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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 08 2008 07:13 Nick_54 wrote: That must be why Lux decided his best chance of winning was 5 pooling and praying Bisu scouted wrong. in case you didnt notice, luxury had an entire game plan that started with a 5pool to prevent bisu from taking his nat whether bisu scouted it or not wouldnt make a difference, because either way he doesnt cannon his nat | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On February 08 2008 05:56 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: Err, I'd put Luxury over Bisu in a heartbeat judging by their current forms. Might I remind you that the liquibet favored Bisu at least 4:1. I would put money on Bisu in a Bo3 against any Zerg not named Jaedong. On February 08 2008 07:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: in case you didnt notice, luxury had an entire game plan that started with a 5pool to prevent bisu from taking his nat whether bisu scouted it or not wouldnt make a difference, because either way he doesnt cannon his nat 5 pool is easily stoppable though as long as it's scouted by pulling a few probes while the cannon warps in. Even Stork managed to do so, and his PvZ is utter shit. | ||
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koryano321
United States309 Posts
On February 08 2008 07:48 Macavenger wrote: I'd put Stork as a very small favorite over him, a coin flip against Jaedong or Much, and a favorite over everyone else on the list, personally. His brutal domination of the tiebreakers should go a long way to restoring his confidence, which looks to me to have been the main thing lacking lately. small favorite? when bisu was more on form last season, he was demolished by stork. jaedong has shown that he CAN take on bisu in a mid/long game without the early cheese. much is a great player, and in current state, much is put above bisu, but u are right, most of the time it is a cointoss. when you talk about the brutal domination of his tiebreakers, aer you really serious? july and xellos are NOWHERE NEAR the level of players in the PR currently. bisu should have come out on top of his group easily. 2 zergs and 1 terran, 2 of them way past their peak? you cannot use this tiebreaker as evidence bisu just needs confidence. one other thing on the side, why does ppl hate on 5pool lux did against bisu so much? it was ingenious. he wasnt doing an all in, it was just starting off with this into a regular mid game. when bisu NEVER STRAYS FROM A FE BUILD EVERY DAMN GAME AGAINST Zerg, isnt it smarter to punish him for it rather than just playing along and letting him tech up to corsairs without any real harassment? i think this is rather the logical move zergs would make when facing bisu. the last time i saw him not try to fe right from the start was against july, their first game against each other televised. cant think of any other games off the top of my head, someone enlighten me. | ||
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ThePhan2m
Norway2751 Posts
On February 08 2008 07:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: in case you didnt notice, luxury had an entire game plan that started with a 5pool to prevent bisu from taking his nat whether bisu scouted it or not wouldnt make a difference, because either way he doesnt cannon his nat actually you are mistaken. he didnt have the entire game planned. what you dont see on the vod, is seems that luxury actually changes his mind when he aborts double drone at start, then goes for 5 pool. You can see it on the replay ogn plays after. You miss it cuz they show bisus and luxurys faces etc at start. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 08 2008 09:48 ThePhan2m wrote: actually you are mistaken. he didnt have the entire game planned. what you dont see on the vod, is seems that luxury actually changes his mind when he aborts double drone at start, then goes for 5 pool. You can see it on the replay ogn plays after. You miss it cuz they show bisus and luxurys faces etc at start. thats more likely just a fuckup, that entire build looked prepared from start to finish | ||
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Macavenger
United States1132 Posts
On February 08 2008 09:25 koryano321 wrote: small favorite? when bisu was more on form last season, he was demolished by stork. jaedong has shown that he CAN take on bisu in a mid/long game without the early cheese. much is a great player, and in current state, much is put above bisu, but u are right, most of the time it is a cointoss. I disagree with the entire assumption that Bisu is somehow massively out of form currently. No one started talking about a slump from Bisu until he lost to Stork. Since then he has lost a total of 6 games, 2 to Upmagic in a series he won, and 4 against Zergs in Starleagues. The thing is none of those losses have looked like there was any long term problem with Bisu's play. Have you actually watched the games? As you say, Jaedong has proven that he can match up with Bisu in a long game, yes. Given that Jaedong is 21-2 in the last 2 months I hardly consider that surprising. I'd say Bisu vs. Jaedong was probably the hardest Jaedong has been pushed in any of his recent wins, and he by no means dominated the game - so while Jaedong CAN match Bisu in a long game, I've seen nothing to suggest he always will. Let's not forget also that that was on the zerg happy-land called Blue Storm. The other losses were either cheese (Luxury) or semi-cheese allins (July, Yarnc). Good players lose to cheese sometimes, it's not unheard of. The last game against July even shows Bisu is adjusting his style to work better against the semi-cheese. Bisu also won all 3 of his Proleague games during this stretch - not that any of them were difficult games, but with Bisu's usual proleague performance its notable. He's been playing Terrans on Katrina a fair amount, yes - but he's been utterly wiping the floor with them at least as efficiently as any other toss would, not struggling to do it like you would imagine a slumping player would. As for Stork being only a small favorite, there are a number of factors there. Bisu was sick last time they played, and last time Stork was still seething for revenge from the Gom S2 finals. That's like a hunter going after a wounded animal. If they meet again, Bisu presumably won't be sick, and will be out for revenge. Both factors change things a lot. Much I put as a coinflip because he's on such a tear right now. Two months ago I would have given him low chances against Bisu. I guess the point of all this is, if you look at Bisu's recent games that have lasted long enough to let him show off his sick multitask and such, his form has looked about as good as ever. The game against Jaedong was an epic clash of the titans where Jaedong came out slightly ahead. His Terran games have largely been on Katrina and fairly short but none of them have been remotely close. And the most recent July game, while he was a bit behind early, he was never in danger - he just played safe to get to a late game he knew he would win, and showed off his midgame harass very well that game. If Bisu gets into the mid-late game, which he's clearly working on doing more often now, he's still a heavy favorite. One could even point to the fact that he's been seeing a ton of cheese/allin builds lately as evidence that his opponents know he's going to beat them in any longer game and are trying to avoid any contest where he can put his best skills to use. | ||
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koryano321
United States309 Posts
On February 08 2008 10:32 Macavenger wrote: I disagree with the entire assumption that Bisu is somehow massively out of form currently. No one started talking about a slump from Bisu until he lost to Stork. Since then he has lost a total of 6 games, 2 to Upmagic in a series he won, and 4 against Zergs in Starleagues. The thing is none of those losses have looked like there was any long term problem with Bisu's play. Have you actually watched the games? As you say, Jaedong has proven that he can match up with Bisu in a long game, yes. Given that Jaedong is 21-2 in the last 2 months I hardly consider that surprising. I'd say Bisu vs. Jaedong was probably the hardest Jaedong has been pushed in any of his recent wins, and he by no means dominated the game - so while Jaedong CAN match Bisu in a long game, I've seen nothing to suggest he always will. Let's not forget also that that was on the zerg happy-land called Blue Storm. The other losses were either cheese (Luxury) or semi-cheese allins (July, Yarnc). Good players lose to cheese sometimes, it's not unheard of. The last game against July even shows Bisu is adjusting his style to work better against the semi-cheese. Bisu also won all 3 of his Proleague games during this stretch - not that any of them were difficult games, but with Bisu's usual proleague performance its notable. He's been playing Terrans on Katrina a fair amount, yes - but he's been utterly wiping the floor with them at least as efficiently as any other toss would, not struggling to do it like you would imagine a slumping player would. As for Stork being only a small favorite, there are a number of factors there. Bisu was sick last time they played, and last time Stork was still seething for revenge from the Gom S2 finals. That's like a hunter going after a wounded animal. If they meet again, Bisu presumably won't be sick, and will be out for revenge. Both factors change things a lot. Much I put as a coinflip because he's on such a tear right now. Two months ago I would have given him low chances against Bisu. I guess the point of all this is, if you look at Bisu's recent games that have lasted long enough to let him show off his sick multitask and such, his form has looked about as good as ever. The game against Jaedong was an epic clash of the titans where Jaedong came out slightly ahead. His Terran games have largely been on Katrina and fairly short but none of them have been remotely close. And the most recent July game, while he was a bit behind early, he was never in danger - he just played safe to get to a late game he knew he would win, and showed off his midgame harass very well that game. If Bisu gets into the mid-late game, which he's clearly working on doing more often now, he's still a heavy favorite. One could even point to the fact that he's been seeing a ton of cheese/allin builds lately as evidence that his opponents know he's going to beat them in any longer game and are trying to avoid any contest where he can put his best skills to use. but can we REALLY use july as a measure of bisu's skill? i mean he aint nowehere near form. also you mention the fact that bisu has fallen to all ins/cheese build. i dont think lux's game was cheese, he had a gameplan set up where he would deny bisu his expansion and play midgame from there. july was using the knowledge bisu ALWAYS DOES FE AGAINST ZERG to his advantage, strong hydra push before dts come into play. if players know his strategy and beat him with the knowledge, it aint so much as cheese as you keep saying-_-;; bisu p v t has yet to be played as of late besides on katrina, and mostly against 2nd tier or slumping players so we dont know how that will stand up to ppl of caliber. last time he faced a decent terran, he got trashed 3:1. yes i have watched his games. his game vs jaedong was close, but besides that? micro errors at such a crucial stage? if sea did somethin like that the whole community would be yelling "CHOKE", his game vs july? he got screwed by not scouting well enough. july denied his scouting probes, and went for a hydra push before his expansion would come into factor. his game vs lux? he had an awesome gameplan for dealing with bisu, there was nothing cheese about it. more strategical. i just dont understand how a bunker rush into standard game isnt cheese but lux's 5 pool to standard play is. | ||
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Byo
Canada212 Posts
I hate the fact he does FE too much. Yes like everyone says/knows macro/multitask is one of his strong sense so i guess FE plays into that. But at the same time I consider defending and "unleashing" cheese is part of the game just as much as long drawn out games are. Part of SC is keeping people guessing, but thats theory crap that no one wants to hear from me. Thus I think he should work more on this, though he did show some cheese/change up last season or soemthing, reference something or correct me if you want. Vague memory is fine at this point in time. And on to the next point is given bisu's tendency to over extend in terms of FE'ing I think an aggressive zerg type like July somewhat does count for something. Lets not kid ourselves he is no jaedong but a good zerg none the less and doesn't losing to a "bad" zerg mean more than losing to a zerg like jaedong? So just as much pressure, especially when it counts on advancing to next round or qualifying to leagues. So lets not discredit his win against july either. But I guess the way/fashion in which BIsu lost to July has to count for something. Like raping at this worst man. Even when it was a planned out All in from july that was banking on BIsu playing the way he has played the last 10 pvz or something -_-; (again the mixing up the build order thing above, so you don't get caught with your pants down as much) And map imbalances are NO factor in losing or winning games in my books. Just as Bisu is happy to take the auto win he gets on katrina, he should just as much be willing to take the handicap on blue storm. Its more on part of the league to make sure there is a mix and for the players to adapt. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On February 08 2008 07:54 teamsolid wrote: Might I remind you that the liquibet favored Bisu at least 4:1. I would put money on Bisu in a Bo3 against any Zerg not named Jaedong. Might I remind you that 99% of teamliquid suffers from Protoss man-love? Stork's PvZ isn't utter shit either, so you can get off that bandwagon too. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37096 Posts
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koryano321
United States309 Posts
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HaXxorIzed
Australia8434 Posts
Saying any Protoss is in any way a favourite over Stork is next to insanity, unless Stork begins a massive slump, or someone like Bisu is on a PvP tear and it is the grand finals. I guess you could argue Stork makes uncharacteristic errors there, ie his self-skullfucking in game2 vs Jaedong, Game5 versus Bisu, but I would still put Stork as the favourite. The key thing to note now is how Bisu manages to keep on going. While July isn't exactly a Jaedong/Former Savior test of Bisu's skills, what is important to acknowledge is that Bisu was confident enough in his own skills to put himself behind in that game and prepare for any sort of all in, knowing he could even the score with his multitasking. That if anything, indicates there's still enough confidence to play well there. As (iirc) Hot Bid said, Bisu needed to play perfect after the cannons and core before Nexus -> and he did. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On February 08 2008 12:03 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: Might I remind you that 99% of teamliquid suffers from Protoss man-love? Stork's PvZ isn't utter shit either, so you can get off that bandwagon too. What are you talking about? A ton of Z's hate Bisu (unsurprisingly), enough to auto-vote against him every match. Plus, virtually all of TL.net (including me) loves the Maestro and Jaedong who are Z's. Okay, I exaggerated about Stork, but his PvZ is still pretty subpar when compared to other top P's like Much, Free or even Kal. Poor enough to actually handicap and prevent him from qualifying MSL two seasons in a row. Also, if he comes up against ANY Zerg in the Ro16 or above in either league, he's in trouble. It's not a bandwagon, when it's actually true. | ||
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cujo2k
Canada1044 Posts
If not Sea, then I'd put Best in at #10.. I just don't think Light is a top 10 player, never have  Plus, I don't think that I take OSL/MSL results as serious as others might(some seem to think It's all that matters).. If a guy is dominant all year long in proleague and loses a few bo3's or whatever, I just don't think that it should tarnish their records as much as others seem to believe.Anyway I think you're doing a great job forsure, certainly better than most of us could do. You even put Much at #5 last month when most people(including myself) doubted it, and the guy has really taken off to your credit.. keep up the good work bro  | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 08 2008 14:14 cujo2k wrote: Well I think this power ranking is better than your last one after you excluded Anytime from last month's ranking despite having the disgustingly awesome proleague record in 2007. I'll probably get flamed for this, but I still feel that Sea is a better overall player than Light despite his 1-2 loss to him and also his OSL struggles.. Sea pretty much carries that MBC team and his proleague record spoke for itself. I think that his matchup with Light could've gone either way and sometimes a single bo3 doesn't do justice. If not Sea, then I'd put Best in at #10.. I just don't think Light is a top 10 player, never have Plus, I don't think that I take OSL/MSL results as serious as others might(some seem to think It's all that matters).. If a guy is dominant all year long in proleague and loses a few bo3's or whatever, I just don't think that it should tarnish their records as much as others seem to believe.Anyway I think you're doing a great job forsure, certainly better than most of us could do. You even put Much at #5 last month when most people(including myself) doubted it, and the guy has really taken off to your credit.. keep up the good work bro Power Rank is supposed to be current to the month, round 2 proleague records have nothing to do with this month's rank | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
He is obviously the Best. | ||
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cujo2k
Canada1044 Posts
Power Rank is supposed to be current to the month, round 2 proleague records have nothing to do with this month's rank [/QUOTE] I see. I thought that the power rank was the top 10 overall current players list, not the top 10 players in the past month..if that makes any sense But I guess the TLPD is more of a power rank of best overall players rather than a month to month basis of recent performances.In that case though, I can see why you would leave Sea off the list but he should probably take Anytime with him then imo. I'd put like Nada or another MSL RO8 guy like UpMagic up there. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 08 2008 14:50 cujo2k wrote: Power Rank is supposed to be current to the month, round 2 proleague records have nothing to do with this month's rank [/QUOTE] I see. I thought that the power rank was the top 10 overall current players list, not the top 10 players in the past month..if that makes any sense But I guess the TLPD is more of a power rank of best overall players rather than a month to month basis of recent performances.In that case though, I can see why you would leave Sea off the list but he should probably take Anytime with him then imo. I'd put like Nada or another MSL RO8 guy like UpMagic up there. [/QUOTE] Overall current players, yes. Anytime lost against Nada but every other game he's played recently has been pretty strong. Nada, on the other hand, has looked fairly weak. Upmagic was in consideration, but Anytime has just been a little better. | ||
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DiceToss
Croatia62 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On February 08 2008 09:48 ThePhan2m wrote: actually you are mistaken. he didnt have the entire game planned. what you dont see on the vod, is seems that luxury actually changes his mind when he aborts double drone at start, then goes for 5 pool. You can see it on the replay ogn plays after. You miss it cuz they show bisus and luxurys faces etc at start. Luxury mentioned in his interview that his 5 pool opening wasn't designed to finish Bisu off early on. He must have had a another build he changed his mind about early on in the game, but it's quite clear that the 5 pool opening had been thoroughly practiced. Bisu was screwed the moment Luxury contained him. Luxury said he won games in practice with this opening even if it did NO damage whatsoever so as long as he contained the protoss in his base by destroying the assimilator. | ||
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