Almost exactly one year ago to this date, Mvp limped into the GSL Code S finals. For the first time in his career he was not the prohibitive favorite to win. Plagued by nagging wrist injuries and with the players around him improving by leaps and bounds, it seemed like the reign of King Mvp was coming to an end. Instead, he proceeded to win his fourth GSL title.
A familiar story then, this WCS Europe season. Mvp had dropped down to Code B in Korea, looking the worst he had ever been in his career. Many saw his decision to enter WCS Europe as seeking refuge, unable to hold his own in the brutal Korean scene. As it turns out, he was just seeking new lands to conquer.
Mvp vs. Stephano was a dream match long in the making, and it partially lived up to its considerable hype. The two best players of the Korean and non-Korean scenes in Wings of Liberty going head to head: how would they match up? At first, the answer seemed to be "very well." Mvp deigned to play a straight up, marine-medivac-mine macro game against Stephano's muta-bane-ling in game one, and was thoroughly beaten by the French Zerg's swarming tactics. However, Mvp returned the favor in game two, playing a methodical mech style that had been his trademark since 2011, slowly squeezing Stephano to death until he gasped out a surrender.
It was even up to 1 - 1, but after that things quickly spun out of control in Mvp's favor. Stephano thought that nydus tactics could be a good idea in game three, and it seemed like he was right—until Mvp plopped down a vision giving supply depot just as Stephano looked to take advantage of an unguarded corner of Mvp's base. Nydus attack thwarted, Stephano found himself quickly run over by Mvp's counter all-in attack of hellbats and marauders.
Mvp successfully went for the throat again in game four, going up to a 3 - 1 series lead. His hellbat drop opener cleverly masked another hellbat-marauder attack until it was too late. Stephano put together a truly inspired defense to almost hold out, but an over-extension on defense allowed Mvp to reload and finish him off with a second attack (somewhere in Korea, Squirtle woke up in a cold sweat).
One game away from defeat, Stephano fearlessly decided that an aggressive attack was his way back into the series. Seeing Mvp open up with a rarely seen banshee build, Stephano put together a roach-queen combination for a massive, front door busting nydus attack. Unfortunately for Stephano, Mvp read his intent and had tanks in place to thwart the attack. On the other end of the map, his hellions backdoored Stephano's mineral line, causing severe casualties. In any other game, the failed attack and lost drones alone would have been enough for a GG, but facing elimination, Stephano played it out just a little bit longer before giving the final surrender.
Overall, it was the typical Mvp series we've come to expect from him since he fell from his all-dominating peak in 2011. He had a solid macro game base, used to mask a variety of unpredictable all-in builds and two base timings. Or maybe, it's the other way around? In any case, it's undeniable that Mvp knows how to play an incredible number of styles, and knows exactly how to combine them to maximize his chance of victory.
It will be strange seeing Mvp as Europe's "representative" at the WCS Season 1 Finals in Korea, after being the face of Korea's GSL for nearly two years. Even if he isn't playing for Korea, he's still doing his country a final service and sending his successors an important message: Keep working hard and one day, all this could be yours.
Round-of-Eight Rumble
While Mvp vs. Stephano couldn't be matched for hype, some of the best entertainment to be had was earlier on in the Ro8 bracket.
In terms of drama, it was hard to match Mill.ForGG's comeback from behind against Spain's K3.LucifroN in the Ro8, taking three straight wins after falling behind by 0 - 2 early on.
As for best moments... well, this entire section is mostly an excuse to post the following moment from the Stephano vs. ForGG semi-final. For the most part, Stephano looked to be ForGG's superior in the series, picking him apart in macro games and only dropping a map to ForGG's 11/11 bunker rush. He probably didn't need or even intend to crush ForGG with some incredible widow-mine friendly fire, but it definitely gave the tournament a much needed highlight spot.
Of course, everything is better served with a DIMAGA reaction...
While not necessarily a "highlight" in the true sense, the DIMAGA vs. Mvp series featured an incredibly long game on Newkirk Precinct, which mostly consisted of Mvp being 80 supply down but somehow surviving through the power of turtle mech. It seemed like DIMAGA should have won a few dozen times, but somehow he ended up running out of money while Mvp weathered the storm. It's our "I know how this is going to end but I can't believe it's actually happening" game of the year thus far.
A Little Consolation
On top of deciding the WCS Europe Champion, there was also that business about deciding which five players would get tickets to the combined WCS Season 1 Finals in Korea, to be held in June. The semi-finalists automatically won spots, but the Tie-8th place players were left to play out a mini-tournament to decide who would take 5th place.
In a somewhat surprising turn of events, it ended up being Liquid's TLO who won the ticket to the season finals, earning at the very worst an additional $5,000 as well as some valuable WCS points. Although TLO wasn't able to get over his Ro8 hump this season, that's some very nice consolation indeed.
Losing out was Karont3's LucifroN who found himself getting bowled over by a succession of cheese/aggressive attacks from TLO. From 6 pools to nydus attacks, TLO went at it with a no-holds-barred attitude that he lacked earlier in the tournament. Seeing that it was successful against Lucifron—the player he called the best in Europe—perhaps TLO should consider using that approach more often.
That widow mine backfire on ForGG's medivacs broke my heart, I felt so sorry for him after putting on such a good fight in that last game, only to have it coming crashing down like that.
However I am so happy to see Mvp somewhat back to his old dominating form and really happy we get to see him face off against the best of the world, hoping for a Mvp - Innovation grand final.
Since ForGG can't take first place and his TvZ not being as good as his TvT he was doomed to lose against Stephano but my god he must have hated blizzard on this action, he maybe would have won the series and beat MVP who knows :D Gratz to MVP, return of the king
Nice to see not just Mvp but Stephano revived and looking back to near their best. Both multi-time champions seem to thrive on confidence, and as they progressed through the bracket, you could see their confidence return and their level of play improve. Somehow it's a shock to see two of the best sc2 players of all time reach the finals but it was a great spectacle and storyline.
The EU fought valiantly but in the end, their defense was a bit of a disappointment. Only 4 koreans began the ro32, far from the best their country has to offer, but 2 made it to the semifinals and one took home the trophy. There's plenty of rising talent and young blood in Europe but in the end they weren't able to make a dent in the Established Order of Koreans and long-time EU stalwarts like Stephano and Dimaga. Hopefully their performances will improve as WCS continues.
Great series overall.. Not just the finals, but the semis too..
Was pissed a bit for G4 in the finals when MVP managed to pull out a victory out of sth that shouldn't have been even close, but w/e - seems like Zergs (as well as Protoss) in the future needs to pull off workers (despite having a huuuge upgrade lead) to fight sometimes too.. (especially when Terran pull out SCVs - unfortunately t.b.h.. :/)
But grim moments aside --> great games overall, looking to see how the players perform in the final event in Korea in few weeks though..
On May 27 2013 08:38 fearpLug wrote: i think its utter bs that a korean win WCS Europe.. but hey, brains and blizzard doent seem to align much lately..
On May 27 2013 08:38 fearpLug wrote: i think its utter bs that a korean win WCS Europe.. but hey, brains and blizzard doent seem to align much lately..
Why so bitter? Great games, great storylines, memorable finals between two legends, White-ra bartending, the sickest widow mine detonation of all times (even forgg kinda laughed about it on his player camera after about 5 seconds of shock and disbelief). I loved WCS Europe, good job Blizzard!
I agree, that's sad that koreans are able to participate in NA/EU WCS , that's not fair... We'll almost only see koreans at WCS World Finals... Anyway gg to MVP and Stephano
Excited for Mvp and well played by Stephano but still so silly for the representatives for non-Korean regions to be Korean. Oh well. At least I get to watch good games ^_^
I don't have a problem with MVP being korean, but he is by far the most boring person in entire top 16 to watch play. He plays to win, which is obviously really smart, but damn it's incredibly boring to watch. He makes his opponents seem like diamond players and the games keep on disappointing. Build order wins vs Sase and TLO only. I definately counted him out way to early, not even believing he would advance past ro32, im such a fool!
Either way, impressive by him to take this tournament!
On May 27 2013 09:32 mythandier wrote: Excited for Mvp and well played by Stephano but still so silly for the representatives for non-Korean regions to be Korean. Oh well. At least I get to watch good games ^_^
If there was no Koreans in WCS EU and WCS US, they'd be pretty worthless tournaments from a gameplay quality standpoint. Not to mention that whilst winning against Europeans is nice, winning against Koreans actually matters. WCS EU has actually been awesome, because we've had the top European players vs some good Koreans. Take out the Koreans and you basically make the entire tournament a lot less prestigious.
It's still no WCS KR/Code S, which is why nobody is getting excited for how awesome MVP is like they did the last time he won Code S, but the Korean element means this tournament is as important as your Dreamhacks, MLGs and the like (maybe even moreso).
You guys are crazy not liking Mvp's playstyle. He was by far the most entertaining to watch in WoL and is still up there in HotS. Watching him competently do every style imaginable AND pick the right ones at the right time is incredible.
I don't see what's unfair in having only Koreans in the World Finals. They are the best and that's it. There's no reason to prevent some of the best players of the world competing in the world finals just because they're Korean and we have to save some spots for the poor little Europeans/Americans. Last year's WCS were just a joke, with dudes like Levin, Insur, Mafia or State and no Life, Leenock, MVP... just because we had to make it "fair" spotwise.
Do not mistake equality and equity. Equality is unfair: the truth is, Koreans are superior. Equity is giving everyone the same chance, and allowing the best to rise. That's what's happening right now. Great decision-making by Blizzard, and may those who rage about it use their brains for a minute to think outside their little European/American box and see the thing as a whole.
Am I the only one fed up when one player dominates that long? Frankly, it does the same for me in all sports. Every time someone dominates for too long, I quit watching/caring. I know MVP is not the only one winning tournaments, but frankly, I'm sick of him. And nothing against him really, just I hate this sorry state of affairs. But, hey, great for him.
On May 27 2013 10:52 ant-1 wrote: Am I the only one fed up when one player dominates that long? Frankly, it does the same for me in all sports. Every time someone dominates for too long, I quit watching/caring. I know MVP is not the only one winning tournaments, but frankly, I'm sick of him. And nothing against him really, just I hate this sorry state of affairs. But, hey, great for him.
Really? even Federer? come on ....
great tournament, looking forward to the next one (TLO !! <3 )
On May 27 2013 10:52 ant-1 wrote: Am I the only one fed up when one player dominates that long? Frankly, it does the same for me in all sports. Every time someone dominates for too long, I quit watching/caring. I know MVP is not the only one winning tournaments, but frankly, I'm sick of him. And nothing against him really, just I hate this sorry state of affairs. But, hey, great for him.
He's not dominating, this is his first tournament win since August 2012. It's been now over a year since he last won a GSL.
His story is more of the broken champion trying to come back and prove his doubters wrong, not domination.
Still amazes me why are koreans are allowed to participate in wcs europe and america this is a world tournament whats the point if 95% of competitors in wcs finals are korean they made wcs korea/code s for a reason but blizzard is stupid then again its just dumb how koreans are gonna win every regional tournament of wcs i am beginning to understand why lol and dota 2 are prospering and sc2 declining this is why. Screw MVP and all koreans in wcs europe and america you are helping yourselves but not the game we need more foreign players in big tournaments but koreans just want to beat up on lesser players in weaker regions to take easy wins this is why sc2 is faltering
On May 27 2013 10:52 ant-1 wrote: Am I the only one fed up when one player dominates that long? Frankly, it does the same for me in all sports. Every time someone dominates for too long, I quit watching/caring. I know MVP is not the only one winning tournaments, but frankly, I'm sick of him. And nothing against him really, just I hate this sorry state of affairs. But, hey, great for him.
On May 27 2013 08:13 VArsovskiSC wrote: Was pissed a bit for G4 in the finals when MVP managed to pull out a victory out of sth that shouldn't have been even close, but w/e - seems like Zergs (as well as Protoss) in the future needs to pull off workers (despite having a huuuge upgrade lead) to fight sometimes too.. (especially when Terran pull out SCVs - unfortunately t.b.h.. :/)
That's not true. Worker pull to all-in only makes sense with terran. Their workers are as fast as their main units, and tank as much as them.
For protoss, it's not worth it, because you can warp-in zealots that tanks as much, while still keeping an income (and be able to do an other round) For zerg, reenforcing with speedlings is once again a better choice, as the income you have provides you as much tanking.
And moreover, terran with mules makes them able to keep an income and even get back into the game if you deal massive damage but don't kill them. There's really a reason only terran worker pull (well zerg do too in some 6 pools...)
On May 27 2013 09:25 Provok wrote: I agree, that's sad that koreans are able to participate in NA/EU WCS , that's not fair... We'll almost only see koreans at WCS World Finals... Anyway gg to MVP and Stephano
i also want to see foreign players wins many of tournaments but think about it WCS is not kinda Competition for restrictions of National tournament from this year try to look in Golf Tournaments of the world
Europe has The European Tour, Unite States has The PGA Tour and Asia has The Asian Tour but they are No nationality restrictions to participate
you know what? Rory Mcillory who an north irish golfer he plays in PGA tour right now, and there are bunch of foreign players in The PGA and The European Tour and The Asia Tour
now WCS is NOT kinda Competition between countries and regions it's all about Competition between groups from now on
His game 2 vs Dimaga was facepalm worthy as the difference between the late game management of the two was clear. If Dimaga can shore up this weakness then he would be at a much higher level.
Anyway huge congrats to MVP. If he could win the WCS finals that would be like a dream :D
Why should Koreans be punished for being better than everyone else? It's such a silly argument. The World Finals would be so infinitely boring if only a handful of Koreans were able to make it through. Half of the matches would be Koreans smashing through the lesser foreigners that should not have been there in the first place. Sure, your favorite foreigner would be there at the World Finals "competing" with the top Koreans, but his participation would be short lived. It's not worth preventing a good chunk of the best players in the world from making it to the Finals just so you can see your favorite foreigner's face on the Finals stream and watch him get dismantled in his first match.
I don't know the format of the Grand Finals of the WCS, but just imagine a quarterfinal of Sase vs Soulkey, when it could have been Soulkey vs Mvp, for example. "OMG Sase is going up against Soulkey" would be the initial excited reaction. But it would lead to the same disappointment people are feeling right now, with the foreigner simply getting destroyed. Foreigners will be weeded out one way or the other, might as well get it out of the way now, rather than taint the Grand Finals.
TLDR; If a foreigner was eliminated by a Korean at WCS EU or WCS NA, he would probably be quickly eliminated at the World Finals, anyway. It's not worth giving a spot to a player that isn't a realistic contender for the championship.
On May 27 2013 12:07 qGSkipper wrote: Why should Koreans be punished for being better than everyone else? It's such a silly argument. The World Finals would be so infinitely boring if only a handful of Koreans were able to make it through. Half of the matches would be Koreans smashing through the lesser foreigners that should not have been there in the first place. Sure, your favorite foreigner would be there at the World Finals "competing" with the top Koreans, but his participation would be short lived. It's not worth preventing a good chunk of the best players in the world from making it to the Finals just so you can see your favorite foreigner's face on the Finals stream and watch him get dismantled in his first match.
I don't know the format of the Grand Finals of the WCS, but just imagine a quarterfinal of Sase vs Soulkey, when it could have been Soulkey vs Mvp, for example. "OMG Sase is going up against Soulkey" would be the initial excited reaction. But it would lead to the same disappointment people are feeling right now, with the foreigner simply getting destroyed. Foreigners will be weeded out one way or the other, might as well get it out of the way now, rather than taint the Grand Finals.
TLDR; If a foreigner was eliminated by a Korean at WCS EU or WCS NA, he would probably be quickly eliminated at the World Finals, anyway. It's not worth giving a spot to a player that isn't a realistic contender for the championship.
This is what I'm thinking right now. To all the haters, just be happy that some foreigners even made it out of the EU bracket. The "World Champs" should be by title the best players in the world, not six top players and ten randoms (no disrespect to any foreigners).
It's pretty silly that the haters are basically proposing that if you're Korean, you either fight a massive uphill battle to the top 6 of GSL code S, or you move countries so you can compete against an easier player pool.
I for one would have thought that as a generation growing up with the Internet we would have embraced the interconnectivity we share and recognize SC as an international platform and less so something to celebrate nationalism or regionalism. We are playing on tech that lets folks unlike any other competition face off with one another in completely separate continents and share community, forums, videos, chat, strategy, etc.
After these EU players have seen that they can compete with mid-tier Koreans, I hope this inspires them to work harder and improve. There's no reason for WCS EU not to become dominated by EU players in the future, and this increased difficulty due to a few Koreans participating will be one of the reasons for pushing the EU skill level higher. It's a much better outcome, and better in the long run, than having an isolated region whose player base becomes content on feeding on local events, and not aspiring for more.
Why is everybody talking about this no-name Mzp kid?
The REAL star and hero of the show is clearly TLO!
Gratz TLO! We know this isn't how you wanted your ticket, but do your best at the Season 1 finals in Korea!
(And I'm jk about Mvp, good for him, though being an Mvp fan for a while, you sort of expect this when he barely survives the group stages and plays nothing but Zergs in the elimination rounds when TvZ doesn't require you to play 10x better than your Zerg opponent. Also, this is WCs EU, not WCS Korea. Mvp needs to be back in perfect physical condition, then train to be back at the top. His mechanics are great if his body is up to it, and his BoX performance is like no other.)
"and when MVP saw the breadth of his domain, he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer." benefits of a classical education. LONG LIVE THE KING!
On May 27 2013 14:48 p14c wrote: So a code B level player from Korea wins WCS EU easily...This makes Europe Code C level I guess?
Mvp was definitely not playing at Code B level, his TvZ wins in the finals were better executed than most code a/s terrans. His play vs Stephano was really good, go watch the games if you haven't. He played better games than Yoda, Gumiho, Fantasy and lots of other Code S Terrans.
On May 27 2013 14:48 p14c wrote: So a code B level player from Korea wins WCS EU easily...This makes Europe Code C level I guess?
Mvp was definitely not playing at Code B level, his TvZ wins in the finals were better executed than most code a/s terrans. His play vs Stephano was really good, go watch the games if you haven't. He played better games than Yoda, Gumiho, Fantasy and lots of other Code S Terrans.
I think that in a way, the presence of very strong Koreans in Europe will help the Europeans increase their level, because if they want to be competitive against players like MVP they will need to train harder.
I was really delighted by TLO's reaction after qualifying for the grand finals by beating Lucifron: "I still think Lucifron is the best foreigner and out of respect for him, I'll train as hard as I can to do a good run in Korea". With that, he is now my far my favourite player.
It was also nice to see DIMAGA smiling all along the tournament; he seemed so happy to be here... Before facing MVP, he said: "I don't know what to do against him, but I hope the games will be fun to watch". I think it's a very good spirit, and I hope we'll continue to see him do well in tournaments from now on.
On May 27 2013 10:11 Baralai wrote: I don't see what's unfair in having only Koreans in the World Finals. They are the best and that's it. There's no reason to prevent some of the best players of the world competing in the world finals just because they're Korean and we have to save some spots for the poor little Europeans/Americans. Last year's WCS were just a joke, with dudes like Levin, Insur, Mafia or State and no Life, Leenock, MVP... just because we had to make it "fair" spotwise.
Do not mistake equality and equity. Equality is unfair: the truth is, Koreans are superior. Equity is giving everyone the same chance, and allowing the best to rise. That's what's happening right now. Great decision-making by Blizzard, and may those who rage about it use their brains for a minute to think outside their little European/American box and see the thing as a whole.
Where is the "Like" button? I want to click it 1000 times for this post. lol
On May 27 2013 10:11 Baralai wrote: I don't see what's unfair in having only Koreans in the World Finals. They are the best and that's it. There's no reason to prevent some of the best players of the world competing in the world finals just because they're Korean and we have to save some spots for the poor little Europeans/Americans. Last year's WCS were just a joke, with dudes like Levin, Insur, Mafia or State and no Life, Leenock, MVP... just because we had to make it "fair" spotwise.
Do not mistake equality and equity. Equality is unfair: the truth is, Koreans are superior. Equity is giving everyone the same chance, and allowing the best to rise. That's what's happening right now. Great decision-making by Blizzard, and may those who rage about it use their brains for a minute to think outside their little European/American box and see the thing as a whole.
Where is the "Like" button? I want to click it 1000 times for this post. lol
with this, a baseketball worldchampionchip would only be usa, soccer would have been only brasil for the last 20 years (not now, it changed) etc so on ... jaeh the best is cool but in a world championchip its the cool think we had "trinidad & tobago" in the soccer wm ...
I would like to stress big props for Blizzard for finally using the strong advertising potential of the game client. I had actually no plans to watch this (and no idea it is happening) but when we saw the whole menu screen filled with WCS EU LIVE NOW we couldn't resist and tuned in - it was just in the middle of Dimaga vs. MVP on Newkirk. Needless to say, we have abandoned the orginial plan for a 4v4 evening.
Also, after seeing Stephano pass forGG like a butter through the knife, I thought MVP would be an easy beating (and it kinda looked that way after game 1, as he made a LOT of unforced mistakes), but man, he is still so good in strategic thinking!
On May 27 2013 10:11 Baralai wrote: I don't see what's unfair in having only Koreans in the World Finals. They are the best and that's it. There's no reason to prevent some of the best players of the world competing in the world finals just because they're Korean and we have to save some spots for the poor little Europeans/Americans. Last year's WCS were just a joke, with dudes like Levin, Insur, Mafia or State and no Life, Leenock, MVP... just because we had to make it "fair" spotwise.
Do not mistake equality and equity. Equality is unfair: the truth is, Koreans are superior. Equity is giving everyone the same chance, and allowing the best to rise. That's what's happening right now. Great decision-making by Blizzard, and may those who rage about it use their brains for a minute to think outside their little European/American box and see the thing as a whole.
Where is the "Like" button? I want to click it 1000 times for this post. lol
Me too. I find it funny how people are calling blizzard bad, stupid, retarded for allowing Koreans to participate. If you didn't realize, foreigners in EU did very well in their WCS. Besides, if it was another "world finals" with only a handful of korean players and a bunch of foreigners who get stomped one sidedly, what's the damned point? I didn't watch those matches in the previous WCS finals that had foreigners in it, except for Sen, because I know anyone else would just get destroyed by the Koreans.
Saying that sc2 is faltering is just a hallucination you yourself has due to rage at not seeing your national heroes win. The game is great, and I for one would not care if sc2 only remained in korea, but the skill level continued growing.
On May 27 2013 07:08 Destructicon wrote: That widow mine backfire on ForGG's medivacs broke my heart, I felt so sorry for him after putting on such a good fight in that last game, only to have it coming crashing down like that.
However I am so happy to see Mvp somewhat back to his old dominating form and really happy we get to see him face off against the best of the world, hoping for a Mvp - Innovation grand final.
Me too.
My favorite moment of MVP was when "he showed us that Terran can still win" in the late half of 2012 when Terran wasn't doing so great (but MVP still owning it up). That really help me realize how great MVP is (not that I didn't realize that before, but it definitely help made him one of my favorite players now).
It's great to see him winning WCS Europe.
My main fear with MVP in HotS is that if he doesn't do as well, he won't be remembered as well.
MVP was one of the only few players to consistently be relevant (and probably top 5 players) throughout all of WoL (and that's almost 3 years of SC2), and that kind of feat deserves recognition.
I hope he continues his legacy and manages to reach top form again in HotS.
On May 27 2013 13:31 RyLai wrote: Why is everybody talking about this no-name Mzp kid? The REAL star and hero of the show is clearly TLO!
Gratz TLO! We know this isn't how you wanted your ticket, but do your best at the Season 1 finals in Korea!
(And I'm jk about Mvp, good for him, though being an Mvp fan for a while, you sort of expect this when he barely survives the group stages and plays nothing but Zergs in the elimination rounds when TvZ doesn't require you to play 10x better than your Zerg opponent. Also, this is WCs EU, not WCS Korea. Mvp needs to be back in perfect physical condition, then train to be back at the top. His mechanics are great if his body is up to it, and his BoX performance is like no other.)
Haha you may be joking, but this half true. TLO played a great tournament, far better than I had ever expected and even managed to bounce back after a devastating loss. He may not feel a winner, but he can certainly take a lot of positives from this tournament. It will be cool to see him play next season.
Btw wouldn't it be cool if every EU qualifier trained a bit with Mvp before heading off to Korea. The way he approaches Box is still top class.
On May 27 2013 09:51 Mellon wrote: I don't have a problem with MVP being korean, but he is by far the most boring person in entire top 16 to watch play. He plays to win, which is obviously really smart, but damn it's incredibly boring to watch. He makes his opponents seem like diamond players and the games keep on disappointing. Build order wins vs Sase and TLO only. I definately counted him out way to early, not even believing he would advance past ro32, im such a fool!
Either way, impressive by him to take this tournament!
I don't know how anyone could not appreciate watching MVP at this point. His decision making is always spot on, his positioning is second to none, his timings are razor sharp, his multi-game planning is leagues ahead of everyone else, and he has the most builds of any Terran in the world. He can no longer compete with the very best in the world on pure skill, but that only makes him a more compelling story. He's just a different breed of player. And if he somehow manages to take the season final, I'm ready to start calling him a bonjwa.
And just to say it, I loved just about everything about the way WCS EU was handled. Didn't think ESL had it in them.
I simply do not understand how people can be pissed off, that we get the best players through the different tournaments. How can you not be satisfied with the fact that we get the highest quality of players and games? Congratulations to MVP. Was a well deserved win.
I think everyone is pissed off because the whole point of a "World Championship" or a "World Championship Series" is to get the entire world involved. That's why we have Olympics for Basketball. It would be easy to just label the NBA players as World Champions, but instead we hold the Olympics which is considered the world championship. As a result of involving the world with basketball, other countries such as Spain and Argentina have caught up to the United States in recent years. That should be the goal of WCS as well. It's beginning to work with LoL LCS as other regions (specifically NA and EU) are beginning to catch up and be more competitive. If the goal was to simply assemble the best players in a single tournament, then just run the GSL since it already does that job.
On May 27 2013 07:06 ACrow wrote: Wax, no mention of MVP Jürgen Jung Hyun? I'm disappointed! Congratulations to MVP, he showed why he is the best player in SC2 history to date!
On May 27 2013 09:25 Provok wrote: I agree, that's sad that koreans are able to participate in NA/EU WCS , that's not fair... We'll almost only see koreans at WCS World Finals... Anyway gg to MVP and Stephano
i also want to see foreign players wins many of tournaments but think about it WCS is not kinda Competition for restrictions of National tournament from this year try to look in Golf Tournaments of the world
Europe has The European Tour, Unite States has The PGA Tour and Asia has The Asian Tour but they are No nationality restrictions to participate
you know what? Rory Mcillory who an north irish golfer he plays in PGA tour right now, and there are bunch of foreign players in The PGA and The European Tour and The Asia Tour
now WCS is NOT kinda Competition between countries and regions it's all about Competition between groups from now on
All I have to say to this is - look at the Champions League.
Your example is just stupid. I do however support Koreans being able to participate in WCS EU and NA.
I wish WCS had restrictions. I'm very disappointed that Koreans were allowed to participate in EU and NA. As much as I enjoy watching Koreans play, I think there should be at least one major tournament with restrictions. At least one. WCS is most suitable for this, but Blizz spoiled it for me.
On May 27 2013 21:21 stormssc wrote: I wish WCS had restrictions. I'm very disappointed that Koreans were allowed to participate in EU and NA. As much as I enjoy watching Koreans play, I think there should be at least one major tournament with restrictions. At least one. WCS is most suitable for this, but Blizz spoiled it for me.
*signed
It's even more frustrating in knowing that MVP despite his win is just code B in korea. No discussions about that. He knew he couldn't do it in korea so he competed here.
Comment from another forum:
I think it is a step in the wrong direction to have non europeans play in the WCS eu and non americans play in the WCS america... you will have the competeition either way in the WCS global challenge, so why have it before?
If every year another korean wins those tournaments no american or european will watch it anymore.
WCS EU should be about the question: who is the best european nation in terms of SC2. Otherwise: why do we call it even WCS EU if everyone can compete here?
This is like having soccer eu championship and not a france team would compete for france but a german team. and lateron in the world championship it would be germany against germany... whereas the one german team is actually playing for france o_O
man this is just stupid.
it is not about racism but about friendly competition that actually makes sense... otherwise we just have yet anohter standard LAN like dreamhack where everybody can compete... end of story
Dimaga is just awesome. They showed his reaction when he finally ran out of cash after bashing his head and a couple of thousands of units against mech-MVP and it was hilarious.
Then when ForGG blew up his own units he just had the most epic grin of all time, pure champ!
Can't say I mind the koreans, the EUs held them off pretty well and while I personally would've rather seen ForGG, stephano, TLO or Dimaga win instead of MVP, he still put on a great finals and the win was well deserved.
On May 27 2013 21:21 stormssc wrote: I wish WCS had restrictions. I'm very disappointed that Koreans were allowed to participate in EU and NA. As much as I enjoy watching Koreans play, I think there should be at least one major tournament with restrictions. At least one. WCS is most suitable for this, but Blizz spoiled it for me.
*signed
It's even more frustrating in knowing that MVP despite his win is just code B in korea. No discussions about that. He knew he couldn't do it in korea so he competed here.
It was partly Blizzard's fault in the first place with WCS system dragging down South Korean tournaments (that is, forcing no more than a combined 3 major tournaments a year from GSL and OSL, and forcing the prize pool to be set at a certain point matched with all other regions, even if the prize pool is lower).
If GSL wasn't reduced from 5 to 2 (and OSL from 2 to 1) a year, and also if those prize pool didn't get cut drastically, then maybe MVP would have stayed competing in Korea.
Currently as it stands, if you're knocked out of Code S and Code A, there's little incentive to stay playing when you can compete in other areas where the profitability is higher.
Though to be fair also to Blizzard, part of the reason is SC2 isn't doing as well in South Korea, so the demand for more SC2 tournaments isn't high enough for there to be other stuff outside of GSL and OSL I guess.
Finally being in Code B =/= being able to compete with Code S players.
For example, if there were 200 players and they were all equally skilled... then 32 out of 200 (even if they were all equally skilled) is Code S, 32 out of 200 is Code A, and the rest will be Code B (even if they are all equally skilled and can take games off of each other and win 50/50 in any BoX series).
(Edit - Of course people who consistent stay in Code S has to be commended but there are few players who have been able to consistent stay in Code S. Most of players in Code S right now are new... and MVP is one of the few players to be in Code S more than 10 times too.)
It's just how the system of supply (in this case, tournament spots) and demand (in this case, players wanting to be in tournament spots) work.
People shouldn't detract from MVP or detract from anyone just because they're in Code B or not in Code S.
The amount of pro players of course of SC2 has increased but the amount of tournaments spots has remained the same (and in case of the Korean tournaments, it has actually decreased drastically ever since SC2 came out).
Let's make the next Olympic qualifier for 100m dash with the same system like WCS, so we can have 7 Jamaicans and an american in the Finals. Don't you see how we get the highest quality and should be thankful to have such an awesome system?
I mean. Congratz to MVP i love the guy, and he deserves the win and everything. But he really shouldn't even be in this tournament. Either do the whole national system. Or don't. But this is just plain awful. Cheers to and ESL though, they ran a great show.
Let's face facts: Korean SC2 players are the best. I like watching high level games. WCS EU & AM now offer more opportunities to see them perform. I see nothing wrong with this.
On May 27 2013 22:28 Obender99 wrote: Let's face facts: Korean SC2 players are the best. I like watching high level games. WCS EU & AM now offer more opportunities to see them perform. I see nothing wrong with this.
P.S. - MVP!!!!!!
It's like saying: Hey you guys over there in Hungary. You know what. The second bundesliga (soccer) is way better than your premier division(no offense to Hungarians i dont actually know if the second division in germany would beat any teams in hungary). Why don't you just take the 10 best teams from the second division in germany and let them play for your championship. No really. We're doin you a favor. We have better teams and players. You get to see high level games.
I'm a little disappointed about the talk of Koreans in EU finals. ForGG has lived in France for over a year, plays for a French team and is a part of our european scene. He might be korean, but he is a european player. MVP could be called a mercenary, but if you're not interested by the story of a broken foreign champion seeking to redeem himself then you're pretty hard to please tbh.
As a mech Terran I absolutely loved MVPs play. That was fantastic, I would love to see how he adapts to hots more in the next season. Taught me a fair bit for ladder too
On May 27 2013 22:20 robson1 wrote: Let's make the next Olympic qualifier for 100m dash with the same system like WCS, so we can have 7 Jamaicans and an american in the Finals. Don't you see how we get the highest quality and should be thankful to have such an awesome system?
I mean. Congratz to MVP i love the guy, and he deserves the win and everything. But he really shouldn't even be in this tournament. Either do the whole national system. Or don't. But this is just plain awful. Cheers to and ESL though, they ran a great show.
Kinda agrees with this, however, someone like ForGG living in France, or Polt living in the US should be allowed to participate to WCS KR/US. The system as it is right now is not helping US/EU esport to grow as much as it could have, which is a missed opportunity imo.
It's like saying: Hey you guys over there in Hungary. You know what. The second bundesliga (soccer) is way better than your premier division(no offense to Hungarians i dont actually know if the second division in germany would beat any teams in hungary). Why don't you just take the 10 best teams from the second division in germany and let them play for your championship. No really. We're doin you a favor. We have better teams and players. You get to see high level games.
To use your analogy - I have no interest whatsoever in watching second division soccer. Do you? I like to watch the best of the best compete against one another. If there is not a single EU/AM player among them - no problem. I want to watch the gods play, not some scrubs who have no skill.
That forgg fail is easily a top 5 moments of esports for me, couldn't have happened to a more deserving player. Always hated his play style and it's always sad to see him get deep into tournaments imo.
On May 27 2013 22:38 greenknight999 wrote: I'm a little disappointed about the talk of Koreans in EU finals. ForGG has lived in France for over a year, plays for a French team and is a part of our european scene. He might be korean, but he is a european player. MVP could be called a mercenary, but if you're not interested by the story of a broken foreign champion seeking to redeem himself then you're pretty hard to please tbh.
As a mech Terran I absolutely loved MVPs play. That was fantastic, I would love to see how he adapts to hots more in the next season. Taught me a fair bit for ladder too
Great tournament, lets see more of it
don't get me wrong. I have really NOTHING against koreans competeing in the EU at all! But for competetions like this we have dreamhack, IEM etc. I am an american livin in germany... so I know exactly what I am talking about here.
but it's not too much to ask for one good organized EU / NA tournament with a high prizepool and not this ESL kind of 2000 Euro for first place stuff after competing for 3 month...
Local starcraft guys also need to know: Yes there is a high pricepool for locals that I have the chance to win. With guys like MVP most locals don't even bother to try. This is the problem with competition. It is like matching a high grandmaster all the time against a master level player. He won't learn anything but quit eventually.
And yes... there were awsome games.. Especially stephano vs. forgg. I loved the game. But it doesn't mean that we can't have awsome games with locals too. And we will never know if we don't let the locals compete and get better.
Like I said. It is like having a soccer world championship and the only thing you would see is germans or brazilians competing each other... no one would bother to watch because you need to a certain point identify yourself with the guy. That's just human nature. And it doesn't have to be bad but it can and will be on a friendly level. But to be honest I cheer for germany in soccer if they are in the finals. But I cheer for the US team as long as they are in the game... it's just the way it goes. And you CLEARLY saw that the crowd also cheered mostly for stephano... Everyone wanted him to win it... That's just the way it is.
Seriously, WCS EU is great the way it is. It needs a couple of koreans mixed in so that EU players are actually going to have to step it up to obtain a title. Otherwise you get a situation where neither NA or EU pros will ever, ever catch up to the KR scene, which is what we need to really have the 'local' heroes everyone seems to want so badly. Players like MVP are not unbeatable, they just require players to dedicate to the game more and organize themselves properly.
As it is WCS EU handed out 70k (70%) to EU players, with another guaranteed 15k coming the way of EU players. TLO made what, 5 times more out of this than he did at any other point in his career? Dimaga got more than he ever did out of a single event, and lets not forget the generous amount of money all the lower placements got. WCS EU is working exactly like it should be.
I seriously don't get why people are angry about koreans participating in WCS Europe and WCS America. I myself probably wouldn't have watched the games if there weren't any koreans, because it'd probably have meant that the skill level would have been pretty low in most of those games.
With the current system it'd be ridiculous to prevent koreans from participating in WCS EU/WCS AM. That'd mean we'd get a very boring tournement with way too few koreans and thus a very low skill level. There is no fun in seeing koreans bash foreigners. On top of that, if you want to make the world championship the most prestigious tournement, you need to make sure it has the best players. I don't think there are more than 10 foreigners in the top 50 to be honest.
One other way that I could see work is that you'd, for example, give KR like 60% of the spots, and EU/NA 20% each. That's how they do it with soccer, where Europe gets to send out way more countries during the Worlid championship aswell.
Either way around, just not allowing koreans to participate in WCS EU and WCS NA would make the final world championship as boring as it was last year, with just a bunch of koreans roflstomping foreigners.
On May 27 2013 23:19 Jerom wrote: I seriously don't get why people are angry about koreans participating in WCS Europe and WCS America. I myself probably wouldn't have watched the games if there weren't any koreans, because it'd probably have meant that the skill level would have been pretty low in most of those games.
With the current system it'd be ridiculous to prevent koreans from participating in WCS EU/WCS AM. That'd mean we'd get a very boring tournement with way too few koreans and thus a very low skill level. There is no fun in seeing koreans bash foreigners. On top of that, if you want to make the world championship the most prestigious tournement, you need to make sure it has the best players. I don't think there are more than 10 foreigners in the top 50 to be honest.
One other way that I could see work is that you'd, for example, give KR like 60% of the spots, and EU/NA 20% each. That's how they do it with soccer, where Europe gets to send out way more countries during the Worlid championship aswell.
Either way around, just not allowing koreans to participate in WCS EU and WCS NA would make the final world championship as boring as it was last year, with just a bunch of koreans roflstomping foreigners.
WCS europe last year was a huge success, and was without Korean.
First let's not try and speak for everyone. You're welcomed to your opinion but don't include me in your view that wcs should be region locked.
Second, wcs is the wrong event for region locking. That's because it's not just about the Europeans or the Americans. Each wcs leads up to the global finals and rregion locking Will hurt the scene by a) restricting Korean competition (less gsls less prizes) and b) will result in an unbalanced global finals since Koreans will just kill everyone.
Make some other tournament. But blizz only has so much money for prizes.
I think the tournament was great and MVP was a fair winner. I see no problem with WCS EU, lots of european players and some koreans to spice things up as they did. This in my opinion makes the tournament more challenging to our top players, will make them improve and surely a European Top will win this championship eventually! Bring PartinG around to play a season someday!
What I see more troublesome is WCS US, there they should do something. I understand Americans are pissed, but its maybe because they dont have enough top players there? Cause thats the only reason I see for a Ro16 group being just koreans, and those playoffs, where even a top european like Snute is. Though Im rooting for mOOnGLaDe. Anyway It was a good tournament also and I hope Scarlett wins one of the next editions.
To be fair to everyone complaining about "boring games with low skill levels" from foreigners:
I for one don't give two shits about "growing the foreign starcraft scene", since I enjoy watching the very best play only, and more than 90% of the time this comes from Koreans. However you can't deny that some EU players showed us pretty damn good games. Look at how TLO and Lucifron can play. Happy's bio play was inspirational. Grubby, despite failing this tournament, has offered a heckton of awesome games, some even against koreans, like his memorable finals in IEM Singapore, vs Sting.
Point being, I do not agree foreigners definitely=low skill levels, since there are a gifted handful who are at the very least code B, and would make it through the code A qualifiers on a good day. This especially applies for EU players.
I have not seen one NA player who impressed me though, besides Scarlett. Suppy, allegedly the new American hope, had that game against Heart (I'm sure you know which one I'm talking about) and I can't take it seriously to have him as the best.
By the way, please don't call mvp "a code B player". He can easily spar with the top boys of Code S, he just slumped during the latest stages of WoL after losing a championship to Life.
Don't forget next season Stephano won't be here to save face against Koreans. Koreans have enough competition between proleague and WCS Korea and I really think a region lock based around Permanent residency would solve most problems for the EU and NA scenes. I am not so sure the EU scene will be as happy to see Korean players wrecking everyone when nobody will be able to beat them consistently (doing it once or twice like most overhyped foreigners doesn't count) when Ilyes is gone.
Also funny how everyone hyped Thorzain, Naniwa, Sase, Babyknight and thought Stephano was already dead. In the end he is still, and will ever be, the best foreigner.
On May 27 2013 08:01 Azelja wrote: Woooohooooo, Mvp!
So, oh sooooo incredibly happy for him <3 If only he wins it all now... Hey, one can dream, right? :D
I hope so too ;D Mvp looked pretty strong and 4-1 against Stephano is pretty impressive considering that he is the foreigner that the koreans always respected the most. Sure, there are players like Innovation who just looks unstoppable atm but if Mvp keeps up his Training who knows? ;D. And Innovation even has his weaknesses in TvT
On May 27 2013 09:32 mythandier wrote: Excited for Mvp and well played by Stephano but still so silly for the representatives for non-Korean regions to be Korean. Oh well. At least I get to watch good games ^_^
If there was no Koreans in WCS EU and WCS US, they'd be pretty worthless tournaments from a gameplay quality standpoint. Not to mention that whilst winning against Europeans is nice, winning against Koreans actually matters. WCS EU has actually been awesome, because we've had the top European players vs some good Koreans. Take out the Koreans and you basically make the entire tournament a lot less prestigious.
It's still no WCS KR/Code S, which is why nobody is getting excited for how awesome MVP is like they did the last time he won Code S, but the Korean element means this tournament is as important as your Dreamhacks, MLGs and the like (maybe even moreso).
Exactly this. The small amount of koreans made WCS EU an awesome tournament to watch (and stream numbers showed that too, exceeding 120k overall if i'm not mistaken for the final). Korea vs world is always an interesting thing to watch.
Honestly, if you want to talk about fair, then SEA/ANZ regions + Taiwan + China are kinda screwed. Even Moonglade, god bless his soul, doesn't even live in AM, and had to fly to AM on a personal sponsorship (is that you, Dox?) to compete. So guess what? Count your lucky stars (or your viewership numbers) that your region was chosen to have a competition in its own region. I think SEA/ANZ would have killed to play against Koreans, in a tournament to call its own.
WCS Europe was really an excellent viewing experience. They had good content between games (who doesn't love MC at the analysis desk?), energetic casters and of course some great games. I for one don't mind it at all that a koren won it, or that koreans are able to compete in the first place. It increases the level of play, and that's the most important thing for me.
On May 28 2013 01:15 ke_ivan wrote: Honestly, if you want to talk about fair, then SEA/ANZ regions + Taiwan + China are kinda screwed. Even Moonglade, god bless his soul, doesn't even live in AM, and had to fly to AM on a personal sponsorship (is that you, Dox?) to compete. So guess what? Count your lucky stars (or your viewership numbers) that your region was chosen to have a competition in its own region. I think SEA/ANZ would have killed to play against Koreans, in a tournament to call its own.
Hear fucking hear.
I mean if I had mvp to represent sea that would be so cool. But wait we do not even have a sea tournament so no representative
Lets region lock everything so everyone outside of eu am and Korea can't play! Bye Sen.
This was a really great tournament. Credits to ESL for the amazing tournament! Honestly, i had my doubts after the first qualifier chaos, but they really came back and delivered an amazing tournament!!
The level was also really great, the top8 players all deserved to be there, and a dream final in Stephano vs MVP. I didn't care who won of them, either amazing players!
Don't get me wrong guys I have nothing against Koreans but I don't want them in my tournaments
Edit: Sarcasm aside, the issue seems to be exclusively Koreans. Moonglade and Snute are in the Ro8 of WCS yet that does not seem to be an issue. The issue always brought up is "But these things should be region locked, I don't want Koreans in EU/AM", yet Snute and Moonglade seem to have done their fair share of American-killing in WCS America. Which, by the way, was never advertised like last year's WCS - the "America" only stands for where the tournament is played out. Nowhere was it said (at least not by Blizzard) that it should be limited to Americans.
On May 28 2013 03:25 Zealously wrote: Don't get me wrong guys I have nothing against Koreans but I don't want them in my tournaments
Edit: Sarcasm aside, the issue seems to be exclusively Koreans. Moonglade and Snute are in the Ro8 of WCS yet that does not seem to be an issue. The issue always brought up is "But these things should be region locked, I don't want Koreans in EU/AM", yet Snute and Moonglade seem to have done their fair share of American-killing in WCS America. Which, by the way, was never advertised like last year's WCS - the "America" only stands for where the tournament is played out. Nowhere was it said (at least not by Blizzard) that it should be limited to Americans.
Amen, please stop the Korea bashing.
Edit: It's like saying the French Open should only be limited to French players, the Australian open to Aussies and the US open to Americans. That doesn't apply to any sport, nor should it apply to this one.
On May 27 2013 22:28 Obender99 wrote: Let's face facts: Korean SC2 players are the best. I like watching high level games. WCS EU & AM now offer more opportunities to see them perform. I see nothing wrong with this.
P.S. - MVP!!!!!!
It's like saying: Hey you guys over there in Hungary. You know what. The second bundesliga (soccer) is way better than your premier division(no offense to Hungarians i dont actually know if the second division in germany would beat any teams in hungary). Why don't you just take the 10 best teams from the second division in germany and let them play for your championship. No really. We're doin you a favor. We have better teams and players. You get to see high level games.
On May 28 2013 03:25 Zealously wrote: Don't get me wrong guys I have nothing against Koreans but I don't want them in my tournaments
Edit: Sarcasm aside, the issue seems to be exclusively Koreans. Moonglade and Snute are in the Ro8 of WCS yet that does not seem to be an issue. The issue always brought up is "But these things should be region locked, I don't want Koreans in EU/AM", yet Snute and Moonglade seem to have done their fair share of American-killing in WCS America. Which, by the way, was never advertised like last year's WCS - the "America" only stands for where the tournament is played out. Nowhere was it said (at least not by Blizzard) that it should be limited to Americans.
The situation with Moonglade is difficult, because there is no WCS SEA. But yes, its not ok if Snute (or a player like Demuslim) participates in NA. They too should play EU unless they live longterm in NA (which they do afaik). But just be invited, or from online qualifiers to grabbing the money/points from 1-2 weeks of staying in the country? No, thats bullshit.
The situation with Moonglade is difficult, because there is no WCS SEA. But yes, its not ok if Snute (or a player like Demuslim) participates in NA. They too should play EU unless they live longterm in NA (which they do afaik). But just be invited, or from online qualifiers to grabbing the money/points from 1-2 weeks of staying in the country? No, thats bullshit.
Starcraft tournament is about the competition of skills, not competition between nationality. This ain't Euro Cup or World Cup.
Since some of you are Germans, do you have no bias toward TLO? I find it hard to believe. You Europeans should be happy for yourselves, you have MVP to represent Europe, who else is more qualified in terms of skill level?
All premier division games should be played offline and the Korean server tournament should reward more spots/money, I think it's a pretty obvious solution and preferable to region-locking.
The situation with Moonglade is difficult, because there is no WCS SEA. But yes, its not ok if Snute (or a player like Demuslim) participates in NA. They too should play EU unless they live longterm in NA (which they do afaik). But just be invited, or from online qualifiers to grabbing the money/points from 1-2 weeks of staying in the country? No, thats bullshit.
Starcraft tournament is about the competition of skills, not competition between nationality. This ain't Euro Cup or World Cup.
Since some of you are Germans, do you have no bias toward TLO? I find it hard to believe. You Europeans should be happy for yourselves, you have MVP to represent Europe, who else is more qualified in terms of skill level?
You can't say that it's all about skill, we tend to think that we have bounds to people that are from our country, that we have something in common between that particular guy/girl. That's why america is a culturally weak country, full with selfish people, but philosophy aside, I respect MVP as a player, but I wasn't happy that he won the WCS EU.
If you go for skill that's fine, but don't put a name on it with regional catchy shit.
The situation with Moonglade is difficult, because there is no WCS SEA. But yes, its not ok if Snute (or a player like Demuslim) participates in NA. They too should play EU unless they live longterm in NA (which they do afaik). But just be invited, or from online qualifiers to grabbing the money/points from 1-2 weeks of staying in the country? No, thats bullshit.
Starcraft tournament is about the competition of skills, not competition between nationality. This ain't Euro Cup or World Cup.
Since some of you are Germans, do you have no bias toward TLO? I find it hard to believe. You Europeans should be happy for yourselves, you have MVP to represent Europe, who else is more qualified in terms of skill level?
You can't say that it's all about skill, we tend to think that we have bounds to people that are from our country, that we have something in common between that particular guy/girl. That's why america is a culturally weak country, full with selfish people, but philosophy aside, I respect MVP as a player, but I wasn't happy that he won the WCS EU.
If you go for skill that's fine, but don't put a name on it with regional catchy shit.
Go to WCG if you want see Representatives of your country. you can happy with WCG WCS is not about competition between nationality if then WCS needs rest of locals, Europe,North America and Korea only currently
On May 27 2013 20:38 bhfberserk wrote: For those who have been saying about easy SC2 pathing, clumped up units look bad and MVP's game not entertaining. :D
This game was a complete clinic. Only MVP has spreads, positioning, and building placement like that. He makes playing Terran look like something from a campaign.
On May 27 2013 22:20 robson1 wrote: Let's make the next Olympic qualifier for 100m dash with the same system like WCS, so we can have 7 Jamaicans and an american in the Finals. Don't you see how we get the highest quality and should be thankful to have such an awesome system?
That's actually exactly how they do it, lol. The runs heats in the Olympics and the top guys from the heats get into the finals.
WCS europe last year was a huge success, and was without Korean. [/QUOTE]
Yes, and look what happened at the WCS finals. A lot of games with a large skill gap between the koreans and random EU and AM players, and with that the games are a lot less interesting to watch,
There is a reason why in every sport they allow foreigners in their national competition. Don't think David Beckham joined the Los Angeles Galaxy for anything but the money. If you want eSports to be taken serious people should stop moaning about a league like this. This makes it better for the non-Koreans too because it grows environments where foreigners can train like Koreans, in a steady league.
The situation with Moonglade is difficult, because there is no WCS SEA. But yes, its not ok if Snute (or a player like Demuslim) participates in NA. They too should play EU unless they live longterm in NA (which they do afaik). But just be invited, or from online qualifiers to grabbing the money/points from 1-2 weeks of staying in the country? No, thats bullshit.
Starcraft tournament is about the competition of skills, not competition between nationality. This ain't Euro Cup or World Cup.
Since some of you are Germans, do you have no bias toward TLO? I find it hard to believe. You Europeans should be happy for yourselves, you have MVP to represent Europe, who else is more qualified in terms of skill level?
You can't say that it's all about skill, we tend to think that we have bounds to people that are from our country, that we have something in common between that particular guy/girl. That's why america is a culturally weak country, full with selfish people, but philosophy aside, I respect MVP as a player, but I wasn't happy that he won the WCS EU.
If you go for skill that's fine, but don't put a name on it with regional catchy shit.
I see nothing wrong with the way WCS has been handled and quite frankly, EU held their ground really well against the koreans, that MVP would eventually win wasn't much of an upset however, considering just how amazing his longer series are. Cheering for a particular nationality always struck me as fairly silly tho, so I'm abit biased.
On May 28 2013 03:25 Zealously wrote: Don't get me wrong guys I have nothing against Koreans but I don't want them in my tournaments
Edit: Sarcasm aside, the issue seems to be exclusively Koreans. Moonglade and Snute are in the Ro8 of WCS yet that does not seem to be an issue. The issue always brought up is "But these things should be region locked, I don't want Koreans in EU/AM", yet Snute and Moonglade seem to have done their fair share of American-killing in WCS America. Which, by the way, was never advertised like last year's WCS - the "America" only stands for where the tournament is played out. Nowhere was it said (at least not by Blizzard) that it should be limited to Americans.
Amen, please stop the Korea bashing.
Edit: It's like saying the French Open should only be limited to French players, the Australian open to Aussies and the US open to Americans. That doesn't apply to any sport, nor should it apply to this one.
it's not about korea bashing.. not at all. The thing is: We already have multiple tournaments like IEM, dreamhack etc. etc. where everybody can compete. But to have one local tournament with a high prizepool is not too much to ask for. And to be honest: It is not about us. It is not about the hardcore SC2 fans.
If blizzard wants to propagate and to establish SC2 tournaments for a wider audience more people need to have an interest in it. And this grows by identification. And really no one understands the concept of a WCS europe wheras a korean represents europe. Like I said this is like a world championship in soccer where in the finals germany plays against germany, but one german team is representing france... o_O
In order to establish SC2 also in europe an america you need guys like TLO that win a tournament. It doesn't matter if they are the best... if this would be the goal then we wouldn't have WCS europe at all but everybode would compete directly in the GSL in korea... there you have the best of the best. But I enjoy watching a very good, but not the best, TLO, or scarlet.
Of course MVP won because he was the better, but thats just not the point. If I always want to see the best I wouldn't bother watching WhiteRas stream but I would watch mainly GSL vods... but I don't because I love to see whitera carriers...
sorry but the concept is just wrong. And next year... without a stephano playing we will have a korean finals.... that's just the way it is. And for me at least... I would still watch it, but I wouldn't cheer for anyone of those players because I just can't identify with a korean as much as I can with a european or american player in a WCS europe/ NA. And this is called friendly competition...
Great showing from MVP - really hope Blizz fixes their shit and region locks the next WCS. Until then, might as well just sigh deeply and wait for WCS AM[lol] to be over.
On May 29 2013 01:02 Targe wrote: I love how so many people are cheering for the wrong guy, it's Mvp not MVP.
Well, no..
Mvp is the player, MVP is the team, as everyone except you have enough wits to understand that this is a solo-players tournament and not a team tournament, we're not being that strict with upper/lower case.
Besides, hes used all-caps in tournaments in his ingame nick, of that I am 100% certain.
I always vote for the koreans just because I feel they are the stronger players and the best player should win. That being said I completely agree each league should be limited to that region with no koreans in the NA league. Its the first WCS so I think its just kind of an oversight they will fix, but it is important pro players here can win some money to get interest here.
If foreigners would just get better this wouldn't even be an issue. Personally I want to see the highest level of competition and skill , if that person happens to be from my region then great, I will be proud and cheer for them. But lets not water the purity of a tournament down by adding region handicaps because foreigners can't compete, there really is no excuse. The Koreans want it more (they don't just say this they follow through with results) , they train harder, and they win. Get better or deal with it.
On May 27 2013 20:38 bhfberserk wrote: For those who have been saying about easy SC2 pathing, clumped up units look bad and MVP's game not entertaining. :D
This game was a complete clinic. Only MVP has spreads, positioning, and building placement like that. He makes playing Terran look like something from a campaign.
I actually cannot think of a way to deal with that....his tanks are spread perfectly so that the thor can waddle through like a sergeant checking on the privates
Along with the decent frontal defense, anti air and detection, dont see how its gonna be broken anytime soon
On May 29 2013 09:39 Doomwish wrote: If foreigners would just get better this wouldn't even be an issue. Personally I want to see the highest level of competition and skill , if that person happens to be from my region then great, I will be proud and cheer for them. But lets not water the purity of a tournament down by adding region handicaps because foreigners can't compete, there really is no excuse. The Koreans want it more (they don't just say this they follow through with results) , they train harder, and they win. Get better or deal with it.
But you are not getting the highest level of competition. It is not the most skilled or most deserving players that come to na/eu and qualify. They are the ones who have the means and support to make the travel and still feel confident enough to beat the competition. There are probably dozens of koreans who would be more deserving of a finals spot skillwise, than what the current system gives us. But they just lack the support to dodge their competition and go on an easier route. How is that system providing us with "the highest level of competition and skill"?
The current system just lacks any sort of understandable focus.
Is it meant to mimick a world cup, where different nations are involved and you have local tournaments to determine the regions representatives? Doesn't look that way, because the local tournaments aren't reflecting the local competition.
Is it meant to provide us with the worlds best players, who are closest in skill? No .. Koreans number seven might be 100times more deserving than americas number 5, even though the latter qualified while the former didn't.
So my problem is not, that i don't like koreans in foreign competition, but that i do not understand what this tournament wants to accomplish.
I really think if Lucifron hadn't magically thrown away his 2-0 lead to ForGG with those unlucky mistakes, he could have crushed MVP and Stephano. And it pains me that he isn't going to Korea, imo he had a way better chance of dealing with Koreans than the current rooster that went through.
The natural evolution is that either, Koreans will overrun all international Tournaments, or/and sooner or later other players will reach the skill level and really compete with the best Koreans, if the best want to come here and own already, i guess all we can do is see it as a catalizator, it sets the skill level bar higher.
And yeah i would have loved to see a Lucifron vs Stephano final, i would have loved to see TLO not getting owned like that, and those one sided games are not so fun to watch, but lets be real; How anal can you get about denying someone entry to a tournament and under what "rules", couldn't those rules or criteria be met or manipulated anyways?
On May 29 2013 01:02 Targe wrote: I love how so many people are cheering for the wrong guy, it's Mvp not MVP.
Well, no..
Mvp is the player, MVP is the team, as everyone except you have enough wits to understand that this is a solo-players tournament and not a team tournament, we're not being that strict with upper/lower case.
Besides, hes used all-caps in tournaments in his ingame nick, of that I am 100% certain.
Are you serious? You're calling me an idiot? Do you really think I've spent this long on TL without knowing that MVP is a team? His name is Mvp, not MVP, why would you bother to capitalise his name? It's more effort. Everyone capitalising it thinks they are being correct or clever when actually they are wrong.
What a finals! MVP looking so dominant, although so was Stephano too until they met...
My favorite moment will definitely go to TLO advancing to take the 5th slot, I can't think of another EU player who has worked harder or who could better represent the Western scene (apart from Stephano).
On May 29 2013 17:05 Slashiepie wrote: I really think if Lucifron hadn't magically thrown away his 2-0 lead to ForGG with those unlucky mistakes, he could have crushed MVP and Stephano. And it pains me that he isn't going to Korea, imo he had a way better chance of dealing with Koreans than the current rooster that went through.
The natural evolution is that either, Koreans will overrun all international Tournaments, or/and sooner or later other players will reach the skill level and really compete with the best Koreans, if the best want to come here and own already, i guess all we can do is see it as a catalizator, it sets the skill level bar higher.
And yeah i would have loved to see a Lucifron vs Stephano final, i would have loved to see TLO not getting owned like that, and those one sided games are not so fun to watch, but lets be real; How anal can you get about denying someone entry to a tournament and under what "rules", couldn't those rules or criteria be met or manipulated anyways?
Not sure if Lucifron will be able to beat Mvp let alone crushing him judging from his TvT against ForGG. He looked pretty weak. Mvp was really confident in his TvT..
On May 29 2013 17:05 Slashiepie wrote: I really think if Lucifron hadn't magically thrown away his 2-0 lead to ForGG with those unlucky mistakes, he could have crushed MVP and Stephano. And it pains me that he isn't going to Korea, imo he had a way better chance of dealing with Koreans than the current rooster that went through.
The natural evolution is that either, Koreans will overrun all international Tournaments, or/and sooner or later other players will reach the skill level and really compete with the best Koreans, if the best want to come here and own already, i guess all we can do is see it as a catalizator, it sets the skill level bar higher.
And yeah i would have loved to see a Lucifron vs Stephano final, i would have loved to see TLO not getting owned like that, and those one sided games are not so fun to watch, but lets be real; How anal can you get about denying someone entry to a tournament and under what "rules", couldn't those rules or criteria be met or manipulated anyways?
Not sure if Lucifron will be able to beat Mvp let alone crushing him judging from his TvT against ForGG. He looked pretty weak. Mvp was really confident in his TvT..
Yes you have to remember that the RO16 match happened pre-training and pre-longseries. Anyway no need to speculate, it happened the way it did, we could argue a ton of things otherwise.
On May 29 2013 01:02 Targe wrote: I love how so many people are cheering for the wrong guy, it's Mvp not MVP.
Well, no..
Mvp is the player, MVP is the team, as everyone except you have enough wits to understand that this is a solo-players tournament and not a team tournament, we're not being that strict with upper/lower case.
Besides, hes used all-caps in tournaments in his ingame nick, of that I am 100% certain.
Are you serious? You're calling me an idiot? Do you really think I've spent this long on TL without knowing that MVP is a team? His name is Mvp, not MVP, why would you bother to capitalise his name? It's more effort. Everyone capitalising it thinks they are being correct or clever when actually they are wrong.
I am indeed serious but I did not call you stupid and as you said yourself "Do you really think I've spent this long on TL without knowing that MVP is a team" this should be a clear indicator that within the CONTEXT of this particular topic, we could with a 110% certainty asume that wether nor people capitalized one, none or ALL of the letters in MVP, would be talking about the player and not the team.
That would be the case for any person capable of following basic reasoning atleast.
Oh and as a final note; You could've spent 5 minutes on TL and have the same knowledge as someone whos spent 5000 minutes on it.
On May 29 2013 01:02 Targe wrote: I love how so many people are cheering for the wrong guy, it's Mvp not MVP.
Well, no..
Mvp is the player, MVP is the team, as everyone except you have enough wits to understand that this is a solo-players tournament and not a team tournament, we're not being that strict with upper/lower case.
Besides, hes used all-caps in tournaments in his ingame nick, of that I am 100% certain.
Are you serious? You're calling me an idiot? Do you really think I've spent this long on TL without knowing that MVP is a team? His name is Mvp, not MVP, why would you bother to capitalise his name? It's more effort. Everyone capitalising it thinks they are being correct or clever when actually they are wrong.
I am indeed serious but I did not call you stupid and as you said yourself "Do you really think I've spent this long on TL without knowing that MVP is a team" this should be a clear indicator that within the CONTEXT of this particular topic, we could with a 110% certainty asume that wether nor people capitalized one, none or ALL of the letters in MVP, would be talking about the player and not the team.
That would be the case for any person capable of following basic reasoning atleast.
Oh and as a final note; You could've spent 5 minutes on TL and have the same knowledge as someone whos spent 5000 minutes on it.
Again with the passive aggressive insulting, leave that out of it. I said nothing about the knowledge of someone with less posts than me when I mentioned how long I had been here, I am simply stating that after this much time it would be obvious that I know the difference between MVP the team and Mvp the player.
It doesn't matter if in this context MVP, MvP or whatever is recognizable as Mvp because it is still wrong, it will always be wrong, his name is Mvp yet people always misspell it.
I don't want to derail this thread any more, you just seem to be going for a personal attack against me when all I'm doing is pointing out people who say MVP are wrong.
Mvp fighting!
Edit: PM'ed you, I said I wanted to keep this out of the thread.
Again with the passive aggressive insulting, leave that out of it. I said nothing about the knowledge of someone with less posts than me when I mentioned how long I had been here, I am simply stating that after this much time it would be obvious that I know the difference between MVP the team and Mvp the player.
It doesn't matter if in this context MVP, MvP or whatever is recognizable as Mvp because it is still wrong, it will always be wrong, his name is Mvp yet people always misspell it.
I don't want to derail this thread any more, you just seem to be going for a personal attack against me when all I'm doing is pointing out people who say MVP are wrong.
Mvp fighting!
And I'm just saying that your time spent here does not translate into knowledge, for all I know you could've spent all your time on these forums complaining about how zealots with 2/2 upgrades and charge are ruining the game, that you would know wether or not a team uses full upper-case in their name and a player who shares that name does not, would still be left completely blank, as you were clearly so huttburt over people calling him MVP/MVp/mVP/mVp/mvp instead of Mvp that you had to call people on it, now as I said, considering this entire topic is regarding a player winning a solo tournament over a team tournament, it is blatantly obvious that it is the player everyone is talking about, so wether or not mvp, Mvp or MVP is used, they're all refering to the exact same person and as such are not wrong in the slightest.
EPT
Mvp limped into the GSL Code S finals. For the first time in his career he was not the prohibitive favorite to win. Plagued by nagging wrist injuries and with the players around him improving by leaps and bounds, it seemed like the reign of King Mvp was coming to an end. Instead, he proceeded to win his fourth GSL title.
Stephano![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2013/Europe_1/europefinalbracket.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/s0tZnij.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2013/Europe_1/consolationbracket.png)
MVP Jürgen Jung Hyun? I'm disappointed!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cMH3mFw.png)
