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On March 29 2010 23:28 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I'm pretty sure if you don't kill 4-5 probes with this build you are MASSIVELY behind - going 10 rax 10 gas 10 supply fucks your eco pretty good...
I haven't tested this BO TvP since the first patch tho, so I'm gonna give it a go.
Yah.
I played someone last night who did this from his choke and only got about 3 probe kills (from my assimilator that I didn't pull). He then had to play catchup since my economy isn't really affected. If you see a reaper you should be running your probes towards your gateway so the reaper gets closer to your gateway as your stalker appears, thus reducing your probe losses. If you spot a reaper you shouldn't just keep mining and let him get free kills.
Would you run your probes if you got colossus dropped? Or if you got DT harassed? Or if there was a muta harass?
I think players need to go back to basics sometimes :/
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I'd go for 2-gate-stalkers in PvT: Stalkers are IMO underestimated against Terran, mostly because Marauders deal a lot of DMG to the Stalkers, but 2-gate Stalkers are very good against all sorts of cheese with bunkers, reapers, SCV-rushes with Marines etc. They're also nice against Banshees, Hellions, Drops of some sort etc.
And against Marauders, just go for Robo after 2 gates, chronoboost an Immortal if you think the T will push soon with lots of Marauders or go for an Observer and see how many Immortals you need.
I also think Zealots aren't that good against Marauders, Reapers and all sorts of cheese anyways or at least not before the Leg-Upgrade.
I go for 2-gate Stalker into Robo against T and P and so far I think it's pretty solid.
It also translates very well into different follow-ups: You can for example play very aggressive thanks to rather early Warpgates and Immortals, good scouting thanks to Observer and make a very offensive pylon, add 1-2 gates and keep pressuring the opponent (if he went for an early expansion or is teching for example).
You can also play defensively very well thanks to Stalkers and the scouting of the Observer and take an expansion or you can do some sort of creative stuff with the vision of the observer and stalker-blink or Immortal-drops with prism etc.
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On March 29 2010 21:59 fulmetljaket wrote:
the reaper jumpes up onto ledges. there is NO SIGHT ON LEDGES WITHOUT A SCOUT. use this to your advantage. when the reaper jumps up on the ledge, have a friendly cannon or two waiting for him.
should hold him off for long enough to get some stalkers.
if not... you should research build orders more, cause my reaper rushes have def been beat before
Cannots don't seem like the most viable solution to reaper proxy to me. First off you're sacrificing a faster gateway and therefore your entire tech to make cannons, currently some of the most useless static defense. If the terran opts to NOT reaper proxy, you're already behind.
And if your timing is off and a single reaper gets past warping-in cannons and into your probe line, that's instant GG. A smart terran would send in his scouting scv after it finishes the proxy rax and see the cannons anyway, letting him either pick the right spot to hop up the cliff or switching strategies altogether.
And let's not forget maps like Kulas Ravine where the reapers jump down, not up, so sight isn't an issue.
On March 30 2010 01:33 kickinhead wrote:
I'd go for 2-gate-stalkers in PvT: Stalkers are IMO underestimated against Terran, mostly because Marauders deal a lot of DMG to the Stalkers, but 2-gate Stalkers are very good against all sorts of cheese with bunkers, reapers, SCV-rushes with Marines etc. They're also nice against Banshees, Hellions, Drops of some sort etc.
Does 2-gate stalker slow the timing for the first stalker? If it does I'd be skeptical about using this. Getting that very first stalker should be protoss's main priority.
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this happened to me yesterday on Desert Oasis. proxy reaper rush, guy did a 9 rax 9 gas 10 depot build and the reaper got to me as soon as my first marine popped out, which died and it was gg. really impossible to beat unless you KNOW its coming.
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On March 30 2010 01:52 dudeman001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2010 01:33 kickinhead wrote:
I'd go for 2-gate-stalkers in PvT: Stalkers are IMO underestimated against Terran, mostly because Marauders deal a lot of DMG to the Stalkers, but 2-gate Stalkers are very good against all sorts of cheese with bunkers, reapers, SCV-rushes with Marines etc. They're also nice against Banshees, Hellions, Drops of some sort etc.
Does 2-gate stalker slow the timing for the first stalker? If it does I'd be skeptical about using this. Getting that very first stalker should be protoss's main priority.
You can get the first Stalker out before adding the second Gateway if you want - at least that's what I do. You can even chronoboost the first stalker, but I prefer using all my boosts on Probes right after the first pylon finishes - really gets your macro going and in my experience, the stalker comes out soon enough to defend against reaper-harrassment.
Maybe on Desert Oasis it's safer to chronoboost the stalker, just because fast-reapers are often used on this Map, the opponent knows where u are from the start and they have a pretty short distance to cover...
Atm I often go for Council instead of robo and add few Zealots when Leg-Upgrade is finished, if the opponent is pressuring you with marauders that is... Then you can get rather fast Storm which are just awesome against M&M.
Also, you should maybe mix in a Sentry to defend your ramp and shield when using lots of Stalkers, because Marauders are really scary. :S
But I like Robo with Immortals and Council for Leg-Upgrade and then Templars both very much. I just don't like using Zealots without Leg-Upgrade in the early-game because they suck against reaper, hellions, SCV+Rines-Cheese, and Marauders if you don't have Sentrys and get off some nice force fields behind the marauders so your Zealots can get to them...
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Lemme point a few things out that, I'm guessing, make this especially nasty.
Remember, the very purpose of proxies is to shorten the travel time of attacking units. The travel time is measured from the building location to the choke points for most units, but not reapers, because they can enter the base in many locations. In this way they are similar to reaver+shuttle from SC1. But unlike going reavers, barracks doesn't require 200 Gas AND can lift-off which means you don't have to pick a special, sheltered spot to place the proxy.
All that makes searching for proxies damn hard, thus making the strategy stronger.
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On March 27 2010 08:36 cartoon]x wrote:
hmm. very interesting. well, let's consider what maps this is effective on. Desert oasis, primarily? You may consider sending an earlier scout on that map, like 9 pylon > scout. So let's assume you know it's coming. If you scout the barracks soon enough, you could delay the building of the tech lab by using your probe to stand in its build location. You may be able to buy enough time to get a stalker out if you do this real gosu like. You could also attempt to wall off certain key areas of cliff with your buildings, making it more difficult for him to harass probes / easier to get him backed into a corner if he tries. You will be going for stalker, so your goal is to survive from 3:35 to about the 4:00 mark. If you can manage to delay the tech lab then you should be great; after all, the barracks will have to be pretty close to your base. Otherwise the base layout is probably the key. Pulling probe will not put you at a disadvantage as long as you don't lose too many. After all, he did go proxy barracks > reapers. You shouldn't be pulling ALL the probes. Reapers without the speed upgrade can be chased away a little better. With the good enough micro and building placement you should be able to keep him running. If you can manage to pull back some probes he gets hits in on, I think you can last those 25 seconds. Also, at what point are you building your gateway? Build it earlier and get your zealot out a little earlier.
This.
Pylon placement behind probes to block reaper in and let your zealot catch up, gg.
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I'm not sure what the timing on scouting would be. I usualy go 13 gate. no zeal straight to a stalker. I scoute after pylon or gateway depending on the map. You should see in their base that something is up. (though like i said i'm not sure if it would be on time)
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EPT
