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So, a fair while ago I ran across someone (I think it was NonY) arguing in favor of 8pylon openings in some particular thread. I forgot what the situation was, precisely, so (being incredibly bored) I decided to test a bunch of conventional openings and then test 8pylon variants thereof.
Methodology:
What I didn't do: I didn't recreate games to get the same spawn, so these might be marginally different based on mineral line layouts and whatnot.
What I did do: I played every attempt at Slower speed (and holy shit is it slow) so I'd never blow a split, and I built only 1 pylon and 1 gateway in each test, then hit 18/18 with probes and marked the time. I simulated scouting when I would have done it with each of these builds (namely, I scouted after pylon in 9pylon openings, and after gateway in 10gateway openings). I used two chronoboosts in each test on the nexus, at the times which seemed to make the most sense (i.e. the earliest I could get full or close to full use out of them). If you want to watch the replays (god help you) they are below.
Replays: [url blocked]
Results:
In order of what I perceive to be the most commonly used:
9pylon, 12gate:
Chronoboosts in this were used from 10 -> 12 food and 13->15 food. However, because the gate goes down at 12, there is a gap between the boosts that is not present in some of the other openings.
The pylon started at 0:48 ingame (all times from here on will be from the ingame clock), and thus finished at 1:13.
The gateway started at 1:40 and finished at 2:45, at 17 food.
There was a 5 second period where no probes could be build at 9 food, and a 9 second period at 12 food, for a total of 14 seconds not building probes*.
*If you wanted to be really picky about this, you would weight earlier periods higher as the total impact over a long game of holding probes for 5 seconds at 9 food is more than holding for 5 at, say, 30 food.
I hit 18 food at 3:18.
9pylon, 13gate:
Chronoboosts in this were used from 10 -> 12 food and 13 -> 15 food, with no delay in between them (I think).
The pylon started at 0:48.
The gateway started at 1:50 and finished at 2:55, at 18 food.
There was a 5 second period where no probes could be build at 9 food, and probe production was constant from there out.
I hit 18 food at 3:09
9pylon, 14gate:
Chronoboosts were used twice consecutively starting at 10 food, so 10 -> 14 or so.
The pylon started at 0:48.
The gateway started at 1:55 and finished at 3:00, at 18 food.
There was a 5 second period where no probes could be built at 9 food, and probe production was constant from there out.
I hit 18 food at 3:09
10pylon, 10gate:
The first Chronoboost was used at 25 energy, and a small part of it is wasted.
The pylon started at 0:56
The gateway started at 1:22 and finished at 2:27, and I forgot to get the food count.
There was a total of 27 seconds of no probes being produced.
I hit 18 food at 3:32
8pylon, 10gate:
The first Chronoboost was used at 9->10 food, with no wasted time, and then at 11 food again.
The pylon started at 0:40.
The gateway started at 1:21 and finished at 2:26, at 14 food
There was a total of 13 seconds of no probes being produced.
I hit 18 food at 3:35.
Conclusions:
Firstly, it is obvious that 8pylon/10gate is a better opening than 10/10. This may not be true for builds which rapidly drop a second gateway, as 10/10 will result (I think) in a slightly higher mining rate while the pylon is warping in, and will thus get you to gateway minerals faster.
Given the location of the cut probes in the 8pylon/10gate build, it is not necessary to test 8pylon with later builds. It is possible that it would be a tiny bit better to go 8pylon/12gate than 9/12, as the 8/10 and 9/12 probe cut timings are the same, but I am tired of playing at Slower :>.
[edit] Also, although I find this hard to believe, there is almost no gain in 9/14 versus 9/13. I suspect mineral@time figures will dispel this conclusion.
[edit2] Nope. 9/14 is 20 minerals ahead of 9:13 at 3:10. I highly doubt this will ever snowball into a large enough advantage to offset the 5 second delay imposed on either your first zealot or your cyb core.
So, all in all, pretty much as people would expect with the exception of 8/10 being better than 10/10. If there's interest I can go through the replays again and hunt down mineral totals at given times.
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Its interesting to see some numbers on this, thanks OP.
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What to do with this wealth of data? Thanks kzn!
So i guess 9/13 is the optimum economic build, and 8/10 is the 'preparing for cheese build'?
I wonder if you can take advantage of having that gateway 29 seconds early and build a zealot without cutting probes? Or is it better to start a zealot later and chronoboost it out?
I can't test it out right now...
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Interesting would like to see final results of 8/12 vs 9/12
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What about 8/10? That's what I've been doing lately against Protoss and Zerg on 2-player maps.
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On October 06 2010 12:57 Capteone wrote:
Interesting would like to see final results of 8/12 vs 9/12
I tested it a bit later but forgot to edit:
9/12 second run:
0:47 pylon starts
0:51 probes stop
0:55 probes start -> 4 second hold
1:34 gateway starts
1:37 probes stop
1:40 probes start -> 3 second hold, 7 total
535 minerals @ 3:01
8/12 second run:
0:34 probes stop
0:39 pylon starts
0:47 probes start -> 13 second total
1:34 gateway starts
500minerals @ 3:01 + 1 probe @ 3/4ths
I'm guessing I either fucked up the 9/12 and didn't notice on the first run or wrote something down wrong when I did the first 8/12 run, because thats not even close.
[edit] Yeah I fucked up the first 9/12 run because I somehow got an extra 8 seconds without probes in there, wtf.
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On October 06 2010 03:57 kzn wrote:
10pylon, 10gate:
The first Chronoboost was used at 25 energy, and a small part of it is wasted.
The pylon started at 0:56
The gateway started at 1:22 and finished at 2:27, and I forgot to get the food count.
There was a total of 27 seconds of no probes being produced.
I hit 18 food at 3:32
8pylon, 10gate:
The first Chronoboost was used at 9->10 food, with no wasted time, and then at 11 food again.
The pylon started at 0:40.
The gateway started at 1:21 and finished at 2:26, at 14 food
There was a total of 13 seconds of no probes being produced.
I hit 18 food at 3:35.
Conclusions:
Firstly, it is obvious that 8pylon/10gate is a better opening than 10/10.
How is it obvious?
Gate is finishing all of 1 second faster and you hit 18 food 3 seconds SLOWER. What data are you NOT showing that would make your conclusion so obvious? Early scouting? More minerals at end? What?
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I'm not sure I follow on the 8/10 build either, which is unfortunate because as stated it's the largest find.
I also had another question I was unable to figure out via searching (really not sure how to search for this w/o picking up a ton of other junk) and I didn't think it warranted it's own thread --
What are the benefits of the Pylon -> Gateway -> Pylon build? I recall day9 saying that when he first saw it it looked goofy and impractical, but he then mentioned that it did have a use. My main concern is making sure I know what it means when I scout it -- I've seen it show up in quite a few of my team games as of late. At first I assumed they were just team game noobies but it has been coming up a lot.
Should I expect heavy zealots? Stalkers? I really doubt it is conducive to teching, which really doesn't happen much in the T1 all in fest that is a team game anyways,
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On October 07 2010 05:36 VonLego wrote:
I'm not sure I follow on the 8/10 build either, which is unfortunate because as stated it's the largest find.
I also had another question I was unable to figure out via searching (really not sure how to search for this w/o picking up a ton of other junk) and I didn't think it warranted it's own thread --
What are the benefits of the Pylon -> Gateway -> Pylon build? I recall day9 saying that when he first saw it it looked goofy and impractical, but he then mentioned that it did have a use. My main concern is making sure I know what it means when I scout it -- I've seen it show up in quite a few of my team games as of late. At first I assumed they were just team game noobies but it has been coming up a lot.
Should I expect heavy zealots? Stalkers? I really doubt it is conducive to teching, which really doesn't happen much in the T1 all in fest that is a team game anyways,
It means a chronoboosted stalker and chronoboosted warp gate tech... It means a push is coming at the 8 minute mark with heavy gateway units.
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On October 07 2010 04:30 out4blood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 03:57 kzn wrote:
10pylon, 10gate:
The first Chronoboost was used at 25 energy, and a small part of it is wasted.
The pylon started at 0:56
The gateway started at 1:22 and finished at 2:27, and I forgot to get the food count.
There was a total of 27 seconds of no probes being produced.
I hit 18 food at 3:32
8pylon, 10gate:
The first Chronoboost was used at 9->10 food, with no wasted time, and then at 11 food again.
The pylon started at 0:40.
The gateway started at 1:21 and finished at 2:26, at 14 food
There was a total of 13 seconds of no probes being produced.
I hit 18 food at 3:35.
Conclusions:
Firstly, it is obvious that 8pylon/10gate is a better opening than 10/10. How is it obvious? Gate is finishing all of 1 second faster and you hit 18 food 3 seconds SLOWER. What data are you NOT showing that would make your conclusion so obvious? Early scouting? More minerals at end? What?
I'm pretty sure halving the amount of time you're not making probes is a good thing.
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Can you do a 9 pylon, 10 gate? I didn't even know there were people doing 10 pylon and 10 gate.
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I'm fairly certain 9/10 is worse than both 10/10 and 8/10, but I'll give it a shot.
Results:
Pylon @ 0:49
4 second probe hold
Gateway @ 1:18
16 second probe hold
18 food @ 3:22
Apparently, I am retarded.
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I think it's best to do it with goals in mind. Like for example, what's the best bo to get 4 stalkers out the quickest? I'll start it out with 5 zealots, I compared two bos:
9 pylon 13 gate 16 gate: 5th zealot at 4m49s
8 pylon 10 gate 18 gate: 5th zealot at 4m44s
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On October 07 2010 08:28 Dionyseus wrote:
I think it's best to do it with goals in mind. Like for example, what's the best bo to get 4 stalkers out the quickest? I'll start it out with 5 zealots, I compared two bos:
9 pylon 13 gate 16 gate: 5th zealot at 4m49s
8 pylon 10 gate 18 gate: 5th zealot at 4m44s
I would definitely say that getting 5 zealots out in 5 seconds slower but with a MUCH better economy is definitely worth it.
What is the fastest build to get 1zealot/1stalker/1sentry (very common mix to hold early agression)
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Well, define "fastest" - fastest with cut probes? Fastest with continuous (or as near to continuous as is possible) probe production?
I'd be hard pressed to come up with a unit mix where the absolute fastest wasn't a 10gate variant, but those are all pretty bad econ-wise.
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it all depends on what you are doing, I agree with out4blood's point. How can you have less probe cut time and yet come up taking longer to get 18 food. That seems backwards. Everything however depends on what you are trying to do.
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9/14 is used over 9/13 when you are scouting on pylon. Pylon scout cuts probes after the gateway (~3 seconds i/dk)
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So what if you get the pylon on 8 and the gate on 14? would that get rid of the waiting gap where you normally won't use the first chronoboost due to supply block when placing the 9 pylon? but still not mess up with your eco due to cutting probes?
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8pylon/anything has a longer probe cut than 9pylon/anything except 9py/10gate or possibly 9/11 (I haven't tested either of those). I can't see much of a reason to do 8/14, because 14 (and 13, for that matter) has no probe cuts after 10 food, and 9pylon has less of a probe cut than 8pylon. 8/12 was only a possibility because the different pylon timing removes the probe cut at 12 food, so it could theoretically have had less probe cut time than 9/12.
Pretty much the only thing I can say with any certainty is 8/10 is a better option than 10/10 if you're going gate-core and want a gate on 10 for some reason.
However, I'm gonna test 8/14 now just to be sure.
9/14 is used over 9/13 when you are scouting on pylon. Pylon scout cuts probes after the gateway (~3 seconds i/dk)
In my tests I didn't have to cut probes on 13 even when simulating scouting. I will test again to be sure.
[edit]
Results:
8/14 is closer to 9/14 than I expected, but 9/14 still has a clear edge.
9/13 does not require cut probes when done perfectly unless you double chronoboost after pylon. If you chronoboost once, build normally to 13, build the gate, and build another probe then chronoboost, the only cut probes are the ones cut by the 9pylon.
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EPT
