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On May 02 2020 00:01 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2020 20:31 Jockmcplop wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If this is suggesting koshi/shockeyy mafia I don't think so. Shockeyy's hard scumread on koshi is too much for early bussing imo. Otherwise I think the best part of this case is here: + Show Spoiler +Mild "don't lynch Kurumi" post. Feels so mild-mannered for Koshi, who is usually such an aggressive poster. He doesn't seem to care much about who gets lynched between GlowingBear, his super scumread, and Kurumi, his townread. Tells raynpelikoneet to keep voting for Kurumi while sticking on GlowingBear himself Its really hard to parse town motivation from these two posts. It looks like there's a contradiction, like don't townread kurumi for that post he made but we shouldn't lynch him but don't stop voting him based on that post. If you didn't want kurumi lynched, your objective should be to stop town from lynching him. why would you tell rayn to ignore that post and suggest that kurumi might be mafia for posting it? Exactly what I thought about Trfel's post. Good 
Yeah I noticed that too, I was just waiting to see if you would point it out.
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On May 02 2020 01:00 Alakaslam wrote:
Hey so @ Jock
If you read ShoCkeyy’s filter you will see him making little remarks as if he is trying to convince me I am scum like twice a day.
I will do exactly whatever the fuck I will do and I’m not changing to make ShoCkeyy think I am town.
Fine... you do you, but ima get suspicious when someone keeps saying they don't care what anyone thinks. Its like you're trying to convince us of that, or yourself, either of which undermines the idea that you don't care what anyone thinks.
I guess you probably don't care what I think about that though. 
I'll go reread shockeyy's filter with that in mind, since a bunch of people are saying he's mafia. I think he's town though.
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On May 02 2020 00:55 Grackaroni wrote:
I could really vote a whole bunch of people though tbh.
Which ones?
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On May 02 2020 01:13 Grackaroni wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2020 01:12 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 02 2020 00:55 Grackaroni wrote:
I could really vote a whole bunch of people though tbh. Which ones? Anyone that isn't Vivax or Trfel
So you could lynch Fefe. GB is saying he's definitely town. What do you think of that?
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On May 02 2020 05:59 ShoCkeyy wrote:
There's only two possible scenarios with the information above, either they're trying to frame GB or GB is mafia.
Also it eliminates one of the people from your PoE list (with regards to the two wagons)
So now there's two scum in koshi, slam and Vivax from your perspective right?
On May 01 2020 03:16 ShoCkeyy wrote:
If I assume rayn and trfel are town, which I already do think they're town, the list I'm left with out of those voting on myself and GB as:
Koshi, FecalFeast, Vivax, Alakaslam
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RIP Fefe.
I have some rethinking to do in the morning.
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Hey chezinu
If you have a read on rayn that you could give us a clue about I would find that really helpful. Thanks.
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On May 02 2020 16:09 Vivax wrote:Actually I'll banish that thought for now. Doubt I'd lynch Trfel today anyway. Gonna wait on this instead. Show nested quote +On May 02 2020 11:05 Jockmcplop wrote:
RIP Fefe.
I have some rethinking to do in the morning.
I mean, don't wait for this.. Fefe dying makes me question my koshi read alot, which in turn makes me question my other reads. I have to decide whether i still think shockeyy is town, because I was basing most of my reads on that one. I need to filter 4-5 players today though before i know where i'm at.
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On May 02 2020 17:01 Trfel wrote:
Fine. I'll make a phone case. No pretty quotes or links, so you'll have to read GlowingBear's filter too.
GlowingBear
1. Scumread Koshi for misconstruing GlowingBear's play. However, note the timing, he scumread Koshi well after this all started. Despite GlowingBear not having a townread on Koshi, he got mad at Koshi and treated Koshi like town and never questioned that he could be mafia until much later, when raynpelikoneet asks him about Koshi. This doesn't feel natural at all. Town tend to be quick to call their accusers scum, especially when they feel misrepresented and ignored and all the things GlowingBear was saying.
2. Shifting reads. His scumreads shift in priority in a way that doesn't make sense. First he says Jockmcplop is mafia, and Alakaslam second. Then he says Jockmcplop and Koshi are mafia, and raynpelikoneet or Alakaslam. Then he was making a case on raynpelikoneet to defend himself (huh?). Then most recently raynpelikoneet as top mafia. It doesn't feel like he is putting much thought into his scumreads.
3. Evaluates my post on Koshi at face value. While this is objectively good, I don't see this coming from town who strongly scumreads Koshi and cares about his alignment. GlowingBear's thoughts are correct, and that's the issue here. GlowingBear doesn't use it as an opportunity to convince me to vote for Koshi or anything. Not that he should lie, or ignore my points being weak, but he could have directed me to stronger reasons to scumread Koshi. Or pointed out the strength of my remaining point instead of merely saying it was the strongest point I provided. Feels like he is just sharing his thoughts instead of actually caring about people's alignments.
Sorry if that doesn't make sense, I know it's a lot of words. There are a few other points I could make, but I figured I would just bring up these things now.
##vote GlowingBear
RE: point 3, how does my analysis of your koshi post effect your read on me?
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On May 02 2020 23:17 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2020 21:46 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 02 2020 17:01 Trfel wrote:
Fine. I'll make a phone case. No pretty quotes or links, so you'll have to read GlowingBear's filter too.
GlowingBear
1. Scumread Koshi for misconstruing GlowingBear's play. However, note the timing, he scumread Koshi well after this all started. Despite GlowingBear not having a townread on Koshi, he got mad at Koshi and treated Koshi like town and never questioned that he could be mafia until much later, when raynpelikoneet asks him about Koshi. This doesn't feel natural at all. Town tend to be quick to call their accusers scum, especially when they feel misrepresented and ignored and all the things GlowingBear was saying.
2. Shifting reads. His scumreads shift in priority in a way that doesn't make sense. First he says Jockmcplop is mafia, and Alakaslam second. Then he says Jockmcplop and Koshi are mafia, and raynpelikoneet or Alakaslam. Then he was making a case on raynpelikoneet to defend himself (huh?). Then most recently raynpelikoneet as top mafia. It doesn't feel like he is putting much thought into his scumreads.
3. Evaluates my post on Koshi at face value. While this is objectively good, I don't see this coming from town who strongly scumreads Koshi and cares about his alignment. GlowingBear's thoughts are correct, and that's the issue here. GlowingBear doesn't use it as an opportunity to convince me to vote for Koshi or anything. Not that he should lie, or ignore my points being weak, but he could have directed me to stronger reasons to scumread Koshi. Or pointed out the strength of my remaining point instead of merely saying it was the strongest point I provided. Feels like he is just sharing his thoughts instead of actually caring about people's alignments.
Sorry if that doesn't make sense, I know it's a lot of words. There are a few other points I could make, but I figured I would just bring up these things now.
##vote GlowingBear RE: point 3, how does my analysis of your koshi post effect your read on me? Honestly it doesn't really, especially since GlowingBear said the same thing first.
You're wrong, I said the same thing first, GB turned up later and then said my post agreed with his, but mine was first.
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On May 01 2020 20:31 Jockmcplop wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If this is suggesting koshi/shockeyy mafia I don't think so. Shockeyy's hard scumread on koshi is too much for early bussing imo. Otherwise I think the best part of this case is here: + Show Spoiler +Mild "don't lynch Kurumi" post. Feels so mild-mannered for Koshi, who is usually such an aggressive poster. He doesn't seem to care much about who gets lynched between GlowingBear, his super scumread, and Kurumi, his townread. Tells raynpelikoneet to keep voting for Kurumi while sticking on GlowingBear himself Its really hard to parse town motivation from these two posts. It looks like there's a contradiction, like don't townread kurumi for that post he made but we shouldn't lynch him but don't stop voting him based on that post. If you didn't want kurumi lynched, your objective should be to stop town from lynching him. why would you tell rayn to ignore that post and suggest that kurumi might be mafia for posting it?
On May 01 2020 23:47 GlowingBear wrote:The first three points and the last one are basically associative. As town, you can say you'd lynch someone that seems to be a wild card instead of his main scumread. I've done this dozens of time. Last game we've played together I lynched Kelsier over you, my top scumread. This is only a strong point IF Shockey is mafia. Whenever I'm fed up with lurkers I also prefer to lynch them over top scum reads. The points where he keeps saying to lynch Kurumi instead of having me lynched is stronger, especially when he has been a lot tunneled on me. The strongest point is that Koshi hardly reevaluates his reads, he just assumed Jock=town/GB=mafia and went with it, interpreting every post under this conviction, instead of reevaluating his position with new information dropped in thread. Easy way to survive as mafia while still looking contributive.
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On May 01 2020 12:50 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2020 11:11 Trfel wrote:
Fecalfeast, do you have any response to my suspicions of you? Specifically, you seem to throw suspicion everywhere, it feels like you are reaching for reasons to scumread everyone. Primarily early Day 1. I have scum reads or at least scumleans on shockey slam gb chezinu and atm grack And i was scumming kurumi but actually can you show me where i threw suspicion everyehere? Pointing out or questioning perceived contradictions is hardly throwing suspicion
So these are the people that are implicated/framed by the Fefe kill.
Here's how I was on them before Fefe's kill:
town
shockeyy
town lean
GB
null:
chez
grack
scum
slam
I think i'm more likely to townlean grack now just because of his attitude and tone.
GB stays where he is. I'm really not convinced of trfel's case on him at all. In fact I flat out disagree with it.
Which leaves chez and slam in the null/scum sections. This makes me uncomfortable, they aren't two players who I want to build a view of the game on assuming their alignment, as they are both very difficult to read.
I think shockeyy is the most important player right now. I'm gonna go and reread all the reasons people have for scumreading him. I already said why i disagree with Fefe's reasons for scumreading shockeyy and his flip doesn't change my reasoning there at all.
I still have a strong feeling that koshi and shockeyy are opposite alignments.
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So the people who voted shockeyy are slam, trfel and rayn.
Rayn voted him because he didn't like shockeyy trying to lynch koshi, but rayn also backed down pretty quickly and went for people he was more strongly scumreading (some town points to rayn for this by the way).
Slam's reason seems to be about a beef with shockeyy and the way shockeyy has called him mafia alot. I'm using a particular post slam made to me about it for reference as to slam's reasoning.
Trfel seems like rayn, kind of not really bothered about lynching shockeyy:
On May 01 2020 02:50 Trfel wrote:
##unvote
##vote ShoCkeyy
Underwhelming filter. I like Vivax's (?) point about ShoCkeyy saying he voted Koshi only for a pressure vote, but also saying that Koshi's opening was a mafia opening. He's yet to give any other reasons to suspect Koshi. And more importantly, he's just saying recently "I like GlowingBear more than Koshi" while voting for Alakaslam, while GlowingBear is leading the lynch and Koshi or Alakaslam aren't really in contention.
Not sold on it but maybe it'll work?
Possibly just seeing what would happen with the wagon if he voted there. His point about saying he voted koshi for a pressure vote and also saying koshi's opening was mafia is the only thing i agree looks bad here. I disagree with drawing conclusions from how shockeyy was voting slam while GB was up for lynch. I don't think that looks bad on shockeyy and he never showed interest in particularly trying to save GB, but was voting for a scumread.
I still think shockeyy is town here. I just can't see any case for him being mafia except his early thing with the read on koshi, and that's nowhere near enough to scumread him when his reads have been consistent, and consistent with his voting also.
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On May 02 2020 07:40 Koshi wrote:
From reading fefe filter and my own scumreads I decided to this. ##Vote shockey
What was it in Fefe's filter that made you vote shockeyy? Have you read the post where I responded to Fefe's pressure on shockeyy?
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On May 03 2020 06:56 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 06:41 Vivax wrote:On May 03 2020 06:19 Trfel wrote:On May 03 2020 05:41 Vivax wrote:On May 03 2020 05:37 Trfel wrote:I take it people were very underwhelmed by my post on GlowingBear  Hard to think of something I'm not underwhelmed from. Which people btw. ##Vote rayn Just no one commented on it. Maybe I need to rewrite it. Voting raynpelikoneet if he doesn't play makes sense? Except for a lot of people aren't playing currently Yeah I'm sorry if I don't pay too much attention to your case right now. I'm also kinda triggered that today to me feels like a circlejerk between you and me. But if vets I'm used to like Koshi and rayn basically put 1% of the effort they did on D1, coupled with the FF kill, then odds are at least one of them is mafia. And I'm putting my money on rayn, also because of his voting shenanigans yesterday. Hm, that makes sense, fair enough. I'll keep my vote on GlowingBear for now (I'm most confident he is mafia) but I guess I could vote for raynpelikoneet if things keep going this way. Also, sorry Jockmcplop, realized I forgot to respond to you. I am sorry for being incorrect. For some reason I'm having trouble finding the posts in your filter. I take it the reason you ask is because you're scumreading Koshi too, so the same logic that it looks suspicious for GlowingBear should look suspicious for you too. That makes sense but I don't think it really applies to this case, since this is more of an emotional point. GlowingBear should be much more emotionally invested in his scumread of Koshi if he is town, and I would expect that to come out much more in his play.
OK. Thanks for responding. I don't like this argument, at least I can't go along with it, because someone's emotional investment in the game is something you get to know about each individual player and I don't really know GB at all. If I was sure you were town I would be more likely to take your word for it, but I'm not.
As for the other parts of your case:
1. Scumread Koshi for misconstruing GlowingBear's play. However, note the timing, he scumread Koshi well after this all started. Despite GlowingBear not having a townread on Koshi, he got mad at Koshi and treated Koshi like town and never questioned that he could be mafia until much later, when raynpelikoneet asks him about Koshi. This doesn't feel natural at all. Town tend to be quick to call their accusers scum, especially when they feel misrepresented and ignored and all the things GlowingBear was saying.
Point 1 does get my interest. Do you have quotes to back this up?
2. Shifting reads. His scumreads shift in priority in a way that doesn't make sense. First he says Jockmcplop is mafia, and Alakaslam second. Then he says Jockmcplop and Koshi are mafia, and raynpelikoneet or Alakaslam. Then he was making a case on raynpelikoneet to defend himself (huh?). Then most recently raynpelikoneet as top mafia. It doesn't feel like he is putting much thought into his scumreads.
Point 2 is actually the reason i was townreading GB to start with. I think he would have taken the opportunity to get a mislynch on me rather than just townreading me because I didn't vote. He's reacting to what is happening in the thread. I take it you think these reactions are not genuine looking. Is that because of bad reasoning or just a feeling you get?
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i think Slam is the only person aside from the people who were on Kurumi and GB can actually be mafia.
On May 03 2020 19:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I know some people are saying Jock is re-evaluating the game after the FF flip but i don't really see it. I honestly first thouhg Jock is town because why would he kill FF, his scumread (unless GB is mafia too -- but right now i don't expect that to be true). Just look at Jock's re-evaluation:
- First he says he needs to re-evaluate things because FF his scumread died
- He never evaluates GB, which is the first thing he should do
- The he says he need to reread Shockeyy because "a lot of alignments depend on Shockeyys" (i dont even understand why he thinks that because he never explains anything about it)
- But he doesn't really reread Shockeyy on any level, he just comes back with some random posts and says that Shockeyy is town because ??? and Koshi and Shockeyy are opposing alignments and because of a BAD post Shockeyy made on Koshi that could make him think Shockeyy actually could be mafia but without no investigation on that ever in the game he just ends up on Shockeyy being town again and Koshi being mafia.
- Basically he never re-evaluated anything and just ended up with whatever he had before the night kill. That's literally ALL his posts during D2 so basically he hasn't done anything lol...
ok 1: I wasn't on Kurumi or GB
2: I looked at FF's filter and went through his scumreads. Its possible to re-evaluate and end up in a similar place to before.
3: I have talked plenty about GB today.
4: Alot of alignments do depend on shockeyy. I think one of shockeyy/koshi is mafia mainly because I think koshi is mafia but if he's town shockeyy's push on him from the beginning of the game looks real bad. Also there's been a consistent push against shockeyy for most of the game so that's why figuring out his alignment is important.
5: I tried to re-evaluate the case against shockeyy to see if my townread was missing something and found that there wasn't a case against him at all. Hence I continued to townread him. I suppose you could just ignore that and replace it with ??? to make me look bad but that's kinda silly.
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On May 03 2020 19:12 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 06:56 Trfel wrote:On May 03 2020 06:41 Vivax wrote:On May 03 2020 06:19 Trfel wrote:On May 03 2020 05:41 Vivax wrote:On May 03 2020 05:37 Trfel wrote:I take it people were very underwhelmed by my post on GlowingBear Hard to think of something I'm not underwhelmed from. Which people btw. ##Vote rayn Just no one commented on it. Maybe I need to rewrite it. Voting raynpelikoneet if he doesn't play makes sense? Except for a lot of people aren't playing currently Yeah I'm sorry if I don't pay too much attention to your case right now. I'm also kinda triggered that today to me feels like a circlejerk between you and me. But if vets I'm used to like Koshi and rayn basically put 1% of the effort they did on D1, coupled with the FF kill, then odds are at least one of them is mafia. And I'm putting my money on rayn, also because of his voting shenanigans yesterday. Hm, that makes sense, fair enough. I'll keep my vote on GlowingBear for now (I'm most confident he is mafia) but I guess I could vote for raynpelikoneet if things keep going this way. Also, sorry Jockmcplop, realized I forgot to respond to you. I am sorry for being incorrect. For some reason I'm having trouble finding the posts in your filter. I take it the reason you ask is because you're scumreading Koshi too, so the same logic that it looks suspicious for GlowingBear should look suspicious for you too. That makes sense but I don't think it really applies to this case, since this is more of an emotional point. GlowingBear should be much more emotionally invested in his scumread of Koshi if he is town, and I would expect that to come out much more in his play. OK. Thanks for responding. I don't like this argument, at least I can't go along with it, because someone's emotional investment in the game is something you get to know about each individual player and I don't really know GB at all. If I was sure you were town I would be more likely to take your word for it, but I'm not. As for the other parts of your case: Show nested quote +1. Scumread Koshi for misconstruing GlowingBear's play. However, note the timing, he scumread Koshi well after this all started. Despite GlowingBear not having a townread on Koshi, he got mad at Koshi and treated Koshi like town and never questioned that he could be mafia until much later, when raynpelikoneet asks him about Koshi. This doesn't feel natural at all. Town tend to be quick to call their accusers scum, especially when they feel misrepresented and ignored and all the things GlowingBear was saying. Point 1 does get my interest. Do you have quotes to back this up? Show nested quote +2. Shifting reads. His scumreads shift in priority in a way that doesn't make sense. First he says Jockmcplop is mafia, and Alakaslam second. Then he says Jockmcplop and Koshi are mafia, and raynpelikoneet or Alakaslam. Then he was making a case on raynpelikoneet to defend himself (huh?). Then most recently raynpelikoneet as top mafia. It doesn't feel like he is putting much thought into his scumreads. Point 2 is actually the reason i was townreading GB to start with. I think he would have taken the opportunity to get a mislynch on me rather than just townreading me because I didn't vote. He's reacting to what is happening in the thread. I take it you think these reactions are not genuine looking. Is that because of bad reasoning or just a feeling you get?
This whole post is about GB rayn. I engaged trfel about his GB case because trfel was in the thread and scumreading GB. I'm actually in the middle of talking to trfel about it right now, you don't even have to leave the page to see it. I want trfel to go find the quotes to back up point 1 because it might effect my scumread on GB.
Or is this all an 'outright lie' too..
Rayn, ask yourself if you are still just tunnelling me. If you are there's no point in discussing this stuff because you won't change your mind no matter what evidence i put in front you.
If you're open to admitting that most of the stuff in your previous post was wrong, then that's fine.
Who have pushed shockeyy and why are there no posts in your filter in actually trying to figure out what that means? Or if there are please do point me out to them.
On May 03 2020 00:30 Jockmcplop wrote:So the people who voted shockeyy are slam, trfel and rayn. Rayn voted him because he didn't like shockeyy trying to lynch koshi, but rayn also backed down pretty quickly and went for people he was more strongly scumreading (some town points to rayn for this by the way). Slam's reason seems to be about a beef with shockeyy and the way shockeyy has called him mafia alot. I'm using a particular post slam made to me about it for reference as to slam's reasoning. Trfel seems like rayn, kind of not really bothered about lynching shockeyy: Show nested quote +On May 01 2020 02:50 Trfel wrote:
##unvote
##vote ShoCkeyy
Underwhelming filter. I like Vivax's (?) point about ShoCkeyy saying he voted Koshi only for a pressure vote, but also saying that Koshi's opening was a mafia opening. He's yet to give any other reasons to suspect Koshi. And more importantly, he's just saying recently "I like GlowingBear more than Koshi" while voting for Alakaslam, while GlowingBear is leading the lynch and Koshi or Alakaslam aren't really in contention.
Not sold on it but maybe it'll work? Possibly just seeing what would happen with the wagon if he voted there. His point about saying he voted koshi for a pressure vote and also saying koshi's opening was mafia is the only thing i agree looks bad here. I disagree with drawing conclusions from how shockeyy was voting slam while GB was up for lynch. I don't think that looks bad on shockeyy and he never showed interest in particularly trying to save GB, but was voting for a scumread. I still think shockeyy is town here. I just can't see any case for him being mafia except his early thing with the read on koshi, and that's nowhere near enough to scumread him when his reads have been consistent, and consistent with his voting also.
I thin you're town and i think you're tunnelled. The stuff you say i haven't posted i have actually posted you are just blind to it because you think i'm scum. This is such a townie rayn trait that there's no way i can do anything but townread you for it. If you're going to keep tunnelling like this i'm going to stop responding because unless you are willing listen to what i'm saying and read my filter with an open mind there's no point in me talking to you.
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##vote: alakaslam
Its between slam and koshi. I think on balance slam is slightly more likely to flip red. I just can't see any game solving and there's a lot of showing off with very little substance.
Rayn why are you townreading koshi? His EoD 1 still looks really bad to me, and his unconditional TR of FF looks worse.
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On May 03 2020 19:59 Vivax wrote:
##Unvote
Jock who do you want to lynch?
What is this entire conversation about? Do you want to find mafia?
My PoE currently:
Slam
Koshi
Chezinu
Trfel
Vivax
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On May 03 2020 20:08 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 20:01 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 03 2020 19:59 Vivax wrote:
##Unvote
Jock who do you want to lynch?
What is this entire conversation about? Do you want to find mafia? My PoE currently: Slam Koshi Chezinu Trfel Vivax I'm in your PoE? Trfel?
Yep. I think you've been pretty scummy except for your meta which makes me doubt my read on you. I really hate the push against rayn, and shockeyy for that matter. I can't just ignore that stuff because you are posting enough to be town vivax.
Trfel is basically a null read which puts him in my PoE. I have alot of townreads and people i won't lynch this game. Trfel never did anything to make me think he's town. He's making cases but they are all kind of weak. Doesn't make him mafia, but stops me from townreading him.
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EPT
