, more reliable and i don't know if any good tosses take damage to that 2 rax conc push anymore.
This. I do that exact BO. The whole point isnt to do damage. Its to light contain but leave before you die to a 3 gate expo. Its to punish things like 1 gate FE. Youll get your expo up and running at least as early as the P. And if you meed any of their units around the map, ala zealot stalkers poke, you kill them.
However as pointed out, i seem to have trouble against 3 gate sentry contain. Normally i put down 2 bunkers at my nat at 630 to be extra safe as ill still be at least on par.
I also get stim asap after conc, youll have to make a marine instead of a maurader at one point though.
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On August 22 2011 07:40 ButtCraft wrote:
700 master here
I think the safest build you can do vs protoss is the 2rax expand with a reactor on your first rax after your first marine and a 2nd rax built before your 2nd depot.
You poke with 5 marines and 1 marauder with concussive shells and you have all of those units at the 5:00 mark (4:55 if you do it perfectly).
It is a timing poke I include in every single one of my TvP games unless it's a huge map. If he did a 1gate FE you can outright win with good control, if he did anything else really you will gain all the needed scouting information.
You can chose to expand whenever you feel it is best to expand, with full knowledge of what the opponent is doing.
This build is just... awesome.
2 rax is all fun and games until you get 3 gate sentry contained, or protoss hits you with something all-in during your timing poke. It's a decent build, but it for the most part is outdated unless you are doing a hyper aggressive qxc/avilo style variant, are doing a minimally aggressive poke. It might be more so viable since the WG nerf, I completely switched out of 2 rax style since then, and haven't run up against that situation since the patch (because I no longer run into 2 rax vs. 3 gate anymore.)
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I run into 2 rax vs 3 gate all the time. As long as you get bunkers up in time your fine. If you let a flanking proxy pylon go up, say in your nat min line, you lose though.
Since the WP nerf you have enough time to prepare. At least in my experience. If you get sentry contained its gg however.
3 gate void all in ive never once beat. But thats not because of the build. Its because its stupid hard to hold.
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The problem with the 2 rax, is that on big map (like all the maps right now exept xel'naga) the travel time will put you a bit behind when you poke...
Is 1 rax FE into 3rax 2 gaz better than 1rax FE into 3rax 1 gaz (wich allow more safety against protoss, easiest to put down and ebay and 3 bunker) ?
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Yes on X positions large maps, its kinda crap. I havent laddered much S3 but it was fine on season 2 maps.
On the large maps i may have to start taking up a 1 rax FE style
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My build is very similar to what Badfatpanda has said.
12rax 13gas standard starting then
1rine
tech lab
conc and marauders
when first marauders building start 2nd rax
after 2nd marauder 1 rine and start stim
then 1rine from 2nd rax
then reaper
attk with 3 rines 2 marauders and 1 reaper as Badfatpanda said
(try walk around with the first rine and marauder kill any stray stalkers)
start ur cc when u have 400
if long cross position
neglect the 2nd rax and just pressure with 2rines and 2marauders and a reaper
when cc is down get 2 rax when it's done i usually like to train 2 rines from the rax just built as i start the factory and 2nd gas build marauders from the techlabbed if u c stargate just build marines 2 marauders in the bunkers can hold stalkers since they won't have much and since u teched ur vikings will be there after first few engage
using diff name but i'm 500 master in NA
though TvP isn't my best match up xD...
TvT all the way!
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From my Terran times i like 2 Rax but not aggressive expand the most...
First Rax gets a Reactor, u wall off with a bunker and u pump a lot marines in the early game...
2nd rax gets a Tech Lab for stim and u only go marines from reactor rax and only marauder from tech lab rax... very fast u can build ur expo in ur base while a 4gate no matter of which variation is timed and u easily can hold it off with ur initial bunker + rines and some marauders but no stim now... fly new CC to Nat with 2 Bunkers protecting it from hardcore early Colossi Pushes without thermal Lance and mass gate units... u should be even in eco with an 1 gate expand due to Mules with this build, ur safe against any kind of 4 gate or other types of early Protoss Pressure and get up ur Expo really easily while teching stim which should finish very fast, in case of a 3gate expo u can with constant production in both raxes and after expanding adding more raxes be aggressive with ur finished stim as its a great timing to push out while ur macro gets really juicy behind it... His sentry heavy army also sucks against ur kinda early stimmed marines and marauders...
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1Rax FE is not unsafe in any way I know, except maybe against a stalker push on short rush distances, but when I'm suspecting early pressure(chrono gate and stalker out) I put up a bunker before my gasses anyway. It's only delaying by a bit because you need the bunker to fend off any early stalker.
2gate rush you fend off by putting your depots at your wall and repair.
DT's, those are easily countered by a quick engibay and turret and get +1 attack while you're at it. Follow up with raven, push for the win.
Lots of chrono being used on the cyber core? Just put up additional bunkers, leapfrog them back to your main if you need to defend. If you have a significant number of units and scv's left after a 4gate(or any pressure build for that matter), it's very hard to lose. Don't be afraid to pull scv's, your opponent is way behind on economy anyway.
Also KNOW THE TIMINGS!!! Knowing when the first stalker comes out, knowing when a 4gate hits, when the earliest DT's come out is SO key to less stupid losses. This makes you so much more prepared when the actual build comes into play.
Finally scouting. There's nothing worse than not being ready for what your opponent throws at you. Be smart with your scouting scv's, you can put them somewhere hidden to scout for expos or army comp when you need to. Xel'naga towers when the opponent doesn't have map control. Drops, banshees, floating factory, scans in the late game. Knowing where my opponent is and what he's doing is what wins me most TvP's.
Anyway, plat terran here, hope I helped.
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1 rax bunker expo into 1/1/1 is my favorite build unless I 3x all in.
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the safest thing you can do is learn to get all you can out of your scouting information
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On August 21 2011 18:50 Markwerf wrote:
1 rax gasless FE is still the best choice, i just don't really like the way select performs it.
If you are on a huge map like tal darim I think first of all you can afford to get CC before second depot. You have to cut marines for a very short time but that doesn't really matter as you will get rax #2 and #3 quicker and the expo up quicker.
It's very important to scout if P is expanding or not though. Send the scouting scv back to the natural around 6:20 and if P hasn't expanded then you can put them on a all-in. Against an all-in it's just very important to not invest too many stuff in tech. So often do you see T going 3 rax + factory even though they could know P is doing an all-in, or getting +1 attack while they are getting all-inned etc.
If they are not expanding I think you should always put techlabs on 2 of your first 3 raxes, techlabs are the best way to increase production quickly on your raxes:
naked rax, 50m every 25s
techlab rax 100m 25g every 30s
reactor rax 100m every 25s
A simple tech lab increases production by the most and doesn't cost long to build. You shouldn't really worry about the voidray all-in too much as that is really not so strong against a gasless FE opening since you have enough rines to deal with it. Marauder production is just so critical against blink that you really want to start early on it, against the zeal/sentry build rines are better but since marauders produce so much faster it doesn't really matter that much if you make marauders instead imo.
Another thing to do is always have a wall-in between main and natural, this tremendously helps against DT and blink. Putting a rax near the natural to constrict stalker movement is also critical imo, you should make sure that if they blink past the bunkers they get stuck a little so you can get some kills before blink's cooldown is up.
The recent select vs mc game on tal darim from gamescom just showcase all these mistakes. He had bad bunker placement (didn't cover the blink spot enough), didn't use a rax/depot to stop the stalkers from moving behind the mineral line and he didn't get enough marauders (just 1 techlab) while also teching +1 attack on his infantry... The blink stalker all-in can be held quite well if you don't make these mistakes really.
Very good points.
I've even seen some Koreans go up to 4 rax before fac to be extra safe.
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I do the same thing as bad fatpanda, I just take the gaz at 14 svc not 13
I add three rax while pushing, the ebay after orbital is done on the second cc
followed by +1 and ghost push
As I keep the svc mining on gaz, I have enough to produce stim/ghost academy + 1 attack, I skip the attack on shakuras to get 2 ghost for 2 emp
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2 rax fe with engineering bay + two bunkers can hold off a four gate or fast dark templar.
With fast upgrades and a few extra rax you can go on the offensive or tech to fast starport.
Very good for the basic opening, the other safe choices involve fast siege tank or banshee with lots of marines for firepower.
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EPT
