• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:55
CEST 19:55
KST 02:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202518Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder2EWC 2025 - Replay Pack2Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced29BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update Serral wins EWC 2025 #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 EWC 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Shield Battery Server New Patch BW General Discussion [BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 658 users

TL Endures Mafia - Page 2

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 04:05 GMT
#1600
I don't want to talk about why, but that did help. Thanks.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 08:31 GMT
#1631
VE is there any time you feel you demonstrated you were curious regarding Vivax's alignment?

My read on you is that you wanted to park yourself on someone unthinkingly. You wanted marv, but marv isn't killable D1. You wanted lurkers, but Marv wouldn't let you. Then you went Vivax and ran it all the way to the end. You even had vivax as a mild green read initially, then swung for the bleachers at them.

I don't like your read on die_meatbaby as hard green. She's pure distilled chaos and you think you read her that confidently?

There are other concerns that have been spelled out by others that I agree with (responses to post 324, your initial list post). Saying there is one mafia between DP and Marv is weird and doesn't seem to map to any internally consistent observation I can think of. Trying to sheep the first time player is also silly.

@Marv are you known for having a stance on not lynching lurkers. Does VE have any right to be surprised by your stance? Is VE generally known for LOLing?
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 08:33 GMT
#1632
@DP & VE
You mentioned the vig shot was bad for town, can you spell that out for me? I see it differently.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 08:45 GMT
#1634
And that's what you think VE thinks?

Why would VE and you (who were both tied to the train that saved MZ) want MZ to be mafia? Wouldn't that guarantee you guys are in more trouble than you currently are? The progress that would be made would be against you.

Am I missing something? Eli5 please.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 10:06 GMT
#1637
I think different people think about survival differently. I agree with your view, but surely if town is looking at lynching you next, as town, you're worried how far town is putting themselves further behind by focusing on you?

VE I'm leaning red. You I'm leaning green.

But I can never be sure with you. In werewolf I think I've got a chance of catching you out when I can see your face, you slow down a bit when you're lying. But in forum mafia you seem like you've got a system for doing things that you could perform as either alignment. You get time to think things through and straighten everything out. You talk a pretty big game about how good you and others are at this, so I don't really have faith in myself to discern your alignment.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 22:17 GMT
#1814
Hey checking in for the next twoish hours. Then I got a lunch I'm going to, then I'll be back. Gonna go catch up now.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 22:27 GMT
#1817
On May 26 2023 20:52 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2023 20:02 marvellosity wrote:

It could be, in the case DP is maf (this is entirely speculative) that they tested out what would happen if koshi got attacked and I stonewalled it and they made the decision then.

For TTT. This is exactly why marvellosity is town and how you can't see that from D1 is a bit beyond me. He's keeping town on track ALL times during D1, disagreeing/questioning the things he is not comfortable with and pointing out good points. This is what makes exceptional town player, not some big posts with "insight".

Just look at Koshi and DP N1. That's not exceptional, hell that's not even good. They both are good town players, but the difference of keeping your head straight and looking for what's important in almost any situation makes the difference between good and exceptional. There is no way mafia marvellosity could do this, i mean like if everyone had their head straight as him, mafia would never ever win any games, you have to "make mistakes" in your thought process as mafia because you need your team to survive. It's very rare cases when you even could actually do that throughout the whole game, and marv's town play is so good it's basically impossible to imitate that as mafia.

So there is that, i suggest you rethink your read on him if you are town, or mafia.


TBH I don't even understand what they're saying. What decision is marv saying DP made?

I obviously don't have the same filter as you do. Keeping your head straight isn't alignment indicative, in fact, since mafia are trying to be manipulative, I sort of expect them not to get down in the mud. It feels like you're conflating skill with alignment but my comprehension of your post is dogshit so maybe I'm wrong.

So you think Marv is so good as town, he's just confirmed town if he doesn't make mistakes? TBH that feels stupid to me because then he just wins all his town games and loses all his scum games. And you think it's crazy I don't know this specific thing about Marv (it's beyond you?).

I was already reconsidering my read on him and have said as much.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 23:04 GMT
#1821
Okay I'm caught up.

RE: Dodging
I'm sort of tired of people deciding what I should be doing or thinking about.

When I went after Marv, Koshi said I should be nailing down the newest player. This felt beyond stupid to me. Marv was avoiding providing evidence of his case (making me do it). Koshi avoided providing evidence that Marv was vetted (so I'd have to do it). And the whole time people have been telling me "no! you should be looking at MZ", the only person who seems willing to even consider the possibility that Marv shouldn't be default confirmed town.

While I don't like DP's description of me, there's certainly something to it. I don't think I've got this game figured out, and while I'm playing to win, I'm also playing to figure out how to win. I am beyond dismissive of strategies like "just sheep the good players, who are definitely town". I won't ever do that.

And despite all that, I was never parked on Marv as red. It just felt super wrong that everyone assumed he's town for what to me seemed like no reason. In particular, the way other people defended him (and at times he asked for people to defend him) just seems like he gets to control everything without ever putting his name on it.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 23:12 GMT
#1825
I would love to see the people on the MZ train explain why they were wrong.

I attacked Marv. I was told that's bad because Marv made the case on MZ and this was a good case actually. But apparently it wasn't a good case. So Marv wasn't a good town. Rayn you said Marv keeps town on track, but he "led" what would have been a mislynch.

I'm getting confused signals. You guys were wrong and now you're telling me off for not being wrong with you.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 23:17 GMT
#1827
@rayn
I read the whole thread with the mindset of vanilla town before receiving my role. So whatever my reads were (regardless of my alignment now), they were genuine.

My read on MZ was light green, and I thought the train on them was stupid backlash for questioning Marv. I thought Koshi was being super emotional and stupid about it (but I think his Vig shot was the right play from his position).

I also thought (at the time) that DP wouldn't take the risk of switching early as scum, because his general approach to things is to be non-commital and then commit hard later unless there's a good catalyst for him. But from what I'm reading from other players about his playstyle in this game is that is not how he plays in this.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 23:19 GMT
#1828
Also DP likes bussing, he's not the sort of player that would feel pressure to risk his own neck night one to save a relatively inactive mafia.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 23:20 GMT
#1831
ebwop
inactive => ineffective
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 23:26 GMT
#1837
On May 26 2023 22:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2023 20:25 TankTopTiger wrote:
I would have voted for Vivax over MZ, who I get a town read off.

Yeah he said this. Unfortunately this should hold no relevance because the situation has changed drastically after Vivax flips town.

Why does mafia!marv make "bad posts" about Meapak if there is no relevance on who gets lynched, hell he doesn't even need to push Meapak lynch.

He still reads Koshi and rayn town in the same post. He indentifies us three (and DP) as town leaders, regardless of if that's true or not.

Like with this information alone he SHOULD be considering Meapak's alignment again, before doing anything else. "Who i got a town read off" is not really anything, the read should be REALLY in depth considering three people who he thinks are town leaders voted for the guy, and one didn't (and was wrong).


This is I think a place I can make my perspective clearer.

I acknowledge that people respect you four, but that doesn't mean I respect your authority. I'm not here to fall in line, I don't see that as playing the game at all. So I can be aware of the influence you people have while being dismissive of accepting that influence myself. So basically, if you want to change my mind, it needs to be because of what you say, not who you are.

In my mind it's actually insane how much people sheep considering that alignment is RNGed at the start of the game.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 23:40 GMT
#1838
Yes let's move on. I haven't even really got to talk about anything else.

I'm gonna say a few things and they're not all necessarily compatible with each other, but that's my perception.

Regarding Koshi's vig shot, I think in his mind if MZ flipped red he'd basically solved the game because then he'd have confirmed that the doctor lynch was to save scum and could bring the hammer down on VE.

Regarding the NK on Koshi, I think Koshi was out of control and the mafia assumed that killing Koshi would make town take up his cause. I don't expect mafia to have predicted the vig shot, so they expected MZ to still be in play. So their vision for today was a continuation of yesterday, with MZ on the block vs. the fallout for the mislynch.

I think either VE or DP is scum, and I have a light green read on DP.

I kind of expect a diffuse approach from mafia, basically one on each wagon and one in the lurkers, or one on a wagon, an all-town wagon, and two lurkers.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 23:43 GMT
#1839
On May 27 2023 08:19 VisceraEyes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2023 07:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On May 27 2023 02:54 VisceraEyes wrote:
yo wtf how does rayn go from

On May 25 2023 09:04 raynpelikoneet wrote:
VE is town though, bad imo, but town. No questions asked.


to

On May 27 2023 00:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:
idk i am almost done with VE and voting him no matter what..
it's just too bad at the moment, i need a break.


like I don't even

Are you really just salty that I cucked your townie MZ lynch? Fuck off guy. I told you IN THIS THREAD that I was doing it you don't get to be mad about it because you fucked off and let me.

No, i am annoyed you call me "intentionally obtuse" a number of times when i am definitely not and making arguments you YOURSELF agree with, like:
On May 25 2023 08:23 VisceraEyes wrote:
Especially with your god reads backed up by Koshi and the rest of the sheeple? Why would any mafia fucking stay tunneled on marv in that situation?

Like this is what I'm talking about rayn, it feels like you're being intentionally obtuse, I understand biases but this feels...targeted. With intent. With an agenda.

like comeon you agree with my point it's a possibility when i was arguing i didnät think town meapak would un-tunnel marv. And then i am intentionally obtuse?
On May 26 2023 23:44 VisceraEyes wrote:
On May 26 2023 23:40 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On May 26 2023 23:37 marvellosity wrote:
On May 26 2023 23:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Like i am even entertaining to lynch LS just because if he flips mafia then i don't have to think about DP anymore. I don't think he is bussing.

I don’t agree, if they are both maf I can absolutely see him bussing. Why do you think otherwise?

idk why he should do that?

Killing Koshi kind of works here, but like... DP started the bus (if that's what it is) when there was no real lynch candidate (aside from mebaby). I don't think it's the correct play there as mafia, since there is no way to predict where the thread sentiment for town ends up on.

Isn't there, rayn? Isn't there? I seem to recall someone being able to predict where thread sentiment was heading YESTERDAY, when someone led the lynch from MZ to the DOCTOR, and I don't even have extra info. You think that someone with extra info would be unable to not only better sense thread sentiment, but be in a position to manipulate it?

Like...I've been pretty townie on DP but clearing him because he tried tried to lynch someone "when there is no lynch candidate" feels.....again, like you're being intentionally obtuse. It feels like I'm playing with rayn ON HIS FIRST EVER GAME. AWWWWWWW NEWBIE RAYN!!!!

This is full bullcrap because you're comparing scenarios some hours into the game vs some hours into the lynch and making it look like in both situations people should have the same amount of information on who gets lynched. Can you at least see hw there could be some holes in your thinking? But yeah no, rayn is intentionally obtuse playing like newbie.

And this:
On May 25 2023 07:29 VisceraEyes wrote:
On May 25 2023 07:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On May 25 2023 07:24 Vivax wrote:
I‘ma call it a nighty-o
1gu I hope delivers something decent in the future. I don‘t think he read anything at all tbh.

LS gets a downgrade for last appearance while rayn is being annoying on me, redeemed by being observant on him tho.

I‘m sorry if MZ is town.
I‘d also add (to reasons why I think he’s mafia) that his complaint about the egregious posting was warranted, at the same time it felt a bit like he was exaggerating his reaction. Maybe to gain a bunch of cheap cred with those insulted.

Should be an interesting angle to revisit at some point.

Dont worry i wont be advocating a lynch on you in ANY case (while i think you could be mafia) here. You will live to see D2.

You read it here folx, rayn is actively trying to protect mafia Vivax from the lynch.

I think this is where rayn fucked up ladies and gentlemen. Until now his play could be classified as stubborn town, this post right here proves that he's actively trying to harm town, removing the stubborn town possibility entirely because townRayn would never ever not lynch Vivax if he thinks he's mafia if the lynch is viable in this situation.

FUCKING GOTTEEEEEEEEMMMMM

Actively harm town my ass, all you even had was your read based on Vivax interactions with mebaby, where your town read marv had already agreed with me your read is not necessarily true. And that immediately translates to rayn is mafia?


And after that all, you have to come and call me all kind of things and try making it look i am somehow offending you? I came to this game to play a nice game of mafia, you're ruining it. Sadly i don't even know if you're doing it because you're mafia or just an ass right now...

You're the one getting personal and calling people bad. I could be wrong about your intentions, because I'm fucking town and I don't know your alignment. But you're calling me bad which applies regardless of my alignment. Fuck you rayn. You're not going to gaslight me into thinking I'm doing anything wrong here, you're the one with a bad fucking attitude because I DARE question you. I'm playing the game. Maybe you don't like how I'm doing it, but I'm doing it. I'm not ruining shit. I never called you "all kinds of things" I said it was like I was playing with newbie rayn because it felt like you aren't considering simple shit that WE'VE TALKED ABOUT IN PREVIOUS GAMES/POSTGAMES. And I did that ONE time. I'm not being mean to you or being offensive or anything like that. Maybe my reads are offensive to you. Maybe you dislike my reasoning. You were right that the Vivax read was wrong. Was it bad? Maybe. Maybe not. With a sample size of 2 I guess we'll find out eventually.

So you're either trying to gaslight me intentionally because you're fucking mafia, or you're actually so full of yourself as town that you literally think anyone who has a different opinion from you is bad at the game.

I'm going to be honest, I think maybe you're just town and a fucking dick.


This brovado feels empty to me. Like VE is saying what he feels he should be saying, not what he thinks.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 23:57 GMT
#1845
My issue with Marv wasn't that I thought he was red, it's that people thought he was green for no reason. So in pursuing that line, it was more about investigating* a situation than a person (*I'm not claiming blue).

I'm currently light green on Marv, he seems to have picked up a bit day 2 and there is widespread agreement that this is his town meta. You're my top town read even if we're butting heads over dumb shit.

Can I ask what sort of player vivax was? Was he someone who took pride in the chaos he sewed?
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 26 2023 23:59 GMT
#1847
I have no idea why a town VE is fixating on trolls or expecting other people to fixate on trolls with him.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 27 2023 00:07 GMT
#1855
I think if VE is green, then red DP knew he was green when he switched, and trusted VE to make a big enough mess to get lynched for it before DP. In that scenario, DP also expected MZ to be alive (and directed vig attention at lurkers), which means that after hammering the mislynch, DP would have two days of mess before the lynchmob came for him.

So to me, lynching VE also gives me a read on DP, who I know I will otherwise struggle with.

Add to that that VE did blind lead a mob on a townie, has generally felt fake for a long time, seems to want to put attention on lurkers/trolls - VE is my top lynch for today by a pretty decent margin.

##: vote VisceraEyes

I'm going to a lunch, I'll be back later before the lynch. I don't really see myself changing my mind on this, but hey surprises happen.

TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 27 2023 00:13 GMT
#1860
If vivax was someone who prided themselves in being discordant, I can imagine them having put those ideas in MB's head, offering some support for the notion that MB is an overperforming red noobie. But if that's not the case, I find it difficult to imagine they would go all-out like this on their first game without anyone influencing their approach in that direction.

IIRC, at some point Vivax said they were "being more insane than even them" which sounds like what someone who otherwise plays a trolly style would say.
TankTopTiger
Profile Joined May 2023
509 Posts
May 27 2023 00:32 GMT
#1866
Fixed, thanks. VE now in the lead.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV European League
16:00
Round 5
WardiTV742
TKL 274
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 397
TKL 274
Hui .243
UpATreeSC 93
BRAT_OK 68
MindelVK 34
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 1281
Mini 900
EffOrt 639
Larva 295
Dewaltoss 124
Mind 100
Snow 98
soO 64
Aegong 38
Movie 32
[ Show more ]
sas.Sziky 30
PianO 30
Terrorterran 12
Dota 2
qojqva4187
Counter-Strike
fl0m4366
olofmeister891
sgares376
Super Smash Bros
Liquid`Ken98
Other Games
B2W.Neo494
Lowko275
Trikslyr77
QueenE64
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH181
• davetesta29
• Reevou 1
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 6434
• masondota2328
League of Legends
• Nemesis4350
• TFBlade1081
Other Games
• imaqtpie833
• Shiphtur301
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
6h 5m
OSC
18h 35m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
22h 5m
The PondCast
1d 16h
Online Event
1d 22h
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
Online Event
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
OSC
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
Yuqilin POB S2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.