So my fellow protoss, i was wondering if any of you have found optimum responses to scouting a zerg early pool.
in general there are three factors that weigh in to a typical response:
1) the timing of the pool (whether it is 6, 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , etc. i don't think 11 pool requires much deviation) 2) how early you scout it (first scout vs 2nd scout vs last scout) this depends on luck and 3) whether you are opening forge or standard (gateway)
here are some things to keep in mind though:
-For a non ffe build, is it wiser to go gateway first, even when you scout the pool early (first scout finds zerg base)? or is going forge first (this is of course presuming you were going to go gateway first) and walling off with a gateway+ cannon on top of your ramp more favorable? -Let's say that you scout the zergs early pool but you have already built a gateway, is it okay to build a cybernetics core right away or do you have to follow this up with a additional gateway + pylon walloff followed by chronoboosted zealots? or should you add a forge and go for a delayed cannon? -Lets say you did go for the forge wall off on ramp route, what do you do vs a zerg that pulls one or all of his drones and attempts to block you from walling off completely? - Depending on how you reacted to the 6 pool, what is a good transition that will ensure that you have as much of a lead as possible? gateway expand? a delayed ffe (in case you build a forge to wall off your ramp) ? stargate expo? a 4 gate all in? etc. etc.
i have seen many different responses and i've tried quite a few of them out myself but if you guys know for a fact that one response is favorable over another according to the criteria above then i'd love to hear it.
also this thread is more concerned with non ffe openings, as for ffe the defense and transition is quite obvious (building cannon asap + walling in)
I never do a forge opening unless i plan on forge fast expanding, the trigger for me is pool before overlord or after. If pool is before I 2gate and pylon block off, after i get a zealot out I cancel the pylon and engage with 4-5 probes and the lot (mineral walk probes to try and get surround). On four player maps I always double scout after pylon and gate unless I find them first (or see the overlord). Depending on how much the zerg committed to the attack I either four/five gate or expo and go for a 2base push. I'm low masters but I have not lost to a 6pool in quite a while. I imagine that at the highest levels more variation might be needed depending on exact pool timing, but this works for me.
edit: If i see a really early worker scout I assume 6/7 pool, I pull 2 extra probes to engage the drone /temporarily block, get the wall off and i don't double scout. So far, I have never been wrong about the early pool, but I suppose this is not a sure fire tell.
I scout after 9 pylon, then my gate goes up, on most maps the pool is scouted as my gas is being taken. I cancel my assimalator immediately, then I go forge and a pylon for a complete wall off. I prefer this because the zerg can mineral walk through my zelato blocking the choke and I don't need to pull probes. From here I go right back to a normal 3 gate. All the while I am making zealots and sentries. If i scout an expand, i go for void rays. If I scout more tech, I stay on one base and mass up an army. Usually after a fast pool, zealots will win the game for me.
I dont wall off, holds every sort of early pool. This is because your probes can protect your pylon and gw, giving you time to get your zealot out. Once the zealot is out you can have 4-5 probes with him and you should be fine. here are a couple reps for timings(these are random) i know there are few that hold early pools, just click my name and it will you give you all the reps i've uploaded.
While what wakai is saying is absolutely the truth, (you can mine and defend your pylons/gateways in a timely manner), this is as dangerous to do as it is beneficial in higher leagues. You're basically surrendering total and complete vision of your base/build every single game for much longer than you otherwise would. There's nothing to stop him from getting 2/4 lings into your base and running circles around ya for quite some time. You pretty much have to get a stalker instead of a sentry first, too.
The only real risk of building at the ramp is if they 6/7 pool and you scout them last in a 4 player map, but with close by air position scouting on several 4 player maps you pretty much know the zerg will be close positions or cross positions, probe will scout the lings coming out in time and you can wall with a second gate/forge/pylon and chrono out zealots just fine.
Still, it's nice cause there's less idle probe movement time. Not gonna knock it. I know white ra appreciates this style of pvz opening. I might adopt this build on some specific maps (which I hate and am forced to play on because there are so many terrible maps), but completely giving up the meta game is a pretty big blow considering the mechanics of larva/queen corner cutting :X
uhhh make units and survive when you do zerg has shit econ cause zergs macro is messed up as shit soo just use chrono and win bro wait ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww you play toss
to punish zerg for fast pool, I get a fast expansion, then transition into 6 game, if you get your timings down well, you will be able to hurt them alot. Remember, unless its there, don't go for the kill, kill some lings queens, a few drones, forcefield off the ramp and get a hatch it you can. Pressuring the zerg like this will stress them out beyond belief. A replay would be great!
On August 11 2011 13:21 pandaBee wrote: -Let's say that you scout the zergs early pool but you have already built a gateway, is it okay to build a cybernetics core right away or do you have to follow this up with a additional gateway + pylon walloff followed by chronoboosted zealots? or should you add a forge and go for a delayed cannon?
Honestly ina situation where you've placed your first gateway and then notice an early pool from a zerg player, I wouldn't deviate much from my original plan. If you wanted to go with a build that involved your next major building being a cybernetics core, go ahead and build it as part of your walloff.
With decent enough positioning and through good timing via aid of a chrono boost, you can finish your walloff with a zealot on hold position. You can then pop out a sentry as soon as you can to hold them at bay while you work on getting a 4-gate up.
I personally wouldn't worry about trying to end it early in this situation. Just be thankful that their economy should be nowhere near as good as yours at the time, build up comfortably, expand if necessary, and take what should be a slightly easier win.
At least this is what I tend to do in the situation, but I'm only a Silver-level player. That may not work in Gold or above, for all I know.
From my experience I can offer this advice for FFE: If you have scouted a 6 pool just make a pylon in your mineral line and make a cannon as soon as you can. Make your gateway next to the cannon and proceed normally. You should have the advantage from here as long as you pump out units sufficient for how many lings he has pumped But please, whatever you do, do not make more than 2 cannons. You will feel like you are safe and have an advantage, but it is such a big throw away of cash early on and you will actually be behind. But to sum it all up, if you've gone FFE just make one cannon that can protect your probes and gateway (great example was a match today DRG vs... damn i forgot but it was code A ) So
personally whenever i do a forge + cannon response vs early pool it feels like i delayed my tech WAY too much if the zerg just starts mass droning after his first few lings :|
I mean yeah my economy is ahead, but it doesnt mean anything since if he starts droning fast his drone numbers will overtake mine since he doesn't need to worry about producing army :|
Gate first then I would put a forge and another pylon to make sure their is no gaps. Then a cannon can deflect the zerglings or you could use the mc style of holding off the six pool with a two gate.
Considering the lings should be running up your ramp before your gateway finishes on many maps, you'll find it hard to throw up a cybernetics core wall off. You can get away with the cybernetics on cross positions metalopolis(IE) and ONLY if he didn't delay your 12 gateway in the slightest with a scout. I guess a 10 gateway build could wall in on time, but 10gate... ehhh pretty uneconomical. Not something I'd want to do, especially since this has its own drawbacks for a 6 pool in that you can't scout until much later unless you totally disrupt the build.
If you're going to wall off you will probably need to do it with a second gateway or forge +pylon and forgo the gas until you're safe/putting up a cybernetics core. Walling off the initial lings is only an option if you 9pylon scout the zerg in close position (will see pool complete) or cross position(scouted second will see lings exit base). You can reduce the number of spawn locations of a zerg (to scout quicker with 9pylon scouter) by looking for overlord around 10 or 11 if you could have close by air positions.
If the lings just suddenly show up (you scouted him last) and you were attempting to do the typical gate/cyb/zealot block then you're going to have a rough time coming out on top. Your best shot is pulling all but 5 or so probes off the mineral line to protect the pylon. The second pylon should have just started around the time the lings get there iirc. Get the zealot out and make sure your probes, nor zealot, ever fight separately from each other-don't let your zealot get surrounded without making sure you surround his lings with your probes. Keep boosting out zealots until you can start sending more probes back to the mineral line (if at all) and sim city wall the front with a second gateway/forge and eventually a pylon.
The chances of finding yourself in this situation are extremely low at high levels of play. 6 pool has a 2/3 chance of auto failing on 4 player maps and a 100% of auto failing on 2 player maps. On maps with close positions this basically is a 90% chance to *auto* fail. Not just fail auto fail btw.
Considering zergs are almost favored in a drawn out macro game there's no reason to throw away a 50/50 chance at winning for a 66-100% chance of automatically losing based on the first few minutes of build order. I'd be more cautious though if it's a random player. Often times random players resort to all kinds of cheese knowing that if they spawn a certain race at a certain location (and you don't scout like you normally would if you knew their race), then they will have a greater chance at success with cheese than those who pick race.
On August 11 2011 18:07 chipman wrote: The chances of finding yourself in this situation are extremely low at high levels of play. 6 pool has a 2/3 chance of auto failing on 4 player maps and a 100% of auto failing on 2 player maps. On maps with close positions this basically is a 90% chance to *auto* fail. Not just fail auto fail btw.
Tbh i have seen 6 or 7 pool played by Mr. Bitter (and maybe Spanishwa) sometimes. He didn't use it as something, what will end the game, but to throw opponent off ... after initial 6 lings they drone hard, they have control about what is happening in Toss base (most of them didn't wall completely). He wasnt exchanging lings for probes, but forcing him not to mine etc ... which worked perfectly and when toss got rid of lings, He was same or ahead in macro ;-)
So i don't think it must be autofail ... just you need to know how to use it properly on high-level play.
on FFE maps and cast early pool go forge --> cannon --> gateway --> gateway(cancel before its done and renplace with cybernetics core) --> nexus. if you dont see early pool go forge --> nexus
on gateways expand builds go gateway and either forge single cannon or gateway x2 rally inside your base and block the small gap with a pylon its harder to hold off with 2 gates but you end up with 2 gates and you dont have to make a cannon
On August 11 2011 15:31 chipman wrote: While what wakai is saying is absolutely the truth, (you can mine and defend your pylons/gateways in a timely manner), this is as dangerous to do as it is beneficial in higher leagues. You're basically surrendering total and complete vision of your base/build every single game for much longer than you otherwise would. There's nothing to stop him from getting 2/4 lings into your base and running circles around ya for quite some time. You pretty much have to get a stalker instead of a sentry first, too.
The only real risk of building at the ramp is if they 6/7 pool and you scout them last in a 4 player map, but with close by air position scouting on several 4 player maps you pretty much know the zerg will be close positions or cross positions, probe will scout the lings coming out in time and you can wall with a second gate/forge/pylon and chrono out zealots just fine.
Still, it's nice cause there's less idle probe movement time. Not gonna knock it. I know white ra appreciates this style of pvz opening. I might adopt this build on some specific maps (which I hate and am forced to play on because there are so many terrible maps), but completely giving up the meta game is a pretty big blow considering the mechanics of larva/queen corner cutting :X
Indeed, you do give the zerg some space, but you wall off eventually, I'm still working on the wall as gw pylon is still sketchy because if you have him off by a little bit lings can get through. I'm doing it on every map because you gain ~30-40 mins which is enough to continuously chrono your nexus.
WaKai if the zerg went 14 gas/pool and reacts to your lack of a wall-off with a speedling all-in are you still able to hold? I'm talking a macro-hatch, ~15 drone speedling all-in.
If so and you happen to have a replay that you're willing to share I would really enjoy seeing it.
On August 12 2011 03:05 galivet wrote: WaKai if the zerg went 14 gas/pool and reacts to your lack of a wall-off with a speedling all-in are you still able to hold? I'm talking a macro-hatch, ~15 drone speedling all-in.
If so and you happen to have a replay that you're willing to share I would really enjoy seeing it.
http://drop.sc/26075 i think this should do. my zealot wasn't placed perfectly the first time, so the lings got by. If your zealot dies just make a pylon at the choke and a zealot then cancel. But usually i hold any lings just fine if my zealot is perfectly placed. I have to usually check with a probe if its tight. That replay was the most recent one i found... doesn't go with exactly what you said by the idea is the same. Usually i go stalker first, but i scouted an early gas, and late pool so i could happily take the sentry.
why is everyone only talking about 6 pool? there is a reason why i named this thread "Early Pool Counters" and not "6 pool counters". but anyways yes i'd like it if no low - level players commentated on this , as players in lower leagues do not face against optimized builds
reason why the pool timing is important is i find that each different pool timing requires a different respone of sort... because there is economical early pools and all-in early pools which require different responses
i've also run into a pretty tricky version of a 6 pool on 2-p maps where the player uses one drone to delay you from walling off and then sends the rest of their drones + the 6 lings to really screw you over. this kind of build has an amazing amount of flexibility.
i've even ran into zergs that use a later pool (usually 8-10) to try and make you overreact, wall yourself in, etc. so that they can expand quickly and drone up (and they are soon ahead in worker count even with constant worker production save the cut to create the walloff at your ramp)
so yeah please don't go thinking that i am only talking about 6 pool. it's not the only early pool build that zerg has in their arsenal
I play zerg and i early pool nearly every single game vs toss. Good builds which i like to do are:
6 pool, 5 set of lings, overlord, lings. (all in) I never use this one i think there are better all ins but its most popular. Open forge and if u hold u nearly won the game coz zerg got 0 eco behind this - 5 drones lololol. 7 pool, drone, overlord, 3 set of lings, continue lings. (all in) Open forge and full wall with 1 cannon - chrono probes behind it - u will be ahead. He will have enough to make queen pretty fast tho so he can come back if u let him go full eco. 6 pool, drone, 4 set of lings, overlord, queen (not all in, tho VERY agressive) Open forge and full wall with 1 cannon chrono probes behind it - u will be ahead on worker and bit behind on tech - more or less even but very safe. 7 pool, drones to 9, double extractor trick, 3 set of lings, overlord, queen (not all in) This builds aims to scare shit out of u and overreact with forge. Go gate and full wall with pylon, chrono zealot. Pull some probes - he cant kill u with this unless u fuck up bad but it can put u far behind coz he will expo quick. Better micro wins. I like this build a lot. drones 10, 10 pool, 10 extractor, 10 extractor trick, 11 overlord, 11 roach warren, 10 overlord (3 roach rush full all-in) Best answer for it is forge and minimum 1 cannon - i would say 2 cannons and u are very safe. With 2 cannons he wont break in 100% but u wont be as far ahead as u might think. U NEED to scout roach warren tho or go blind forge. drones 10, double extractor trick, 12 pool, 11 extractor, 10 overlord, 3 set of lings, queen (not all in but agressive and with very fast ling speed) Very fast Zealot and u should be fine - keep in mind he can switch to full ling production or full drone production - would be best if u can scout what is comming out of first larva inject. His lings will get speed after inject so if u want fast expand its crucial to identify if he made drones and expo or lings. drones 10, extractor trick, 11 overlord,11 pool, drones 15, 15 extractor, queen, 2 set of lings, expo at 18, drone, overlord 18 (very economical - even more then 14 pool 14 gas) Play normal - if u open forge u are WAY behind. If u get scared and do some wierd crap - u are WAY behind drones 10, extractor trick, 11 overlord,11 pool, drones 14, 14 extractor, queen and drones to 18, 18 roach warren, drone, 18 overlord, 18 overlord (7 roach rush - all in) boost sentry as crazy as possible and go 4 warpgate behind it - this build abuse bad forcefield controll or lack of sentry. It also punish any fishy dt/stargate play coz u wont have enough sentry and wont be able to hold ramp. Opening forge and putting 3 cannons could be answer also but i feel 3 or 4 warpgate is way better answer. It lack lings but i will gas steal u so use first zealot to kill second gas asap.
One of main ways to distinguish early pool is look exactly how many drones he make before his pool finish and if he made and overlord or not. Reading throu 6 pool is easy coz there is 5 drones mining - 6 drones mining or 7 means there will be continuation. If overlord is made before pool finish it means there will be probably more then initial 6/8 lings - if not then he probably make queen after overlord is done - this takes time and makes it that much weaker all-in and that much stronger if he decide to switch eco.
Also from my perspective i dont get why protos dont open 10 gate every single game: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/10_Gate_Tech Yes ur scouting might be slightly later but its way safer - zealot will be out much faster and if u scout him fast enough u dont even need to change ur game plan at all. U can also decide to press Zerg fast expand and just chronoboost zealots put second gate. Whole idea of Zerg early pool is to confuse and scare protos while sacrificing slightly on economy (im not talking all-ins) i feel like protos can easily go 10gate and feel way more safe.
On August 13 2011 02:46 pandaBee wrote: why is everyone only talking about 6 pool? there is a reason why i named this thread "Early Pool Counters" and not "6 pool counters". but anyways yes i'd like it if no low - level players commentated on this , as players in lower leagues do not face against optimized builds
reason why the pool timing is important is i find that each different pool timing requires a different respone of sort... because there is economical early pools and all-in early pools which require different responses
i've also run into a pretty tricky version of a 6 pool on 2-p maps where the player uses one drone to delay you from walling off and then sends the rest of their drones + the 6 lings to really screw you over. this kind of build has an amazing amount of flexibility.
i've even ran into zergs that use a later pool (usually 8-10) to try and make you overreact, wall yourself in, etc. so that they can expand quickly and drone up (and they are soon ahead in worker count even with constant worker production save the cut to create the walloff at your ramp)
so yeah please don't go thinking that i am only talking about 6 pool. it's not the only early pool build that zerg has in their arsenal
First off, more minds the better. You never know, maybe they can give a creative look on it. They may know LESS but maybe they know something you don't. If they're wrong then you get to see why they are and now not to do it yourself if ever the thought passes. Yes timings are not as crisp in the lower levels, but an early pool is an early pool. Its not very hard to screw up.
Secondly, You didn't read everyone's responses, then you go and say "why is everyone only talking about 6 pool". Please read your WHOLE thread before posting, so i don't have to quote what i said.
thirdly: There aren't "different" responses when not walling off. Every early pool have some sort of deviation from every player and every toss has some sort of style/deviation he/she plays. Naming the different responses is just a waste of time. The only way to really learn the different responses is to practice against early pools.
what you made me quote:
I don't wall off, holds every sort of early pool. This is because your probes can protect your pylon and gw, giving you time to get your zealot out. Once the zealot is out you can have 4-5 probes with him and you should be fine. here are a couple reps for timings(these are random) i know there are few that hold early pools, just click my name and it will you give you all the reps i've uploaded.
I play toss in 1v1 and in team games I always 12 pool as zerg, so I know a bit from both perspectives.
From Zerg's perspective: 6/7 pool: I need to do damage, and therefore will try to pick off pylon so no zealots can be made so my reinforcements can kill the probes 8/9/10 (gasless) pool: I need to buy time and kill the wall so when the rest of my lings arrive I can outright kill you. 10/11/12 pool speed: I need to buy time for zergling speed, then I'll run around your base and you'll be annoyed. If I don't kill you, I'll go baneling, roach, or I'll expand. Overpool: I'm going to make you throw down useless architecture while I drone up and kill you later with roaches or even higher tech units.
From Protoss Perspective: The most cost effective wall-in is the ZeNEXPuzzle wall-in, where a pylon and gateway are put on opposite sides of the ramp so a zealot can block the entire ramp. This is also beneficial because the zealot can attack lings killing the pylon without much movement, and only allows upwards of 3 lings attacking the gateway, which should not die until your next zealot comes out. A six pool may hit before your gateway is done, so pull some probes and plug up the hole until your zealot comes out. If you are really scared of baneling busts and choose to do the traditional gate/core wall-in, make sure that you have MORE THAN ONE PYLON POWERING YOUR GATEWAY. I cannot tell you how many time I or someone I 12 pool have gg'd simply because I sniped the pylon powering the gateway.
tl;dr - different pool timings have different goals and thus need different responses. ZeNEXPuzzle wall-in is recommended.
This has been discussed over and over and over and over again.
You do not need to react to anything later than a 6 pool with tech deviation of any sort.
Do your normal gate/gas/cyber otherwise you can easily fall behind in tech. Do not take your second gas immediately. If it's a 7 or 8 pool you'll want to go gate/gas/zealot/cyber with chrono on zealot.
As the lings approach your base, drop a pylon in the gap and rally the zealot inside your base. Once the zealot finishes, pull 4-5 probes and cancel the pylon. Use the zealot + probes to force the lings back. If they engage, micro probes back to mining and pull more off to fight as needed. If they're smart they will not engage.
Make a second zealot, get warpgate and a sentry. Now, depending on their build adapt. Keep a probe near the front on the chance they continue to flood lings, take your second gas and keep on sentry production. Go 3gate expo with pressure or 4gate, or 1gate expo whichever you prefer.
If you allowed them to delay your warp gate or macro at all I would advise against 4gate.
This is the optimal response. It's not difficult and you're light years ahead of them as long as you pressure soon. Do not let them redrone fully.
Zerg player here, experimenting with early pools and pondering what P could do to stop them, I came up with this:
What if you were to, upon scouting the early pool of a probably-not-all-in variant, solid wall off and rally your first zealot on the outside of the wall. You'd then be able to use that zealot to engage any zerglings that attack the wall, while keeping the zealot pressed against the wall himself to avoid a full surround. What this should do is buy you time, either through the micro battle of him trying to surround the single zealot, through the use of the zealot as an effective extension of the hp of your wall, or through the castration of his zergling count reducing the speed at which he can nibble down your wall.
Obviously, I'm not protoss but I feel as though this would be a workable way to leave yourself in a good position to continue playing the game, through taking advantage of the fact that it is a very narrow timing window he must hit, and any reinforcing zerglings will be far, far too late... so you can trade a zealot for a zergling or two and still come out ahead in the long term.
Any protoss willing to try this; I'd be interested to hear the results.
EPT
