• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:40
CEST 07:40
KST 14:40
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)12Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 9-15): herO doubles on GSL week2Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer12Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson."2Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey.8Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)14
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025) Weekly Cups (June 9-15): herO doubles on GSL week The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL
Tourneys
EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1) SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] Darkgrid Layout
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target
Brood War
General
StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu
Tourneys
[BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - LB Round 4 & 5 [ASL19] Grand Finals [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - WB Finals & LBR3 The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread Echoes of Revolution and Separation
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How Pro Gamers Cope with Str…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 34442 users

Backseat Broodwar - Vol. 4

Forum Index > News
65 CommentsPost a Reply
Normal

Backseat Broodwar - Vol. 4

Text byriptide
November 7th, 2009 16:46 GMT
[image loading]

by Plexatide

What a week it's been at BBW headquarters. Apart from our usual run through of Broodwar, we've also taken time off our busy schedules to propose a complete overhaul to the way progaming is taught and practised. Before such serious business unfolds though, let's take a look at this week in brief, and what better way to do so than begin with a conversation between two of TL's finest minds.

pachi.: there is no break between rounds
riptide: NO BREAK?
pachi.: end one week, start again the next
riptide: SRSLY?
riptide: BUT BUT BUT JAEDONG NEEDS TO REST
riptide: JAEDONG NEEDS REST
riptide: OTHERWISE HE WILL LOSE
riptide: ZVZ ESP
pachi.: between the rounds that involve winners maybe
riptide: JAEDONG NEEDS TO REST. HE IS CARRYING HIS WHOLE TEAM
riptide: HIS WHOLE TEAM
riptide: HIS WHOLE TEAM PACHI WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN
pachi.: killer will save them
pachi.: dw
riptide: lol
riptide: low blow
riptide: i am going to paste this convo into BBW
pachi.: go for it
pachi.: killer is the best
pachi.: he will stop hyuk

Indeed, it is intellectuals such as this that have asked us to propose that some enterprising TL research slaves undergraduates take a look at the Myers-Briggs test results of forum goers and see what parallels they can draw from each personality type to the Broodwar races played by them. We're no psychologists, but are pretty sure that Killer's type is most certainly FAIL. Indeed, one could say that after a week like this he is in good standing to bid to play on the Lomo/Backho/Failbathero suckage reunion tour.

Enough about failing aces though. Getting into some basic theorycrafting, we'd like to take the opportunity to thank ETT for bumping this thread.

On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote:
Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit.
This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it
is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even
a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the
story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but
all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one.
About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs.
How is this even remotely balanced!?

Iknorite - ZvP, srsly why even play it? Let's face it, this is the Swarm Season, with two Zerg in every tree. Still, is that necessarily a bad thing? Some will argue that mirrors will suck, and maybe that's true to an extent, but in the long run, we feel that a race dominating from time to time is a good thing. Perceived imbalance or ZOMGWTFIMBA, whatever you want to call this phenomenon, is a good thing because it brings about innovation. With Protoss stuck at the bottom of the ladder for the past two seasons, they haven't been winning much. Yet, in the long run, it is their gameplay that is developing, and it is the PvZ metagame that is going to reap the benefits of this in the months and seasons to come.

Let's look at some history. Before the GOMTV MSL S1 finals, Savior's ZvP was for all intents and purposes unstoppable. Yet a young Protoss walked in, and with the now legendary Bisubuild™, took him to pieces. This series is so influential not just because Savior was felled, though this was quite a feat in itself. It was most important because it was replicated five billion times on the ladders, making Zergs rethink how they played ZvP. In reply, Zergs had to adapt and it is as a result of such an evolution that we now see the 3Hatch Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra build standardised in ZvP.

We could go on, but you get the point - this Swarm Season is good for progaming. Sure, Perfectman may not get very far, but the Protoss that matter will do well despite the imbalances. Stork has been tearing it up lately despite the maps, and Bisu has been doing great too, his OSL loss notwithstanding. Either way, it is from these players that the innovations of modern PvZ will emerge and so we do wish them success in this next season, because a lot of what Protoss is going to do in the months to come is going to depend on how players of this calibre adapt to the invading swarm.

[image loading]

There HAS to be a better way to train the next generation of Progamer!

Now, let's get down to some serious business, and by serious business we mean SRS BZNZ. Korean training methods by now are quite well known throughout the land. The recipe is quite simple; throw a bunch of great players together and mass game playing through basically the exact same build an uncountable number of times. If you’re a top level player, maybe you focus on nonstandard builds like proxy gates or 14 Nexus – however if you are a B teamer you will be practicing the same basic build order repeatedly over and over again. This isn’t a bad thing – players need to practice to get their mechanics up to par above all else since mechanics are what wins games. For more information about this check out Artosis’s immortal thread on the subject.

Backseat Broodwar is here to tell you that Korea is doing it wrong. What? How do two nerds sitting behind their laptops think they know more than people who are being paid to coach these teams? It’s because foreigners are better. There, I said it. Foreigners have lead the way in innovation all along – rekrul pioneered Arbiters, Eriador showed us just how good Queens really are, KawaiiRice worked out the optimum way to avoid Medics wasting their energy healing plagued marines etc. It is time that the foreigners show the Koreans really how to practice.

Starcraft is an esport, so let’s draw an analogy to sports let’s say, football (the real kind), since it’s the most popular sport on the planet. Mechanics are precisely equivalent to fitness – without a certain benchmark fitness standard you just can’t compete with the best since they’ll just outlast you – no matter how many cute tricks you can pull. The same applies to Broodwar – without the benchmark mechanics you can’t last against progamers since they just pull too far ahead. So obviously, footballers work on their fitness. How do they do that? Gym sessions, runs etc. They have ‘specialised’ exercises dedicated to building up their fitness.

Let’s look at what Korea is doing – they are playing out whole games of Starcraft (albeit the most basic kind) which is equivalent to footballers playing games of football without doing anything fancy – just passing, running, and scoring. That’s not the right way to be improving your mechanics!!! (or fitness, for that matter). Just like real sports you need to have dedicated exercises designed to build up your mechanics. The question is – how do you do it? Well you could code UMS maps, but thats ridiculously hard – thankfully, Backseat Broodwar has an efficient and elegant solution. We call it “the Save Game Method” of training.

[image loading]

Shhhh, it's a secret

Firstly, you must forget about ‘winning’ and ‘losing’ – these are just distractions from improvement and seeking to win a game is not going to make you a better player. With that in mind, let’s look at the theory behind this method. In the first 10 or so minutes of the game – pretty much nothing happens. This is the early/early-mid game. Sure, Zergs will harass Terrans with Mutalisks – but defending Mutalisks is a skill, not mechanics, and training this is another issue which will be discussed shortly. Once you get away from all that early game crap, you are into the midgame where your mechanics are really tested. Let me make this point by simply pointing out that no one has trouble with early game play – thats just textbook stuff – the problems with macro always occur in the midgame. So why are the Koreans wasting 10 minutes of every game training their early game? It’s pointless!! Furthermore, if you suffered too much damage early game, kiss your mechanics practice good bye as your opponent just steam rolls you by 14-15 minutes into the game. No, what we want are long drawn out games with 100% certainty to best practice our mechanics.

So here’s the trick. For this to work you need a dedicated practice partner and a bucket load of time. Play out a normal standard game with your practice partner, ideally, one where you come out roughly even into the midgame. As soon as the game is in midgame save the game and then play as normal. If the game goes really long you might want to make some more saves as well. Once the game is over, don’t start a new game, load up your first save that you made and then play it out. Rinse and repeat. You practice is now roughly 66% more efficient than Koreans based on the estimate that a game is 15 minutes long and you are saving at the 10 minute mark. Given you play with your all, and are prepared to sit down and game with your practice partner for hours – your mechanics will improve 66% faster than Koreans.

The applications of “Save game training” do not end there. Weak against Mutalisk harass? Easy solution. Sit down with a practice partner get into a position where he is just about to harass you with mutalisks (assuming you have sufficient resources to defend – i.e. you didn’t lose all your marines to zerglings) and then save the game. As soon as you have defended the Mutalisks, or he has destroyed you – reload the save! Again, you cut out the first 6 minutes of game and you are able to get right into practicing against Mutalisks again. Just remember, that your objective isn’t to play out the rest of the game – its just to play out the phase of the game where you are defending mutalisks which lasts anywhere from 30 seconds through to 3 minutes – then reload. This way, your vs Mutalisk will improve dramatically over a much smaller space of time. To continue the analogy, this is exactly the same as a footballer practicing his handling skills in practice.

[image loading]

Leta would have benefited from the "Save Game" method to better refine his lockdown skills

This method can be applied to any ‘set piece’ of action. For instance this method can be used to train against Carriers, train against lurker contains, train against drops, train large army control, train defiler control.... you get the idea. Another side benefit to this, is that if your practicing your mechanics from the midgame – then you’re probably going to have a lot more late game experience; which is one area even the top Koreans are weak in as can be seen in the game below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAwhAVUtg-Q&feature=player_embedded

So how does this fit into some kind of training regime? Well, ideally you would practice with your practice partners to train all the little skills that you are weak in, as well as training your mechanics, daily. Once you have practiced these skills enough just play a few ladder games to identify further weaknesses in your game and put your new found skills to good use. I have no doubt that you will be seeing improvements in your play much faster than just mass gaming on iccup – especially with the frequency of cheese at lower levels.

So thank you Backseat Broodwar, for this exposé on the inefficiency of Korean practice schemes, and detailing the trick to optimising your practice.

In other news, Hwaseung’s terrible slump continues and simultaneously a very depressing realisation dawned on us. Jaedong does not matter anymore. Woah woah woah, back this train up – how can J-A-E-D-O-N-G, back to back OSL winner and all around badass, not matter anymore to Hwaseung? In comes in two sad forms; firstly expectation, and secondly the idea of a “new Hwaseung”.

Let’s discuss expectation. Jaedong no longer matters to Oz since he is expected to win. The entire team has come to depend on him for that sole reason – it’s like, sup Jaedong go out and destroy Hyvaa this week, or Jaedong – Zero’s your target! But no one really cares about Jaedong – they leave him to his own methods of training because he is going to win anyway. The focus is on the rest of the team trying to get them to follow suit. That sucks for Jaedong, but I suppose he’s used to it by now. But here’s a consequence of that – no one cares if Jaedong wins. To the rest of his team, Jaedong winning is as natural as Jaedong breathing, or eating, or dominating the practice games in the Hwaseung house. If you don’t believe me, look at the faces on the Oz team after Jaedong’s last win – depressing isn’t it?

[image loading]

Hwaseung just doesn't care when Jaedong plays anymore

If Jaedong loses, however, the team is disappointed and there is a reaction. Usually team moral gets shot right then and there, and the team loses. It’s like long term drug abuse – Jaedong winning just gets you back to normal, while Jaedong losing sends you crashing down into a bad spiral.

Contrast this with other teams, say, SKT. When Boxer or Hyuk wins a game the entire team is ecstatic. Indeed, Boxer’s smashing victory over Killer basically made SKT invincible since their moral was so high. Those wins had a huge positive effect on the team, which is something Jaedong just can’t bring to Oz anymore. Even Bisu and Flash are still able to draw some excitement from their team when they win since their accomplishments are not yet the same magnitude of Jaedongs – which definitely give T1 and KT a psychological edge over a team like Oz.

Furthermore, this ‘new Hwaseung’ that the Coach is trying to build at the moment is almost like trying to create a team without Jaedong. While this probably isn’t the intention, with Killer playing all the aces and comments flying around the Korean communities that the Coach is trying to create the next Jaedong in Killer – that’s got to have an impact on Jaedong and has got to have him thinking that he’s being marginalized within the team.

Yes – his parents are against Jaedong’s high workload, yes the team does need other options. But let’s look at this from Jaedong’s level. Never once has he complained about being overworked – if he has, show me the interview. This kid is a practice machine – and even if he’s not playing the ace match this week he’s going to be practicing for it anyway. Jaedong is putting in all this effort, but his position within the team is simply not the same as it was anymore due to his parents and this “new Hwaseung”.

[image loading]

The Tyrant needs to be fed

Where are we going with all of this? If this keeps up there is no way Jaedong is going to be able to keep up his mentality. As the ‘former’ star of the Hwaseung roster (I say ‘former’ since he really should still be the star) having all your hard work ignored has got to take a toll on your motivation to keep practicing. If the situation doesn’t fix itself over at the Hwaseung House, I seriously have to wonder if Jaedong will be able to dominate as well as he used to. The signs are already showing by the way, ZvZ is matchup that is seriously affected by confidence and practice – with Jaedong’s ZvZ looking a little more shakey, perhaps this is already taking a toll on him?

After this was written, the Oz decided that it's time that they start putting Jaedong back at Ace - and for good reason! The man delivers results! The task for Hwaseung up ahead is to balance the development of their new players while not letting Jaedong feel like he is under appreciated and no longer needed in the "new Hwaseung" vision. A tricky task - and only time will tell if the Oz Coach is up to it.

The OSL has almost determined its top 16 players, and recently, we added another Protoss to the lineup! Pure joined the top 16 in impressive fashion. Now let’s chat about Pure for a minute, because he is one of the great uninteresting hopes for Protoss – a ‘neo-stork’, if you will. Indeed, months ago, Plexa noticed Pure’s stylistic similarity to Stork and commented in his “Team of the Week” blog about it. But let’s talk about it here anyway!

Pure is a Protoss who makes excellent use of observers in PvT and PvP. And for good reason, those little guys are like 25/75 map hacks – an incredible bargain! His PvT is not fancy in anyway. He’s not a “BeSt” – i.e. he’s not going to go two base Arbiter on you. He’s not a “free” – i.e. he’s not going to use amazing micro to defeat you. He uses his observers to gather information, assesses the situation based on that information, and makes sound logical decisions from that assessment. Nothing fancy to be seen here – but this is an incredibly potent style that some of the best PvT in the world employ – particularly Stork. Stork’s use of observers is amazing as well, but, even then Stork’s usage pales in comparison to Pure’s. Just watch the follow game to see what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9IK6SnpXHM&feature=player_embedded

I do not know of any other Protoss, including Stork, that would have pulled off that move there. (for the lazy reader; Pure used two Observers to see what was going on when he couldn’t penetrate Leta’s base with one – he sacrificed the first one to turret fire while the second one was able to see Leta’s plan). Without doubt, by seeing the stimmed marines (doh leta... you don’t think Stim would have tipped him off?) and then the additional Barracks just up ahead – Pure was able to see what Leta was up to and adjusted accordingly. And well, he dominated Leta that game. It’s not a classy game by any means, its devoid of the flair that Bisu usually showcases, but it’s solid as a Rock – not the Protoss kind.

So keep an eye out for Pure in Proleague and this OSL – because this season he could go deep and surprise everyone (except for us here at Backseat Broodwar of course).

And now for the recommended games of the week! If you’re thinking of learning TvZ/ZvT then the following game is perhaps the most brilliant educational examples we’ve ever seen – indeed we implore Day to give an analysis of this game (and if you don’t, Backseat Broodwar will!). The game is Midas vs Killer on Fighting Spirit. Not only is this a great educational game, it’s not a bad game to watch either! So check it out, even if you do play Protoss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6k1mbeRkoU&feature=player_embedded

Another great educational game was played this week as well – this time for PvZ. If you are a struggling Protoss in this Zerg-dominated world – then this is the vod for you! Of course, I am talking about GosI[Flying] vs great. Now I, Plexa, have never really bought into the whole GosI[Flying] hype – yea he got lucky in that off season tournament, but so what? This game, however, has changed everything. This kid has some incredible potential – you could go so far as to say that this kid will become one of the top 6 Protoss within the next 6-8 months. This game is such an incredible display of timing, control, macro and overall game strategy that I’ve been converted into a believer.



Continuing the trend of the return of the old school – when was the last time you saw a Terran go mass wraith in TvT? Let alone, mass wraith in TvT and win? Flash and Upmagic have certainly standardised the late game transition into Battle Cruisers in TvT – and for good reason; they’re flying cows! A good BC fleet is almost indestructible. Eh, almost. There was a time when Wraiths were able to stand their ground against Battle Cruisers – like in the classic Boxer vs Oov game on Ride of Valkyries (I’m linking it, but it’s only the last 15 minutes)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kw4M1D8FmE&feature=player_embedded

But last week, old school Brood war fans, Ruby brought back the Wraith with style! When he was pushed to the wall in his game against Mr. Standard (Skyhigh – seriously, he’s the neo-Goodfriend) – Ruby took inspiration from the Air Force and made 1287341 Starports and massed wraith. The resulting game was really entertaining;



Dropships have always been a really cool aspect about Terrans - or if you are not Terran - one of the most annoying weapons in the Terran arsenal. The same man who made more Wraiths than the Korean Airforce could ever muster decided that he would abuse the other Starport unit to its fullest. His victim? Roro. The stage? The OSL. Sit tight for this is one game that will have you glued to your screens for 30 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7NKSysioG8&feature=player_embedded

There were so many great games this week – including a completely nonstandard ZvZ between Hyvaa and Peace. What? Who’s Peace? Oh, he’s just some Zerg from MBC that hasn’t done anything worth noting... Until now! This game is an example of a really good ZvZ – not that Effort vs Luxury mediocrefest.



To gap off this weeks games it's only appropriate that it's a Pure game. And none other than Pure vs Leta game 3 from the OSL Round 1. This is ridiculously sick display of PvT at its finest and anyone who remotely loves Starcraft should watch this game. It has innovation, creativity, and a touch of old school in just the right proportions which makes this game an instant classic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ASIA7OV4-0&feature=player_embedded


Well, it looks like we're going to wrap up this week's episode with that VOD goodness. Hope you had an interesting read, and as always we're ready to listen to your comments and criticism in the thread, and of course tell you outright when you are just plain wrong. Until next time then, good luck and good games!


Thank you Silversky for the banner!
Facebook Twitter Reddit
AdministratorSKT T1 | Masters of the Universe
simfarm
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Ireland75 Posts
November 07 2009 16:59 GMT
#2
cool!
MrHoon *
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
10183 Posts
November 07 2009 17:01 GMT
#3
disgusting amount of content in this post too

wow the writer's team is really cranking out stuff
dats racist
Boundz(DarKo)
Profile Joined March 2009
5311 Posts
November 07 2009 17:05 GMT
#4
Awesome as ever! SO many great news lately, I just can't stop loving TL.
Nosmo
Profile Joined August 2008
Canada210 Posts
November 07 2009 17:06 GMT
#5
How are you doing these so often? This is so awesome.
Killer next Bonjwa//Much is also good//Savior what happened//Fuck yeah, Nal_ra!
Boundz(DarKo)
Profile Joined March 2009
5311 Posts
November 07 2009 17:18 GMT
#6
"Midas vs Killer on Tornado" It's fighting spirit.
Slow Motion
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States6960 Posts
November 07 2009 17:34 GMT
#7
I completely agree with training with less focus on going through the early game builds and more focus on dealing with specific mid-game and late-game situations. What I tend to see from pros is that the ones with experience are good at late-game, while the newcomers are generally pretty bad. The conclusion I get from this is that players aren't getting the right training, and are receiving their late-game training from actual games.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
November 07 2009 17:38 GMT
#8
On November 08 2009 02:06 Nosmo wrote:
How are you doing these so often? This is so awesome.

These are where all me FE ideas go to die
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
November 07 2009 17:42 GMT
#9
banner has me cracking up every time
Administrator
Captain Mayhem
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Sweden774 Posts
November 07 2009 17:42 GMT
#10
Damn.... Haven't finished reading all yet, but I have to say that the Jaedong part might have converted me. I was very anti-Jaedong just because you could always expect him to win (weird reason, but alot of others probably agree with me). Now I actually feel a bit sorry for him though :/
Gravity is just a theory anyway.
lokiM
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3407 Posts
November 07 2009 17:53 GMT
#11
this was an amazing write-up, VERY good read
keep doing these please
You can't fight the feeling.
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 18:07:40
November 07 2009 18:07 GMT
#12
Great piece as usual.

TL in general seems to have this attitude of "well the Koreans do it so it must be the optimal way of ", and I think this hits the issue on the head by calling them out some on the practice issue. A lot of people blindly follow without taking the effort to figure out why it might be done that way in Korea and if those same ideas are good towards your goal of hitting C- before your mom finds out you're failing chemistry.

There is probably a good discussion here about the value of training via endless strings of games vs gaming less and using more time to hone specific skills (things like macro/micro drills, theorycrafting, and just plain rest) but its tough to get into it without more specific knowledge of the inner workings of a training house (we know for sure they do at least some of this, but who the hell knows how much and how it varies between houses and team members).
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
November 07 2009 18:07 GMT
#13
incredible read, but stop reminding me of leta's loss grr
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
The Raurosaur
Profile Joined April 2009
198 Posts
November 07 2009 18:08 GMT
#14
Great writing, keep it up
:(){:|:&};:
AtlaS
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1001 Posts
November 07 2009 18:13 GMT
#15
It's embarrassing that I can't keep up with all these articles coming out so often. Great work guys.
I don't have mono anymore. Woooo!
Athos
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2484 Posts
November 07 2009 18:29 GMT
#16
Hadn't seen the game between Ruby and Skyhigh yet. Ruby is becoming such a baller now that he's on the air force. I guess the reason we never saw him before is because MBC had two great terrans in Light and Sea. It's really great that he's finally getting his chance to shine.
InfeSteD
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States4658 Posts
November 07 2009 18:45 GMT
#17
Wow! I been gone for a while... this shit is amazing!
w/e
LucasWoJ
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States936 Posts
November 07 2009 18:52 GMT
#18
Well-written!

The observer thing Pure did is nothing special, really. Bisu did it against go.go (the game he lost) to find out that gogo was doing the 4 rax build on him. He still lost, but that was because of his initial build.

Great insight about Jaedong and Hwaseung Oz. I never saw that before until just right now.
"Of all the words of mice and men, the saddest are it could have been." - Kurt Vonnegut
EcterA
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States949 Posts
November 07 2009 19:05 GMT
#19
Another great issue. I was about to sit down and mass game to try and break my way out of D, but eff that. Save game training ftw. My thanks to Plexatide!
251
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1401 Posts
November 07 2009 19:06 GMT
#20
nice writeup, thanks a lot
"If you can chill..........then chill."
danl9rm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States3111 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 19:17:23
November 07 2009 19:13 GMT
#21
fixes i noticed:


This method can be applied to any ‘set piece’ of action. For instance this method can be used to train against Carriers, train against lurker contains, train against drops, train large army control, train defiler control.... you get the idea. Another side benefit to this, is that if you're practicing your mechanics from the midgame – then you’re probably going to have a lot more late game experience; which is one area even the top Koreans are weak in as can be seen in the game below.


If Jaedong loses, however, the team is disappointed and there is a reaction. Usually team morale gets shot right then and there, and the team loses. It’s like long term drug abuse – Jaedong winning just gets you back to normal, while Jaedong losing sends you crashing down into a bad spiral.
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
Kennelie
Profile Joined December 2007
United States2296 Posts
November 07 2009 19:17 GMT
#22
awesome article!
ya had ya shot kid!
cgrinker
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3824 Posts
November 07 2009 19:22 GMT
#23
Also your banner kinda looks like mister peanut
Radfield
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada2720 Posts
November 07 2009 19:33 GMT
#24
Is it just me or does the korean kid in the pic have a flying barracks and command center. If so, that is definitely not the way to train....
Oystein
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Norway1602 Posts
November 07 2009 19:47 GMT
#25
Excellent write up as usual, but as someone else mentioned before Bisu have already done the dual obser move before, and I would not be surprised if someone else have done it before him. So its not like Pure was inventing the wheel that game...
God Hates a Coward
QibingZero
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
2611 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 19:52:50
November 07 2009 19:52 GMT
#26
Ahahaha... well, this volume is the first I've truly enjoyed. From the hilarious Jaedong/Oz observations that also leave a little bit of a sting, to calling Skyhigh the neo-Goodfriend, this one kept me interested and entertained. Great stuff.

Also, that kid is definitely using the arrow keys Boxer-style.
Oh, my eSports
Matoo-
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
Canada1397 Posts
November 07 2009 20:08 GMT
#27
Just noticed that there are "–" punctuation marks in like every phrase – just nickpicking maybe but after noticing this I just couldn't unsee it for the rest of the article – not sure it's a great writing habit to have.

And yeah my favorite BB so far.
Musoeun
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States4324 Posts
November 07 2009 20:22 GMT
#28
I usually just read these for the recommended games, but there was interesting stuff in here... especially the practice thing.
Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting.
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
November 07 2009 20:28 GMT
#29
BBW Headquarters LOL
Peace~
EAGER-beaver
Profile Joined March 2004
Canada2799 Posts
November 07 2009 20:50 GMT
#30
This writing is the kick in the pants team liquid really needs, reminds me of the old vod writeups, except better!
Simon and Garfunkel rock my face off
Tyraz
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
New Zealand310 Posts
November 07 2009 21:15 GMT
#31
Sick write up! Seriously with those VODs included it took up like 2-3 hours of my life lol. Time defiantly well spent!

P.s. For that secret you shall be immortalized.... maybe.
100% Pure.
tree.hugger
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 21:42:42
November 07 2009 21:40 GMT
#32
Great write-up! Interesting idea with the "Save Game" function, I've really never used it, and I'm sure nobody else really does either.

But I would take (Z)EffOrt v. (Z)Luxury in a heartbeat over that
(Z)AverageZerg#1 v. (Z)AverageZerg#2 snooze-a-thon.
ModeratorEffOrt, Snow, GuMiho, and Team Liquid
EvilTeletubby
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
November 07 2009 21:58 GMT
#33
On November 08 2009 01:46 riptide wrote:
Getting into some basic theorycrafting, we'd like to take the opportunity to thank ETT for bumping this thread.


Moderatorhttp://carbonleaf.yuku.com/topic/408/t/So-I-proposed-at-a-Carbon-Leaf-concert.html ***** RIP Geoff
hempLine
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada63 Posts
November 07 2009 22:01 GMT
#34
Awesome writeup, I so agree with the whole team moral.
MBC T_T Ret for TSL2!!
danl9rm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States3111 Posts
November 07 2009 22:10 GMT
#35
i just took 3 hours getting through this. geez.
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
John49ers
Profile Joined May 2009
United States237 Posts
November 07 2009 22:14 GMT
#36
Nice write up.

The "save game" part was especially interesting. Reminds me of when the Miami Dolphins used the Wildcat formation to much success in the NFL. Teams could not stop it consistently at first but spent time watching film the putting it into practice. Opposing teams would have "situational plays" much like the "save game" and practice against the Wildcat. Now everyone seems (a little) better defending the Wildcat formation.
“The beauty of Bill's system was that there was always a place to go with the ball, ... I was the mailman, just delivering people's mail, and there were all kinds of houses to go to.”-Joe Montana
banana
Profile Joined January 2009
Netherlands1189 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 22:28:26
November 07 2009 22:27 GMT
#37
Insane write up, writeup, write-up

Took a while to read completely, was worth it =]
~chut~
Profile Joined September 2003
France1317 Posts
November 07 2009 22:48 GMT
#38
Plexa, even though you prefer Pusan to Anytime, you're amazing !
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 23:30:18
November 07 2009 23:29 GMT
#39
For sure one of the best articles/week summaries I've seen on the site, great job!

I do not know of any other Protoss, including Stork, that would have pulled off that move there. (for the lazy reader; Pure used two Observers to see what was going on when he couldn’t penetrate Leta’s base with one – he sacrificed the first one to turret fire while the second one was able to see Leta’s plan).


Just to make one quick point, (P)Bisu actually pulled this off against (T)go.go in the link below:

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/13392_Bisu_vs_go.go/vod
(look around the 10:05 mark)

Go.go also deep-six rushed Bisu, however, Bisu did the cute observer trick about a minute too late.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
QibingZero
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
2611 Posts
November 08 2009 00:54 GMT
#40
On November 08 2009 08:29 Hapahauli wrote:
For sure one of the best articles/week summaries I've seen on the site, great job!

Show nested quote +
I do not know of any other Protoss, including Stork, that would have pulled off that move there. (for the lazy reader; Pure used two Observers to see what was going on when he couldn’t penetrate Leta’s base with one – he sacrificed the first one to turret fire while the second one was able to see Leta’s plan).


Just to make one quick point, (P)Bisu actually pulled this off against (T)go.go in the link below:

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/13392_Bisu_vs_go.go/vod
(look around the 10:05 mark)

Go.go also deep-six rushed Bisu, however, Bisu did the cute observer trick about a minute too late.


I think with the recent 'resurgence' of deep six builds, some similar turret networks spliced into standard play could prove effective. At the very least, you'll really mess with the Protoss' mind, and won't need to fear any reaver drops.
Oh, my eSports
Necosarius
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Sweden4042 Posts
November 08 2009 00:55 GMT
#41
Thank you for this, some vods will save my night.
dranjam
Profile Joined May 2008
Poland198 Posts
November 08 2009 00:59 GMT
#42
Lol, i am 100% amazed by this write up and it's not easy to impress me. Never before anyone has made me so eager to watch a TvZ (especially featuring Midas), so gz and VERY well done.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight with you, then you win.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
November 08 2009 01:22 GMT
#43
Great writeup as usual.

Glad you added in RorO vs RuBy. That game is beyond sick.
RIP Aaliyah
MountainDewJunkie
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States10341 Posts
November 08 2009 01:44 GMT
#44
BBW headquarters...

[21:07] <Shock710> whats wrong with her face [20:50] <dAPhREAk> i beat it the day after it came out | <BLinD-RawR> esports is a giant vagina
ToN
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada245 Posts
November 08 2009 02:01 GMT
#45
Awesome read but was wondering if you could implore about the whole personality types vs being successful at starcraft part or did I just overlook it on the other forum?
ryuu_
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States1266 Posts
November 08 2009 02:12 GMT
#46
Great writeup, thanks for all your efforts!
♣ Jaedong. Stork. Bisu. Calm. NaDa. SC2: Sen, MKP, DRG, MMA, Grubby, NonY, Ret, Jinro, TLO, Sheth, HayprO, Zenio,Taeja,Snute, Sea, Rain, MC,Squirtle,Stephano,Parting ,Life, and HEROOOOO <3
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-08 02:58:18
November 08 2009 02:57 GMT
#47
On November 08 2009 03:52 LucasWoJ wrote:
Well-written!

The observer thing Pure did is nothing special, really. Bisu did it against go.go (the game he lost) to find out that gogo was doing the 4 rax build on him. He still lost, but that was because of his initial build.

Great insight about Jaedong and Hwaseung Oz. I never saw that before until just right now.

Oh I didn't know Bisu had done it before - regardless, Pure does make exceptional use of his observer in every game (you just have to observant to see those little guys flying around). But that's what so great about Pure - he's nothing special - just one solid protoss haha
On November 08 2009 11:01 ToN wrote:
Awesome read but was wondering if you could implore about the whole personality types vs being successful at starcraft part or did I just overlook it on the other forum?

That's certainly something worth thinking about
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
populis
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Brazil88 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-08 10:13:19
November 08 2009 03:45 GMT
#48
The article sounds so conservative that I couldn't resist to answer to it.

Firstly, this

It’s because foreigners are better. There, I said it. Foreigners have lead the way in innovation all along – rekrul pioneered Arbiters, Eriador showed us just how good Queens really are, KawaiiRice worked out the optimum way to avoid Medics wasting their energy healing plagued marines etc. It is time that the foreigners show the Koreans really how to practice.


is lame to be said. You say something ground-breaking ("foreigners are better, they have lead the way in innovation all along", all along, are you really serious?), then justify it with a bunch of unknown examples by most of the foreigners. Let's not begin with Koreans knowing it.
The repercussion of the foreigners acts is contained inside the foreign community. Why the koreans are always surprised by how the foreigners know so much about them? Of course that's because they don't know shit about foreigners.

The recipe is quite simple; throw a bunch of great players together and mass game playing through basically the exact same build an uncountable number of times.


This is what you see from your standpoint, far away from the Starcraft epicenter. Nevertheless I've seen many people, even the staff, countless times, saying they are like family to each other, they share more than professional matters. This act of simplify things to a point in where they get senseless is a fallacy.

Lastly, you claim to offer the real deal as recipe to solve all our problems. A stupid simple solution in which many of the korean kids must have thought of years ago.

So thank you Backseat Broodwar, for this exposé on the inefficiency of Korean practice schemes, and detailing the trick to optimising your practice.


And I said lastly because I had to stop reading right there, rushing to begin the practice of the save game trick and bring the real democracy upon those stupid Koreans.

I'm sorry, but one of the worsts articles I've read here lately.
Do androids dream of electric sheep?
TL+ Member
nosliw
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2716 Posts
November 08 2009 04:18 GMT
#49
What is KawaiiRice's innovation in preventing medic from wasting energy on plagued marine?
jash
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States11 Posts
November 08 2009 04:21 GMT
#50
This article says
KawaiiRice worked out the optimum way to avoid Medics wasting their energy healing plagued marines etc.


The only thing I could find about this anywhere was on Liquipedia:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Medic
Tip : When you don't have Restoration, and don't want to waste energy by constantly healing plagued Marines, you can press the Move button and click on a Marine. This will prevent healing until you hit the stop / hold / attack / heal button.


Is this what KawaiiRice figured out? Or is there something else? Also, just curious -- if that is it, when did he figure it out?
lets go pens
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
November 08 2009 04:24 GMT
#51
I really hate the stuff about team politics (the bit about Jaedong). You have no idea if you're right or you're wrong, you're really just guessing. Should Oz starting doing poorly, you're going to claim you isolated the reason. Oz does well, nobody's going to call you out of the fact that you were wrong ages and ages ago. Guessing the impact of a player on a team based on what you've read in interviews doesn't really get us anywhere. It just doesn't really add anything to think about while watching matches.

Pure - I guess I have my eyes on every Protoss in the OSL this season, as Zerg players had eyes on any Zerg player who advanced when the 6 dragons romping about.

Gosh I watched the Midas versus Killer game and I can't remember what happened.

Ruby versus Roro game 1 is really good.
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
November 08 2009 05:12 GMT
#52
god damn shitload of content

really nice idea about the save game form a practicing as well.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
November 08 2009 06:53 GMT
#53
Get practicing everyone
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Enteris
Profile Joined June 2009
United States51 Posts
November 08 2009 08:52 GMT
#54
I have to say, Peace's scourging of the Overlords on a regular basis is what allowed him to win. It prevented his opponent from continually producing mutas. Simply a master stroke.
Go July Go!
Loanshark
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
China3094 Posts
November 08 2009 12:02 GMT
#55
Damn this BBW is really going strong...hope it continues that way!
No dough, no go. And no mercy.
MrHickoryHam54
Profile Joined January 2009
United States208 Posts
November 08 2009 13:59 GMT
#56
On November 08 2009 13:18 nosliw wrote:
What is KawaiiRice's innovation in preventing medic from wasting energy on plagued marine?



ok seriously, maybe hes right. or at least he sounds right about this foreigner stuff. but that wont really matter. korea is still gonna sweep the WCG, still gonna roll any foreigner that comes into SCland, and still gonna maintain a monopoly when SC2 comes out.

you know why? its because out of millions of ardent, zealous amateur players in korea, at least some of them will rise to greatness, become royal roaders, and then perhaps bonjwas.
during this phase, they will take sc more seriously than 99% of foreigners take their careers.

then in foreign countries, sc is nothing more than a hobby or a pasttime. you cant make crap dollars in the USA by playing sc. plus, korea is pretty modernist, so if they see a foreign country develop better practicing techniques, they will be the first to jump on them.

so in the end, foreigners may be more "innovative," but they will NEVER be better than koreans at sc. thats just the truth
2009-10 Proleague MVP: Doctor.K_PsP
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4721 Posts
November 08 2009 15:01 GMT
#57
Seems I missed a bunch of top games this week. Nice writeup.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
ReiKo
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Croatia1023 Posts
November 08 2009 17:21 GMT
#58
Great writeup! Thanks!
the nooby SC kid
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada14 Posts
November 08 2009 19:38 GMT
#59
but still i disagree with u. korea is THE BEST SC in the whole world. we won WCG ALL THE TIME. what is there to pull weaknees to koreans. other players in the world cant match koreans. KOREANS RULEZ
hi people
dranjam
Profile Joined May 2008
Poland198 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-08 20:07:32
November 08 2009 20:07 GMT
#60
On November 08 2009 22:59 MrHickoryHam54 wrote:so in the end, foreigners may be more "innovative," but they will NEVER be better than koreans at sc. thats just the truth

Foreigners are more innovative because koreans only play what wins games and creative play of Nal_ra, Boxer and the likes is limited. And saying "NEVER" is asking for cosmic payback, guess what, Bisu and Effort just got buttraped by foreigner at IEF.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight with you, then you win.
ReketSomething
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6012 Posts
November 08 2009 20:58 GMT
#61
I just watched Jaedong win a game and it is depressing when Jaedong wins...even if he does do a :ceremony" or whatever. Sigh.
Jaedong :3
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
November 09 2009 09:39 GMT
#62
Thanks for the "Save game idea".

Great, and so simple. At least someone with the same opinion, that there must be better ways to learn!
Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
Foucault
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Sweden2826 Posts
November 09 2009 10:51 GMT
#63
great write-up!

However, nothing happens the first ten minutes of the game.....what? That's just wrong
I know that deep inside of you there's a humongous set of testicles just waiting to pop out. Let 'em pop bro. //////////////////// AKA JensOfSweden // Lee Yoon Yeol forever.
FakeKisser
Profile Joined September 2008
United States159 Posts
November 09 2009 16:31 GMT
#64
Great article. Thanks for the time you put into this. It's very helpful!
"Every generation needs a revolution" - Thomas Jefferson
Spanxxx
Profile Joined February 2009
United States408 Posts
November 09 2009 21:08 GMT
#65
awesome read. tyvm! thanks for pointing out a couple games i wouldn't have prolly had time to watch. i'll make time!
If people arent trying to pull you down, you arent climbing high enough.
errol1001
Profile Joined April 2008
454 Posts
November 10 2009 00:49 GMT
#66
Lol. I thought for sure that koreans were using save game to practice. I mean, it seems obvious.....
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 20m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft676
Nina 199
NeuroSwarm 121
RuFF_SC2 113
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 564
Stork 366
PianO 325
JulyZerg 129
Noble 114
League of Legends
JimRising 707
Counter-Strike
summit1g10908
Stewie2K1438
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0463
Mew2King141
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor248
Other Games
kaitlyn63
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick446
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH276
• Hupsaiya 59
• practicex 31
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift6716
• Lourlo1215
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4h 20m
Road to EWC
8h 20m
Lemon vs HeRoMaRinE
Astrea vs GuMiho
goblin vs TBD
Ryung vs TBD
BSL: ProLeague
12h 20m
UltrA vs Sziky
Dewalt vs MadiNho
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
BSL: ProLeague
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

NPSL Lushan
2025 GSL S2
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.