Hidden Spine Crawler

oesis

117 Posts

August 26 2010 06:39 GMT

I have noticed that Zerg do not have complete vision over there starting creep. This gives the ability to place a spine crawler in an opponents base that they don't see. Normally if you try to place spines in someones base they can be taken out with drones, but with this technique you can place spines down directly after pool, and the opponent won't know they are there.

This is what an observer would see.
[image loading]

This is what the opponent sees
[image loading]

This is what I see
[image loading]

This is the replay of the game where I 6 pooled proxy spine crawlered doing this. Also the person I played doesn't main zerg so I recognize he made some mistakes like the double extractors. On this plus side this shows that the extractors don't have enough vision to reveal the blind spot on creep.

Hidden Spine Crawler Replay

Also I want to give thanks to Iron for helping me test this out.

ALPINA

3791 Posts

August 26 2010 06:44 GMT

Hmm is this on all maps or only on BS ?

Subversion

South Africa3627 Posts

August 26 2010 06:46 GMT

should work on any map, u'd just have to make a judgment call

and hope he doesnt spot it too quickly

SmoKim

Denmark10304 Posts

August 26 2010 06:47 GMT

On August 26 2010 15:44 Alpina wrote:
Hmm is this on all maps or only on BS ?

Nope, i tried it(both ways) on most maps, same situation

i kinda like it tbh(altough it always me thats the victim), the more interesting ZvZ can get, the better

Neuuubeh

138 Posts

August 26 2010 06:49 GMT

Meh its a lame strategy really, hardly makes zvz more interesting, personally I get bored to death when someone tries this on me. Its also really easy to counter, so...

Tell your friend to spread out his overlords around the base and ramps and there will be no surprises what-so-ever

Ketara

United States15065 Posts

August 26 2010 07:02 GMT

I think the better question here is, why the hell doesn't Zerg have vision of all their starting creep?

No wonder early harass is so good vs. Zerg, they don't have their own creep bonus until the Queen gets out.

JaspluR

Australia174 Posts

August 26 2010 07:05 GMT

this was used during beta,
it works on all maps its the zergs vision, not the map that allows this

Strobe

United States26 Posts

August 26 2010 07:11 GMT

Most zerg players use their overlords to grant vision on the ramp.
They would see a drone move into the base and disappear somewhere.

If a worker of any race goes out of visual for even 1 minute, I'm already assuming the worst and will chase them down.

A cute tactic nonetheless =)

Blurrr

3 Posts

August 26 2010 07:14 GMT

I do this only if I notice his overlords are just sitting at his hatch. I take great care to move all my overlords to places that grant me full vision of my base in the early game as there's not much to do when you're just making drones and overlords. I don't think this would work very well against zergs who are cautious.

Eeeegor

Australia809 Posts

August 26 2010 07:15 GMT

#10

Used this quite a bit in ZvZ in beta... freaks them out when they finally see it hehe

Zalamander

Sweden1 Post

August 26 2010 07:21 GMT

#11

if you 6pool there is no point doing this anyway its better to just move in and place it so it can hit something and guard it with the 6 lings while it builds if he tried to kill it with drones.

Besides, most zergs move theire overlords around so they see it coming easily.

Wysp

Canada2299 Posts

August 26 2010 07:25 GMT

#12

6 pool makes the game pretty boring, even more so when the prick randoms zerg. I haven't lost to a 6 pool in a while but I find it usually comes down to who throws down their spine crawler first.

Conventer

Poland72 Posts

August 26 2010 07:28 GMT

#13

yea i saw this stuff before and i think if it isn't 6 pool with crawler its preety easy to defend just send 3 drones out of minerlas and they will kill it easily, but what about vision hmmm... i think it can be problem but c'mon when i send my overlord to scan i can see if there is drone coming or even it sometimes happen after he scans you so... i think its good but only because of taking those 3 drones from mining even if your crawler will be a failure BUT you need to CANCEL it because if it dies to drones mmm ;/ that would be bad situation

Viruuus

Germany451 Posts

August 26 2010 07:48 GMT

#14

Can you make like a paint picture of hatches with different mineral line placements near it, and point out where the blind spots are? Ive encountered this sometimes, but ive never thought of it in a analytic way..

Keitzer

United States2509 Posts

August 26 2010 07:50 GMT

#15

ZvZ 8 pool spine rush tactic::

8 pool
2 drones (9 supply)
1 ovie
1 drone (10 supply)
3 lings (by 3 i mean 6... 3 sets)
when lings at about halfway, send 2 drones
then make 2 ish (it's 2 or 3 depending on map) more lings
have about 200 minerals when arriving with drones
make 2 spines in their base and defend with constant lings

sometimes you have enough minerals to make a queen

-----------------------

this is impossible (and by impossible i mean FRIGGIN IMPOSSIBLE) to defend if they go 14 pool and don't know about it

however, if they do something like 10 pool, and you notice, don't do this.... econ your way back up, and make a spine or 2 in YOUR base as the "rush" factor is hard to pull since their reinforcements are instant and yours need to run cross map

----------

EDIT:: to counter this and still go 14 pool (yes it's possible) you should place your second ovie at the edge of the creep you can't see.... and if you DO see drones come into your base, pull about 4-5 drones per spine they try to make... your pool should finish in time to defend....

nihoh

Australia978 Posts

August 26 2010 07:57 GMT

#16

zerg have OVERLORdS............

me_viet

Australia1350 Posts

August 26 2010 08:30 GMT

#17

On August 26 2010 16:48 Viruuus wrote:
Can you make like a paint picture of hatches with different mineral line placements near it, and point out where the blind spots are? Ive encountered this sometimes, but ive never thought of it in a analytic way..

lol oh wow, i tot this was common knowledge. Thing to learn from this is that it's the tumours themselves/buildings/units that gives vision not the creep.

That said, all the blind spots are on the edge usually as far from their buildings as possible. If you float the overlords out a bit though, you'll see it fast enough to take it down with 4 drones.

Xapti

Canada2473 Posts

August 26 2010 08:36 GMT

#18

Yeah, like someone already said, building the spine there is generally a pretty bad idea. It can't hit the hatchery from there, and would need to re-root to do so, which gives the opponent more time to get lings, and an opportunity to kill the spine crawler before it deals as much damage.
Also, any decent zerg will spot the drone, and keep an eye on what it's up to. A drone in a zerg's base left unattended acts as a scout for the opponent, so it's always a threat even if you don't suspect any offensive attack.

On August 26 2010 16:50 Keitzer wrote:
ZvZ 8 pool spine rush tactic::
this is impossible (and by impossible i mean FRIGGIN IMPOSSIBLE) to defend if they go 14 pool and don't know about it

I don't think I faced 8 pool, but I know I got absolutely owned by i'm pretty sure a 6 pool version of this. I don't know why one wouldn't go 6 pool, since they seemed to have enough minerals for the spines.
I scouted them and knew that they were going for a rush (very likely with a spine), and did my standard 13pool, but just got decimated.

I defended this build another time on a further distance map (xel'naga caverns), but that's because of the distance involved, and/or other lucky things. Even then though, I lost some drones which made the game kinda close I think.

The problem the original time was that it wasn't very far (metalopolis), and the two spines didn't go up until the lings were close. I was overall a bit careless that game, but I still find it would be extremely difficult to deal with that build on any relatively close map.

oesis

117 Posts

August 26 2010 08:46 GMT

#19

From what I can tell the hidden locations vary on spawn location and the map but they are always on the very North, South, East and West of the creep.

In this image, the top spawning location of blistering sands, the hidden creep locations are on the South and the West of the creep.
[image loading]

Also I realize that this can be stopped with proper scouting/overlord placement but it can beat someone if they are unprepared like most cheese.

Melancholia

United States717 Posts

August 26 2010 08:48 GMT

#20

This happened to me once, and I'm not falling for it again. Missing their drone scout AND not checking your creep perimeter is pretty dumb, especially considering how goddamn slow spines build.

DarkSeerTurbo

United States105 Posts

August 26 2010 08:50 GMT

#21

thanks for sharing, but this is really only good against noobs. as a zerg player i always actively move my overlords to key vision areas in my base. this is just very very basic.

ALPINA

3791 Posts

August 26 2010 08:51 GMT

#22

Nice find ofc, but I wouldn't use that, just don't like making temporary strategies which rely on if my opponnent notices or not.

Sinensis

United States2513 Posts

August 26 2010 09:03 GMT

#23

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the crawler is set down after your 9/10 overlord leaves your main to scout and before your 15/16 overlord pops. I've lost to this a couple times and I remember thinking unless I brought a drone off resources there wouldn't have been any way to scout it until it was very late.

IKenshinI

United States132 Posts

August 26 2010 10:00 GMT

#24

You're doing it wrong. It can easily work in ~plat level play or against higher if they miss it - heres the general build:

10 Pool
9 Drone (Scout/Spine builder)
10 Ov
11 Drone
12-14 Zerglings
Plant Spine Crawler

If you time this right, your zerglings will arrive at the spine crawler while its building to defend it until its up. At that point you harass workers or just defend the crawler and see how much damage you can do in the base. Build drones/queen/overlords/gas while this is going on and by the time your attack has been defeated, you'll be in a much better economical position. The best transition from this is banelings as you'll be short on zerglings and a run-by with banelings would be your next best bet.

In the event its scouted and drones are trying to kill it - let it get to as low as health as possible and then cancel and rebuild somewhere else - this takes up a lot of their mining time doing this.

It isn't a foolproof opening but it can work and isn't all in like doing it 8 pool

OhJesusWOW

United Kingdom127 Posts

August 26 2010 10:55 GMT

#25

On August 26 2010 17:46 oesis wrote:
[image loading]

This is the most fascinating piece of information in here. Hatcheries are the most vulnerable at the respective 12, 3, 6, and 9 positions surrounding the them (in a ZvZ at least). That is extremely good information to know if any sort of Spine Crawler cheese becomes a standard opener in ZvZ (not likely in the least, but you never know...).

LPolaright

Israel9 Posts

August 26 2010 11:04 GMT

#26

I actually didn't know you don't begin with vision, so I did it a couple of times:
see replay
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64841-2v2-terran-protoss-zerg-lost-temple

fenster

United States73 Posts

August 26 2010 13:29 GMT

#27

I have a friend who did this at a LAN once when we were playing 2v2 against another team. Later that night he did it against me in a 4v4 and I forgot to scout it. ;_;

Ever since then I have learned to diligently keep vision of most of my base fairly early. Everyone saying use overlords has to remember that you have at most 2 overlords out by the time this is going down, so you have to debate if you should keep the second OL in base or move it to a forward scouting position. I usually just have my second OL hover around the creep a bit and then move out.

waffling1

599 Posts

August 30 2010 02:17 GMT

#28

there is an unevenness of vision.

you have less vision left and bottom ward. but more vision top and right ward. so on steppes, it's kinda skewed. they really should fix this

DreamSailor

Canada433 Posts

August 31 2010 15:58 GMT

#29

I like to build it behind mineral lines, as soon as they see it coming down theyll pull drones to kill it, once they've almost killed it, or its almost done I cancel it. I lose some minerals, but they lose mining time as well.

Could be good to split the crawlers up, so they have to kill em both and split their drones.

kaleidoscope

Singapore2887 Posts

August 31 2010 16:09 GMT

#30

happened to me once too, but luckily overlords are good.. just keep them towards a path towards them, to monitor if they send a proxy crawler or lings rush timings

Thoreezhea1

United States532 Posts

August 31 2010 16:18 GMT

#31

some players put their overlord at the back door.

so you could potentially sneek in 1-4 drones through the choke if you get em early enough. Hide the drones in the back until you get pool, then build baby build.

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