EPT[M][Cap] Tortoise Mafia - Page 30
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LightningStrike
United States14276 Posts
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Tumblewood
United States3709 Posts
On April 20 2016 08:11 DoYouHas wrote: You expressed an opinion about Plynching and then joke-scummed Damdred. The opinion has nothing to do with Damdred, he just prompted it. Gum asked Damd to give him a reason to think HTS was more likely to be scum for real. Then, after his question is blown off with another joke, goes back to a joking tone and vote. It is the shift from a pressuring tone back to a joking tone for no reason that caught my eye. Long explanation for a small feeling, but whatever. this is a good post. at least one and a half town points for this one. On April 21 2016 13:20 DoYouHas wrote: Caught up. I'll filter dive tomorrow to really start sorting people before the deadline. HtS is my top town read. I really liked how she pursued her scumleans on LS and TW. She kept talking to them. She wasn't trying to convince them that they were scum, but she was trying to get more information out of them. Implies to me that she cares more about solving than displaying her stances. Shape is the person I'm most suspicious of, doesn't seem to be doing much and his posts are overly self-conscious, especially for someone that hasn't been seriously pressured yet. I'm a little worried about Damdred. He was very quick to help Koshi against HtS and seemed like he dropped the pressure as soon as Koshi(who I'm leaning town on) wasn't leading the charge anymore. I like how DYH evaluates HtS here, but it's nothing spectacular. I don't oppose the fact that you read Shape like that, but tbh I don't think that reasoning is very good for evaluating him. On April 21 2016 13:27 DoYouHas wrote: Actually, I want to revise what I said about Shape. It isn't so much that he is self-conscious. It is more that he is just talking about himself a lot, even after the beginning posts. Filtering LS to see if I want to sheep HtS. Damdred said something about clarification being townie, and I definitely agree. On April 22 2016 06:55 DoYouHas wrote: @koshi, Shape talking about himself a bunch while not being productive is indicative of a scum mindset. It implies that he is worried about how the thread is perceiving him, which is more likely to come from scum. @the rest of you, Shape's read on me is seriously suspicious: I had just put suspicion on him, my doing so became a point of contention between HtS and Koshi(his top town read). He glazes over my pressure. His entire list post is yelling, "your right DYH, I'm going to fix what you just attacked me for". Which would be all well and good, but then I wouldn't be null to him. I would be scum pushing a bad wagon or I would be misguided town that should be reasoned with. I just don't understand the logic behind this read. On April 22 2016 07:28 DoYouHas wrote: There is something wrong here, either in my reads or in this wagon. Top scum is voting with top town on someone I considered nullish. I guess kinda town for trying to evaluate whether the wagon is on the right track. DYH's filter is decent, but it was also decent in XX where he was scum. I am seeing a lot of parallels between the two games, and if I see DYH-- or anyone, for that matter-- skating by with a tiny filter by D3 or D4 I'm confiscating their town points. Not a good lynch now though. | ||
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GlowingBear
Brazil12446 Posts
On April 25 2016 02:37 Tumblewood wrote: The case on GlowingBear I originally liked this post, but now I'm just okay with it. Seeing SL flip has made me consider whether this was a bus, and I must say I'm not sure. It would be a rather premature bus, though, so I'll dole out one townie point for this. this is weird because GB made these nice points on SL and then played them down as not very important. I revoke the town point and substitute a scum point. this whole post is good. yea I want to keep GB around for a while. I don't even know who this post is talking to but I like it. GB is probably town, or if he's not, a scum taking advantage of a poor town presence a la Artanis in XX. He's worth keeping around for a while because he's the only one actually doing anything besides maybe Koshi and me. I also can't decide which pains me more: to see Koshi wasting posts like this, or to see everyone else be so conservative/AFK when they're never going to hit that 40+5 post cap anyway. This is a dangerously poor town atmosphere that could lead to an easy and unopposed mafia victory like in NSM XX. 18(?) That post was meant to HTS You see, I have this pool of possible scum: HTS, Koshi and gumshoe. Gumshoe is basically for the hammer and for the martyring which looks bad imo. I'd expect him to fight his lynch with all his might if he was town. But he isn't. Still, I don't really know if he is scum. I'm really uncomfortable. I still don't trust Koshi. But his explanation to me wasn't that bad. Still, I'd rather prefer his lunch than gunshoe's. I voted more to catch reactions, especially if he was Mafia - I was expecting that Mafia would jump on me for voting gumshoe out of the blue, but it didn't happen. It makes me very uneasy. HTS posts looks convoluted to me. That assumption that there is certainly a Mafia between the underwhelming is very... Suspicious. Especially if DYH is in fact town. Plus, I remember she kinda defended SL when I first called him out? I'm not sure, but it felt she was trying to soft defend him. I'm uncomfortable with DYH. His play in here looks very familiar to the last one where he was Mafia with Artanis. So yes. This is where I'm at. | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
##unvote ##vote Gumshoe | ||
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
Seeing a few arguments about people being underwhelming, it's a poor argument to have been made <10h into the game, but that's just me. SL, DYH, GB based on their openers are all people that I'd need to see more content from. SL in particular has both active and lazy town and scum metas. Note the bolded, she lists a bunch of names, some of which must be town, but directs our attention to sl, basically saying, look at this guy, he deserves scrutiny. It's not all out bussy, it's like shes asking other people to keep an eye on him which is not at all scummy as if she was intending to buss all out, she would probs do so herself to ensure cred. This matters because hts is a dominant force in thread and she knows that, when she directs people to look at someone, they are likely to do just that. It's a detail, but an important one methinks. ------------------------------------------------ Oh also theres been some questions as to why I focused on the nk wifom stuff so much, the answer is sheer laziness. An nk is a really easy thing to theorize about even without that much thread info. I talked about it alot cause I couldn't be assed to really dig into the game. -------------------------- ls The way ls tried to shape up the lynch to be between him and hts is the opposite of scummy, he is definitely one of my top towns and an uptick in typical activity (especially non blatant spam activity, ls has at least 6 very large decent quality wots) is usually very townie, as the urge to post more reads in thread is a townie impulse (until you get to the highest levels of course and not many people in this game, myself included, are there) ------------------------------------------------------ Gb-----, I fucking hate attacking players who are attacking me, I hate it because I feel robbed of objectivity. I only did it to tic cause it was noteworthy how he doubled back, and his first opinion felt informed by a pounce, but the rest of his stuff seems fine. (will go into that later) But at this point, I have to face the fact that those pushing me with certainty have a good shot of bieng scum, as I look terrible so they dont have to worry about me flipping green making them look bad, as they whole town will be shocked when I do and so they are free to push me as they please without fear of recourse. if theres a scum between tic and gb, it's honestly gb. This is going to sound weird giving what we know of how things actually went down, but gbs arguments against sl are terrible and reek of contrived red framing Ok since SL never answered me, I must say I don't like his posts He has an opening calling Damdred "null" (the only thing I can understabd from bolding a name) because damdred was wasting posts. This is bad because: 1) It is impossible to have contentful posts in the beginning of the game 2) Calling someone null is saying something someone did is not alignment indicative, which means (I) he is wasting a post because he is saying nothing contributive, and (ii) he is trying to look contributive while saying nothing at all. Wanting to lynch LS in the beginning of the game for wasting posts just reinforces this perspective There are two massive leaps in logic here, first off, gb assumes that the grey bolding sl uses means null, the problem with this is gb has a very distinct opinion of what null means. He asserts that calling something null is a sin, when even a smidge of thought of what sl is actually saying dispels that. Saying someone is blatantly wasting posts, and greying them out for it is effectively saying that they are acting in a manner that is scummy but that does not 100 percent make them scum. Ie they are worth keeping an eye on but not worth drowning in accusations this very moment. sl, regardless of his alignment, is pointing out damdreds behaviors because the game has just started and hes offering an opinion on how he feels about some elses play. Sometimes we find things odd or shady and want to communicate that without totally alienating a potential townie. Its something scum might do, but just as well something townies do as well, the fact that sl was scum means nothing. gbs reaction to it is totally out of proportion and utterly insincere. He also had to make multiple assumptions about what sl was trying to say ,and what calling something null actually means, to allow himself this reaction. It just seems so wierd and blown out of proportion, more like something I would write / : does not at all warrant the "are you kidding me" gb gives out. None of this would bother me, except for the fact that gb never ended up voting sl especially because he said he would sheep damdred I'm voting with Damdred because he is my strongest townread atm damdred voted sl, regardless of how fake gb seemed about sl from my view, gb clearly was passionate about him as he wasted like 2 posts out of pure outrage twoards sl. instead he voted ls and stayed there, as you know ls is one of my top town reads coming out of day 1, so what does gb see that I dont? In the beginning he seems to think ls is town via reverse association with sl Wanting to lynch LS in the beginning of the game for wasting posts just reinforces this perspective Later on, he posts a big case on ls and me and abandons his pursuit of sl to do so. He seems to think were scum together, because of how fast ls abandoned his read on me, note, I abandoned my read on damdred just as fast, this somehow makes damdred town, but me scum -_- in general early game is a time when we know nothing about each other and sometimes we abandon early reads the instant actual content comes to light, you know, kinda like how you seemingly abandoned your read of sl entirely after realizing… what about him? Regardless, the above isnt the damning bit. Here TT notices the same thing as me on LS. He also seems to be thinking critically about every person in the game. Makes me feel he is most likely town. A weak read, but a town one he claims tic tock sees what he saw, but theres no mention of what he saw or agrees with in this post or any before it. So I assume it has to be one of the two points tic raised here, 1: That ls is wasteful (tinfoil hate jokes) Didnt you town read ls earlier for sl going after him for spam posts? When did you invert your opinion? 2: That ls was pouncing on me. As for 2, tick claims ls is scummy for pouncing me and reads me as town. Gb totally disagrees with this as we saw earlier, he thinks me and ls are scum together. Damdred DYH Tumblewood gumshoe LightningStrike Tic and gb seemingly both have different versions on what happened, tic thinks im town and ls was scum pressing, but then what gb sees is ls doubling back because were both scum together. Yet he agreed with tic ? Why didn't he mention this key distinction then? Why didn't he clarify what it was he was agreeing with when he seemingly didnt buy tics point on ls spamming(seeing sl as scum for going after that earlier) and didn't agree with tic conclusions about what ls and me were all about? Did he even read what tic posted? smells like..................... contradiction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! / : Seems like hes contorting thier views to fit (though they really dont) so that he can vote on the guy they both agree on, ls, and through this all his sl read is seemingly lost entirely, and is no longer even a vote option for gb. Also this post is terrible regarding me. Bad backtracking. Do you want or you don't want to have discussion ongoing? It makes me feel you actually wanted to justify your vote to LS instead of just pushing a discussion further. Townie points taken away. Null leaning to scum. Wtf is this, of course I want to discuss, thats the game, I made a vote to see how people would react, got the townie reaction from dam and backed off as theres no point chasing those I dont think are scum (same story with tic tock honestly) gb is scum reading me for changing my opinion(which isnt bound to be that great at games start anyways) and explaining why I did so(which was to look for reactions, like ls’s, to you know, discuss). Hwat. In general gb seems to go after people for not constantly being at one anothers throats... sure scum can be timid, but thats hardly a rule. Also wierd was gbs attitude to the lynch I dislike this post from Koshi. He points out problems with LS and Shape but doesn't conclude nothing from it. Then he proceeds to vote... Ta-da! Fecalfeast. This post is a good example of red framing, he makes it look like koshi did something wrong here with his assesment of ls and shape, when he in fact did not, he concluded they looked scummy, but could be town for thier entrances, then said that ff might be town for his post, but was the most likely scum of the three. Also gb has never mentioned ff once till now, can we assume he town reads ff for this? Why hasent he mentioned this read yet (I looked)? This lunch is obviously not hitting mafia Judging by this post and the last, gb clearly did not think ff was mafia, so why did he do so little to save him? Finally, theres the fact of how his sl read disapearing act has finished completley by the end of night 1 Mafia could pretty much pile up on SL's counter wagon. This post seems to indicate even that he thinks sl is town, why? Whats changed? This is the last we heard since this sudden flip I know the case on SL isn't the strongest. Although I think his attitude was suspicious, I only wanted to keep developing discussion. I also like to push a target in a way everything is explained in details, whatever slignment he is, because I think mafia has a hard time covering all aspects of their stories. Regardless if a post is NAI or AI, a hard push will almost always reveal inconsistencies if the player's intention is made up When did his attitude become not at least suspicious Gb? Why no push at night? What really ticked me off about gb was this though. 17 Actually it was nothing, I was just checking if you were looking at the thread but not doing nothing to fight your lynch. Thank you for your attention. This is such bullshit. If I dont respond, I die anyways, but if I do, seemingly thats more damning? Gb isnt using this to convince himself of my alignment, hes reading into the doubt in thread and using this as a means to ease it no matter how I respond. There is no correct answer to what gb did, therefore it is null, but he treats it as if THIS is somehow what makes me scum If I don't respond, he says see? He doesnt care, if I do he says see? Hes lurking. This is not a tactic to nail scum, this is showmanship designed to ease towns into a mislynch. And I want you to know gb no matter what alignment you are, I would have probably not bothered to post at all (pretty tired of maf after normal )  if you had not shown your hand with such a base/shitty tactic. Just want you to know that.When I flip green, this is the fuck you lynch. Why? 1: For attacking sl for contrived reasons, then dropping his read at the drop of a hat. 2: For all his scum reads coming down to framing certain actions as scummy, when they are in fact null at most times at best. 3: For agreeing with tic when in actuality they agreed basically only on ls pouncing (though had hugely differing opinions on what that meant) just so he could contort thier views to match. 4: For suddenly treating sl as town come night? Really gotta drive home how wierd his silence on sl is. 5: For seemingly knowing ffs alignment despite never talking about it or really pushing against his lynch besides the bare min for I told you so rights. 6: for pushing dam into town reading him. Nevermind damdy. I think you're town so it is no use to argue on something that won't lead anywhere. Do you think I'm town? I wanna bounce some thoughts with you if you're willing to trust me. What are your reads atm? I really have a feeling that we have mafia between koshi/gumshoe/LS. Do you have any reason to disagree? Theres probs more, but this is already pretty huge / : his scum reads against hts and koshi are meh at the least. (note this is important, as the prevailing strat on tl mafia is to kill those accusing you, so getting dam to town read him before he dies is useful) more reads coming soon. (oh also big walls of text before me dying are things I do as scum, this does not make me town) | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [GB's case] + On April 24 2016 06:10 GlowingBear wrote: Well, you can't really tell someone is town by his way of posting when you're playing a post-restricted game. You're basically said he looks town by game events and that makes him mafia (so, meta-read). But you've just posted this: So what is the real reason you're voting Shape? Is that because he looks underwhelming or because of that bad meta? Also, you said you're also voting Shape because people are pretty townie to you. So how am I "meh"? Why are you not willing to vote me? Isn't "meh" basically "underwhelming"? Which means there are more underwhelming people in the game by your own standards. So why going against Shapelog, who actually posted a lot Day1? By normal standards, I am kinda underwhelming this game based on my inactivity (and I'm inactive because I've been busy), DYH is also underwhelming. Why are you not talking about them? Why didn't you lynch SL who was pretty much underwhelming day1? Why did you pressured people asking them "why aren't you voting SL"? Also, are you sure you find people townie? : So if gumshoe is looking bad... how are you townreading everyone? Why aren't you pressuring/voting gumshoe WHO IS LOOKING BAD instead of simply voting Shapelog who has been UNDERWHELMING? See, Koshi, your thought process isn't clear. It looks like you throw thoughts out of the blue without any kind of consistency. You're following your own agenda. That's why I think you're mafia. + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2016 07:28 DoYouHas wrote: Koshi - I want to say Koshi's active and aggressive style is town. But he jumped up and down on me for valid points against Shape. He jumped up and down on HtS for the null read of FF while ignoring things I thought pointed to her being town. I don't think we get into the EoD we had without at least 1 scum in the movers and shakers. (Koshi, HtS, Damd, and maybe TT) Koshi pushed the lynch of 2 town for sure and probably 3. He is attacking town, leading lynches on town and after being proven wrong on FF he still wants to off HtS instead of stepping back and reassessing. Thinking he could be scum. Koshi led the wagon off of SL, attacks town all of day 1, and is very inconsistent day 2. He is pushing a scum agenda. ##Vote: Koshi | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
GB is solidly in the town column for me after his case on Koshi. | ||
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
On April 25 2016 04:56 DoYouHas wrote: I get the reasons why gum is a good lynch, I agree with them, but I would rather lynch Koshi. + Show Spoiler [GB's case] + On April 24 2016 06:10 GlowingBear wrote: Well, you can't really tell someone is town by his way of posting when you're playing a post-restricted game. You're basically said he looks town by game events and that makes him mafia (so, meta-read). But you've just posted this: So what is the real reason you're voting Shape? Is that because he looks underwhelming or because of that bad meta? Also, you said you're also voting Shape because people are pretty townie to you. So how am I "meh"? Why are you not willing to vote me? Isn't "meh" basically "underwhelming"? Which means there are more underwhelming people in the game by your own standards. So why going against Shapelog, who actually posted a lot Day1? By normal standards, I am kinda underwhelming this game based on my inactivity (and I'm inactive because I've been busy), DYH is also underwhelming. Why are you not talking about them? Why didn't you lynch SL who was pretty much underwhelming day1? Why did you pressured people asking them "why aren't you voting SL"? Also, are you sure you find people townie? : So if gumshoe is looking bad... how are you townreading everyone? Why aren't you pressuring/voting gumshoe WHO IS LOOKING BAD instead of simply voting Shapelog who has been UNDERWHELMING? See, Koshi, your thought process isn't clear. It looks like you throw thoughts out of the blue without any kind of consistency. You're following your own agenda. That's why I think you're mafia. + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2016 07:28 DoYouHas wrote: Koshi - I want to say Koshi's active and aggressive style is town. But he jumped up and down on me for valid points against Shape. He jumped up and down on HtS for the null read of FF while ignoring things I thought pointed to her being town. I don't think we get into the EoD we had without at least 1 scum in the movers and shakers. (Koshi, HtS, Damd, and maybe TT) Koshi pushed the lynch of 2 town for sure and probably 3. He is attacking town, leading lynches on town and after being proven wrong on FF he still wants to off HtS instead of stepping back and reassessing. Thinking he could be scum. Koshi led the wagon off of SL, attacks town all of day 1, and is very inconsistent day 2. He is pushing a scum agenda. ##Vote: Koshi Absolutely not, Koshi is a similar player to rayn in some ways, checked his games, he can be very aggressive. He def doesn't deserve to be lynched today and I was just as guilty for leading the lynch off sl as he was. You are not lynching someone who actually wants and is playing the game(and is probs town) before me. Also scum are not inconsistent here, they are decisive, this lynch is working out for them currently. | ||
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Tictock
United States6051 Posts
On April 25 2016 02:49 LightningStrike wrote: I honestly getting weird feels about lynching gunshoe and the fact he's fine with being lynched is very odd for a scum to do unless their name is kurumi who claimed scum to get rid of sicklucker and Superbia in Storm. But on the other hand sicklucker pile was quick and he tried to get the lynch off him which was successful on his part. Very weird feels for me about this lynch indeed. This is also in response to Tumbles last post as well. Its kinda odd, but tbh I think its even stranger behavior for town. I see he just posted a WoT with some reads ( I only have a ten min break so will only be able to read part of it before it's over) but he waited to ~2 hrs before the deadline to put in effort. I just don't buy town feeling like they are in as bad a spot as gumshoe is saying he is in. Like there was a game I played where I was the gunsmith, Onegu (as scum) faked a redcheck on me and I derped and said something about being a miller then claimed my role. Everyone thought. I was so full of shit Damdred even fake CC'd my claim as VT and made it so that everytime I posted everyone was just like " why are you even trying scum?" Even in that situation I kept posting and sharing my thoughts and reads because I knew that eventually I would flip town and those might be useful. I don't see that from gum here, just a lot of " woe is me" type posts and then w/e he has in that WoT. I'm only going to be around breifly before EoD to reevaluate and look at what happens in the next few hours, but I feel like we kinda have to lynch gum at this point because he never took the oppitunity to do anything till now and we really shouldn't let another EoD like D1 happen, especially in the case that gum is scum and is hoping to play on sympathy and the odd feeling of a slow day. | ||
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
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Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
I'm here. Catching up now. | ||
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
On April 25 2016 04:59 Tictock wrote: This is also in response to Tumbles last post as well. Its kinda odd, but tbh I think its even stranger behavior for town. I see he just posted a WoT with some reads ( I only have a ten min break so will only be able to read part of it before it's over) but he waited to ~2 hrs before the deadline to put in effort. I just don't buy town feeling like they are in as bad a spot as gumshoe is saying he is in. Like there was a game I played where I was the gunsmith, Onegu (as scum) faked a redcheck on me and I derped and said something about being a miller then claimed my role. Everyone thought. I was so full of shit Damdred even fake CC'd my claim as VT and made it so that everytime I posted everyone was just like " why are you even trying scum?" Even in that situation I kept posting and sharing my thoughts and reads because I knew that eventually I would flip town and those might be useful. I don't see that from gum here, just a lot of " woe is me" type posts and then w/e he has in that WoT. I'm only going to be around breifly before EoD to reevaluate and look at what happens in the next few hours, but I feel like we kinda have to lynch gum at this point because he never took the oppitunity to do anything till now and we really shouldn't let another EoD like D1 happen, especially in the case that gum is scum and is hoping to play on sympathy and the odd feeling of a slow day. Never just say this is townie or this scummy. We have an archive for a reason, I have behaved exactly this way as town and scum before. Don't lynch me for how you interpret my behaviour, you've never played with me and you haven't bothered to learn my wierd meta. Lynch me for my actions, which are terrible, so yeah probs just lynch me cause you don't want the doubt that I tricked you lingering, and unless you kill gb or fedie, this is probs a mislynch so it's better if I does : P Coming out with a caseon fedie soon. | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
On April 25 2016 05:00 gumshoe wrote: I'll consent to lynching fedie or gb, otherwise it's better to just kill me (the scummiest townie) cause I don't see a red flip coming from anyone else. You just listed two people I think are town. Aggression is not exclusively a townie trait and it doesn't make Koshi town. | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
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gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
On April 25 2016 05:06 DoYouHas wrote: You just listed two people I think are town. Aggression is not exclusively a townie trait and it doesn't make Koshi town. I regard Koshis play as generally townie for several reasons, sl was a crap shoot, gb was killed pretty much in the exact circumstances sl was in the other game, he flipped town. There's no way to really read players like that, so while it's tempting to say, he did this therefore he's scum, the situation does not warrant it. Koshi is also town because of his interactions with hts day 1. I don't think scum Koshi would have picked a fight with the most formidable player then backed off like he did, Also gb is pushing Koshi hard enough that via that read methinks Koshi must be town. Koshi is null at worst, you can in no way justify killing me before him. Also, it's to be expected that you town read scum, scum are tricksy, they are far more capable of waving the waters of suspicion as they have all the answers. The people you dont suspect after day1 usually have at least one red among them / : we may both be right, we may both be wrong, bottom line is, these are the people I'm willing to lynch, otherwise better I just die than watch a townier player than me go down. | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
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LightningStrike
United States14276 Posts
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
Does it seem likely that scum gumshoe calls the wagon on Koshi dumpster, when that's the only other one going? | ||
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