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On November 07 2016 09:32 Rels wrote:
I don't have a lot of reasons to scumread Foreman. But I have reasons to townread everyone else to varying degrees (or in DF case, I don't think he can be Skynx partner) and my tone read of Foreman at the beginning of the game doesn't hold up to the amount of nothing he's doing right now.
The only thing that is maybe scummy is that he had only weak interactions with Skynx at some points, but there is a lot of Skynx talk in his filter: he voted him, and he had several posts that either talked about him, or talked about people read of Skynx. Can't remember who posted that first but I read something about it when catching up and it's true.
Might be a partner tell but it's quite weak.
It's not that bad.
Also, notice how Skynx decides he is going to case Foreman now that he's been completely AFK? It's almost as if he wants to be part of the wagon to bus if Foreman is scum.
Why Calix now?
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Now regarding Calix. I think she's town. If I'm wrong on Foreman though I think she could be scum. First because I townread TT and NU more than her and I don't think DF is partner with Skynx. And second because I didn't like the feeling from two of her posts. To explain, I felt like she was trying to set up things in the future without being too obvious about it.
In spoiler the posts that inspired me this feeling:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 05 2016 02:55 Calix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 02:54 ExO_ wrote:
If there is one thing you do please listen to me:
You need to figure out the scum out of Rels/TT/NU
They are going to try to push suspicion on to people like skynx here. Do not let them. I'm speaking to all of you town, figure out which one of them is scum and lynch them These kinds of posts are making me think ExO is town. Fuck. I'll just say that if you are town then I'll keep this in mind. This is the one that made me think that in the first place. On November 05 2016 03:40 Calix wrote:Alright, finished looking through ExO's filter. He was a bit frazzled at EOD and his reads shifted quite rapidly (understandable) so it's hard for me to pin down the finer details of his reads but it's obvious that he hard town-read Calix/ Skynx, town-reads Foreman and thinks 1-2 scum are among TT/ Rels/ NU at the very least. I've copied some quotes of his. I'd like some comments on them  + Show Spoiler [TT VT claim] +On November 04 2016 05:58 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:55 Calix wrote:On November 04 2016 05:53 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 05:49 Calix wrote:On November 04 2016 05:44 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 05:41 Calix wrote:
Foreman, can you give your thoughts on Skynx' wall-posts?
As for ExO, I missed #600. I'm not sure I agree. He says "I think ExO is scum but if he isn't then he's only a VT and is useless so he can die"
He thinks you're scum, ergo you're lying about being VT. All he does is rule out the possibility of you being TPR. I don't see inconsistency here. Or I'm lying about being VT to get scum to not mess with me on day 1. However look at the way he posts. He knows I'm only VT. You need to learn to read between the lines. Mafia are never going to come into the thread and announce they are mafia How would scum!TT know that you, the town!ExO, is telling the truth and that you're not a TPR exactly? I don't follow the "he knows I'm only VT" part. He wouldn't. However, he would had no problem killing me if he's scum (especially if he's scum and suspect I'm a power role). Does this make sense to you or do I need to break it down entirely? ELI5 I'm running into a problem that is rare for me - I have way too many town-reads. Needless to say, I'm having a hard time here. Scum TT knows who his scum buddy is, and who is town. He sees I claim VT. He knows that by killing me he'll either kill a VT (in which case he can claim "he was being worthless for town and it was good to get him out now, blah blah blah), or he'll kill a town power role and again blame it on my play. He claims that I'm either scum or VT. This is a call that nobody who is town will make. Because if a town player believes my VT claim then I cannot be scum. However if a town player doubts my VT claim then I might be power role and they might not wanna lynch me. The only people who would want to lynch me right now for the logic TT is presenting, are scum. This might become a valid argument now that we know that ExO was town. + Show Spoiler [Foreman town-read] +On November 04 2016 07:42 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 07:36 Rels wrote:
ExO, the only thing that keeps me from tunneling you into oblivion is your explanation of the VT thing. Please answer me about why your foreman read changed without reason between now and yesterday because if I was scum and foreman, I wouldn't be half-assing it like he is. I check to make sure what I'm posting lines up with everything else posted so far. If he's scum and not reading something he's directly posting about then it's poor scum play imo. The tone of his posts comes across as lazy half-assing towny rather than scummy to me (here for future reference) + Show Spoiler [Foreman 'intimidation' point] +On November 04 2016 09:06 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 09:04 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:59 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 08:58 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:55 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 08:53 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:51 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 08:48 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:42 ExO_ wrote:
NU is actively borrowing his reads for rels in an attempt to push me, with Marhgwell being 3rd on a wagon.
Marhgwell is scum, and probably NU I disagree with both of your scumreads. Mahrgell's flip on me looked like an honest reassessment. If he was scum, he could have accused me of AtE and used my reach out as grounds to double down on me. NU... I don't get why you think he's scum. What do you think of Mahgrell voting me without giving his reasoning just now? What about NU literally taking the words out of rels mouth as a reason to push me, even though rels didn't see it as a reason to scum read me. foreman read the damn thread. And do something to help town. What did this post accomplish here? What did you disagreeing with me (in a bad way) accomplish? N O T H I N G My bad, let me be more productive, then. ##Vote: ExO_ for what reason? Why do you think I'm scum? You're flat out lying about me and attempting to intimidate me, for one thing. For another, your scumreads are trash and consist of two people pushing you. Because y'know, the entire scum team is going to throw everything they have into a d1 mislynch. how exactly am I lying about you? or attempting to intimidate you? Aren't you supposed to be mr.coldnotaffectedbyonlinepersonalities guy No, I'm Mr. Distantandunintentionallytreatpeoplelikepixelsuntiligettoknowthem guy. You are lying about me doing nothing in my disagreement with you. Before you say you weren't, be a pal and quote where i stated my thoughts on Mahrgell's flip prior to that post. Otherwise, admit that you were simply trying to intimidate me into thinking I was being worthless. ...what? are you delusional? Like legitimately are you delusional? Nothing I've done has been even close to intimidation. And nothing I've done has even been close to lying. You're literally bordering on actually being delusional While ExO town-read him, I think this post is interesting because it's an example of Foreman being hyperbolic with poor reasoning. + Show Spoiler [TT read progression read] +On November 04 2016 14:36 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 14:30 Tictock wrote:On November 04 2016 06:11 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 06:09 Tictock wrote:On November 04 2016 06:01 Calix wrote:
But how hard is it to just say something like "oh I was joking" or "I wanted to play the game properly" or something? Maybe I'm just assuming that ExO is as amazingly intelligent as I am, but that doesn't seem like a stretch for scum.
His later behaviour is more concerning to me. I don't really like it and the point which I found the most interesting from him is something that you claim was a joke. (I think) Thats actually kinda my point, town!Exo could have said the same things, or started posting gifs to joke around. What did we see? Him getting butthurt that you called him out for not posting Gifs and attacking you for it. Starting a discussion is EXACTLY what town wants to do. And its exactly what I did. Implying that I wouldn't do that is town is at best misleading. What I did drew a lot of attention to me, you really think thats what I would do as scum? Instead of posting a few gifs and joking around a bit? please. Lynch TT its so obvious at this point Cute... but you really never did anything with that now did you? On November 03 2016 15:11 ExO_ wrote:
I'm tired. I just got home. I don't feel like reading through the read. But I'll tell you my thoughts in a nutshell from the point I left.
I jumped on to Calix initially and continued to pressure him(her?) long after I thought she was scum. I do think the way he entered the thread was dumb and likely to inflame me. But his responses afterwards seemed very much from a towny perspective. I continued the pressure to see who would jump on the bandwagon with me in an attempt to press low hanging fruit.
I'll look at it tomorrow, but NeverUnlucky/foreman are both going to be the first people I look at. Your follow up to this was voting me kus you liked Skynx's case and think he is a cool guy. Now it seems like you've forgotten you even scumread me. On November 04 2016 08:42 ExO_ wrote:
NU is actively borrowing his reads for rels in an attempt to push me, with Marhgwell being 3rd on a wagon.
Marhgwell is scum, and probably NU And apparently everyone who is voting you is also scum, so your reads are just OMGUS. On November 04 2016 09:16 ExO_ wrote:
Darthfoley/Skynk have the shortest filters and might be good places to look as well. Going off filter length NU/Calix shouldn't be scum because they are so far and above everyone else. I'd find it hard to be posting that much as scum Which is now effectively half the game being thrown in for good measure. I guess Skynx is also not a cool guy anymore either. you are cherry picking my filter, without following any of the progression of it. Why? I think you are trying to tilt me. It's not going to work On November 05 2016 02:48 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 02:47 Calix wrote:On November 05 2016 02:45 ExO_ wrote:
Okay I'm back home I'm going to try to type things out as fast as I can.
CALIX listen to me. Skynx is town. There is no way he comes in and town reads me at EoD as scum. It's too risky. You two need to lead the town here While I can conclude that the white-knighting accusations would draw attention to him because he is black-sheeping, surely that can be dismissed with WIFOM, no? If you are town then it's similar to what he did last game with Lunatic. Do you have any other reasons to town-read him? I don't think it's like what he did with lunatic. Not on Day 1. Not like this. And I don't think he'd make the same play back to back like that. It's not smart. Also he wasn't the first person to really start pushing that luna might be town. Here he comes in at the very end saying I might be town. Its too risky as scum. He is not scum, do NOT let the others convince you he is On November 05 2016 02:53 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 02:50 Calix wrote:On November 05 2016 02:47 ExO_ wrote:
Calix/Skynx any questions you have please ask me, before I flip as town please ask now. I will try my best to answer quickly. I'm 100% sure you two are town and the people like NU trying to discredit Skynx are almost certainly going to be scum Yeah, can you please summarise/ conclude your reads in one post? I think that would help people see what your reads were. You can even just cobble your previous posts into one since you have 10 minutes left. This is something I'm not very good at. a lot of my reads I base on what I think, and researching specific examples is hard. I think out of TT/Rels/NU there is at least 1 scum. Maybe 2. TT or rels should have known better than to let this lynch go down like it did, and instead both pushed it hard. I would look at them heavily. NU's game has just been really bad all around, hard to say if its because he's bad or because he's scum though. I didn't like the way mahgrell played, and the way he's afk now but I think he's something to look at after the top 3. DF is townier than mahgrell. Foreman is angry town (last two quotes here for future reference) Here I thought that looked like a beginning of push on TT, with justification from a dead player filter. And after that she pushed TT.
Voilà. The way she pushed TT during the night is weird to me, I had the feeling while I was catching up that she was preparing her TT push even during EOD, and that it was too clean to be town; starting with quoting the soon-to-be-lynched- ExO during EOD, then quoting his posts during the night, then beginning the push. I actually thought I had caught her with these two posts during my catching up.
But then TT responded and she began to townread him. And that was townie; why would she prepare such a good execution for her push during the night, then letting it all go after a few TT posts ? So I don't really believe she's scum anymore.
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And yeah NU and TT are almost lock town in my mind.
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Alright going to sleep, see you tomorrow mates (=
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Wow, those two quotes are great. Especially the first one. You could also bold "This might become a valid argument now that we know that ExO was town." I found that scummy when I read that at the time. An argument does not become valid if the flipped player is town. It's like she ignored ExO's arguments until he flipped.
I had flagged some of her posts during day 1 that made me think she was scum due to her wording.
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On November 07 2016 07:43 Skynx wrote:
3) meta cuz I just left a scumgame with exo as partner and it was totally different.
Why is this the first time you are mentioning this?
I would expect that kind of experience to be really enlightening with your read on Exo, and would mean you actually have some things that stand out to you about his play. When I skim your filter though I can't really find any insight in your mentions of Exo, just that he is somehow clearly town to you.
I'm also not terribly impressed with your case on NU. Most of the things you are calling him out for are things that you yourself have done this game, like trolling. Dropping votes with little reason is also not really very AI when you are pulling them out of context like you are doing. Town make weird votes and change them more often than scum tend to.
Also, this...
Key thing here is reason and logic. I hate hate players who defy all logic (*cough* Moosy *cough*) and love players who take it as a pillar of townplay (aka Koshi).
scares the hell out of me.
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Vote Count
Foreman (4) : NeverUnlucky, Calix, Tictock, darthfoley
Skynx (1) : darthfoley (X), Rels
Rels (0) : Calix (X)
Not voting (2) : Foreman, Skynx
Currently, Foreman is set to be lynched!
The day phase will end at Monday, Nov 07 5:59pm GMT (GMT+00:00), about 12 hours from this post.
remain as you are reading this.
Remember, voting is mandatory! Place your votes in this thread.
If you see any vote out of place, scream your head off.
Reminder: Daylight Saving Time The deadline is in UTC/GMT, which does not account for daylight saving time. The game will keep ticking at 48+24 hour cycles. If you are in a timezone where daylight saving time has just ended Sun 6 Nov, the transition back to standard time will have moved the deadline by one hour on your local clock. Pay close attention!
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On November 07 2016 08:58 NeverUnlucky wrote:
Will Foreman get modkilled if he does not post in the next 3 hours? His last post was posted 45h ago.
If so, we might want to switch wagon. But we're in LyLo if Foreman is town.
Stop trying to use the host as a function of the game, for fuck's sake.
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Skynx's #1260 reminds me of Koshi's posting in LYLO. Just made giant wall-posts against BM with one-liner responses to most of the posts in his filter (although most of them don't actually show scum motivation???) and even the conclusion to the post sucks.
Also he's ignoring the fact that people have already given town tells for NU.
But what does it for me is that Skynx walks in, doesn't try reconsidering his read on NU at all, is claiming that NU has not made a single townie post in his filter (this is inaccurate) and is trying to throw doubt in the town circle. That's pushing a mafia agenda. I would be willing to switch to him now given that I'm not seeing town motivation in anything he's said. In fact, I'm going to do just that:
##vote Skynx
Also I didn't like some of Rels' posts. But I'm starting to think that he's just shit instead of scummy.
On November 07 2016 09:32 Rels wrote:
I don't have a lot of reasons to scumread Foreman. But I have reasons to townread everyone else to varying degrees (or in DF case, I don't think he can be Skynx partner) and my tone read of Foreman at the beginning of the game doesn't hold up to the amount of nothing he's doing right now.
The only thing that is maybe scummy is that he had only weak interactions with Skynx at some points, but there is a lot of Skynx talk in his filter: he voted him, and he had several posts that either talked about him, or talked about people read of Skynx. Can't remember who posted that first but I read something about it when catching up and it's true.
Might be a partner tell but it's quite weak.
Did you not read my damning post on Foreman's AWFUL read progression with regards to ExO??? And he switched to ExO after 'pushing' on Skynx so if Skynx is scum then that looks even worse. I can see him trying to distance from Skynx before switching votes before Skynx could actually be at risk of getting lynched.
+ Show Spoiler +(By the way, DF was the dude who talked about Skynx/ Foreman interactions)
Secondly, this 'case' against me (for lack of a better word) is absolute shite.
On November 07 2016 09:51 Rels wrote:Now regarding Calix. I think she's town. If I'm wrong on Foreman though I think she could be scum. First because I townread TT and NU more than her and I don't think DF is partner with Skynx. And second because I didn't like the feeling from two of her posts. To explain, I felt like she was trying to set up things in the future without being too obvious about it. In spoiler the posts that inspired me this feeling: + Show Spoiler +On November 05 2016 02:55 Calix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 02:54 ExO_ wrote:
If there is one thing you do please listen to me:
You need to figure out the scum out of Rels/TT/NU
They are going to try to push suspicion on to people like skynx here. Do not let them. I'm speaking to all of you town, figure out which one of them is scum and lynch them These kinds of posts are making me think ExO is town. Fuck. I'll just say that if you are town then I'll keep this in mind. This is the one that made me think that in the first place. On November 05 2016 03:40 Calix wrote:Alright, finished looking through ExO's filter. He was a bit frazzled at EOD and his reads shifted quite rapidly (understandable) so it's hard for me to pin down the finer details of his reads but it's obvious that he hard town-read Calix/ Skynx, town-reads Foreman and thinks 1-2 scum are among TT/ Rels/ NU at the very least. I've copied some quotes of his. I'd like some comments on them + Show Spoiler [TT VT claim] +On November 04 2016 05:58 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:55 Calix wrote:On November 04 2016 05:53 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 05:49 Calix wrote:On November 04 2016 05:44 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 05:41 Calix wrote:
Foreman, can you give your thoughts on Skynx' wall-posts?
As for ExO, I missed #600. I'm not sure I agree. He says "I think ExO is scum but if he isn't then he's only a VT and is useless so he can die"
He thinks you're scum, ergo you're lying about being VT. All he does is rule out the possibility of you being TPR. I don't see inconsistency here. Or I'm lying about being VT to get scum to not mess with me on day 1. However look at the way he posts. He knows I'm only VT. You need to learn to read between the lines. Mafia are never going to come into the thread and announce they are mafia How would scum!TT know that you, the town!ExO, is telling the truth and that you're not a TPR exactly? I don't follow the "he knows I'm only VT" part. He wouldn't. However, he would had no problem killing me if he's scum (especially if he's scum and suspect I'm a power role). Does this make sense to you or do I need to break it down entirely? ELI5 I'm running into a problem that is rare for me - I have way too many town-reads. Needless to say, I'm having a hard time here. Scum TT knows who his scum buddy is, and who is town. He sees I claim VT. He knows that by killing me he'll either kill a VT (in which case he can claim "he was being worthless for town and it was good to get him out now, blah blah blah), or he'll kill a town power role and again blame it on my play. He claims that I'm either scum or VT. This is a call that nobody who is town will make. Because if a town player believes my VT claim then I cannot be scum. However if a town player doubts my VT claim then I might be power role and they might not wanna lynch me. The only people who would want to lynch me right now for the logic TT is presenting, are scum. This might become a valid argument now that we know that ExO was town. + Show Spoiler [Foreman town-read] +On November 04 2016 07:42 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 07:36 Rels wrote:
ExO, the only thing that keeps me from tunneling you into oblivion is your explanation of the VT thing. Please answer me about why your foreman read changed without reason between now and yesterday because if I was scum and foreman, I wouldn't be half-assing it like he is. I check to make sure what I'm posting lines up with everything else posted so far. If he's scum and not reading something he's directly posting about then it's poor scum play imo. The tone of his posts comes across as lazy half-assing towny rather than scummy to me (here for future reference) + Show Spoiler [Foreman 'intimidation' point] +On November 04 2016 09:06 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 09:04 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:59 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 08:58 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:55 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 08:53 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:51 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 08:48 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:42 ExO_ wrote:
NU is actively borrowing his reads for rels in an attempt to push me, with Marhgwell being 3rd on a wagon.
Marhgwell is scum, and probably NU I disagree with both of your scumreads. Mahrgell's flip on me looked like an honest reassessment. If he was scum, he could have accused me of AtE and used my reach out as grounds to double down on me. NU... I don't get why you think he's scum. What do you think of Mahgrell voting me without giving his reasoning just now? What about NU literally taking the words out of rels mouth as a reason to push me, even though rels didn't see it as a reason to scum read me. foreman read the damn thread. And do something to help town. What did this post accomplish here? What did you disagreeing with me (in a bad way) accomplish? N O T H I N G My bad, let me be more productive, then. ##Vote: ExO_ for what reason? Why do you think I'm scum? You're flat out lying about me and attempting to intimidate me, for one thing. For another, your scumreads are trash and consist of two people pushing you. Because y'know, the entire scum team is going to throw everything they have into a d1 mislynch. how exactly am I lying about you? or attempting to intimidate you? Aren't you supposed to be mr.coldnotaffectedbyonlinepersonalities guy No, I'm Mr. Distantandunintentionallytreatpeoplelikepixelsuntiligettoknowthem guy. You are lying about me doing nothing in my disagreement with you. Before you say you weren't, be a pal and quote where i stated my thoughts on Mahrgell's flip prior to that post. Otherwise, admit that you were simply trying to intimidate me into thinking I was being worthless. ...what? are you delusional? Like legitimately are you delusional? Nothing I've done has been even close to intimidation. And nothing I've done has even been close to lying. You're literally bordering on actually being delusional While ExO town-read him, I think this post is interesting because it's an example of Foreman being hyperbolic with poor reasoning. + Show Spoiler [TT read progression read] +On November 04 2016 14:36 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 14:30 Tictock wrote:On November 04 2016 06:11 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 06:09 Tictock wrote:On November 04 2016 06:01 Calix wrote:
But how hard is it to just say something like "oh I was joking" or "I wanted to play the game properly" or something? Maybe I'm just assuming that ExO is as amazingly intelligent as I am, but that doesn't seem like a stretch for scum.
His later behaviour is more concerning to me. I don't really like it and the point which I found the most interesting from him is something that you claim was a joke. (I think) Thats actually kinda my point, town!Exo could have said the same things, or started posting gifs to joke around. What did we see? Him getting butthurt that you called him out for not posting Gifs and attacking you for it. Starting a discussion is EXACTLY what town wants to do. And its exactly what I did. Implying that I wouldn't do that is town is at best misleading. What I did drew a lot of attention to me, you really think thats what I would do as scum? Instead of posting a few gifs and joking around a bit? please. Lynch TT its so obvious at this point Cute... but you really never did anything with that now did you? On November 03 2016 15:11 ExO_ wrote:
I'm tired. I just got home. I don't feel like reading through the read. But I'll tell you my thoughts in a nutshell from the point I left.
I jumped on to Calix initially and continued to pressure him(her?) long after I thought she was scum. I do think the way he entered the thread was dumb and likely to inflame me. But his responses afterwards seemed very much from a towny perspective. I continued the pressure to see who would jump on the bandwagon with me in an attempt to press low hanging fruit.
I'll look at it tomorrow, but NeverUnlucky/foreman are both going to be the first people I look at. Your follow up to this was voting me kus you liked Skynx's case and think he is a cool guy. Now it seems like you've forgotten you even scumread me. On November 04 2016 08:42 ExO_ wrote:
NU is actively borrowing his reads for rels in an attempt to push me, with Marhgwell being 3rd on a wagon.
Marhgwell is scum, and probably NU And apparently everyone who is voting you is also scum, so your reads are just OMGUS. On November 04 2016 09:16 ExO_ wrote:
Darthfoley/Skynk have the shortest filters and might be good places to look as well. Going off filter length NU/Calix shouldn't be scum because they are so far and above everyone else. I'd find it hard to be posting that much as scum Which is now effectively half the game being thrown in for good measure. I guess Skynx is also not a cool guy anymore either. you are cherry picking my filter, without following any of the progression of it. Why? I think you are trying to tilt me. It's not going to work On November 05 2016 02:48 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 02:47 Calix wrote:On November 05 2016 02:45 ExO_ wrote:
Okay I'm back home I'm going to try to type things out as fast as I can.
CALIX listen to me. Skynx is town. There is no way he comes in and town reads me at EoD as scum. It's too risky. You two need to lead the town here While I can conclude that the white-knighting accusations would draw attention to him because he is black-sheeping, surely that can be dismissed with WIFOM, no? If you are town then it's similar to what he did last game with Lunatic. Do you have any other reasons to town-read him? I don't think it's like what he did with lunatic. Not on Day 1. Not like this. And I don't think he'd make the same play back to back like that. It's not smart. Also he wasn't the first person to really start pushing that luna might be town. Here he comes in at the very end saying I might be town. Its too risky as scum. He is not scum, do NOT let the others convince you he is On November 05 2016 02:53 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 02:50 Calix wrote:On November 05 2016 02:47 ExO_ wrote:
Calix/Skynx any questions you have please ask me, before I flip as town please ask now. I will try my best to answer quickly. I'm 100% sure you two are town and the people like NU trying to discredit Skynx are almost certainly going to be scum Yeah, can you please summarise/ conclude your reads in one post? I think that would help people see what your reads were. You can even just cobble your previous posts into one since you have 10 minutes left. This is something I'm not very good at. a lot of my reads I base on what I think, and researching specific examples is hard. I think out of TT/Rels/NU there is at least 1 scum. Maybe 2. TT or rels should have known better than to let this lynch go down like it did, and instead both pushed it hard. I would look at them heavily. NU's game has just been really bad all around, hard to say if its because he's bad or because he's scum though. I didn't like the way mahgrell played, and the way he's afk now but I think he's something to look at after the top 3. DF is townier than mahgrell. Foreman is angry town (last two quotes here for future reference) Here I thought that looked like a beginning of push on TT, with justification from a dead player filter. And after that she pushed TT. Voilà. The way she pushed TT during the night is weird to me, I had the feeling while I was catching up that she was preparing her TT push even during EOD, and that it was too clean to be town; starting with quoting the soon-to-be-lynched- ExO during EOD, then quoting his posts during the night, then beginning the push. I actually thought I had caught her with these two posts during my catching up. But then TT responded and she began to townread him. And that was townie; why would she prepare such a good execution for her push during the night, then letting it all go after a few TT posts ? So I don't really believe she's scum anymore.
USING THE POSTS OF A LYNCHED PLAYER TO INFORM YOUR READS IS PRO-TOWN, LOL. How on Earth does anyone think that's scummy?
That's literally what people should be doing after a mislynch since a) you know that they were being honest with their arguments and thus you can assess them without being paranoid, b) you can see (to an extent) how people treated the MLed player and see if anyone's behaviour (hint, Foreman, hint) doesn't make much sense and c) helps you to re-evaluate which is something that I've been trying to work on for the entire fucking game.
I stopped pushing TT given that a) he was correct that my point against him was strained and b) that was around the time I checked up on his scum meta and realised it didn't match up with his play this game, therefore I concluded that he just sucks.
Secondly, that whole "trying to set things up without looking like she's doing that" point is something I said about you first. Why do you continue to ignore my points against you? I'd expect a bit of paranoia about "Calix is trying to get a ML on me" given that I pushed you AFTER TT. Instead you completely ignore the fact that I cased you at all. You didn't acknowledge my vote on you on D1, preferring to say "lol do you have a reason to scum-read me outside of activity?" (when nobody had mentioned your activity???) and there is zero concern over the fact that I made an actual fucking case on you N1...or the fact that I keep voting for you.
Why didn't you respond to that first thing? Why wasn't that a factor that made you 'concerned' about me?
(thirdly, I've been extremely townie the entire game and the only reason that people are still paranoid is because of my last scum game even though I'm acting completely differently, wtf)
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On November 07 2016 17:23 Calix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 09:32 Rels wrote:
I don't have a lot of reasons to scumread Foreman. But I have reasons to townread everyone else to varying degrees (or in DF case, I don't think he can be Skynx partner) and my tone read of Foreman at the beginning of the game doesn't hold up to the amount of nothing he's doing right now.
The only thing that is maybe scummy is that he had only weak interactions with Skynx at some points, but there is a lot of Skynx talk in his filter: he voted him, and he had several posts that either talked about him, or talked about people read of Skynx. Can't remember who posted that first but I read something about it when catching up and it's true.
Might be a partner tell but it's quite weak. Did you not read my damning post on Foreman's AWFUL read progression with regards to ExO??? And he switched to ExO after 'pushing' on Skynx so if Skynx is scum then that looks even worse. I can see him trying to distance from Skynx before switching votes before Skynx could actually be at risk of getting lynched. + Show Spoiler +(By the way, DF was the dude who talked about Skynx/ Foreman interactions)
I don't think his read progression on exo was awful. Let me find your post.
OK I disagree that his reasonning was awful, when he's saying ExO is scumreading anyone that dares scumreading him he's right. But the part where he goes "You're flat out lying about me and attempting to intimidate me, for one thing." is pretty weird that's true.
On November 07 2016 17:23 Calix wrote:Secondly, this 'case' against me (for lack of a better word) is absolute shite. Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 09:51 Rels wrote:Now regarding Calix. I think she's town. If I'm wrong on Foreman though I think she could be scum. First because I townread TT and NU more than her and I don't think DF is partner with Skynx. And second because I didn't like the feeling from two of her posts. To explain, I felt like she was trying to set up things in the future without being too obvious about it. In spoiler the posts that inspired me this feeling: + Show Spoiler +On November 05 2016 02:55 Calix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 02:54 ExO_ wrote:
If there is one thing you do please listen to me:
You need to figure out the scum out of Rels/TT/NU
They are going to try to push suspicion on to people like skynx here. Do not let them. I'm speaking to all of you town, figure out which one of them is scum and lynch them These kinds of posts are making me think ExO is town. Fuck. I'll just say that if you are town then I'll keep this in mind. This is the one that made me think that in the first place. On November 05 2016 03:40 Calix wrote:Alright, finished looking through ExO's filter. He was a bit frazzled at EOD and his reads shifted quite rapidly (understandable) so it's hard for me to pin down the finer details of his reads but it's obvious that he hard town-read Calix/ Skynx, town-reads Foreman and thinks 1-2 scum are among TT/ Rels/ NU at the very least. I've copied some quotes of his. I'd like some comments on them + Show Spoiler [TT VT claim] +On November 04 2016 05:58 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:55 Calix wrote:On November 04 2016 05:53 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 05:49 Calix wrote:On November 04 2016 05:44 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 05:41 Calix wrote:
Foreman, can you give your thoughts on Skynx' wall-posts?
As for ExO, I missed #600. I'm not sure I agree. He says "I think ExO is scum but if he isn't then he's only a VT and is useless so he can die"
He thinks you're scum, ergo you're lying about being VT. All he does is rule out the possibility of you being TPR. I don't see inconsistency here. Or I'm lying about being VT to get scum to not mess with me on day 1. However look at the way he posts. He knows I'm only VT. You need to learn to read between the lines. Mafia are never going to come into the thread and announce they are mafia How would scum!TT know that you, the town!ExO, is telling the truth and that you're not a TPR exactly? I don't follow the "he knows I'm only VT" part. He wouldn't. However, he would had no problem killing me if he's scum (especially if he's scum and suspect I'm a power role). Does this make sense to you or do I need to break it down entirely? ELI5 I'm running into a problem that is rare for me - I have way too many town-reads. Needless to say, I'm having a hard time here. Scum TT knows who his scum buddy is, and who is town. He sees I claim VT. He knows that by killing me he'll either kill a VT (in which case he can claim "he was being worthless for town and it was good to get him out now, blah blah blah), or he'll kill a town power role and again blame it on my play. He claims that I'm either scum or VT. This is a call that nobody who is town will make. Because if a town player believes my VT claim then I cannot be scum. However if a town player doubts my VT claim then I might be power role and they might not wanna lynch me. The only people who would want to lynch me right now for the logic TT is presenting, are scum. This might become a valid argument now that we know that ExO was town. + Show Spoiler [Foreman town-read] +On November 04 2016 07:42 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 07:36 Rels wrote:
ExO, the only thing that keeps me from tunneling you into oblivion is your explanation of the VT thing. Please answer me about why your foreman read changed without reason between now and yesterday because if I was scum and foreman, I wouldn't be half-assing it like he is. I check to make sure what I'm posting lines up with everything else posted so far. If he's scum and not reading something he's directly posting about then it's poor scum play imo. The tone of his posts comes across as lazy half-assing towny rather than scummy to me (here for future reference) + Show Spoiler [Foreman 'intimidation' point] +On November 04 2016 09:06 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 09:04 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:59 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 08:58 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:55 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 08:53 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:51 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 08:48 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:42 ExO_ wrote:
NU is actively borrowing his reads for rels in an attempt to push me, with Marhgwell being 3rd on a wagon.
Marhgwell is scum, and probably NU I disagree with both of your scumreads. Mahrgell's flip on me looked like an honest reassessment. If he was scum, he could have accused me of AtE and used my reach out as grounds to double down on me. NU... I don't get why you think he's scum. What do you think of Mahgrell voting me without giving his reasoning just now? What about NU literally taking the words out of rels mouth as a reason to push me, even though rels didn't see it as a reason to scum read me. foreman read the damn thread. And do something to help town. What did this post accomplish here? What did you disagreeing with me (in a bad way) accomplish? N O T H I N G My bad, let me be more productive, then. ##Vote: ExO_ for what reason? Why do you think I'm scum? You're flat out lying about me and attempting to intimidate me, for one thing. For another, your scumreads are trash and consist of two people pushing you. Because y'know, the entire scum team is going to throw everything they have into a d1 mislynch. how exactly am I lying about you? or attempting to intimidate you? Aren't you supposed to be mr.coldnotaffectedbyonlinepersonalities guy No, I'm Mr. Distantandunintentionallytreatpeoplelikepixelsuntiligettoknowthem guy. You are lying about me doing nothing in my disagreement with you. Before you say you weren't, be a pal and quote where i stated my thoughts on Mahrgell's flip prior to that post. Otherwise, admit that you were simply trying to intimidate me into thinking I was being worthless. ...what? are you delusional? Like legitimately are you delusional? Nothing I've done has been even close to intimidation. And nothing I've done has even been close to lying. You're literally bordering on actually being delusional While ExO town-read him, I think this post is interesting because it's an example of Foreman being hyperbolic with poor reasoning. + Show Spoiler [TT read progression read] +On November 04 2016 14:36 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 14:30 Tictock wrote:On November 04 2016 06:11 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 06:09 Tictock wrote:On November 04 2016 06:01 Calix wrote:
But how hard is it to just say something like "oh I was joking" or "I wanted to play the game properly" or something? Maybe I'm just assuming that ExO is as amazingly intelligent as I am, but that doesn't seem like a stretch for scum.
His later behaviour is more concerning to me. I don't really like it and the point which I found the most interesting from him is something that you claim was a joke. (I think) Thats actually kinda my point, town!Exo could have said the same things, or started posting gifs to joke around. What did we see? Him getting butthurt that you called him out for not posting Gifs and attacking you for it. Starting a discussion is EXACTLY what town wants to do. And its exactly what I did. Implying that I wouldn't do that is town is at best misleading. What I did drew a lot of attention to me, you really think thats what I would do as scum? Instead of posting a few gifs and joking around a bit? please. Lynch TT its so obvious at this point Cute... but you really never did anything with that now did you? On November 03 2016 15:11 ExO_ wrote:
I'm tired. I just got home. I don't feel like reading through the read. But I'll tell you my thoughts in a nutshell from the point I left.
I jumped on to Calix initially and continued to pressure him(her?) long after I thought she was scum. I do think the way he entered the thread was dumb and likely to inflame me. But his responses afterwards seemed very much from a towny perspective. I continued the pressure to see who would jump on the bandwagon with me in an attempt to press low hanging fruit.
I'll look at it tomorrow, but NeverUnlucky/foreman are both going to be the first people I look at. Your follow up to this was voting me kus you liked Skynx's case and think he is a cool guy. Now it seems like you've forgotten you even scumread me. On November 04 2016 08:42 ExO_ wrote:
NU is actively borrowing his reads for rels in an attempt to push me, with Marhgwell being 3rd on a wagon.
Marhgwell is scum, and probably NU And apparently everyone who is voting you is also scum, so your reads are just OMGUS. On November 04 2016 09:16 ExO_ wrote:
Darthfoley/Skynk have the shortest filters and might be good places to look as well. Going off filter length NU/Calix shouldn't be scum because they are so far and above everyone else. I'd find it hard to be posting that much as scum Which is now effectively half the game being thrown in for good measure. I guess Skynx is also not a cool guy anymore either. you are cherry picking my filter, without following any of the progression of it. Why? I think you are trying to tilt me. It's not going to work On November 05 2016 02:48 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 02:47 Calix wrote:On November 05 2016 02:45 ExO_ wrote:
Okay I'm back home I'm going to try to type things out as fast as I can.
CALIX listen to me. Skynx is town. There is no way he comes in and town reads me at EoD as scum. It's too risky. You two need to lead the town here While I can conclude that the white-knighting accusations would draw attention to him because he is black-sheeping, surely that can be dismissed with WIFOM, no? If you are town then it's similar to what he did last game with Lunatic. Do you have any other reasons to town-read him? I don't think it's like what he did with lunatic. Not on Day 1. Not like this. And I don't think he'd make the same play back to back like that. It's not smart. Also he wasn't the first person to really start pushing that luna might be town. Here he comes in at the very end saying I might be town. Its too risky as scum. He is not scum, do NOT let the others convince you he is On November 05 2016 02:53 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 02:50 Calix wrote:On November 05 2016 02:47 ExO_ wrote:
Calix/Skynx any questions you have please ask me, before I flip as town please ask now. I will try my best to answer quickly. I'm 100% sure you two are town and the people like NU trying to discredit Skynx are almost certainly going to be scum Yeah, can you please summarise/ conclude your reads in one post? I think that would help people see what your reads were. You can even just cobble your previous posts into one since you have 10 minutes left. This is something I'm not very good at. a lot of my reads I base on what I think, and researching specific examples is hard. I think out of TT/Rels/NU there is at least 1 scum. Maybe 2. TT or rels should have known better than to let this lynch go down like it did, and instead both pushed it hard. I would look at them heavily. NU's game has just been really bad all around, hard to say if its because he's bad or because he's scum though. I didn't like the way mahgrell played, and the way he's afk now but I think he's something to look at after the top 3. DF is townier than mahgrell. Foreman is angry town (last two quotes here for future reference) Here I thought that looked like a beginning of push on TT, with justification from a dead player filter. And after that she pushed TT. Voilà. The way she pushed TT during the night is weird to me, I had the feeling while I was catching up that she was preparing her TT push even during EOD, and that it was too clean to be town; starting with quoting the soon-to-be-lynched- ExO during EOD, then quoting his posts during the night, then beginning the push. I actually thought I had caught her with these two posts during my catching up. But then TT responded and she began to townread him. And that was townie; why would she prepare such a good execution for her push during the night, then letting it all go after a few TT posts ? So I don't really believe she's scum anymore. USING THE POSTS OF A LYNCHED PLAYER TO INFORM YOUR READS IS PRO-TOWN, LOL. How on Earth does anyone think that's scummy? That's literally what people should be doing after a mislynch since a) you know that they were being honest with their arguments and thus you can assess them without being paranoid, b) you can see (to an extent) how people treated the MLed player and see if anyone's behaviour (hint, Foreman, hint) doesn't make much sense and c) helps you to re-evaluate which is something that I've been trying to work on for the entire fucking game. I stopped pushing TT given that a) he was correct that my point against him was strained and b) that was around the time I checked up on his scum meta and realised it didn't match up with his play this game, therefore I concluded that he just sucks.
This has nothing to do with my post. My post is saying that the way you created your push on TT seems fabricated.
On November 07 2016 17:23 Calix wrote:
Secondly, that whole "trying to set things up without looking like she's doing that" point is something I said about you first. Why do you continue to ignore my points against you? I'd expect a bit of paranoia about "Calix is trying to get a ML on me" given that I pushed you AFTER TT. Instead you completely ignore the fact that I cased you at all. You didn't acknowledge my vote on you on D1, preferring to say "lol do you have a reason to scum-read me outside of activity?" (when nobody had mentioned your activity???) and there is zero concern over the fact that I made an actual fucking case on you N1...or the fact that I keep voting for you.
Why didn't you respond to that first thing? Why wasn't that a factor that made you 'concerned' about me?
I've seen nothing that needed answers on your posts on me, only shitty narratives. Please repost things that you expected me to answer to.
On November 07 2016 17:23 Calix wrote:
(thirdly, I've been extremely townie the entire game and the only reason that people are still paranoid is because of my last scum game even though I'm acting completely differently, wtf)
I disagree that you've been extremely townie. You had a couple of towntells but you're nowhere near lock town.
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On November 07 2016 18:04 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 17:23 Calix wrote:On November 07 2016 09:32 Rels wrote:
I don't have a lot of reasons to scumread Foreman. But I have reasons to townread everyone else to varying degrees (or in DF case, I don't think he can be Skynx partner) and my tone read of Foreman at the beginning of the game doesn't hold up to the amount of nothing he's doing right now.
The only thing that is maybe scummy is that he had only weak interactions with Skynx at some points, but there is a lot of Skynx talk in his filter: he voted him, and he had several posts that either talked about him, or talked about people read of Skynx. Can't remember who posted that first but I read something about it when catching up and it's true.
Might be a partner tell but it's quite weak. Did you not read my damning post on Foreman's AWFUL read progression with regards to ExO??? And he switched to ExO after 'pushing' on Skynx so if Skynx is scum then that looks even worse. I can see him trying to distance from Skynx before switching votes before Skynx could actually be at risk of getting lynched. + Show Spoiler +(By the way, DF was the dude who talked about Skynx/ Foreman interactions) I don't think his read progression on exo was awful. Let me find your post. OK I disagree that his reasonning was awful, when he's saying ExO is scumreading anyone that dares scumreading him he's right. But the part where he goes "You're flat out lying about me and attempting to intimidate me, for one thing." is pretty weird that's true. Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 17:23 Calix wrote:Secondly, this 'case' against me (for lack of a better word) is absolute shite. On November 07 2016 09:51 Rels wrote:Now regarding Calix. I think she's town. If I'm wrong on Foreman though I think she could be scum. First because I townread TT and NU more than her and I don't think DF is partner with Skynx. And second because I didn't like the feeling from two of her posts. To explain, I felt like she was trying to set up things in the future without being too obvious about it. In spoiler the posts that inspired me this feeling: + Show Spoiler +On November 05 2016 02:55 Calix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 02:54 ExO_ wrote:
If there is one thing you do please listen to me:
You need to figure out the scum out of Rels/TT/NU
They are going to try to push suspicion on to people like skynx here. Do not let them. I'm speaking to all of you town, figure out which one of them is scum and lynch them These kinds of posts are making me think ExO is town. Fuck. I'll just say that if you are town then I'll keep this in mind. This is the one that made me think that in the first place. On November 05 2016 03:40 Calix wrote:Alright, finished looking through ExO's filter. He was a bit frazzled at EOD and his reads shifted quite rapidly (understandable) so it's hard for me to pin down the finer details of his reads but it's obvious that he hard town-read Calix/ Skynx, town-reads Foreman and thinks 1-2 scum are among TT/ Rels/ NU at the very least. I've copied some quotes of his. I'd like some comments on them + Show Spoiler [TT VT claim] +On November 04 2016 05:58 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 05:55 Calix wrote:On November 04 2016 05:53 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 05:49 Calix wrote:On November 04 2016 05:44 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 05:41 Calix wrote:
Foreman, can you give your thoughts on Skynx' wall-posts?
As for ExO, I missed #600. I'm not sure I agree. He says "I think ExO is scum but if he isn't then he's only a VT and is useless so he can die"
He thinks you're scum, ergo you're lying about being VT. All he does is rule out the possibility of you being TPR. I don't see inconsistency here. Or I'm lying about being VT to get scum to not mess with me on day 1. However look at the way he posts. He knows I'm only VT. You need to learn to read between the lines. Mafia are never going to come into the thread and announce they are mafia How would scum!TT know that you, the town!ExO, is telling the truth and that you're not a TPR exactly? I don't follow the "he knows I'm only VT" part. He wouldn't. However, he would had no problem killing me if he's scum (especially if he's scum and suspect I'm a power role). Does this make sense to you or do I need to break it down entirely? ELI5 I'm running into a problem that is rare for me - I have way too many town-reads. Needless to say, I'm having a hard time here. Scum TT knows who his scum buddy is, and who is town. He sees I claim VT. He knows that by killing me he'll either kill a VT (in which case he can claim "he was being worthless for town and it was good to get him out now, blah blah blah), or he'll kill a town power role and again blame it on my play. He claims that I'm either scum or VT. This is a call that nobody who is town will make. Because if a town player believes my VT claim then I cannot be scum. However if a town player doubts my VT claim then I might be power role and they might not wanna lynch me. The only people who would want to lynch me right now for the logic TT is presenting, are scum. This might become a valid argument now that we know that ExO was town. + Show Spoiler [Foreman town-read] +On November 04 2016 07:42 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 07:36 Rels wrote:
ExO, the only thing that keeps me from tunneling you into oblivion is your explanation of the VT thing. Please answer me about why your foreman read changed without reason between now and yesterday because if I was scum and foreman, I wouldn't be half-assing it like he is. I check to make sure what I'm posting lines up with everything else posted so far. If he's scum and not reading something he's directly posting about then it's poor scum play imo. The tone of his posts comes across as lazy half-assing towny rather than scummy to me (here for future reference) + Show Spoiler [Foreman 'intimidation' point] +On November 04 2016 09:06 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 09:04 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:59 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 08:58 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:55 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 08:53 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:51 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 08:48 Foreman wrote:On November 04 2016 08:42 ExO_ wrote:
NU is actively borrowing his reads for rels in an attempt to push me, with Marhgwell being 3rd on a wagon.
Marhgwell is scum, and probably NU I disagree with both of your scumreads. Mahrgell's flip on me looked like an honest reassessment. If he was scum, he could have accused me of AtE and used my reach out as grounds to double down on me. NU... I don't get why you think he's scum. What do you think of Mahgrell voting me without giving his reasoning just now? What about NU literally taking the words out of rels mouth as a reason to push me, even though rels didn't see it as a reason to scum read me. foreman read the damn thread. And do something to help town. What did this post accomplish here? What did you disagreeing with me (in a bad way) accomplish? N O T H I N G My bad, let me be more productive, then. ##Vote: ExO_ for what reason? Why do you think I'm scum? You're flat out lying about me and attempting to intimidate me, for one thing. For another, your scumreads are trash and consist of two people pushing you. Because y'know, the entire scum team is going to throw everything they have into a d1 mislynch. how exactly am I lying about you? or attempting to intimidate you? Aren't you supposed to be mr.coldnotaffectedbyonlinepersonalities guy No, I'm Mr. Distantandunintentionallytreatpeoplelikepixelsuntiligettoknowthem guy. You are lying about me doing nothing in my disagreement with you. Before you say you weren't, be a pal and quote where i stated my thoughts on Mahrgell's flip prior to that post. Otherwise, admit that you were simply trying to intimidate me into thinking I was being worthless. ...what? are you delusional? Like legitimately are you delusional? Nothing I've done has been even close to intimidation. And nothing I've done has even been close to lying. You're literally bordering on actually being delusional While ExO town-read him, I think this post is interesting because it's an example of Foreman being hyperbolic with poor reasoning. + Show Spoiler [TT read progression read] +On November 04 2016 14:36 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2016 14:30 Tictock wrote:On November 04 2016 06:11 ExO_ wrote:On November 04 2016 06:09 Tictock wrote:On November 04 2016 06:01 Calix wrote:
But how hard is it to just say something like "oh I was joking" or "I wanted to play the game properly" or something? Maybe I'm just assuming that ExO is as amazingly intelligent as I am, but that doesn't seem like a stretch for scum.
His later behaviour is more concerning to me. I don't really like it and the point which I found the most interesting from him is something that you claim was a joke. (I think) Thats actually kinda my point, town!Exo could have said the same things, or started posting gifs to joke around. What did we see? Him getting butthurt that you called him out for not posting Gifs and attacking you for it. Starting a discussion is EXACTLY what town wants to do. And its exactly what I did. Implying that I wouldn't do that is town is at best misleading. What I did drew a lot of attention to me, you really think thats what I would do as scum? Instead of posting a few gifs and joking around a bit? please. Lynch TT its so obvious at this point Cute... but you really never did anything with that now did you? On November 03 2016 15:11 ExO_ wrote:
I'm tired. I just got home. I don't feel like reading through the read. But I'll tell you my thoughts in a nutshell from the point I left.
I jumped on to Calix initially and continued to pressure him(her?) long after I thought she was scum. I do think the way he entered the thread was dumb and likely to inflame me. But his responses afterwards seemed very much from a towny perspective. I continued the pressure to see who would jump on the bandwagon with me in an attempt to press low hanging fruit.
I'll look at it tomorrow, but NeverUnlucky/foreman are both going to be the first people I look at. Your follow up to this was voting me kus you liked Skynx's case and think he is a cool guy. Now it seems like you've forgotten you even scumread me. On November 04 2016 08:42 ExO_ wrote:
NU is actively borrowing his reads for rels in an attempt to push me, with Marhgwell being 3rd on a wagon.
Marhgwell is scum, and probably NU And apparently everyone who is voting you is also scum, so your reads are just OMGUS. On November 04 2016 09:16 ExO_ wrote:
Darthfoley/Skynk have the shortest filters and might be good places to look as well. Going off filter length NU/Calix shouldn't be scum because they are so far and above everyone else. I'd find it hard to be posting that much as scum Which is now effectively half the game being thrown in for good measure. I guess Skynx is also not a cool guy anymore either. you are cherry picking my filter, without following any of the progression of it. Why? I think you are trying to tilt me. It's not going to work On November 05 2016 02:48 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 02:47 Calix wrote:On November 05 2016 02:45 ExO_ wrote:
Okay I'm back home I'm going to try to type things out as fast as I can.
CALIX listen to me. Skynx is town. There is no way he comes in and town reads me at EoD as scum. It's too risky. You two need to lead the town here While I can conclude that the white-knighting accusations would draw attention to him because he is black-sheeping, surely that can be dismissed with WIFOM, no? If you are town then it's similar to what he did last game with Lunatic. Do you have any other reasons to town-read him? I don't think it's like what he did with lunatic. Not on Day 1. Not like this. And I don't think he'd make the same play back to back like that. It's not smart. Also he wasn't the first person to really start pushing that luna might be town. Here he comes in at the very end saying I might be town. Its too risky as scum. He is not scum, do NOT let the others convince you he is On November 05 2016 02:53 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 02:50 Calix wrote:On November 05 2016 02:47 ExO_ wrote:
Calix/Skynx any questions you have please ask me, before I flip as town please ask now. I will try my best to answer quickly. I'm 100% sure you two are town and the people like NU trying to discredit Skynx are almost certainly going to be scum Yeah, can you please summarise/ conclude your reads in one post? I think that would help people see what your reads were. You can even just cobble your previous posts into one since you have 10 minutes left. This is something I'm not very good at. a lot of my reads I base on what I think, and researching specific examples is hard. I think out of TT/Rels/NU there is at least 1 scum. Maybe 2. TT or rels should have known better than to let this lynch go down like it did, and instead both pushed it hard. I would look at them heavily. NU's game has just been really bad all around, hard to say if its because he's bad or because he's scum though. I didn't like the way mahgrell played, and the way he's afk now but I think he's something to look at after the top 3. DF is townier than mahgrell. Foreman is angry town (last two quotes here for future reference) Here I thought that looked like a beginning of push on TT, with justification from a dead player filter. And after that she pushed TT. Voilà. The way she pushed TT during the night is weird to me, I had the feeling while I was catching up that she was preparing her TT push even during EOD, and that it was too clean to be town; starting with quoting the soon-to-be-lynched- ExO during EOD, then quoting his posts during the night, then beginning the push. I actually thought I had caught her with these two posts during my catching up. But then TT responded and she began to townread him. And that was townie; why would she prepare such a good execution for her push during the night, then letting it all go after a few TT posts ? So I don't really believe she's scum anymore. USING THE POSTS OF A LYNCHED PLAYER TO INFORM YOUR READS IS PRO-TOWN, LOL. How on Earth does anyone think that's scummy? That's literally what people should be doing after a mislynch since a) you know that they were being honest with their arguments and thus you can assess them without being paranoid, b) you can see (to an extent) how people treated the MLed player and see if anyone's behaviour (hint, Foreman, hint) doesn't make much sense and c) helps you to re-evaluate which is something that I've been trying to work on for the entire fucking game. I stopped pushing TT given that a) he was correct that my point against him was strained and b) that was around the time I checked up on his scum meta and realised it didn't match up with his play this game, therefore I concluded that he just sucks. This has nothing to do with my post. My post is saying that the way you created your push on TT seems fabricated. Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 17:23 Calix wrote:
Secondly, that whole "trying to set things up without looking like she's doing that" point is something I said about you first. Why do you continue to ignore my points against you? I'd expect a bit of paranoia about "Calix is trying to get a ML on me" given that I pushed you AFTER TT. Instead you completely ignore the fact that I cased you at all. You didn't acknowledge my vote on you on D1, preferring to say "lol do you have a reason to scum-read me outside of activity?" (when nobody had mentioned your activity???) and there is zero concern over the fact that I made an actual fucking case on you N1...or the fact that I keep voting for you.
Why didn't you respond to that first thing? Why wasn't that a factor that made you 'concerned' about me? I've seen nothing that needed answers on your posts on me, only shitty narratives. Please repost things that you expected me to answer to. Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 17:23 Calix wrote:
(thirdly, I've been extremely townie the entire game and the only reason that people are still paranoid is because of my last scum game even though I'm acting completely differently, wtf) I disagree that you've been extremely townie. You had a couple of towntells but you're nowhere near lock town.
It's not 'pretty weird', it's complete bullshit. Please enlighten me on how anyone could infer that from what ExO said.
"seems fabricated" - I made one post, he responded and then I dropped it. Prior to that, I told ExO that I would consider his points if he was town and quoted some ExO posts. My response is 100% relevant because it's explaining the logic behind doing that.
If you actually thought that my posts were 'shitty narratives' then you would have said as much. Thinking that my points against you suck =/= flat-out ignoring them. You also ignored the discussion about you between NU and myself. One moment while I find the quotes.
What happened to "approaching lock town" then "Calix having a lot of town-reads is townie because she wouldn't have a problem finding lynch-baits to push" then...? You clearly thought that I was extremely townie at one point, lmao.
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And again, if you thought that the following post was shitty then why wouldn't that be part of your "Calix could be scum" narrative...? Did you think it was shitty in a town-motivated way or what?
(also I'd like your response to the discussion about it that followed + the discussion that followed on from when NU said "Rels' reaction to ExO at EOD was suspicious")
On November 05 2016 07:12 Calix wrote:
Okay so here's what I think. I don't see anything that really gives me town vibes from Rels, he's in my POE reads and I don't really like him. Kind of want to sleep soon so have some bulletpoints:
1. He feels like he has an agenda with his posts. I get this impression from how strongly he emphasises certain points compared to others. It's like he's trying to achieve X but is also trying to hide that he's trying to achieve X. Examples that pinged me include the following
A) his town-read on me. He really wanted me to know about that. Nobody really needed like, four reasons for why I am town when nobody scum-read me at all at that point and it's not like I need to be defended. Terrible priorities at best, scum pocketing me at worst.
B) his town-read on Foreman. He defends Foreman because of his tone which I'm noting because I don't think he's ever used tone to read anyone else and he seems really invested in that read. This is a very weak point by itself but I'm wondering if it's an example of Rels showing inherent bias when reading players.
c) his discredits of Skynx. I'm referring to EOD where he was saying "well Skynx defending ExO isn't a town tell because Skynx would be aware of how that would look to everyone so it's null" which pinged me because he scum-read ExO so why the fuck would he care about how ExO read Skynx if he thinks ExO is mafia? And who thinks that saying "well this thing that you think is townie is actually null" is a good idea BEFORE someone has flipped anyway? I think Rels knew that ExO would flip town and didn't want Skynx getting town cred for defending the ML.
2. His progression with ExO/ darthfoley. While Rels is attacking darthfoley consistently, he didn't have a problem with switching to ExO by making a case. What's the problem there? ExO was already the leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that. And he kept that reasoning in mind but I don't get why he felt the need to switch to ExO when he had that VT claim town-read and felt that DF was scummier.
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Here's another post (this time from mahrgell)
On November 06 2016 00:10 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 07:12 Calix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Okay so here's what I think. I don't see anything that really gives me town vibes from Rels, he's in my POE reads and I don't really like him. Kind of want to sleep soon so have some bulletpoints:
1. He feels like he has an agenda with his posts. I get this impression from how strongly he emphasises certain points compared to others. It's like he's trying to achieve X but is also trying to hide that he's trying to achieve X. Examples that pinged me include the following
A) his town-read on me. He really wanted me to know about that. Nobody really needed like, four reasons for why I am town when nobody scum-read me at all at that point and it's not like I need to be defended. Terrible priorities at best, scum pocketing me at worst.
B) his town-read on Foreman. He defends Foreman because of his tone which I'm noting because I don't think he's ever used tone to read anyone else and he seems really invested in that read. This is a very weak point by itself but I'm wondering if it's an example of Rels showing inherent bias when reading players.
c) his discredits of Skynx. I'm referring to EOD where he was saying "well Skynx defending ExO isn't a town tell because Skynx would be aware of how that would look to everyone so it's null" which pinged me because he scum-read ExO so why the fuck would he care about how ExO read Skynx if he thinks ExO is mafia? And who thinks that saying "well this thing that you think is townie is actually null" is a good idea BEFORE someone has flipped anyway? I think Rels knew that ExO would flip town and didn't want Skynx getting town cred for defending the ML.
2. His progression with ExO/ darthfoley. While Rels is attacking darthfoley consistently, he didn't have a problem with switching to ExO by making a case. What's the problem there? ExO was already the leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that. And he kept that reasoning in mind but I don't get why he felt the need to switch to ExO when he had that VT claim town-read and felt that DF was scummier. Looked at this. 1) This is something I also noticed. Actually with him defending me against DF. At this time, I think I had established that I'm willing to stand up myself. Throw shade at me, and I will try to bring light into it. DF was the only one going for me, everyone was at Exo already. Why even defend me with a huge post? I won't get lynched by DF alone. I can defend myself. This alone would probably not be weird, but it follows your argument. I just had this feeling, but your examples were not as clear to me before you brought them up giving my intuition more concrete food. In general, rereading his filter he had his case on DF... Except for that, all he did was expanding on other peoples stuff. He defended me, after I needed defense. Same with you or Foreman. He suddenly created large Exo accusations after Exo was already voted by 6 people. Etc. Basically all he ever did was to fight on battle fields where the battle was already over. "Look here, I'm fighting" 1c) I can't make sense of this now. I made clear that Skynx is my scumread right now. If we follow the idea of accusing Rels too... They could make up all kind of shit. If Skynx flips town (or I 180 on my read on him), I would probably come back to this. 2) I can follow your thought process here. I'm seeing how this makes you scumread him. But when I'm doing that thought train myself, I end with a "meh, whatever". He later detailed in great detail why he was suddenly considering Exo to be scum. If we buy that, this swap is legitimate. If we don't buy it, it is imho a repeat of what I described under 1), so not a new point. I'm honestly not that experienced in the meta of "If your target of choice won't happen, what will you do? Confirm an acceptable lynch or stay strong with your target." Trying to read something from it is difficult for me. Conclusion:I see your points, I think you are onto something here. But for me right now Skynx is my priority. I can't exactly bend my head around how that Rels suspicion and my Skynx scumread fit together. Do they fit together? Must one be wrong? (Or both wrong and I just suck at this game...)
Also I was nice and linked to the post where NU made his point: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/515718-newbie-student-mafia-xxiv?page=59#1163
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On November 07 2016 18:21 Calix wrote:And again, if you thought that the following post was shitty then why wouldn't that be part of your "Calix could be scum" narrative...? Did you think it was shitty in a town-motivated way or what? (also I'd like your response to the discussion about it that followed + the discussion that followed on from when NU said "Rels' reaction to ExO at EOD was suspicious") Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 07:12 Calix wrote:
Okay so here's what I think. I don't see anything that really gives me town vibes from Rels, he's in my POE reads and I don't really like him. Kind of want to sleep soon so have some bulletpoints:
1. He feels like he has an agenda with his posts. I get this impression from how strongly he emphasises certain points compared to others. It's like he's trying to achieve X but is also trying to hide that he's trying to achieve X. Examples that pinged me include the following
A) his town-read on me. He really wanted me to know about that. Nobody really needed like, four reasons for why I am town when nobody scum-read me at all at that point and it's not like I need to be defended. Terrible priorities at best, scum pocketing me at worst.
B) his town-read on Foreman. He defends Foreman because of his tone which I'm noting because I don't think he's ever used tone to read anyone else and he seems really invested in that read. This is a very weak point by itself but I'm wondering if it's an example of Rels showing inherent bias when reading players.
c) his discredits of Skynx. I'm referring to EOD where he was saying "well Skynx defending ExO isn't a town tell because Skynx would be aware of how that would look to everyone so it's null" which pinged me because he scum-read ExO so why the fuck would he care about how ExO read Skynx if he thinks ExO is mafia? And who thinks that saying "well this thing that you think is townie is actually null" is a good idea BEFORE someone has flipped anyway? I think Rels knew that ExO would flip town and didn't want Skynx getting town cred for defending the ML.
2. His progression with ExO/ darthfoley. While Rels is attacking darthfoley consistently, he didn't have a problem with switching to ExO by making a case. What's the problem there? ExO was already the leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that. And he kept that reasoning in mind but I don't get why he felt the need to switch to ExO when he had that VT claim town-read and felt that DF was scummier.
Yep this post is shitty but I don't think it's particulary scummy. If you want t aresponse:
A) There is no point here. I'm attentive to any towntells you might have 'cause you're a very good scum players.
B) Dunno what to say about that. I thought foreman was town because of his tone. It was not a strong read.
C) An example of a shitty narrative. I said what I thought, you are making it fit into a scum motivation.
2) OK this might be scummy. This is false : "he leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that." My reasonning for gradually scumreading ExO is super clear so there is nothing weird about it. You're stretching your point here to again making it fit to a scum motivation, but this time you're not telling the truth. You don't understand why I switched to ExO ?
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On November 07 2016 18:24 Calix wrote:Here's another post (this time from mahrgell) Show nested quote +On November 06 2016 00:10 mahrgell wrote:On November 05 2016 07:12 Calix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Okay so here's what I think. I don't see anything that really gives me town vibes from Rels, he's in my POE reads and I don't really like him. Kind of want to sleep soon so have some bulletpoints:
1. He feels like he has an agenda with his posts. I get this impression from how strongly he emphasises certain points compared to others. It's like he's trying to achieve X but is also trying to hide that he's trying to achieve X. Examples that pinged me include the following
A) his town-read on me. He really wanted me to know about that. Nobody really needed like, four reasons for why I am town when nobody scum-read me at all at that point and it's not like I need to be defended. Terrible priorities at best, scum pocketing me at worst.
B) his town-read on Foreman. He defends Foreman because of his tone which I'm noting because I don't think he's ever used tone to read anyone else and he seems really invested in that read. This is a very weak point by itself but I'm wondering if it's an example of Rels showing inherent bias when reading players.
c) his discredits of Skynx. I'm referring to EOD where he was saying "well Skynx defending ExO isn't a town tell because Skynx would be aware of how that would look to everyone so it's null" which pinged me because he scum-read ExO so why the fuck would he care about how ExO read Skynx if he thinks ExO is mafia? And who thinks that saying "well this thing that you think is townie is actually null" is a good idea BEFORE someone has flipped anyway? I think Rels knew that ExO would flip town and didn't want Skynx getting town cred for defending the ML.
2. His progression with ExO/ darthfoley. While Rels is attacking darthfoley consistently, he didn't have a problem with switching to ExO by making a case. What's the problem there? ExO was already the leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that. And he kept that reasoning in mind but I don't get why he felt the need to switch to ExO when he had that VT claim town-read and felt that DF was scummier. Looked at this. 1) This is something I also noticed. Actually with him defending me against DF. At this time, I think I had established that I'm willing to stand up myself. Throw shade at me, and I will try to bring light into it. DF was the only one going for me, everyone was at Exo already. Why even defend me with a huge post? I won't get lynched by DF alone. I can defend myself. This alone would probably not be weird, but it follows your argument. I just had this feeling, but your examples were not as clear to me before you brought them up giving my intuition more concrete food. In general, rereading his filter he had his case on DF... Except for that, all he did was expanding on other peoples stuff. He defended me, after I needed defense. Same with you or Foreman. He suddenly created large Exo accusations after Exo was already voted by 6 people. Etc. Basically all he ever did was to fight on battle fields where the battle was already over. "Look here, I'm fighting" 1c) I can't make sense of this now. I made clear that Skynx is my scumread right now. If we follow the idea of accusing Rels too... They could make up all kind of shit. If Skynx flips town (or I 180 on my read on him), I would probably come back to this. 2) I can follow your thought process here. I'm seeing how this makes you scumread him. But when I'm doing that thought train myself, I end with a "meh, whatever". He later detailed in great detail why he was suddenly considering Exo to be scum. If we buy that, this swap is legitimate. If we don't buy it, it is imho a repeat of what I described under 1), so not a new point. I'm honestly not that experienced in the meta of "If your target of choice won't happen, what will you do? Confirm an acceptable lynch or stay strong with your target." Trying to read something from it is difficult for me. Conclusion:I see your points, I think you are onto something here. But for me right now Skynx is my priority. I can't exactly bend my head around how that Rels suspicion and my Skynx scumread fit together. Do they fit together? Must one be wrong? (Or both wrong and I just suck at this game...) Also I was nice and linked to the post where NU made his point: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/515718-newbie-student-mafia-xxiv?page=59#1163
1) That doesn't make me scum. I had, and still have actually, this idea that I can't understand how DF couldn't townread marg based on his newbieness; and actually, how he could compare mahrgell play to his scumplay in his first scumgame when it's super different.
1c) Same point as above.
2) He said he didn't think my ExO read was weird.
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On November 06 2016 04:09 NeverUnlucky wrote:I've re-read EoD, and noticed a few things. While myself, DF, and Calix said that we were thinking/starting to think that ExO was town, only Rels and TT were still confident in ExO flipping scum. Tictock seemed to be tunneled. He did not bring new points to the table, just said that he was confident in the lynch. Rels, however, was bringing new arguments he did not share before EOD. It looked like he was making an impromptu case on ExO and that he was scavenging for reasons to still scum-read him to ignore the town tone ExO conveyed. Here are his posts: Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 01:49 Rels wrote:On November 05 2016 01:19 ExO_ wrote:
I just woke up, and I have to run errands. I'll probably be back before EoD but I can't swear to it. What I will say is this:
I came into the thread just saying whatever I felt like. It's how I always play town. I don't try to carefully construct my posts I just say whats on my mind. I did a lot of OMGUS. When I finally sat and calmly looked at the game, I put a little suspicion on DF/Skynx because of short filter, and rels for a similar reason. But I've been attacked for switching views, for not tunneling, for tunneling at the start, and a whole variety of other things.
I don't know exactly how I could defend myself at this point. I've done my best to make you realize that I'm town. But a LOT of people are tunneling on me. I'm not sure what else I'd have to do to prove I'm town.
The idea that I had a scum slip is a complete joke. If I die today:
Lynch TT/Rels. Both are experienced townies yet are moronically pushing this lynch. Especially TT. After that I would look for people who coasted and just hopped on the wagon day 1.
Do not Lynch Calix: Calix is the most most obviously confirmed town here. I want to say NU as well because of filter length, but I'm not sure.
Anywho I'm running some errands now like I said. I should be back before EoD but my motivation to play this game is basically out the window. This is so bad. This martiring won't get you through this lynch. You're saying you can't defend yourself 'cause you're attacked whatever thing you chose to do; well, you could defend yourself by pointing out WHY other people are scummy. In this very post you admit that your OMGUS was bad; that after re evaluating you think one of DF / Skynx / Rels are probably scum; THEN you go on "lynch TT and Rels 'cause they should know better than pushing me" which is the FUCKING DEFINITION OF OMGUS. The last time you've stated reasons for your reads was your NU read yesterday. Since then it has been either OMGUS or filter size. Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 01:53 Rels wrote:On November 05 2016 01:21 Skynx wrote:
I mean Exo did some bad stuff guys, as i quoted previous page.
However, can someone please give me some solid arguments that makes him objective scum like TT and NU?
Other than him being defensive all the time which is not even a reason anymore and makes sense as everyone is scumreading him. - has claimed that his aggression towards Calix at the beginning of the game was fake and just here to provoke reaction, which is something scum always say to explain themselves out of a bad push - has forgotten that he wanted to attack NU and foreman during his sleep and went to attack TT with no reasonning - has forgotten he liked Skynx and listed him as potential scum - has only posted to defend himself yesterday, when Calix intervened to give him some breathing room, he just disappeared instead of doing stuff - martyring, admitting the OMGUS was bad, then OMGUSING some more in the next paragraph (TT and Rels should know better!) Foreman was conveniently afk.
I have nothing to respond this. Saying that i scavenged reasons to scumread ExO is again a shitty narrative. I didn't scavenge reasons to scumread ExO, I had reasons to scumread ExO. And I didn't find his tone super townie at EoD, a scum in the same situation could have done the very same things he did to try and survive by appeal to emotion.
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On November 07 2016 18:55 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 18:21 Calix wrote:And again, if you thought that the following post was shitty then why wouldn't that be part of your "Calix could be scum" narrative...? Did you think it was shitty in a town-motivated way or what? (also I'd like your response to the discussion about it that followed + the discussion that followed on from when NU said "Rels' reaction to ExO at EOD was suspicious") On November 05 2016 07:12 Calix wrote:
Okay so here's what I think. I don't see anything that really gives me town vibes from Rels, he's in my POE reads and I don't really like him. Kind of want to sleep soon so have some bulletpoints:
1. He feels like he has an agenda with his posts. I get this impression from how strongly he emphasises certain points compared to others. It's like he's trying to achieve X but is also trying to hide that he's trying to achieve X. Examples that pinged me include the following
A) his town-read on me. He really wanted me to know about that. Nobody really needed like, four reasons for why I am town when nobody scum-read me at all at that point and it's not like I need to be defended. Terrible priorities at best, scum pocketing me at worst.
B) his town-read on Foreman. He defends Foreman because of his tone which I'm noting because I don't think he's ever used tone to read anyone else and he seems really invested in that read. This is a very weak point by itself but I'm wondering if it's an example of Rels showing inherent bias when reading players.
c) his discredits of Skynx. I'm referring to EOD where he was saying "well Skynx defending ExO isn't a town tell because Skynx would be aware of how that would look to everyone so it's null" which pinged me because he scum-read ExO so why the fuck would he care about how ExO read Skynx if he thinks ExO is mafia? And who thinks that saying "well this thing that you think is townie is actually null" is a good idea BEFORE someone has flipped anyway? I think Rels knew that ExO would flip town and didn't want Skynx getting town cred for defending the ML.
2. His progression with ExO/ darthfoley. While Rels is attacking darthfoley consistently, he didn't have a problem with switching to ExO by making a case. What's the problem there? ExO was already the leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that. And he kept that reasoning in mind but I don't get why he felt the need to switch to ExO when he had that VT claim town-read and felt that DF was scummier. Yep this post is shitty but I don't think it's particulary scummy. If you want t aresponse: A) There is no point here. I'm attentive to any towntells you might have 'cause you're a very good scum players. B) Dunno what to say about that. I thought foreman was town because of his tone. It was not a strong read. C) An example of a shitty narrative. I said what I thought, you are making it fit into a scum motivation. 2) OK this might be scummy. This is false : "he leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that." My reasonning for gradually scumreading ExO is super clear so there is nothing weird about it. You're stretching your point here to again making it fit to a scum motivation, but this time you're not telling the truth. You don't understand why I switched to ExO ?
Okay but that doesn't explain why you didn't acknowledge it to begin with...?
A) My point is that you over-emphasised your town read on me for no reason and it looks like pocketing. How is that not a point? And do you think I just made up those 'town tells' now or something?
B) You said "I think his tone is super townie" - this isn't a strong read HOW? I notice that you are now shying away from the strong language that you used at the start of the game between voting for ExO, calling me 'almost lock town' and now backing away from that and claiming that your Foreman read 'wasn't a strong one'. I'm calling bullshit here. Your strongest stances at present are "NU/ TT are obvious town" and "Skynx is scummy" which are obvious and unoriginal stances.
C) No, I demand an explanation. What the fuck were you trying to achieve with those posts about Skynx at EOD?
2. Where is the falsehood? You were one of the last voters. Your vote wasn't required to lynch ExO and you haven't said why you felt that you had to vote for him. You had previously stated a town-read on ExO. There was no need to make a case like that and vote for him, that is my point.
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On November 07 2016 18:59 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 18:24 Calix wrote:Here's another post (this time from mahrgell) On November 06 2016 00:10 mahrgell wrote:On November 05 2016 07:12 Calix wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Okay so here's what I think. I don't see anything that really gives me town vibes from Rels, he's in my POE reads and I don't really like him. Kind of want to sleep soon so have some bulletpoints:
1. He feels like he has an agenda with his posts. I get this impression from how strongly he emphasises certain points compared to others. It's like he's trying to achieve X but is also trying to hide that he's trying to achieve X. Examples that pinged me include the following
A) his town-read on me. He really wanted me to know about that. Nobody really needed like, four reasons for why I am town when nobody scum-read me at all at that point and it's not like I need to be defended. Terrible priorities at best, scum pocketing me at worst.
B) his town-read on Foreman. He defends Foreman because of his tone which I'm noting because I don't think he's ever used tone to read anyone else and he seems really invested in that read. This is a very weak point by itself but I'm wondering if it's an example of Rels showing inherent bias when reading players.
c) his discredits of Skynx. I'm referring to EOD where he was saying "well Skynx defending ExO isn't a town tell because Skynx would be aware of how that would look to everyone so it's null" which pinged me because he scum-read ExO so why the fuck would he care about how ExO read Skynx if he thinks ExO is mafia? And who thinks that saying "well this thing that you think is townie is actually null" is a good idea BEFORE someone has flipped anyway? I think Rels knew that ExO would flip town and didn't want Skynx getting town cred for defending the ML.
2. His progression with ExO/ darthfoley. While Rels is attacking darthfoley consistently, he didn't have a problem with switching to ExO by making a case. What's the problem there? ExO was already the leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that. And he kept that reasoning in mind but I don't get why he felt the need to switch to ExO when he had that VT claim town-read and felt that DF was scummier. Looked at this. 1) This is something I also noticed. Actually with him defending me against DF. At this time, I think I had established that I'm willing to stand up myself. Throw shade at me, and I will try to bring light into it. DF was the only one going for me, everyone was at Exo already. Why even defend me with a huge post? I won't get lynched by DF alone. I can defend myself. This alone would probably not be weird, but it follows your argument. I just had this feeling, but your examples were not as clear to me before you brought them up giving my intuition more concrete food. In general, rereading his filter he had his case on DF... Except for that, all he did was expanding on other peoples stuff. He defended me, after I needed defense. Same with you or Foreman. He suddenly created large Exo accusations after Exo was already voted by 6 people. Etc. Basically all he ever did was to fight on battle fields where the battle was already over. "Look here, I'm fighting" 1c) I can't make sense of this now. I made clear that Skynx is my scumread right now. If we follow the idea of accusing Rels too... They could make up all kind of shit. If Skynx flips town (or I 180 on my read on him), I would probably come back to this. 2) I can follow your thought process here. I'm seeing how this makes you scumread him. But when I'm doing that thought train myself, I end with a "meh, whatever". He later detailed in great detail why he was suddenly considering Exo to be scum. If we buy that, this swap is legitimate. If we don't buy it, it is imho a repeat of what I described under 1), so not a new point. I'm honestly not that experienced in the meta of "If your target of choice won't happen, what will you do? Confirm an acceptable lynch or stay strong with your target." Trying to read something from it is difficult for me. Conclusion:I see your points, I think you are onto something here. But for me right now Skynx is my priority. I can't exactly bend my head around how that Rels suspicion and my Skynx scumread fit together. Do they fit together? Must one be wrong? (Or both wrong and I just suck at this game...) Also I was nice and linked to the post where NU made his point: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/515718-newbie-student-mafia-xxiv?page=59#1163 1) That doesn't make me scum. I had, and still have actually, this idea that I can't understand how DF couldn't townread marg based on his newbieness; and actually, how he could compare mahrgell play to his scumplay in his first scumgame when it's super different. 1c) Same point as above. 2) He said he didn't think my ExO read was weird.
1. "doesn't make me scum" - Doesn't make you town either, hun.
You are oversimplifying mahrgell's point which is that you do things that don't actually have to be done. Voting for ExO after he was getting lynched, defending mahrgell when nearly everyone town-read him at that point - neither of those things were actually necessary or really help town.
1c) See my previous post for my attitude on this.
2. He also said that he didn't know the proper procedure for EOD voting. See Point 1. I'll concede that this is not a strictly scum-indicative point, however.
On November 07 2016 19:02 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2016 04:09 NeverUnlucky wrote:I've re-read EoD, and noticed a few things. While myself, DF, and Calix said that we were thinking/starting to think that ExO was town, only Rels and TT were still confident in ExO flipping scum. Tictock seemed to be tunneled. He did not bring new points to the table, just said that he was confident in the lynch. Rels, however, was bringing new arguments he did not share before EOD. It looked like he was making an impromptu case on ExO and that he was scavenging for reasons to still scum-read him to ignore the town tone ExO conveyed. Here are his posts: On November 05 2016 01:49 Rels wrote:On November 05 2016 01:19 ExO_ wrote:
I just woke up, and I have to run errands. I'll probably be back before EoD but I can't swear to it. What I will say is this:
I came into the thread just saying whatever I felt like. It's how I always play town. I don't try to carefully construct my posts I just say whats on my mind. I did a lot of OMGUS. When I finally sat and calmly looked at the game, I put a little suspicion on DF/Skynx because of short filter, and rels for a similar reason. But I've been attacked for switching views, for not tunneling, for tunneling at the start, and a whole variety of other things.
I don't know exactly how I could defend myself at this point. I've done my best to make you realize that I'm town. But a LOT of people are tunneling on me. I'm not sure what else I'd have to do to prove I'm town.
The idea that I had a scum slip is a complete joke. If I die today:
Lynch TT/Rels. Both are experienced townies yet are moronically pushing this lynch. Especially TT. After that I would look for people who coasted and just hopped on the wagon day 1.
Do not Lynch Calix: Calix is the most most obviously confirmed town here. I want to say NU as well because of filter length, but I'm not sure.
Anywho I'm running some errands now like I said. I should be back before EoD but my motivation to play this game is basically out the window. This is so bad. This martiring won't get you through this lynch. You're saying you can't defend yourself 'cause you're attacked whatever thing you chose to do; well, you could defend yourself by pointing out WHY other people are scummy. In this very post you admit that your OMGUS was bad; that after re evaluating you think one of DF / Skynx / Rels are probably scum; THEN you go on "lynch TT and Rels 'cause they should know better than pushing me" which is the FUCKING DEFINITION OF OMGUS. The last time you've stated reasons for your reads was your NU read yesterday. Since then it has been either OMGUS or filter size. On November 05 2016 01:53 Rels wrote:On November 05 2016 01:21 Skynx wrote:
I mean Exo did some bad stuff guys, as i quoted previous page.
However, can someone please give me some solid arguments that makes him objective scum like TT and NU?
Other than him being defensive all the time which is not even a reason anymore and makes sense as everyone is scumreading him. - has claimed that his aggression towards Calix at the beginning of the game was fake and just here to provoke reaction, which is something scum always say to explain themselves out of a bad push - has forgotten that he wanted to attack NU and foreman during his sleep and went to attack TT with no reasonning - has forgotten he liked Skynx and listed him as potential scum - has only posted to defend himself yesterday, when Calix intervened to give him some breathing room, he just disappeared instead of doing stuff - martyring, admitting the OMGUS was bad, then OMGUSING some more in the next paragraph (TT and Rels should know better!) Foreman was conveniently afk. I have nothing to respond this. Saying that i scavenged reasons to scumread ExO is again a shitty narrative. I didn't scavenge reasons to scumread ExO, I had reasons to scumread ExO. And I didn't find his tone super townie at EoD, a scum in the same situation could have done the very same things he did to try and survive by appeal to emotion.
Noted. I don't know how to respond to "I have nothing to say here" posts in any case.
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On November 07 2016 19:06 Calix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 18:55 Rels wrote:On November 07 2016 18:21 Calix wrote:And again, if you thought that the following post was shitty then why wouldn't that be part of your "Calix could be scum" narrative...? Did you think it was shitty in a town-motivated way or what? (also I'd like your response to the discussion about it that followed + the discussion that followed on from when NU said "Rels' reaction to ExO at EOD was suspicious") On November 05 2016 07:12 Calix wrote:
Okay so here's what I think. I don't see anything that really gives me town vibes from Rels, he's in my POE reads and I don't really like him. Kind of want to sleep soon so have some bulletpoints:
1. He feels like he has an agenda with his posts. I get this impression from how strongly he emphasises certain points compared to others. It's like he's trying to achieve X but is also trying to hide that he's trying to achieve X. Examples that pinged me include the following
A) his town-read on me. He really wanted me to know about that. Nobody really needed like, four reasons for why I am town when nobody scum-read me at all at that point and it's not like I need to be defended. Terrible priorities at best, scum pocketing me at worst.
B) his town-read on Foreman. He defends Foreman because of his tone which I'm noting because I don't think he's ever used tone to read anyone else and he seems really invested in that read. This is a very weak point by itself but I'm wondering if it's an example of Rels showing inherent bias when reading players.
c) his discredits of Skynx. I'm referring to EOD where he was saying "well Skynx defending ExO isn't a town tell because Skynx would be aware of how that would look to everyone so it's null" which pinged me because he scum-read ExO so why the fuck would he care about how ExO read Skynx if he thinks ExO is mafia? And who thinks that saying "well this thing that you think is townie is actually null" is a good idea BEFORE someone has flipped anyway? I think Rels knew that ExO would flip town and didn't want Skynx getting town cred for defending the ML.
2. His progression with ExO/ darthfoley. While Rels is attacking darthfoley consistently, he didn't have a problem with switching to ExO by making a case. What's the problem there? ExO was already the leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that. And he kept that reasoning in mind but I don't get why he felt the need to switch to ExO when he had that VT claim town-read and felt that DF was scummier. Yep this post is shitty but I don't think it's particulary scummy. If you want t aresponse: A) There is no point here. I'm attentive to any towntells you might have 'cause you're a very good scum players. B) Dunno what to say about that. I thought foreman was town because of his tone. It was not a strong read. C) An example of a shitty narrative. I said what I thought, you are making it fit into a scum motivation. 2) OK this might be scummy. This is false : "he leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that." My reasonning for gradually scumreading ExO is super clear so there is nothing weird about it. You're stretching your point here to again making it fit to a scum motivation, but this time you're not telling the truth. You don't understand why I switched to ExO ? Okay but that doesn't explain why you didn't acknowledge it to begin with...? A) My point is that you over-emphasised your town read on me for no reason and it looks like pocketing. How is that not a point? And do you think I just made up those 'town tells' now or something? B) You said "I think his tone is super townie" - this isn't a strong read HOW? I notice that you are now shying away from the strong language that you used at the start of the game between voting for ExO, calling me 'almost lock town' and now backing away from that and claiming that your Foreman read 'wasn't a strong one'. I'm calling bullshit here. Your strongest stances at present are "NU/ TT are obvious town" and "Skynx is scummy" which are obvious and unoriginal stances. C) No, I demand an explanation. What the fuck were you trying to achieve with those posts about Skynx at EOD? 2. Where is the falsehood? You were one of the last voters. Your vote wasn't required to lynch ExO and you haven't said why you felt that you had to vote for him. You had previously stated a town-read on ExO. There was no need to make a case like that and vote for him, that is my point.
A) This is not a point because it is not scummy. And no the towntells are still here hence why I townrean you. Not as strongly as others though.
B) This isn't a strong read period. There were D1 reads. Unless you make the point that people read shouldn't change during the game then you have no point.
C) I already explained it: "I said what I thought". There is no more to it.
2) So ? I scumread ExO and I wanted him lynched at EOD. If I didn't scumread ExO I would have fought for another lynch. Since I scumread ExO I was OK with the lynch. Saying that I did it only to ... IDK what's your point actually, being in the spotlight for being the last voter, is a shitty narrative. If you think my ExO read was useless, qoute my posts about hima nd prove it.
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Calix, since one of your point is taht I hang back and only does thing that are not impactful, did you check any of my scumgames ?
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On November 07 2016 19:14 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 19:06 Calix wrote:On November 07 2016 18:55 Rels wrote:On November 07 2016 18:21 Calix wrote:And again, if you thought that the following post was shitty then why wouldn't that be part of your "Calix could be scum" narrative...? Did you think it was shitty in a town-motivated way or what? (also I'd like your response to the discussion about it that followed + the discussion that followed on from when NU said "Rels' reaction to ExO at EOD was suspicious") On November 05 2016 07:12 Calix wrote:
Okay so here's what I think. I don't see anything that really gives me town vibes from Rels, he's in my POE reads and I don't really like him. Kind of want to sleep soon so have some bulletpoints:
1. He feels like he has an agenda with his posts. I get this impression from how strongly he emphasises certain points compared to others. It's like he's trying to achieve X but is also trying to hide that he's trying to achieve X. Examples that pinged me include the following
A) his town-read on me. He really wanted me to know about that. Nobody really needed like, four reasons for why I am town when nobody scum-read me at all at that point and it's not like I need to be defended. Terrible priorities at best, scum pocketing me at worst.
B) his town-read on Foreman. He defends Foreman because of his tone which I'm noting because I don't think he's ever used tone to read anyone else and he seems really invested in that read. This is a very weak point by itself but I'm wondering if it's an example of Rels showing inherent bias when reading players.
c) his discredits of Skynx. I'm referring to EOD where he was saying "well Skynx defending ExO isn't a town tell because Skynx would be aware of how that would look to everyone so it's null" which pinged me because he scum-read ExO so why the fuck would he care about how ExO read Skynx if he thinks ExO is mafia? And who thinks that saying "well this thing that you think is townie is actually null" is a good idea BEFORE someone has flipped anyway? I think Rels knew that ExO would flip town and didn't want Skynx getting town cred for defending the ML.
2. His progression with ExO/ darthfoley. While Rels is attacking darthfoley consistently, he didn't have a problem with switching to ExO by making a case. What's the problem there? ExO was already the leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that. And he kept that reasoning in mind but I don't get why he felt the need to switch to ExO when he had that VT claim town-read and felt that DF was scummier. Yep this post is shitty but I don't think it's particulary scummy. If you want t aresponse: A) There is no point here. I'm attentive to any towntells you might have 'cause you're a very good scum players. B) Dunno what to say about that. I thought foreman was town because of his tone. It was not a strong read. C) An example of a shitty narrative. I said what I thought, you are making it fit into a scum motivation. 2) OK this might be scummy. This is false : "he leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that." My reasonning for gradually scumreading ExO is super clear so there is nothing weird about it. You're stretching your point here to again making it fit to a scum motivation, but this time you're not telling the truth. You don't understand why I switched to ExO ? Okay but that doesn't explain why you didn't acknowledge it to begin with...? A) My point is that you over-emphasised your town read on me for no reason and it looks like pocketing. How is that not a point? And do you think I just made up those 'town tells' now or something? B) You said "I think his tone is super townie" - this isn't a strong read HOW? I notice that you are now shying away from the strong language that you used at the start of the game between voting for ExO, calling me 'almost lock town' and now backing away from that and claiming that your Foreman read 'wasn't a strong one'. I'm calling bullshit here. Your strongest stances at present are "NU/ TT are obvious town" and "Skynx is scummy" which are obvious and unoriginal stances. C) No, I demand an explanation. What the fuck were you trying to achieve with those posts about Skynx at EOD? 2. Where is the falsehood? You were one of the last voters. Your vote wasn't required to lynch ExO and you haven't said why you felt that you had to vote for him. You had previously stated a town-read on ExO. There was no need to make a case like that and vote for him, that is my point. A) This is not a point because it is not scummy. And no the towntells are still here hence why I townrean you. Not as strongly as others though. B) This isn't a strong read period. There were D1 reads. Unless you make the point that people read shouldn't change during the game then you have no point. C) I already explained it: "I said what I thought". There is no more to it. 2) So ? I scumread ExO and I wanted him lynched at EOD. If I didn't scumread ExO I would have fought for another lynch. Since I scumread ExO I was OK with the lynch. Saying that I did it only to ... IDK what's your point actually, being in the spotlight for being the last voter, is a shitty narrative. If you think my ExO read was useless, qoute my posts about hima nd prove it.
A) "It's not scummy"
BUT HOW IS IT TOWNIE? What is your fucking problem? It's seriously not hard to just tell me why you felt that several posts emphasising my town alignment when nobody was doubting this was necessary. If you're town, you must have had some town-motivated reason for doing this, yes?
B) I don't get what you are saying here. So it WAS a strong read for you or are you saying that you exaggerated your reads because it was Day 1? My point still stands about your boring, unoriginal viewpoints as of late.
C) "I said what I thought" isn't an explanation. I don't understand why a townie would go around and say "Skynx's defense of ExO says nothing about ExO's alignment/ Skynx isn't confirmed town if ExO is town" and all that. Instead of explaining it to me, you're shutting me down by saying "well it's just my opinion man".
2) You are missing the point, perhaps intentionally since I don't think you're a complete moron. But sure, I will look at your ExO posts later.
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EPT
