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sLiniss
United States849 Posts
Zerg is widely considered the "reactionary" race. But could putting on early pressure change that? Instead of relying on a quick hatchery, how viable is sacrificing some expanding time to tech to faster roaches/banelings. Just as a T/P would make more attacking units early on to force spinecrawlers, could Zerg do the same thing? I'm hoping to get more insight from players who've had more experience with early aggression-type builds. So, what's your take on this TL? | ||
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Yoddy
Germany20 Posts
i didnt find anything usefull then to make early pressure... P and T can easily defend and arent forced into things that can play into your tactic. So early pressure is more satisfying drones for nothing or do a all-in, in the actual metagame. | ||
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galtdunn
United States977 Posts
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GuardianEU
Netherlands488 Posts
7 pool, drone till 9 supply, double extractor trick to get 6 lings out when the pool finishes... overlord then a queen straight after. depending on what happens you react. you can either jsut expand when you did enough damage, or expand when they blocked with a forge(gives you alot mroe time) or you can follow up with a roach timing attack after droning a little. | ||
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sLiniss
United States849 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
Watch MC games and how he deals with roach rushes. And Idra for how to perform them. You will learn that the more safety oriented a Toss plays, the more impossible a roach rush becomes. Also banelings are useless unless he goes for some weird all in zealot push. Banelings busts are not good as you always run the risk of being trapped in a Forcefield. 3 rax expo? Is that really a risky build? Sounds like a pretty dumb safe build to me. FFE thank god only work on the big maps. And 3 gate expos mean the Toss has not gotten a super early eco advantage, so be happy. | ||
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DerBeefman
Germany226 Posts
and if you see that you opponent is going to play greedy you can do soft pressure, i.e. ling pressure with a handful of them against an early expo. | ||
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ChoiBoi
United States130 Posts
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HTODethklok
United States221 Posts
Vs Protoss 10 overlord 10 pool drone up to 13 When pool pops get a queen you should now have 3 larva at your hatch to make 3 sets of zerglings Send the lings to the P base and kill off whatever you can. I can usually kill their first zelot and some probes or if nothing else you force P to pull probes and loose mining time. If P went for a FFE you can deal significant even game ending damage to them. While all this is going on you can expo and prepare for what you scouted with your 6 lings. Vs T (the following was taken from blade55555 ZvT guide found here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211960) 9 - overlord 9 - drone scout (I do this to see if he's getting gas or 2 rax) 15 - hatchery 14- spawning pool (I do this at 16 if I do not see a 2 rax or see a gas / cc first) 17-18- overlord (depending on if you pool on 16 or not) 18-19 - gas . 22-24- overlord (your preference) 24-27 (your preference)- Roach warren. as soon as spawning pool finishes make 2 queens. I make 6 roaches, 2 for defense, 4 for pressure. The point of these 4 roaches is not to do damage or kill your opponent. The point is to try to reveal his tech (lots of hellions, tank, banshee). At the minimum you will probably force a bunker, but dont' sacrifice these 4 roaches unless you are guaranteed to be killing scv's and stuff, dont' let them die to a ton of marines, and if there is a tank pull back. I get ling speed after I make the initial 6 roaches unless I need more roaches for some all in or something This dosnt always work as terran can hide their tech and just bring enough units that they want you to see to the front of their base to defend but its a good strat none the less and can deal a lot of damage if the T player is playing greedy | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
In ZvT a nice pressure build off of hatch first is delaying speed for a bout 5-7 roaches. Sheth does this a lot and it can outright win you the game if not cause damage. This is primarily used when you scout reactor hellion opening, and you go hatch pool, and between 20-25 food you make your roach warren, and double overlord at 26, and make roaches when it pops and send them to his base, if he is only making hellions and doesn't have a bunker you will almost always cause some damage, picking off the supply depot at the wall and forcing some scv pulls. Just remember you have to micro at the wall because marines outrange roaches by 1. Good luck. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
However it turned out, it's sufficient to just build the early pool, kill their scout with early 2 lings. Often you'll get an overreaction by the opponents (complete wall off, chronoing zealots, skip fast expand and go for 4 gate), so i most often end up faking an agressive build and then drone up with the larvae generated by the early queen. I really like this style, as you can punish early chees easily and if you see eco-cheese you might attack without going all in (expand at 18 in any case). Killing the scout with lings has a deep psychological impact. They don't see what you are doing, so they play carefully. Terrans oft wall in like crazy (fear of bane bust). P often go for complete wall in (=> they need to destroy the blocking pylon later on) or cannon in. In fact in ~90% of the games i am delaying their expansion at least 30 seconds because of that and make them messup their planned build. | ||
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flyingbangus
United States121 Posts
Every now and then I get an opponent that doesn't make sentries behind their wall-off (teching)-- I just bling bust the zealot on the wall. ZvT -- meh, I prefer going spanishiwa style with simcity if they're going BFH. If they are going BFH (90% of the time, yes), I build a Spire in the main but actually go speed roach-bling  | ||
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
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IMLyte
Canada714 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On August 13 2011 05:37 Hossinaut wrote: The only issue I have with this is if/ when it fails, it seems like you've put a lot of economy down the drain and have to cut a LOT of corners and play really risky to get EVEN let alone pull ahead in the macro race. Just my experience. with 10 pool, ET-11-pool-DET-ovie or 11 overpool you do not lose that much of economy. The early pool gives you an advantage, because the opponent has to react. look at this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253459 so now if you drone up straight after killing his scout you are probably more ahead than if you play a macro game against ffe. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
Against Protoss, early aggression can be good. The roach ling timings can be good to eliminate sentry energy and kill probes. Early pools can also be good but Protoss players 9 scout nowadays so its a bit risky. | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
@9 drones > pool drone up to 10/10 supply, produce overlord @100 minerals When overlord and pool finish (within seconds of each other), make 4-6 lings Go back to droning, making a queen as soon as you can afford it (should be @14 food). I guess if protoss scouts it, makes a solid wall and leaves his first zealot outside the solid wall, even losing the zealot cost-inefficiently greatly hurts a push the Zerg can't afford to reinforce without going all-in. Even if your first zealot only kills 2 of the 6 zerglings, you greatly slow down how fast your wall can be nibbled down, and buy yourself time to amass zealots. So far, no low diamond Protoss has held the push effectively, and most have responded by trying a mass zealot all-in behind it... which doesn't work, because by the time 5-7 zealots are out my second hatchery is up and I probably know its coming, what with zerglings having recently romped through his front door. In short, early pools are working for me for now, but once the proper response becomes common knowledge, I think they'll become completely ineffective again. | ||
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
SC2 is a game of economy and economy management, which is why you'll hear Day[9] reference mid-high masters/GM level play being all about expo management (denying opponents' expos, etc) because an expo means an increased economy. That in mind, as well as my first point, its possible to open aggro if you expect like a FFE or a 1 rax FE, but beyond that, a 15 hatch is preferable. Always look for the economic way to win rather than early aggression as Zerg especially. In my opinion, and its a humble one for sure, a macro game shows skill with more precision than rush games. Not entirely dissimilarly, its hard for Zerg to react to early aggro that doesn't work very well. In my opinion, this means its too risky, unless they don't wall or they don't build units or are just really bad. :D The last thing I'm thinking is worth noting is an 11p can transition into a macro-ish build and allow for early aggro, so a modified Destiny build, but I would have to mess with it to be comfortable with it. Also just a personal preference, but I'd rather have map control than lose a lot of units in an early attack, so that I can be more prepared when an attack comes later in the game. GL HF GG Good Hunting <3 | ||
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theonlyshaft
United States581 Posts
I guess the difference is in blind pressure, and knowledge pressure. Going for a 6 pool is blind pressure. Scouting 1 rax and going roaches... that's knowledge. Pretty simple. But another key thing is to have good macro, before you start trying to be cheesy. Otherwise, you're going to develop bad habits, and once your opponents (you've advanced leagues high enough) who can beat your tactics, you're left with nothing. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On August 12 2011 22:59 sLiniss wrote: Recently, I've been trying out Zerg's ability to pressure early instead of the more common 14/15 Hatch or 14gas/14pool into ~21Hatch. Zerg is widely considered the "reactionary" race. But could putting on early pressure change that? Instead of relying on a quick hatchery, how viable is sacrificing some expanding time to tech to faster roaches/banelings. Just as a T/P would make more attacking units early on to force spinecrawlers, could Zerg do the same thing? I'm hoping to get more insight from players who've had more experience with early aggression-type builds. So, what's your take on this TL? 1 base play from zerg has no validity past all ins because of larvae. Just by havnig 2 hatcheries, you're way ahead in larvae, so unless you kill him before that takes effect, you lose. | ||
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KamKer
29 Posts
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