Do you like TL's new look?
Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet |
Fionn
United States23455 Posts
| ||
Nitrogen
United States5345 Posts
i also like how the new search bar is positioned and the dropdown menus for all the sections at the top. nice work! | ||
MannerMan
371 Posts
| ||
Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
| ||
TeabagInsurance
Canada320 Posts
| ||
konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
| ||
sva
United States747 Posts
5 stars. | ||
EquilasH
Denmark2116 Posts
Voted for bringing back the old one | ||
Skvid
Lithuania751 Posts
| ||
zul
Germany5427 Posts
| ||
Tropics
United Kingdom1132 Posts
| ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On August 22 2010 18:12 EquilasH wrote: It looks good, but nothing beats the horsies. Voted for bringing back the old one Have you looked closely at the banner? | ||
defuzas
248 Posts
| ||
Avitohol
Bulgaria125 Posts
| ||
Altar
United States577 Posts
| ||
dOofuS
United States342 Posts
| ||
noname_
454 Posts
| ||
pilsken
Germany441 Posts
| ||
Klapdout
United States282 Posts
Oh and horses | ||
Jameser
Sweden951 Posts
I like it | ||
Craton
United States17153 Posts
| ||
daewdasd
Germany64 Posts
One minor thing: i would put a . in front of news to. So i reads: StarCraft Progamning - News, Community, Team; instead of StarCraft Programming News - Community, Team. Maybe even make it: StarCraft Programming and then in the line below News, Community, Team. But that is all minor, the new design is awesome. | ||
Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
The new look is totally awesome. | ||
StomperWomper
5 Posts
| ||
WinHouse
Australia58 Posts
| ||
uNiGNoRe
Germany1115 Posts
| ||
Abstrkt
Australia65 Posts
| ||
Drium
United States888 Posts
| ||
RoyalCheese
Czech Republic745 Posts
| ||
[Silverflame]
Germany640 Posts
| ||
axion
Norway110 Posts
The new search box is also sweet (win7), though it should be lit up with signal colors for the sake of the forums GW! | ||
Therick
Norway324 Posts
| ||
MaReK
Australia446 Posts
The sidebar font is a bit hard to read. It was much clearer before. /endgraphicdesignerrant In my opinion, make a banner design contest. | ||
faseman
Australia215 Posts
| ||
EquilasH
Denmark2116 Posts
Yeah I know, but that's just one horsie.. One just doesn't cut it EDIT: Ohh nevermind.. That shit's awesome! | ||
futoM4ki
Germany73 Posts
It just feels like when Porsche tried to move away from there traditional look with the 944 in the early 80s. Epic fail T_T ....well at least it has nothing to do with SC2 | ||
Nao
Poland166 Posts
The horses are there but they no longer welcome you and take you on a daily journey through the internets. Current look definetly suits the TL as a team and SC2 site more but there is something about the old one that drawn me to this site day after day, but now it just looks simmilar to any other web page about gaming. I think It would be awesome if we could choose between skins (even if the old one would be incomplete due to site upgreads) | ||
bobhund
Sweden364 Posts
| ||
WarChimp
Australia943 Posts
| ||
Frozed
Spain5 Posts
| ||
Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
| ||
Aikin
Austria532 Posts
| ||
SC2Phoenix
Canada2814 Posts
| ||
Gemis
Poland2 Posts
But i feel that if the dropdown menus would be vertical and not horizontal it would be better. | ||
Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
It looks really awesome and still keeps it real | ||
Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
As long as the horses are still there | ||
Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
| ||
adamisuber
Canada35 Posts
| ||
Shauni
4077 Posts
| ||
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
| ||
ChaseR
Norway1004 Posts
| ||
jp_zer0
Canada48 Posts
| ||
Aetherial
Australia917 Posts
| ||
ggrrg
Bulgaria2707 Posts
the changes were not too big, but it still looks more appealing now! good job! | ||
Hyde
Australia14568 Posts
New dark blue T-shirts with the new logo on their way? One thing though, maybe the forums section bars (gen, sc2, bw, etc) should match the colour of the banner? + Show Spoiler + Also a little sad there is no sidebar customisation I want BW on top of SC2 | ||
ggrrg
Bulgaria2707 Posts
awesome! | ||
ZooG
Sweden618 Posts
| ||
Shouryu
Norway132 Posts
| ||
Tharros
Australia94 Posts
| ||
Mikilatov
United States3897 Posts
| ||
Manadar
France4 Posts
| ||
Coulthard
Greece3359 Posts
On August 22 2010 18:12 EquilasH wrote: It looks good, but nothing beats the horsies. Voted for bringing back the old one Yep I am with this guy,it looks great but the old one defines tl.net | ||
samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On August 22 2010 19:39 Coulthard wrote: Yep I am with this guy,it looks great but the old one defines tl.net The horses are still in the banner. Look closely at the middle of the banner. | ||
Hyde
Australia14568 Posts
On August 22 2010 19:43 samachking wrote: The horses are still in the banner. Look closely at the middle of the banner. How are some people missing the horses? They're not that faded. | ||
TTL
65 Posts
For example,change white background with something better. | ||
KinosJourney2
Sweden1811 Posts
| ||
Kaervek56
Australia273 Posts
| ||
SmoKim
Denmark10277 Posts
| ||
SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
| ||
Pistolfied
Canada79 Posts
Very nice banner though, even without the awesome lens flare :'( | ||
SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
| ||
cmos543
220 Posts
| ||
Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
like how u managed to keep the horses in a subtle way that makes the site look fresh and modern | ||
Djinii
Czech Republic61 Posts
| ||
Kong John
Denmark1020 Posts
| ||
XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
Edit: It LOOKS good though, so I guess I'll just have to get used to it. Edit edit: On third thought, it's actually working out really really well! | ||
jackofclubs81
United States196 Posts
I think its about even with the old one in starcraft ballerness | ||
reki-
Netherlands327 Posts
| ||
SiDX
New Zealand1975 Posts
On August 22 2010 19:49 TTL wrote: its looking more modern,better and cool. You can do some adjustments still. For example,change white background with something better. What is better then white? | ||
IceCube
Croatia1403 Posts
| ||
DemiSe
883 Posts
It's a new look but you have still preserved the essence of the "old" TL. Demise approve! | ||
Spazer
Canada8025 Posts
| ||
Loanshark
China3094 Posts
| ||
Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
| ||
Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
TL & BW FOREVER!!!!!!!1 | ||
pinkranger15
Philippines1597 Posts
5/5 | ||
Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
Wikipedia did it too and it's a fucking pain. | ||
Eggm
United States152 Posts
| ||
Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
| ||
imPERSONater
United States1324 Posts
| ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On August 22 2010 22:04 Senx wrote: Also, how come you didn't add a specific team page? Like to display the roster with images and some info about them. All in good time | ||
abandonallhope
Sweden563 Posts
| ||
Sekonds
United States9 Posts
| ||
Mr.Loki
Germany136 Posts
| ||
seRapH
United States9706 Posts
| ||
jgad
Canada899 Posts
4 ) I love it, miss the old one dearly, but appreciate the desire to move forward. | ||
SoL[9]
Portugal1370 Posts
| ||
Graham
Canada1259 Posts
While I had nothing against the old layout, I definitely agree to newcomers at first glance (it even deterred me from the site for years) viewed it as pretty tacky and outdated (no offense!) regardless of the significance it has to old-school members. The new one is sooo much more slick/classy plus it still has the horse aspects to it! | ||
Pertan
Sweden33 Posts
| ||
Slow Motion
United States6960 Posts
On August 22 2010 22:01 Sadistx wrote: My only complaint is why the fuck is the search button in the right corner? Wikipedia did it too and it's a fucking pain. I totally agree with this. For some weird reason my brain can't get used to the search function on the right and it feels awkward. | ||
ZnAkE
Denmark6 Posts
And my classmates might even stop asking me why I'm looking at horses all the time | ||
Lucid90
Canada340 Posts
The site isn't perfect, there definitely could be some other improvements, but this change honestly made my jaws drop in a super dramatic manner well done | ||
sAw
965 Posts
| ||
zurg
1923 Posts
but i love the old look | ||
Vuistgevecht
Netherlands77 Posts
| ||
QueueQueue
Canada1000 Posts
| ||
Kerotan
England2109 Posts
In fact put it this way, I love the new look, I'm just sad that old look has gone, it had so much heritage, but I'm glad that the new layout and banner stay reasonably faithful to the original design, and even the waterfall menus at the top function better than I expected them to. So all in all, good job guys, you had an up hill battle because we are a very tough crowd. | ||
LorD_PaLmersToN
Canada375 Posts
| ||
Lucumo
6850 Posts
| ||
NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
| ||
Necosarius
Sweden4042 Posts
| ||
omgCRAZY
Canada551 Posts
Great Job by all those involved! | ||
teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
| ||
Takkara
United States2503 Posts
| ||
Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
| ||
dcberkeley
Canada844 Posts
| ||
GhostBusters
United States198 Posts
| ||
Breavman
Sweden598 Posts
| ||
LunarDestiny
United States4177 Posts
EDIT: Well, TL now looks like a Chess website. Old banner got artistic style, new banner looks dull. | ||
ahwala
Germany376 Posts
As long as they stay there, the new look is awesome. | ||
cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
| ||
TaiYang
Canada128 Posts
| ||
ckw
United States1018 Posts
| ||
maareek
United States2042 Posts
| ||
3FFA
United States3931 Posts
| ||
Zombee
Germany69 Posts
Was just disappointed by the new banner, no unicorns Otherwise I would love it! | ||
SlyinZ
France199 Posts
| ||
Wekapedia
Hungary77 Posts
On August 22 2010 18:40 MaReK wrote: This! Plus it's the text that should be centered on the banner without the logo, and then the logo added on the left as an extra imo. It reads a bit skewed when you look at the banner and then the main center part of the site where the articles/threads appear.Looks great, but the one thing that bothers me is that the subtitle isn't centered properly under 'teamliquid'. | ||
blueblimp
Canada297 Posts
1. The rest of the site doesn't look much like the banner. Mostly different colours, for instance. Right now it looks kinda like the banner is for one site and the rest of the site is for another. 2. I'd much prefer if the menus dropped down vertically instead of horizontally. It feels less awkward to mouse around the menu that way since the menu will be thicker. | ||
BloodDrunK
Bangladesh2767 Posts
| ||
Polar_Nada
United States1548 Posts
| ||
alypse
Vietnam2762 Posts
| ||
Orpheos
United States1663 Posts
| ||
RaLakedaimon
United States1564 Posts
| ||
Ghostcom
Denmark4776 Posts
| ||
sundae987
Argentina3 Posts
| ||
TheGrimace
United States929 Posts
| ||
Darkside-
United States52 Posts
| ||
Ocular
Canada141 Posts
| ||
skronch
United States2717 Posts
| ||
NIIINO
Slovakia1320 Posts
| ||
Munk-E
United States672 Posts
I suggest darkening the colors slightly to match the new banner. | ||
JadeFist
United States1225 Posts
| ||
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
| ||
mikesaysno
United States85 Posts
| ||
newvsoldschool
428 Posts
| ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 22 2010 18:22 noname_ wrote: The old banner was just better. | ||
Snackattack
United States15 Posts
| ||
Nifarious
United States42 Posts
| ||
r.Evo
Germany14054 Posts
| ||
sib-pelle
Sweden162 Posts
| ||
seppolevne
Canada1681 Posts
| ||
Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
| ||
Craixs
Denmark170 Posts
| ||
night terrors
China1284 Posts
| ||
anTi_
United States499 Posts
Thanks to whoever came up with that and great job with the site R1ch. Wouldn't say "awesome" but it's the same for the most part with a more professional look to it. | ||
Peekay.switch
Canada285 Posts
| ||
Champi
1422 Posts
| ||
Skee
Canada702 Posts
| ||
n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
Edit: And is that the mortal combat logo? | ||
TheAngelofDeath
United States2033 Posts
| ||
Godstorm
Romania845 Posts
| ||
nasze_zrodlo
Cape Verde111 Posts
| ||
MaxField
United States2386 Posts
| ||
YunhOLee
Canada2470 Posts
| ||
BlackHat
United States264 Posts
| ||
LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
| ||
bconSaberRider
Germany47 Posts
It is a hard job to make that much content available in an usable way. Well done, well done =) | ||
Thoreezhea1
United States532 Posts
| ||
Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
| ||
mint_julep
United States254 Posts
| ||
EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
honestly its hardly different from the last layout lol | ||
Lovin
Denmark812 Posts
| ||
Cham
797 Posts
| ||
CursOr
United States6335 Posts
| ||
Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
| ||
Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
| ||
infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
| ||
Saturnize
United States2473 Posts
The opinions expressed on our forums do not reflect the views and opinions of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. ahahha this makes me laugh for some reason. | ||
rally_point
Canada458 Posts
| ||
jewce
United States68 Posts
| ||
Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
| ||
Evilruler
Brazil116 Posts
| ||
Vexin
Romania84 Posts
| ||
mmdmmd
722 Posts
The colours are a little bit too light for a gaming site. | ||
Felby
Norway81 Posts
its beautiful | ||
aseq
Netherlands3926 Posts
On a second inspection, I'd say it looks neater and sharper. At bit more comformist to standard layouts though, and a bit more businesslike. Oh, and the rounded unit icons next to user names look a bit out of place now, they're the only round thing. and they're a pixel off centre vertically and 2 horizontally. | ||
Ginchan
Belgium55 Posts
| ||
foo
Australia109 Posts
| ||
CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
| ||
1a2a3aPro
Canada227 Posts
| ||
endy
Switzerland8966 Posts
| ||
ttfade
Japan7 Posts
| ||
Never.Die
Japan189 Posts
| ||
Lancette
China120 Posts
| ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36645 Posts
| ||
endy
Switzerland8966 Posts
On August 23 2010 11:45 Seeker wrote: Not to sound ignorant at all, and I also think it may have been discussed before in the past, but I really wish to know, exactly why did the original banner consist of horses? Because it looked cool. And it still does ! Edit : how to google search TL now ? because TL default search engine is not good | ||
Qzy
Denmark1121 Posts
| ||
RainWhisper
United Arab Emirates333 Posts
well played sirs. | ||
Zorkit
Canada66 Posts
| ||
mmp
United States2130 Posts
| ||
beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
It looks really professional. I'm not sure how long will it take to fully get used to the sidebar though. | ||
SiguR
Canada2039 Posts
Though I do definitely like the banner. | ||
Slardar
Canada7592 Posts
| ||
Comeh
United States18918 Posts
"Good" | ||
Assymptotic
United States552 Posts
| ||
Dyno.
United States286 Posts
I honestly wasn't a fan of the horse banner at all; never was (sorry), but I love the way you guys have integrated it into the new one. | ||
NET
United States703 Posts
| ||
BcGladiator
United States58 Posts
| ||
Scaramanga
Australia8090 Posts
| ||
Tonkerchen
680 Posts
| ||
SteffoDeffo
Germany48 Posts
| ||
Piste
6137 Posts
Voted for the second option. | ||
meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
| ||
FreNzypAnts
Netherlands8 Posts
The titlebars of 'News', 'General forum', 'Calendar' etc. should also be darkish blue with white text in it. Same for the titlebars of the forum posts. Can't remember if these are leftovers from the previous layout, but it certainly looks like it. Change that and it's awesome . | ||
vesicular
United States1310 Posts
| ||
~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
-__- Edit: And yes, I'm aware it's in features... | ||
Shigia
United States17 Posts
I like the old one better because I thought it was more exclusive to BW and SCII | ||
AditionalPylons
Canada2 Posts
| ||
bITt.mAN
Switzerland3687 Posts
It looks great, but whenever I load up and see all the edges clean-cut and angular it just feels, different. I guess I'm just too used to how it's always been | ||
blagoonga123
United States2068 Posts
| ||
Helios.Star
United States548 Posts
| ||
kekekekekekeke
Sweden5 Posts
| ||
Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
| ||
snuze
United States14 Posts
| ||
snuze
United States14 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + | ||
Centric
United States1989 Posts
| ||
SpicyCrab
402 Posts
| ||
kingcoyote
United States546 Posts
| ||
RAH66Comanche
United States12 Posts
| ||
Peking)
United States54 Posts
| ||
Smgzy
United States187 Posts
| ||
MadNeSs
Denmark1507 Posts
| ||
Ouga
Finland645 Posts
| ||
OmgIRok
Taiwan2699 Posts
| ||
chiflutz
Romania1025 Posts
| ||
TriniMasta
United States1323 Posts
| ||
Redmo
Switzerland14 Posts
| ||
Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
On August 22 2010 18:53 Rabiator wrote: There needs to be a little more contrast for the horses in the banner, or they will hardly get noticed. Subtle hints and goodies are too rare on all online stuff. I really like that it is so subtle. Old users will know they are there, new users probably wont at first, only after they been here for a while. Just like it should be. I love it. | ||
madnessman
United States1581 Posts
On August 24 2010 06:40 snuze wrote: Here is a really quick and dirty touchup that I did in Photoshop. I changed the header style for the different categories (News, General Forum, Starcraft 2, etc). I also changed the background of the different columns to better fit with the new logo (I used the color of the word "team" in the logo). + Show Spoiler + your design isn't perfect but you're definitely on the right track. the look of the forum should be tweaked to match the new header a little more i think. | ||
Mannequin
Canada131 Posts
| ||
Ramsing
Canada233 Posts
| ||
TiBe
Mexico200 Posts
On August 24 2010 22:36 Ramsing wrote: Maybe for special occasions (Christmas please!) we can have the horsies back? <3 The horses are still there I simply love the new look, it seems cool :-) | ||
Noxie
United States2227 Posts
| ||
wishbones
Canada2600 Posts
| ||
ZBiR
Poland1092 Posts
Oh, and the color kinda reminds me of Gosugamers seriously, make it lighter. | ||
DarthLeader
Canada123 Posts
| ||
Splunge
Germany925 Posts
| ||
Fredoq
Sweden206 Posts
| ||
LiRiK[oXg]
8 Posts
| ||
SwordM13X24
United States186 Posts
| ||
DennizR
Sweden653 Posts
| ||
Jadix
United States134 Posts
| ||
ambit!ous1
United States3662 Posts
that horse is a Trojan horse? | ||
TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
| ||
KnightOfNi
United States1508 Posts
| ||
Veijyn
4 Posts
| ||
danbel1005
United States1319 Posts
TL.net Fighting^^ | ||
prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
I'm glad the colours remained and the the TL mascot is still a horse I like the way it's been spruced up to look a bit more modern but is still obviously the same site as before at first glance. Well done team. | ||
MageKirby
United States535 Posts
| ||
Cow
Canada1104 Posts
I'm fine with either one, but I'm definitely not disappointed in this one | ||
Robinsa
Japan1333 Posts
| ||
sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
| ||
bentnormal
112 Posts
| ||
DiamondTear
Finland165 Posts
| ||
HeadhunteR
Argentina1258 Posts
| ||
WORTHY
United States8 Posts
| ||
Proven
United States6 Posts
| ||
raiame
United States421 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=77421 | ||
NymN
Sweden33 Posts
| ||
StarStruck
25339 Posts
Yeah, the horsies are still there but the old one provided a bit more color. ;/ I like the new tool bar at the top though. I think it would make navigating this website easier for newcomers yet they still don't use the search feature -_- On August 25 2010 19:03 Robinsa wrote: I get a slight feeling of sea sickness everytime Im scrolling the forums in this design... I think this sums it up for me. Those were my exact same thoughts. It's just very bland and now the website is really blue. It could use more metallic and some black liner. Would provide more umph and pzazz. | ||
Ordained
United States779 Posts
| ||
TonyL2
England1953 Posts
| ||
Gnaix
United States438 Posts
| ||
Wolf
Korea (South)3289 Posts
| ||
RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
| ||
GreggSauce
United States566 Posts
small gripe aside though, its beautiful | ||
saluber
United States22 Posts
| ||
nitdkim
1264 Posts
| ||
nickX64
Indonesia3 Posts
| ||
Oxb
199 Posts
| ||
Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
I was hoping for something like removal of tables for layout, using ems for text size instead of a crazy mix of pixels and points, and not having fixed-width page layout. With regards to the way the site was and the way the site is still (aside form what I mentioned), I find it's annoyingly cluttered and has more things than I need all displayed on every page you visit on the site (via the top bar, left bar, an right bar. It's not really tree-oriented... it's just 1 trunk with like 1000 branches. Some people might be a fan of that, but I think it's less friendly like that. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
| ||
Franco
Peru7 Posts
| ||
zrules
United States88 Posts
But nice job still. | ||
ltsmash
United States31 Posts
| ||
peckham33
United States267 Posts
| ||
nodq
Germany123 Posts
| ||
FetusFondler
United States246 Posts
How about this: Set up the default banner as the current one now, and give people who have registered the ability to change the banner to whichever one they wished? I'm no programmer, so I wouldn't know how complicated it would be to actually do this, but it'd be nice to see it happen. | ||
peckham33
United States267 Posts
On August 28 2010 15:16 FetusFondler wrote: Now that it's been a while...I don't know how I feel about it anymore. How about this: Set up the default banner as the current one now, and give people who have registered the ability to change the banner to whichever one they wished? I'm no programmer, so I wouldn't know how complicated it would be to actually do this, but it'd be nice to see it happen. the hardest part whould be storeing the data. | ||
Salty
United States90 Posts
| ||
~chut~
France1317 Posts
It disappeared because, i think, some space was needed on the toolbar for SC2 but it could be added in the feature menu. Please do it, the article section is full of amazong threads, the all of fame, old interviews and other good stuff ! | ||
nyik
Hungary1 Post
Its pretty cool, but I still dont get the horses. The former banner was ridiculously bad, I m surprised that the majority of the forum finds it awesome. Those gay horses gloriously running in the magic clouds should represent a soap opera series not a community like this. This is just my opinion, but I ve dealt with a lot of grapich designing, and the former banner was really really bad in every way. | ||
Laforge
Denmark33 Posts
But the page needs a like function, so the 3 most like comments will be at the top | ||
wiesel
Germany727 Posts
On August 30 2010 00:20 nyik wrote: hell that was about time Its pretty cool, but I still dont get the horses. The former banner was ridiculously bad, I m surprised that the majority of the forum finds it awesome. Those gay horses gloriously running in the magic clouds should represent a soap opera series not a community like this. This is just my opinion, but I ve dealt with a lot of grapich designing, and the former banner was really really bad in every way. I always thought the horses have something to do with the apocalypse. The antichrist will ride the white horse, and the 4 horsemen are the sign of the apocalypse as written in the bible lol. But yea thats probably not what the horses stand for in TL | ||
TLOBrian
United States453 Posts
| ||
DMXD
United States4064 Posts
On August 31 2010 02:33 TLOBrian wrote: I wonder if Trojan condoms has a deal with Teamliquid now.... : P So I am not the only one who thought of condoms when I saw the new look O_O | ||
Antigen
South Africa2 Posts
| ||
Sewi
Germany1697 Posts
http://www.darkhorse.com/ and thought that the horse looks so much a like when it is mirrored.. Someone is reading lots of comics here? /jk but it really looks nearly the same | ||
| ||