• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
TeamLiquid Liquipedia LiquidDota LiquidLegends
EDT 17:26
CEST 23:26
KST 06:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[BSL15] Ro16 Recap Pt.13Lore of the Nexus: The Angiris Council0DHM Valencia: Power Rank52[TSL9] Prize Pool & Talent18Code S RO10 - Group B, Day 1 Preview (Season 2)7
Community News
2022 AfreecaTV Challengers Starleague Season 211BSL 2v2 ProLeague x ShieldBattery - SIGN UP NOW!14Code S RO10 Groups announced, RO20 final results1ESL Open #128: ByuN, MaxPax, Scarlett win3Artosis to leave Korea after GSL Season 3, possibility of online GSL casts?87
StarCraft 2
General
Doublelift on State of SC2 and the Various Regions Zest Retires Rogue & Trap out for DHM Valencia? Forbidden Ground buildings DHM Valencia: Power Rank
Tourneys
DreamHack Masters: Valencia 2022 - Main Event [TSL 9] Qualifiers HSC XXI Qualifiers [GSL 2022] Code S:Season 2 - Ro10 Group A ProBots 2022 Season 2
Strategy
herO's PvZ Simple Questions Simple Answers What should I try to work on to improve my TvZ [G] YAKS LOTV: Yet Another hotKey Setup - zerg
Custom Maps
Simple Questions/Answers [A] SC Real Scale
External Content
Mutation # 324 Violent Night Mutation # 323 Well Trained Mutation # 322 Warp Zone Mutation # 321 Rise From Ashes
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion repmastered.app: replay sharing and analyzer site BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [BSL15] Ro16 Recap Pt.1 YellOw wins poker tournament for $696,000 USD
Tourneys
Hawk vs Artosis Show match July 6th 50$ prize pool No-Worries League - Similar-Skill Match-Making Deathfate Pro Team League 2 Announcement [BSL15] - RO16 Group C - Friday 17:00 CEST
Strategy
A new RTS map for scbw Project: Strat Update ZvT Guardian Hydra Optimized Strategy before the gosus
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Final Fantasy XIV Diablo Immoral The PlayStation 5 Crossfire: Legion - A new RTS combining C&C and SC
Dota 2
[DPC 21-22] Tour 3 Discussion/LR Official Dota and Chess General Discussion TL.net migration megathread + LiquidDota archive LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net LiquidDota Site Rules
League of Legends
[Patch 12.7] Arcana Skins Release Discussion LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net [Summer Split] LoL Esports General Discussion [Patch Notes] Release General Discussion
Heroes of the Storm
HotS: WP and Funny Moments Lore of the Nexus: The Angiris Council Mapping Heroes: Battleground Stats
Hearthstone
TL Mafia
British Empire Mini Mafia II TL Mafia Community Thread Chezinu streak(s) Mafia Sengoku Mafia Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread NASA and the Private Sector If you're seeing this topic then another mass shooting happened and people disagree on what to do The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
Day[9] Fan Club soO Fan Club Zest Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion Movie Discussion! [TV] HBO Game of Thrones [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2021 - 2022 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion 2021 NFL/CFB Season McBoner: A hockey love story
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Starcraft 2 No longer going on top of Start Bar The Ultimate Mouse Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Helping
ChristianS
On Radicalization and S…
plasmidghost
Bravery and cowardice…
Starlightsun
My daughter wants to pla…
JoinTheRain
On gun violence in America…
MrBitter
First time having "S*X".
Garnet
Gomorrah
Broodwar4lyf
Getting Back to it..!.20 years…
FuDDx
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1333 users

[G] Judging a Melee Map

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
Barrin
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5002 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-09 14:22:02
September 24 2012 16:28 GMT
#1
[G] Judging a Melee Map

Arguably more effective than a guide on how to make a melee map.

Not meant to replace actual testing.


I have decided to (perhaps temporarily) semi-retire from making and studying melee maps. If you're wondering, I'm doing UMS/Arcade mapmaking now so I'm not far ^^. This post could be viewed as a summary of most (aiming for all) of the more important things I understand about analyzing and judging melee maps - I am writing them here before I forget.



What are we judging? You mean there's more to this than pretty pictures?

If you put a lot of emphasis on aesthetics, you are not an ideal judge of competitive melee maps. Sorry. There are dozens of people capable of decorating a map from scratch to a better-than-acceptable level in less than an hour or two.

Every strategy works better on some maps than others because each map encourages different ways of playing, even it if may sometimes seem slight. Games are quick and bloody on Steppes of War for tangible reasons; likewise, there is no mistaking that macroing up on Metropolis is generally a safe bet.

But not every map gets the privilege of being played as much as those have, so we must use our brain to reconstruct as many games as possible. Make no mistake, actually recreating a single complete game in your head is incredibly inefficient and virtually impossible if you value accuracy.

What we do instead is get a feel for all possible scenarios (broad strokes, but as detailed as you can) and put emphasis on those which are most likely (from skilled players that are trying to win). You can't just look at a single replay and think that it encompasses everything about that map - not even close. The substance of a map consists of tendencies along many spectra that are nearly impossible to analyze completely due to an inescapable lack of information.

IMO, the key is to look at it from a variety of limited perspectives. The following is essentially a list of perspectives I have found most helpful, separated into stages purely for convenience (not a rule).


0: Prerequisite Knowledge


Game Data
- Actual (hidden) unit and building stats/abilities/etc.
- Map mechanics: Rocks, XWT, LoSB's, Pathable/Cliff/Air, etc.
- Economic understanding: supply cap, worker cost, workers per base, expansion cost, resource collection rate, minerals/supply of basic units, etc.

How the pros play
- Have experience with the game data in action.
- How do people actually play the game at a competitive level? How do they actually apply the game data in performance? What are they capable of (this goes beyond current metagame)?
- It's a good idea to be very good at playing the game yourself.

Six Separate Matchups
- Mirror: ZvZ, PvP, TvT
- Core: ZvP, ZvT, PvT


1: Sizing It Up


Map Boundaries
- All distances are within this area. Get a feel for it.

Initial Rush Distance (Main2Main)
- Extremely important, as it sets the pace and leeway for initial build orders.
- Shorter distance = earlier aggression becomes more viable, more easily punished if failed.
- Longer distance = earlier aggression becomes less viable, harder to punish if failed.
- All things are more important (have a larger impact on the game) the earlier they are used - the 'snowball' effect.

Central Map Width
- If the "Main2Main" distance is the length of a map, then the Central Map Width is it's width.
- How easy is it to cut off or scout the thinnest part of the center of the map? How long does it take to move from one side to the other?


2: 'Features'


Global Resource Density
- Look at all of the bases that can plausibly be held by a single person simultaneously. In general, these bases shouldn't be too close or too far from each other.

Local Resource Density
- Specific areas on the map with more bases are more easily defended and encourage more rapid expanding.
- Areas with less bases are harder to defend and encourage less rapid expanding.

Gas & Tech
- Gas availability is strongly related to players' ability to use more variety and higher tech units.
- This is very normal on most maps - but on the maps that have unusual gas it is worth paying attention to.

Aggressive vs. Defensive Expanding
- Generally, expanding away from your enemy is a defensive move and expanding towards them is an aggressive move. Keep in mind a great offense can be a good defense.
- Zerg usually has the hardest time expanding towards the enemy.
-There should be a good mix between aggressive and defensive expanding - going too far with either is often sub-optimal.

Expansion 'Flow'
- How easily does one base 'flow' into another? Is there a small path that directly connects the two bases? How hard is it to take?
- How hard is it to hold? Does it flow into more bases?

Attack-Defense Pivot (Army Positioning Gameplay)
- For each likely set of bases, identify the longest line you can make between the two outermost ground chokes that lead directly into them. How far away are the farthest two entrances?
- Identify how easy it is to defensively maneuver troops in this area vs. offensively. What blocks the defender (is it too 'linear')? What blocks the attacker? What if the attacker splits up his forces? What if one split is air/drop and is sent into the main?
- Each player has an area like this on their side of the map. As time goes on, the distance between these two areas becomes more important than the initial rush distance.

Raw Base Vulnerabilities
- Consists of everything not directly related to it's distance to other bases.
- Get a good feel for each base on an individual basis. Obviously, more vulnerable bases are less likely to be taken because they are more easily lost: beware of "winner's expansions".
- Get a good feel for overall vulnerabilities in a late-game scenario. Put it in context with it's distance to other bases (see section on Attack-Defense Pivot above).
- Note that sum of overall vulnerabilities in context with distances is probably the number one factor (that you have control over) that affects the 'skill cap'.

Cliffs
- Pay attention to cliffs. Where are they (especially if near the main)? How much cliff? How far are they from chokes/entrances and base locations? If there is enough in the right places, tactics and build orders can be built around cliffs.
- Are there any protruding cliffs overlooking important paths that collo, siege, or infestor (fungal) can utilize?

Air Space
- Note where and how much are space there is. More air space (especially if in the right places) gives more power to air units.
- Some air space lets units sneak by... some gives leverage (especially for Carrier/BC/BL), even if as little air space as a cliff.
- How exposed are mineral lines to air/drops?

Percent Pathable & Obstructions
- How much freedom do players have when moving units around the map?
- Too much freedom and it gets hard to find chokes to defend your bases, which can actually limit strategic depth (by making many strategy unviable).
- Too little freedom takes away too much autonomy and choices. You want players to have a lot of potential, not be limited by a confining map.

Muta Harass
- Pay attention to how easy it is for mutalisks (and banshees/void rays I guess) to jump from one base to another (ex: main to third) vs. how hard it is for ground units to catch up to them.
- How easy is it to "trap" the mutalisks? How many turrets/cannons/spores(queens) does it take to do this efficiently (if possible)?

Scouting / Map Awareness
- Are there multiple spawn locations? They can make cheeses harder to scout, but they can also give more safety to very quick FE's against midgame timings.
- Consider overlord movement speed and sight range. Understand that bigger mains are harder to scout.
- How much can an overlord see before a marine/stalker/queen arrives?
- Where are places overlords can hide, and what can they see there? What don't they see?
- Where are the watch towers?
- How hard is it to hide a proxy?
- How easy is it to see any ground movement coming through the map (at multiple intervals? Air movement? How easy is it to sneak something into the main to snipe tech?
- Does a high concentration of bases make scouting for expansions difficult?

Defensible Positions - Openness
- Attempt to highlight all areas that seem significantly easier to defend than attack (high ground, chokes). Put these areas in context with where clumped up or important bases are, and get a feel for the likely potential interactions.
- Also consider areas with high openness; Zerg in particular have an easy time attacking these areas.
- All units without splash tend to perform better against units with splash in areas with more openness.

Map Control
- There are 4 main reasons to want to control the map; (1) secure expansions, (2) deny expansions, (3) map awareness, (4) deny map awareness.
- Are these useful goals in this map? How much do you need to control the map to do those things? How much does controlling the map actually help you do those things?
- You do not actually control an area on the map if your opponent can attack your position and win the fight. How well can units utilize terrain features to hold the positions?
- Are some attack paths easy to cut off? Are some very hard to cut off?
- How viable is a tank/turret/bunker push?
- How easy is it to spread creep to important locations?


3: Game Stages


Early Game
- How easy is it to take and hold your natural? Xel'naga Caverns hard or Shakuras Plateau easy? Build orders are formed around this.
- Understand that people aren't going to be flying around with fleets of battlecruisers at this stage - the terrain should be shaped accordingly (each tile really means a lot near the natural).

Mid Game
- Consider all possibilities at the 3-4 base stage. Pick out the types of strategies that seem strongest (there is often fewer of these than you might expect)
- This is arguably the most important way to look at a a map - second only to initial rush distance - because this is often the first stage a pro player considers when crafting a strategy for the map (source:Day[9] Daily #44). Only then do they look at what it best leads out of and the best way to lead into it.

Late Game
- Consider what the game looks like when the players have almost all the bases on the map.
- At this stage, both players have reasonable access to all tools within their arsenal, and are nearing maximum upgrades. Anything goes - with a lot of bases to defend and attack.
- Aside from the metagame's ideal late game army position, it's hard to predict what will probably happen here; you might be better off considering whether or not one player probably won by now and if this stage is just formality.


4: What is normal? What is needed?


Metagame
- As previously mentioned this is all about trends and tendencies, but only one of them is truly dynamic in a given map. Players try to use map features to help them win, but in a freshly new map they also start off using build orders and strategies meant for other maps - things that have worked for them in the past. A smart player will expect this and use map features to help them punish it. An experienced player will anticipate this innovation and respond accordingly. A smart and experienced player will... you get the idea. This is known as the 'metagame'.
-It is important to understand the map's role in this metagame. Even brilliantly interesting maps are shunned if they stray too far away from the currently established metagame.

Compare to Other Maps
- Try to place a category on the map. [Big map? Medium? Small?], [Short rush distance? Long?], [2 players? 3? 4?], [10 bases? 12? 14? 16?], [Rotational symmetry? Mirror? Mixed/shifted?], [Square? Rectangle?], [Easy nat? Hard nat?]
- Try to find the map(s) in current use that is most similar in category to the new map. What details of the new map set it apart? What is genuinely new/unique? Is the newer map worth it?
- We should keep using accepted maps until we're sure they suck or they run out of steam, but keep in mind that innovation keeps the game alive.

Map Pools
- Brush up on map pool philosophy here: [G] Map Pool Creation Guide
- Some maps are already established, great, and new enough and don't need maps of a similar category overlapping with it in a map pool. A map can be a little better than others but still not worth putting in the map pool over the others (throw it an honorable mention).


5: Icing on the Cake


Balance
- Try to have a reasonable mix/balance of defensive and aggressive expansions (in terms of distances)
- There should be a nice mix/balance of open and tight areas throughout the map.
- Siege tanks that can cliff a natural or third hatchery are highly discouraged (etc.)
- Make sure protoss has a reasonably easy time with sim city at nat and third.
- Make sure zerg has plenty of flanking opportunities.
- If all matchups are within 45-55%, we consider the map balanced. 40-60% can be worth trying.

"Fun" and "Spectator Value"
- Do not make too many new things for players to learn; it can overwhelm them which is essentially what stress (kinda opposite of fun) is.
- At the same time, it's important for the map to stand out. People should be able to look at a feature or set of features and be like "woah, that looks cool," as their mind races to imagine scenarios/strategies playing out on it.
-Heavy macro, turtle-based maps quickly lose their novelty/replayability/watchability. They have deceptively low skill caps.
- People like to see variety (a lot of viable strategies) - they like to see very different types of forces clashing.

Clean & Pleasant Aesthetics
- Progamers don't care about your waterfalls, rivers, jungles, etc. They want different areas of the map easily distinguishable; they don't want to guess where the pathing is (or isn't).
- At the same time, we like our special shiny SC2 graphics (in contrast with BW graphics). The bar isn't that high, but it is true that some maps have ridden on stellar aesthetics.


6: Finish


Reflection & Meditation
- Try to think about everything you understand about SC2/mapmaking and how it applies to the map. Or just pick one feature and focus on it. Maybe clear all other thoughts first.
- Maybe do this when you are falling asleep, or taking a shower, or in a car ride, (or after you smoked a bowl ^^), or actually playing on the map.
- Always keep your mind open to new perspectives.

Map Concept vs. Execution
- A map concept is the idea you have for it in your mind - what you were aiming for. Execution is how close you actually got to the concept (most errors are in proportions).
- When judging a map, try to get an idea for what it's concept probably was or probably should be. If the actual map isn't that good, compare it's execution against what it's concept probably was or probably should be. Sometimes maps with poor execution have really, really good concepts - do not let these concepts be forgotten.

Conclusion
- Think of maps kinda like fruits. Can it be rotten (poor execution)? Yes, though thankfully you can keep trying.
- But is an orange better than an apple (map concepts)? No. But I have an idea of which one I'd choose if I wanted something juicy.


- Barrin


PLEASE REPLY WITH ANY ANALYZING PERSPECTIVES NOT LISTED ABOVE
Grandfather of LotV's resource model. "Fewer Resources per Base"
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
September 24 2012 16:35 GMT
#2
If you're wondering, I'm doing UMS/Arcade mapmaking now

omg teeeach me
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
myRZeth
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1047 Posts
September 24 2012 17:23 GMT
#3
oh wow
good "red suture"
i m not sure whether this explains what i mean^^
BongChambers
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada591 Posts
September 24 2012 17:47 GMT
#4
Maps are quite frankly top 3 most important things about SC2 or BW or quite frankly any RTS, its the battle feild in which all your battles take places, just ask any General or commanding officer how important knowing the Terrain and layout of the battleground is.

Gotta love MapMakers that really put time and effort into everything about thier map rather then just "ooo 4 base map and pretty doodads all over the place "
420
ArcticRaven
Profile Joined August 2011
France1406 Posts
September 24 2012 18:05 GMT
#5
On September 25 2012 02:47 BongChambers wrote:
Maps are quite frankly top 3 most important things about SC2 or BW or quite frankly any RTS, its the battle feild in which all your battles take places, just ask any General or commanding officer how important knowing the Terrain and layout of the battleground is.

Gotta love MapMakers that really put time and effort into everything about thier map rather then just "ooo 4 base map and pretty doodads all over the place "


Hahaha I guess my maps don't get enough exposure
[Govie] Wierd shit, on a 6 game AP winning streak with KOTL in the trench. I searched gandalf quotes and spammed them all game long, trenchwarfare247, whateva it takes!
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5304 Posts
September 24 2012 19:57 GMT
#6
This is a big read, and quite a good one. I could definitely see this helping just about everyone, but even more so the beginners out there. Sticky it, perhaps?
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9328 Posts
September 24 2012 20:04 GMT
#7
7: Thirds
FlaShFTW: Does he approve?
a) if yes, good third.
b) if no, bad third. Improve

good list :D
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
September 24 2012 20:30 GMT
#8
Awesome post. Why aren't you a motm judge again?
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Barrin
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5002 Posts
September 25 2012 02:40 GMT
#9
On September 25 2012 04:57 NewSunshine wrote:
This is a big read, and quite a good one. I could definitely see this helping just about everyone, but even more so the beginners out there. Sticky it, perhaps?

Didn't want to suggest it myself, but since you did :>
Poll: Sticky?

Yes (21)
 
66%

No (11)
 
34%

32 total votes

Your vote: Sticky?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No



On September 25 2012 05:04 FlaShFTW wrote:
...

good list :D

ty :>

On September 25 2012 05:30 Fatam wrote:
Awesome post. Why aren't you a motm judge again?

I used to be actually. At least 3 MotM's, prbly 4, maybe 5. Forget ><




BTW I forgot, PLEASE EXPLAIN ANY PERSPECTIVES I MISSED. If you can't think of any, say that too :>
Grandfather of LotV's resource model. "Fewer Resources per Base"
Barrin
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5002 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-25 02:48:36
September 25 2012 02:46 GMT
#10
some day i will never click quote instead of edit again
Grandfather of LotV's resource model. "Fewer Resources per Base"
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-25 02:47:38
September 25 2012 02:47 GMT
#11
tldr; play the map before judging it


good job barrin
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
GT350
Profile Joined May 2012
United States270 Posts
September 25 2012 03:45 GMT
#12
Great job with this!
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
September 25 2012 04:11 GMT
#13
But these are also useful for how to judge your own map during its construction and provide some useful vocabulary for talking about maps and giving feedback after you have played on somebody else's map.

Very concise, as large as it is.

I'll spend some time thinking about whether you've missed anything this weekend.
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2393 Posts
September 25 2012 04:37 GMT
#14
The only I think you've missed is- What makes this map special? What maps the map different from the other maps in the map pool? What was the motivation behind making it? What gameplay does it feature?

All of these questions are asking about the map concept. Its what kind of gameplay you are trying to emphasize. Maybe the map addresses something in the metagame, like early Protoss third bases. Or the static three/four base layout that we see so often. Basically, there should be some purpose to the map, even if its something as simple as a learning map (developing editor skills) or to be perfectly balanced.
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
September 25 2012 05:52 GMT
#15
On September 25 2012 13:37 monitor wrote:
The only I think you've missed is- What makes this map special? What maps the map different from the other maps in the map pool? What was the motivation behind making it? What gameplay does it feature?

All of these questions are asking about the map concept. Its what kind of gameplay you are trying to emphasize. Maybe the map addresses something in the metagame, like early Protoss third bases. Or the static three/four base layout that we see so often. Basically, there should be some purpose to the map, even if its something as simple as a learning map (developing editor skills) or to be perfectly balanced.

This might be the most important thing for mappers to consider once they are confident in their basic competence.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Samro225am
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany982 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-25 07:17:38
September 25 2012 07:15 GMT
#16
On September 25 2012 14:52 EatThePath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 13:37 monitor wrote:
The only I think you've missed is- What makes this map special? What maps the map different from the other maps in the map pool? What was the motivation behind making it? What gameplay does it feature?

All of these questions are asking about the map concept. Its what kind of gameplay you are trying to emphasize. Maybe the map addresses something in the metagame, like early Protoss third bases. Or the static three/four base layout that we see so often. Basically, there should be some purpose to the map, even if its something as simple as a learning map (developing editor skills) or to be perfectly balanced.

This might be the most important thing for mappers to consider once they are confident in their basic competence.


The main problem I see with this attitude is that people think they just have to try to get some cool features together and forget about tweaking all the small think, adjust chokes and spaces , consider flow.

But yes, it is a smart strategic decision to make something cool, conceptual that stands out and looks like it will play different (just hope that people go beyond the two/three bases that you made standard

And these two points:

On September 25 2012 11:47 Plexa wrote:
tldr; play the map before judging it


good job barrin

EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
September 25 2012 07:49 GMT
#17
On September 25 2012 16:15 Samro225am wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 14:52 EatThePath wrote:
On September 25 2012 13:37 monitor wrote:
The only I think you've missed is- What makes this map special? What maps the map different from the other maps in the map pool? What was the motivation behind making it? What gameplay does it feature?

All of these questions are asking about the map concept. Its what kind of gameplay you are trying to emphasize. Maybe the map addresses something in the metagame, like early Protoss third bases. Or the static three/four base layout that we see so often. Basically, there should be some purpose to the map, even if its something as simple as a learning map (developing editor skills) or to be perfectly balanced.

This might be the most important thing for mappers to consider once they are confident in their basic competence.


The main problem I see with this attitude is that people think they just have to try to get some cool features together and forget about tweaking all the small think, adjust chokes and spaces , consider flow.

But yes, it is a smart strategic decision to make something cool, conceptual that stands out and looks like it will play different (just hope that people go beyond the two/three bases that you made standard

And these two points:

Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 11:47 Plexa wrote:
tldr; play the map before judging it


good job barrin


Well you know I favor novelty.

However I was seconding (what I understand to be) monitor's standpoint, which is that the best state of mind for mapmaking is where you consider the holistic experience of the map, the total outcome of what you've made. Having the vision to access that during the creative process and not in retrospect is the hardest thing there is about mapping; I'm not sure anyone is consistently at that level yet.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Samro225am
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany982 Posts
September 25 2012 09:27 GMT
#18
On September 25 2012 16:49 EatThePath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 16:15 Samro225am wrote:
On September 25 2012 14:52 EatThePath wrote:
On September 25 2012 13:37 monitor wrote:
The only I think you've missed is- What makes this map special? What maps the map different from the other maps in the map pool? What was the motivation behind making it? What gameplay does it feature?

All of these questions are asking about the map concept. Its what kind of gameplay you are trying to emphasize. Maybe the map addresses something in the metagame, like early Protoss third bases. Or the static three/four base layout that we see so often. Basically, there should be some purpose to the map, even if its something as simple as a learning map (developing editor skills) or to be perfectly balanced.

This might be the most important thing for mappers to consider once they are confident in their basic competence.


The main problem I see with this attitude is that people think they just have to try to get some cool features together and forget about tweaking all the small think, adjust chokes and spaces , consider flow.

But yes, it is a smart strategic decision to make something cool, conceptual that stands out and looks like it will play different (just hope that people go beyond the two/three bases that you made standard

And these two points:

On September 25 2012 11:47 Plexa wrote:
tldr; play the map before judging it


good job barrin


Well you know I favor novelty.

However I was seconding (what I understand to be) monitor's standpoint, which is that the best state of mind for mapmaking is where you consider the holistic experience of the map, the total outcome of what you've made. Having the vision to access that during the creative process and not in retrospect is the hardest thing there is about mapping; I'm not sure anyone is consistently at that level yet.


we could call ourselves lucky if we all were on the level to make solid maps consistently
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
September 25 2012 09:53 GMT
#19
we could call ourselves lucky if we all were on the level to make solid maps consistently


Yeah definitely no one is there yet. Even some of the most "famous" community mapmakers have bad maps. For instance a couple of LSprime's most popular maps (got to be on GSL and hence the rest of the tourneys, although that has more to do w/ the prime mapmakers' connections than anything, but that's another story) weren't balanced: Atlantis Spaceship and Metropolis.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Barrin
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5002 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-25 13:12:42
September 25 2012 13:10 GMT
#20
On September 25 2012 13:37 monitor wrote:
The only I think you've missed is- What makes this map special? What maps the map different from the other maps in the map pool? What was the motivation behind making it? What gameplay does it feature?

All of these questions are asking about the map concept. Its what kind of gameplay you are trying to emphasize. Maybe the map addresses something in the metagame, like early Protoss third bases. Or the static three/four base layout that we see so often. Basically, there should be some purpose to the map, even if its something as simple as a learning map (developing editor skills) or to be perfectly balanced.

Well I didn't completely miss that,

On September 25 2012 01:28 Barrin wrote:
...


4: What is normal? What is needed?


Metagame
- As previously mentioned this is all about trends and tendencies, but only one of them is truly dynamic in a given map. Players try to use map features to help them win, but in a freshly new map they also start off using build orders and strategies meant for other maps - things that have worked for them in the past. A smart player will expect this and use map features to help them punish it. An experienced player will anticipate this innovation and respond accordingly. A smart and experienced player will... you get the idea. This is known as the 'metagame'.
-It is important to understand the map's role in this metagame. Even brilliantly interesting maps are shunned if they stray too far away from the currently established metagame.

Compare to Other Maps
- Try to place a category on the map. [Big map? Medium? Small?], [Short rush distance? Long?], [2 players? 3? 4?], [10 bases? 12? 14? 16?], [Rotational symmetry? Mirror? Mixed/shifted?], [Square? Rectangle?], [Easy nat? Hard nat?]
- Try to find the map(s) in current use that is most similar in category to the new map. What details of the new map set it apart? What is genuinely new/unique? Is the newer map worth it?
- We should keep using accepted maps until we're sure they suck or they run out of steam, but keep in mind that innovation keeps the game alive.

Map Pools
- Brush up on map pool philosophy here: [G] Map Pool Creation Guide
- Some maps are already established, great, and new enough and don't need maps of a similar category overlapping with it in a map pool. A map can be a little better than others but still not worth putting in the map pool over the others (throw it an honorable mention).

...

but I suppose it could be more obvious/clear/complete.
Grandfather of LotV's resource model. "Fewer Resources per Base"
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 34m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nathanias 674
UpATree 129
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 1324
Aegong 156
Jaeyun 115
IntoTheRainbow 10
yabsab 9
Dota 2
qojqva6456
Dendi4219
canceldota316
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
fl0m2409
Super Smash Bros
PPMD361
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu674
Other Games
Grubby1993
Beastyqt876
byalli534
jkaem445
JimRising 181
febbydoto28
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick4916
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
ESL CS:GO370
Dota 2
BeyondTheSummit286
StarCraft 2
OGamingTV SC2 149
Blizzard YouTube
[ Show 23 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• SteadfastSC360
• SC2Artist 13
• Adnapsc2 10
• CSOeSports
• Laughngamez YouTube
• LaughNgamez Trovo
• IndyKCrew
• Kozan
• Poblha
• Gussbus
• intothetv
• Migwel
• aXEnki
• Alpha X_
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 36
• sscaitournament4
• Michael_bg 1
• STPLYoutube
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Froggen1548
Other Games
• imaqtpie2201
• Shiphtur1400
Upcoming Events
ESL Pro Tour
1h 34m
KCM Race Survival
12h 34m
DPC 2021/2022 Tour 3
21h 34m
Evil Geniuses vs TBD
OSC
22h 34m
TeamLiquid StarLeague
1d 13h
TeamLiquid StarLeague
2 days
TeamLiquid StarLeague
3 days
TeamLiquid StarLeague
4 days
TeamLiquid StarLeague
4 days
TeamLiquid StarLeague
5 days
[ Show More ]
ESL Pro Tour
5 days
TeamLiquid StarLeague
5 days
TeamLiquid StarLeague
5 days
TeamLiquid StarLeague
6 days
ESL Pro Tour
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Ultimate Battle: Soulkey vs Rush
DH Masters Valencia
X-Cup Summer 2022 - Qual. 5
ESL Challenger Valencia 2022

Ongoing

BSL Season 15: GosuLeague
Luck Over Strength
STL37
RCG 2021
KCM Ladies Race Survival 2022 Season 2
Nine-Tathlon Invitational
HoneyCai Friendlies Season 4
GAN Race Survival Season 4
CWCL Season 4
FS Mania
Big Baby Popularity Contest
KCM Race Survival 2022 Season 2
BSL Season 15
Deathfate Pro Team League
TOP Challenge Qualifier
WTL 2022 Summer
2022 GSL S2: Code S
StarCraft II: NationWars 7
Community Clash League S4
X-Cup Summer 2022 - Quals.
Masters Clash Champ. 2022

Upcoming

Deathfate Pro Team League 2: Qualifier
Future Cup 4 (U18)
NiuPi Cup CN vs KR 1: Mihu vs Mighty
TOP Challenge
2022 ACS Season 2
NiuPi Cup 7: Soma vs sOrry
WSL Season 3
IEM Katowice 2023
2022 GSL: ST 2
DH Masters Atlanta
2022 GSL S3: Code S
TSL 9
HomeStory Cup XXI
X-Cup Summer 2022
X-Cup Summer 2022 - Qual. 10
X-Cup Summer 2022 - Qual. 9
X-Cup Summer 2022 - Qual. 8
X-Cup Summer 2022 - Qual. 7
X-Cup Summer 2022 - Qual. 6
IEM Rio Major 2022
ESL Challenger Melbourne 2022
ESL Pro League Season 16
BLAST Premier Fall Groups
ESL Challenger League S42 NA
ESL Challenger League S42 EU
ESL Challenger League S42 AP
IEM Cologne 2022
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2022 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.