Hi guys, finally finished my latest project. was quite some work to get everything done. specially the texture gave me some headache at the beginning.
Description: The Map is split into 2 1v1 Maps. u only can spawn topleft/bottomright or topright/bottomleft. i used a new technique to block ramps. it was used before in BW but never in sc2. i blocked 2 ramps with minerals and each of them have something around 20 minerals value. it enables a new map design. in this case u can, for example forge fe at the top left base and be safe from rushes while having a backdoor to your third. because nobody will bring 3-5 workers to mine the way open.
Looks so, so good!, I only worry about naturals @ 11, 5 being easily siegeable from behind the mineral block.
Also, I'd add a ramp to the high ground @ 1, 7 above the choke and make it pathable (like Bel'Shir Beach) to help with defending in PVP. But even if it stayed like this it wouldn't make the map any less awesome.
On September 04 2011 02:50 Fearlezz wrote: Looks so, so good!, I only worry about naturals @ 11, 5 being easily siegeable from behind the mineral block.
Also, I'd add a ramp to the high ground @ 1, 7 above the choke and make it pathable (like Bel'Shir Beach) to help with defending in PVP. But even if it stayed like this it wouldn't make the map any less awesome.
hm the siegetank problem is actually true^^ i think i did that because Sanctuarium has the same setup and it works there. + Show Spoiler +
if its a major problem then i have to rework the whole side...i dont wanna do that :D
The only difference between defending against siege tanks on these two maps is that you either have to mine all mineral block patches very, very early or go way, way around to even be able to engage the tanks. I don't really want for you to having to rework the whole side, but I do see it as a concern in my eyes.
Who knows, maybe it ends up not being a big deal after all, fingers crossed for that ^^
On September 04 2011 03:17 dezi wrote: I would change the mineral values on the ones blocking the passages to a amount where a single MULE isn't enough to deplete them
this is true, it would be really easy to do a marine/marauder stim attack, and then just drop a single mule to give you a back way in
Just played on it, cross spawn didn't work ;( Aesthetics are amazing and the middle platform is really cool !
I think the sieging of the nat is more like on Shakuras, but better since as defender you can easily mine those mineral patches. It's fine I'd say. (btw, interesting that we both chose to give our mineral blockers 15 minerals, guess it's officially the perfect number then ).
As I said in the MotM thread, if you don't know how you make the minerals that block not mineable by MULEs and MULEs become a problem, I know a solution.
Problem I see is that you can easily cover a lot of bases.
1 vs 7 Wide chocke no ramp to main. PvP thrown out of the window right there. TvT early aggression will be strong as hell, and that will lead to very luck based games. Now natural is easy to defend. That will mean pretty much force terran and protoss to FE, which zerg countters by trying to take fast third. On those positions that will be no problem. Zerg over powered. TvP would be the most resonable match up here I think, but still I think it will be terran favored because of the general openness of the map and because taking 3rd/4th/5th/6th is kinda easy.
4 vs 10 Zerg is a bit underpowered. Main base extend to very easy ramp defense + natural choke defense. 3rd is hard to take before you have opened a pathway but easy after that. Also terran/protoss only needs to hold 3 chokes that are near to each other to secure 6 bases out of 14. Overall, pretty nice macro favored play.
Suggestions: You cannot leave the 1vs7 main chocke how it is. I am pretty sure. Also I would like if you did this (or something equivalent): It would make the redic easy 3rd in 1vs7 spawns a bit harder, make use of the one useless base you have on your map atm with 4vs10 and the base you can secure after mining the wall out harder.
Nice map! I have to say I like the suggestion that Sea_Food gives of adjusting the 3rds so that there is only one. Right now the map seems very saturated (expos are very very close), and it wouldn't hurt to remove one. There are a couple other suggestions I have:
Firstly, I would adjust the top left and bottom right naturals so they can be walled at a single choke, highlighted in red. This way you can remove the mineral walls, which are really annoying when you try to take a third, and can be abused by tanks very easily. They're also not necessary in this situation imo.
Next I would make the bottom left and top right natural's on highground. To me, either the main or natural needs a highground advantage. This way static defense is more viable for defending, and PvP isn't a nightmare.
Lastly I would remove the thirds and put one expo between them. Right now it's pretty turtley because of the short distance to that expansion and is a bit too easy to hold. My picture is not exactly perfect, but you could probably do something similar.
#1 is a good option for an aggressive 3rd, likely for Terran or Protoss in the top left/bottom right. #2 is a good option for a defensive 3rd, likely for Zerg in any positions.
the thing is that u misinterprate the expand patterns. if u start at 10 i take my natural and then the base below it as third, not the one the analyzer shows as third.
i know the choke ala taldarim altar is not that popular, but we still play taldarim right? it is a problem in pvp no doubt, but i dont change it for one matchup.....i knew that as i designed the map. if the other matchups evolve how u say it then i have to ofc.
Wow, so pretty, I love the design and the bringing back of the blocking minerals. I don't really have design suggestions since I haven't played on it yet, but I love the aesthetic. I really miss snow maps. I want to see one in the ladder pool so bad...
On September 04 2011 05:11 Mereel wrote: the thing is that u misinterprate the expand patterns. if u start at 10 i take my natural and then the base below it as third, not the one the analyzer shows as third.
i know the choke ala taldarim altar is not that popular, but we still play taldarim right? it is a problem in pvp no doubt, but i dont change it for one matchup.....i knew that as i designed the map. if the other matchups evolve how u say it then i have to ofc.
I do not misinteprate it. I know it is like you say, but the thing is, it would be better if it werent so.
Also we would not play tal darim if the main chocke there was as wide as it is in your map.
On September 04 2011 05:11 Mereel wrote: the thing is that u misinterprate the expand patterns. if u start at 10 i take my natural and then the base below it as third, not the one the analyzer shows as third.
i know the choke ala taldarim altar is not that popular, but we still play taldarim right? it is a problem in pvp no doubt, but i dont change it for one matchup.....i knew that as i designed the map. if the other matchups evolve how u say it then i have to ofc.
I didn't misinterpret the expo pattern, I think that third base is definitely a bit too close. Right now the reinforce distance is really short, it's pretty choked, and there's an extremely easy fourth, fifth, and sixth base connected to it. It'll probably result in a lot of turtling imo, and adjusting the third so that there's only 5 bases per side (and one aggressive expo) would reduce the turtling and improve gameplay I think.
TalDarim has a mostly-highground natural. There is another entrance, but you can abuse the highground very easily since the long path is considerably longer to use in a normal situation. On this map, the third's ramp is a bit too far away and wide open to be able to use. PvP will be a slightly wonky (bit worse than taldarim), and also TvZ and TvP because you can't use the highground for bunkers, tanks, forcefields, cannons, banelings, or spine crawlers which are used in most FEs. It'll also make defending hellions TvZ very hard since you can't block any ramps with queens or roaches. I think making the natural highground would be an easy change to improve these potential flaws/imbalances.
Different Ramps (the bases are the same but the ramps are bigger):
i like the last one the most. filling up the open space if i would use one base looks just 'madeup' to solve something. or someone shows me a good design.
On September 04 2011 03:17 dezi wrote: I would change the mineral values on the ones blocking the passages to a amount where a single MULE isn't enough to deplete them
I tried to find the comments in the motm thread as well so I'm sorry if this was already mentioned, but you can just stack up mineral patches on top of each other to prevent MULE mining from opening the wall so easily. This is even closer to the BW version too. ;D
On September 04 2011 03:17 dezi wrote: I would change the mineral values on the ones blocking the passages to a amount where a single MULE isn't enough to deplete them
I tried to find the comments in the motm thread as well so I'm sorry if this was already mentioned, but you can just stack up mineral patches on top of each other to prevent MULE mining from opening the wall so easily. This is even closer to the BW version too. ;D
Wow, I needed hours to figure out how to prevent MULEs from mining certain mineral patches that I used to block and now I see this solution which is so much easier...
On October 05 2011 04:12 0neder wrote: This map is beautiful. Props. I'm in America and a professional industrial designer. Do you have any english speakers I could chat with sometime?
Damn i haddent seen the two 1v1 style maps in one done yet (maby it has im still new just haven't seen it yet) and was about to release my map that had the same feature =(, lol looks amazing tho cant comment on how it plays yet but will get back to you on it
On October 05 2011 04:12 0neder wrote: This map is beautiful. Props. I'm in America and a professional industrial designer. Do you have any english speakers I could chat with sometime?
I'm the NA player on TPW.
the swedish and german guys are capable of communicating in english quite well, too
On October 05 2011 04:12 0neder wrote: This map is beautiful. Props. I'm in America and a professional industrial designer. Do you have any english speakers I could chat with sometime?
I'm the NA player on TPW.
the swedish and german guys are capable of communicating in english quite well, too
but he asked for a english speaker (i.e. native speaker) that's me
removed 2 bases, each from one side just as the majority said. third is now a little farther away for both spawn positions. also there are only 4 mineralblocks on each ramp with 25minerals each.
also the metall bases are reshaped a little. i added a doodad at the main/nat choke so u can block the entrance with 2 3x3 buildings. i also painted a little bit of snow all over the map so the metall bases now look frozen. its hard to see but the overall look is better now.
I approve! Usually I'd be leery about the distance to the 3rd but the cross distances makes it okay. The interwoven-ness of the two axes is much more direct now, which I really like.
The snow glaze on the metal bases is a nice touch.
Played through some games on this map with a few friends. General thoughts:
Fourth base is always very very far to the side, rather than along an attack path, for better or for worse.
In the 1:30/7:30 spawn setup, it seems like PvP could be fear-inspiring, with the lack of ramp into the natural-- you'll have Tal'Darim-like qualities here, with most PvP being 4gate vs 4gate. Not so much a problem as a "this is how it is with unramped mains"
There's a lot of airspace which is sweet for dropping :D
If you spawn in 4:30/10:30, the third seems generally hard to take, whether you're going for the watchtower third or the "through the minerals" third.
TvP Trinity (Diamond) vs Uniden (Diamond) http://drop.sc/45158 Nothing too strategically interesting here.
TvP Blazinghand (Master) vs Uniden (Diamond) http://drop.sc/45159 Is the airspace too abusable? Are fourth bases too hard to take?
Player Comments: Uniden: I liked this map. No balance comments Trinity: I wouldn't mind if this was a ladder map. Thirds look hard to take if we spawn the other way.
About that snow glaze, i have my brightness turned up a bit, and it was pretty jarring to see everything be so white at the start of the game. You should consider readjusting the brightness of that snow if you can.
Great map, very easy to abuse against insane AI since they don't know how to open mineral patch backdoors XD
In all seriousness, looks great, just played a match and the aesthetics are awesome. That said, I feel there is not enough openness of the natural, making it too easy for Protoss and Terran to early expand without risking punishment.
On December 10 2011 08:11 TehTemplar wrote: top right/bottom left mains are too big
How are they too big? 27 CCs is small, and the Top Left/Bottom Right are much larger.
If you are referring to the TL/BR set, then I'd say its not so bad in this situation because the tips provide some very useful vision anyway.
Either way, love this map to bits, glad you're still working on it.
EDIT: Actually yeah, as much as I love snow glaze, considering people play on high gamma to help see cloaked units, it's probably more trouble than it's worth.
Perhaps just ash-mixed snow, you know, edit the texture by dimming the white down to grey a bit and adding some more ashy spots of dark, and then put some smoke stacks on the machinery of the map to account for the ash? Or make it look more like the result of a battle?
I know at least PvP will be happy for the updates. I like where it's going as well. I think the aesthetics are fantastic, and I don't want you to change them much unless some great inspiration smacks you -- except the whiteness of the snow.
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