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So I like to fine tune builds, and I will be looking here at the 14 pool 15 hatch: what to do after the 15hatch? Here I assume a scout at the 13 drone, you can then rally your 14th drone to build the pool, and the 15th (well the 16th) to the hatchery, each time you will have the right gold amount to build. When the first queen is built, spawn larva, and then send it to the exp, while building a second queen, they will both have energy for spawn larva.
Now with a 13th drone, I have tested to build a 14th pool, and a 14drone, to see the resources when the hatch finish:
you have 600 gold, and 6 larvas available (pool take 90s, a new larva pop every 15s).
Now with your 15th hatch, you are left with 200 gold and 4 larva. But you need at least 250 gold (queen +ov), meaning you will be in shortage of mineral, and wasting lavas. What is the best follow up?
With 14 ov, 14 queen, 16 lings, 17 lings, you get 4 lings at 3:40, and your queen at 4:00. You can then take your gaz at around 21/22 pop.
With 14 drone, 15 queen, 17 lings, 18 ov, 18 extractor, 17 lings, you get the first pair of lings at 3:39, and the second pair at 4:00. The extractor finish at 3:34, so you can tech faster, but I feel you are too vulnerable with this variant.
Now there is another opening done by TLO which look nice: 12 overpool (double ET).
Here is my BO:
12 overpool
15 ov
15 drone
16 queen
18 ling
19 hatch
18 ling
19 queen
21 drone + ext
With this variant: first pair of ling at 3:19, second at 3:58.
Here is the comparison between the two builds:
scout: 1:37 for 14 pool, 2:07 for 12 overpool. You scout later, but since you are not expanding right away, you are not commiting so you can afford it.
Hatchery: 2:46 for 14 pool (it takes 120 second to build), 3:29 for 12 overpool. You expand 45 second later, there is a new larva every 15 seconds, so you lose 3 larvas.
Queen: 4:01 for 14 pool, 3:41 for 12 overpool. So you get your lava burst 20 seconds earlier each time, making up for the lost 3 larvas.
Lings: for the 12 overpool, the first set of ling is 20 second earlier, and the second 17 later. But if you scout pressure, you can permute the lings and the hatch, the hatch will start at 3:45, but the second couple of lings arrive at 3:35.
Now i have said that you get 3 more larvas with 14 pool, but that is not quite true because some time you are stuck at 3 larvas with 14 pool 15 hatch (when you build the 15 hatch, you have 3 larva, and then between the ov and the queen, you will sit at 3 larvas). Moreover, with 12 overpool, you can inject larva, when the second queen pop, the hatch is not completed, so you can inject larva + creep tumor, and then do 2 inject larva.
With the 14 pool, if you want a creep tumor, you will miss a round of inject larva. So, if you only do inject larva, the first round is 20 sec late compared to 12 overpool, but since at the second round you have 2 inject larvas, while 12 overpool is still at one, you are now 20 second ahead. But I find that you can not sustain pure rounds of inject larva with 14pool15hatch unless you make pure drone. So if at the second round you make 1 inject and 1 creep tumor, you will still be 20 second late.
What build do you prefer? Do you have better variants?
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I actually haven't thought of a zerg opening like that. I don't do the extractor trick because it doesn't really help you at all(i tested it 5 times each and compared, and i was behind 5mineral for 4 tries, and was even only once, not once did i get more minerals during my test runs) but since with TLO's build you're building a spawning pool first, then the overlord comes much later, it the extractor trick actually may be beneficial. I like this build, but the only problem with this is that when you get harassed with a probe putting down the hatchery, you can be kind of vulnerable against early 1 gate White-Ra's-fast-expand-style zealot push if he just push all the way to your ramp and hold position there to forced to go roach tech while he expands.
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On June 17 2010 01:59 TDC wrote:
I don't do the extractor trick because it doesn't really help you at all(i tested it 5 times each and compared, and i was behind 5mineral for 4 tries, and was even only once, not once did i get more minerals during my test runs) but since with TLO's build you're building a spawning pool first, then the overlord comes much later, it the extractor trick actually may be beneficial.
Yes, I forgot to say, but with a 14 pool a 9 ov is a bit more beneficial.
Now for the 12 pool, I meant a 12 overpool: 12 ol, 12 pool. This allows for no wasting larvas at all.
I like this build, but the only problem with this is that when you get harassed with a probe putting down the hatchery, you can be kind of vulnerable against early 1 gate White-Ra's-fast-expand-style zealot push if he just push all the way to your ramp and hold position there to forced to go roach tech while he expands.
No, since the first pair of lings arrive earlier than a 14pool 15 hatch (in fact at the same time you want to expand), you are not vulnerable to a probe harass, since I believe they arrive earlier than a 10gate chronoboosted zealot (but I would need to test it). Here I am delaying my second pair of lings to build the second hatch quite early. A bigger problem is that since your second hatch start later, you can sunken colony much latter. Some times the best defend is to 15hatch 14pool because you will place that sunken so much earlier.
But I think that even with 14pool15hatch, you need to cancel your hatch when you scout a Tester opening. With 12overpool you can naturally transition to roaches, and not be too behind because your queen will spawn soon.
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I think (for my style of play) you're getting gas too late at 21, but that depends on the map and MU I guess...
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i like hydras or REALLY fast lings so this build to me is meh
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Actually i saw TLO playing a more pressuring 12 overpool.
just like
12 pool
11 ov
11 drone (double ET again)
drone twice when ov pops out (or once, not quite sure at this)
should have round about 300 minerals and 3 larva left to start queen and have 3 sets of very fast lings
Also i saw this 12 overpool only in ZvP and TLO didnt go fast expansion.. i guess he threw the hatch out at about 22 and had earlier gas to put pressure on
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6 pool will definitely beat this crap
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On June 17 2010 04:05 CHOChi wrote:
Actually i saw TLO playing a more pressuring 12 overpool.
just like
12 pool
11 ov
11 drone (double ET again)
drone twice when ov pops out (or once, not quite sure at this)
should have round about 300 minerals and 3 larva left to start queen and have 3 sets of very fast lings
Also i saw this 12 overpool only in ZvP and TLO didnt go fast expansion.. i guess he threw the hatch out at about 22 and had earlier gas to put pressure on As soon as SC2 beta came out I was using that build. After a while, I noticed it's actually a pretty bad build. It's slower than a 10 pool, and probably doesn't give much or any any better economy (due to double dual gas).
People have the right to use what they want, but I've found that it's not good.
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Ok, maybe I should be more precise: I am looking for a generic macro build, and how to fine tune it.
Obviously, it won't work in ZvZ. The standard macro build is 14 pool 15 hatch, but there is a lot of fine tuning that can be done (when to get queens, lings and gaz). I am also looking at another build, 12 overpool, that has drawbacks and advantages compared to the 14 pool 15 hatch, and the aim of my OP was to compare and fine tune both builds. I am not saying one is better than the other.
On June 17 2010 04:05 CHOChi wrote:
Actually i saw TLO playing a more pressuring 12 overpool.
just like
12 pool
11 ov
11 drone (double ET again)
drone twice when ov pops out (or once, not quite sure at this)
should have round about 300 minerals and 3 larva left to start queen and have 3 sets of very fast lings
Also i saw this 12 overpool only in ZvP and TLO didnt go fast expansion.. i guess he threw the hatch out at about 22 and had earlier gas to put pressure on
You can see the build on Day9 daily: TLO against Jinro (Z vs mech). He does go for 6 lings early, this is an exemple of tuning the build ant that is exactly what I am looking for. The version I presented is more macro oriented.
Another tuning is about the gaz. In Idra's 14 pool 15 hatch play I have seen ZvsP, he goes gaz at around 20, first 100 gaz -> speed, next 100 goes to lair. In the 12 overpool build I gave, the gaz is built at 3:54, 20 seconds later than a 14 pool 15 hatch 18 gaz (which is the fastest you can do with a 14 pool 15 hatch opening). Maybe it is indeed a bit late, and I am looking for informations on this: would it be better to take it earlier? You could also take your second gas when you start speed, this would make up a bit for the time lost towards getting lair, I would need to test the timings.
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14 pool 15 hatch is like the IDEAL macro build with more larvae than a 14 hatch and more money than an earlier pool, meaning you don't delay your queen if you choose to expo. You hatch is in time before you get much more than 16 drones mining mins in main (+ gas) and you can transfer queen and build a second.
However if you are scouted which will happen a lot you won't be able to do this build. Compared to say TLO's build or 14 hatch, in the first case you have lings to kill the harassing worker so you can expo without delays and 14 hatch is earlier so you can only not do it if the opponent scouted you first [ 4 player map, not entirely sure ]
Also more vulnerable to early gates//2 gates because you committ to the expo early with no option to go 1 base fast roaches or anything.
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My 12 pool variant (in game time):
12 OL
12 pool (~1:43)
I scout with 13th drone at (~2:06)
Drone to 17
17 extractor, as pool finishes
16 queen (~2:49) I use first 25 energy on larva and second 25 on a tumor then send to nat
cancel extractor send drone to nat
19 hatch (~3:15)
18 gas (~3:21)
17 lings (~3:24)
18 OL
E trick on second geyser for another drone or set of lings
Once your 18 OL finishes you can either pump drones/lings or get an early second queen (~4:03) for a second tumor.
If you do all of you worker rallying and gas canceling correctly you shouldn't have your hatch sit on 3 larva for more than 1-3 seconds.
I don't know exactly how well this build stacks up to 14 pool 15 hatch in terms of econ, but it definitely feels more flexible and 2 early creep tumors are nice to have.
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I do 12 pool like this, don't remember who I copied it from.
9 Overlord
12 Spawning Pool + scout
14 Overlord
14 Queen[1] + 6 zerglings (if needed)
19 Hatch
Queen[2] @ 150 minerals, right after Queen[1] is done
Start gas.
Notes:
The 3rd larva will spawn ~1 second after pool has finished.
Queen[1] should spawn larva with the first 25 energy. Second energy can go to creep tumor, after which it should go to the expansion hatch. It will have ~25 energy when expansion hatch pops.
Queen[2] will spawn together with the spawned larva on Hatch, enabling continuous spawn larva’ing on main.
It gives a bunch of larva and early lings and queens to be safe from most cheeses. They also provide scouting information so if you do not see any pressure you can drone hard. It does not start out an economic superpower like 14 pool 15 hatch, so you have to drone hard to make up.
If you scout 2 gate, take 19 gas fast instead of hatch, drop roach warren, drone+lord and save mins and gas until roach warren and larvae pop.
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am liking 12 pool and late gas alot more these days, since i like having queens early
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I do 14 pool 16 hatch (or 14 pool 15 hatch depends on map) all games vs T and P. If you are playing on korean level in tournament and all, sure it may be too risky, but I havn't had much problems, with several hundred games in pre-patch plat and then diamond. It's just a micro battle, you got a queen and faster supply of lings... his zeals will lose momentum. Just dance around while building a spine on expo, unless he's godly he's fighting a downhill battle and will loose in the end. If you are playing games on b.net it's np.
Dosn't work vs proxys though, in that case just cancel and 1 base roach/muta
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I still like to get super early pools, more like the asian style. It's not that I do it because they're korean, and therefore superior, the early queen, and lings allow a lot of information and more options to branch off imo.
my favorites are 10 pool, 13 pool, or 13 gas into 13 pool (really cute build; gets you 100 gas for speedlings the second the spawning pool pops)
then get natural at 13,14,15,16 or play 1 base muta ling
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EPT
