EPTAs long as you haven't been smoking whatever Artanis has been smoking ...
[M][T] The New Personality Mafia
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
As long as you haven't been smoking whatever Artanis has been smoking ... | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
[serious]This game started while I was out with friends, and am currently quite toasty. Will read tomorrow and revert.[/serious] | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
Geript wishes he was me. | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
1. Don't play mafia when you're drunk. I basically just skimmed the threads last night, and missed most of it apparently. 2. The set-up of this game seems to me to be inherently mafia favoured. As town, everyone is mostly just excited to troll whoever's name they pulled up for all of the things that that person is perceived to do badly. I did exactly that last night. But (I) that distracts from finding mafia, (II) it allows mafia to blend in by just carrying along with the jester-like banter and, most importantly, (III) it is hard enough to spot slips or mafia tells in someone when they are just playing normally, let alone when they are impersonating someone else. 3. Following on from 2, I think that the game has to very quickly move towards the stage where town say "okay, screwing around pretending to be X or Y was fun for a day, but it's time to engage try-hard mode now." If we don't, we're going to wander aimlessly towards a lynch deadline with no mafia being pressured, no reads being forced out and generally no progress being made whatsoever. 4. If people continue to insist on posting "in character" much further, I think that is good reason to start scum reading them. 5. 3 and 4 only apply for people who are keen to win. There's nothing wrong with joining the game just to have fun goofing around as someone else. But I'm definitely in the 'tryhard' category, and will be playing as such. 6. I was accused last night by Ritoky of basically doing a bad parody of the person I was assigned. I plead guilty to that, for sure. The fact is, I have played a couple of games with the person I got, and I think they are a good player and they seem to be a nice person. But I don't really *know* them. But there's a broader point here - for newer players (like me) it's hard enough to try and work out whether someone is mafia or town based on their own play, let alone on when that person is being impersonated by someone else. Yeah, if you've played like 30 games with, say, Ritoky, you'd probably be well enough versed in his meta to guess whether someone impersonating him was town or mafia. But I haven't. I don't have any reads yet because I can't identify who people are impersonating and whether or not those impersonations are good or bad and whether or not the things I think that are scum tells are actually just exaggerated parodies (case in point is my crappy attempt at parody last night). It also doesn't help that I haven't played with most of you before, and those of you who I would claim to 'know' better (TT, HTS, Damdred) are all in heavy role-play mode atm. All of the above has led me to the point where I've settled in my mind a little bit more clearly what I am looking for, and I'll try and go back over everything that has gone before this evening. The point of this post was just to get these thoughts out there, because I think they're important. And yes, I do recognise that a long self-analysis meta post can be a scum sign. Hopefully those of you who have played town with me will recognise that I always over-explain/over-think, but also that I like to share my thought processes all the time, even when they aren't super helpful, as that way people can better follow and interpret what I say and do later on. | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
Response to Ritoky's case on me Ritoky accused me of not properly responding to his case on me. So here it is. 1. "Notice me Senpai". I was really drunk (Yamato can attest to this, given my stupid antics in voice mafia). I was trying to do an impression of someone and it was lame. My final sentence (I'll come back tomorrow) was an attempt at an explanation for why I wasn't posting then. If I don't follow up then sure, that's a mafia tell. But if I do, it's NAI. 2. See 1. 3. The only really distinctive thing about the person I rolled (at least that I'm aware of, having only played one serious game with them) is that they claim to be able to soul read you. It was a complete coincidence that you happened to "RNG" me. Indeed, it wouldn't be RNG if you hadn't randomly chosen me. (4) I disagree that people sticking to their roleplay are more likely to be town. As I said before, sticking to a roleplay and pushing lynches for "roleplay lol" reasons is a really easy way to avoid actually playing the game of mafia. I *do* agree that it would be risky IF everyone else wasn't doing it and you were. Plainly that's not the case here. Blending in is much easier if you go along with it, rather than breaking out like I did. (5) I didn't have a scum read on you. I was saying that because I was drunk and because I was trying to copy what the person who I rolled has said before. It was stupid and I shouldn't have done it. See 1. (6) The first thing I ever knew about the "Chezinu" rule was Onegu spamming stupid pictures in Holy Guardians. I have never actually played a game with Chezinu. So I was looking for someone who was doing that. I didn't know that Chezinu's trolling actually involved quasi-stoned ramblings. Obviously now I do know that. Also, I was drunk, and didn't see that people were already tagging Damdred as Chezinu. Tubesock was right - I wasn't seriously reading the thread. Because I was drunk. (7) I disagree that, at the time of Ritoky's first post, this was actually a real mafia game. I've just been through the posts up until that point. Most people hadn't posted anything of substance. Those that had were plainly trying to emulate the person that they had rolled. I can make very little out of it even now, while sober and carefully reading the thread. I had literally no chance last night. See 1. (8) I want to briefly address whether or not Ritoky would pretend to RNG me. I've played with Ritoky twice, but the second (himalayas) doesn't count because I was terrible town in that game until way after he got NKed. But in the first game, which was my first game too, basically I made all sorts of stupid newbie posts and mistakes and ritoky was scum softing me until he got NKed n1. I also said after himalayas that I really struggled because the game was big (although there was much much much more spam in tha game). This game is also big. So I think it's reasonable that he might have tagged me early as easy mis-lynch bait. The fact that I played into his hands with a pretty misguided thread entry only goes to show that he might have been onto something. But ... meh. It's hard for me to judge because he's going after me, so it's difficult to be totally objective. Anyone who was in Holy Guardians (VE, Damdred, TickTock) are better judges of this than me. Current thoughts on the game Disclaimer: I work as a lawyer with pretty long days. I can check the thread and play at lunchtimes, and in a quieter game where I feel more comfortable with my reads, I'm happy to jump into the discourse when I get a moment (bathroom breaks, etc). But I just worked all day and so have spent the evening re-reading the thread and jotting down thoughts. It's easier for me to do this in one massive post than do fifty posts. The Lurkers / Spammers The trouble I am having at the moment is that a lot of people are spamming off-topic one liners, which say nothing and add nothing to the debate. The following people fall squarely into that category: TheShining WaveofShadow yamato ObiWanShinobi Lord Tolkien Beneather KelsierSC Chezinu Vayne Authority The only one of those I have played with before that I can remember is Kelsier. In the one game I played with him (Himalayas) he was town, but basically did the same as he's doing now (contributing nothing, saying nothing). Maybe this is just how he plays. But it's still NAI - lurking is the easiest 'meta' to replicate as either alignment. Beneather literally hasn't posted in the thread at all. Presumably he'll be modkilled. The rest of them have to go into the 'scum lean' pile, in lieu of them having done nothing to deserve a town read. Town Reads JudgeJudy - at a guess I'd say he's impersonating ritoky. And he's doing a good job. Town ritoky is a fairly obvious read, I think (he screws around a little bit, then asks pertinent and cutting questions). That's what JJ is doing here. Geript - Was mostly one-linering until his last two posts, where he offers a sensible set of reads. He says that Ruxx's play is bad/dumb newbie, and that's what I see as well. He questions ritoky's push on me for sensible reasons (albeit that they were already pushed by Breshke). He states the obvious that trying to get a read on Damdred right now is dumb. Damdred is in full-on troll/Chez mode, which has to be entirely NAI (if it continues, it'll be scum, but as I noted above, everyone is still doing the full roleplay thing). I have no idea whether his Chez read is accurate (never having played with Chez), but it feels genuine. Breshke - I'm probably a little bit pocketed, but I like that he started the "what is ritoky really up to" line of thought. Ritoky's push on me is, aside from Ruxx's incredibly weird behaviour, one of the key moments of d1 (For me at least). Breshke challenging it therefore seems towny to me. Scum/Scum lean Rels - His thread entry (#465) was weird. He pushes Ruxxar based on HTS' read, then pushes me based on Ritoky's post. No real evidence of original thought or analysis. Ritoky - Ritoky is one of the best town players that I've seen. When he was town in Holy Guardian, everything he said looking back on it was massively town. He was (after a spammy start) insightful and gave lots of reasons for his reads and interacted with the thread fluidly. Well, this game is the opposite. He is pushing me - fair enough. But, as others have pointed out, what else has he done? I hope that, after I post the fuller response above, he broadens his search a little bit. For now, on the fact that his contribution level is so wildly different to previous games I have seen, I'm thinking he might be covering for a mafia roll. TickTock - Poor TT must be tired of me scum reading him (I have done in both previous games we've played together). This time, however, my reasons are pretty different. Before, I've accused TT of "going 100kph in a 30kph zone". This time, my notes of his key posts are as follows: TE: Calls out Ruxxar for shitty meta list (#387) Weird sexual references, says he likes Ritoky's case on me (#415) Sheeps HTS' read on Ruxx (#467) Tries to read into what Damdred was saying. Says I ignored Damdred. (#475) I really don't think it's possible to read anything into Damdred's play yet. Other than that, he has sheeped two people's cases, and jumped onto the Ruxxar 'wagon' which, as I've said above, is premature. Tubesock - There's a pattern emerging here - everyone who I'm scum reading is scum reading me. Hopefully this isn't because I'm OMGUSing (I haven't really done that in previous games, I don't think, although I've never really been pushed hard before, honestly). Still, Tubesock's contribution here has been to flip-flop on the Chezinu rule (#242, #246), vote for me for not reading the game (fair enough, I suppose, I did miss the Damdred=Chezinu calls). and then to (without giving proper reasons) town read Chez, Breshke, Ritoky, Damdred. (#448) I don't see how anyone can seriously have a strong read on Chez or Damdred right now. Chez hasn't said enough, and Damdred has been impersonating Chez. In that post he also sort of wanders around a TickTock read and ends up nowhere. The rest of his posts are mostly meh questions ("You still scum Damdred? What do you think of TickTock?") (#451). His last post on JJ seemed at least a bit more constructive, but hardly persuasive - JJ has been super towny in spurts, but it's hardly fair to expect someone to be on all day to respond. FecalFeast - This read isn't just because he's rushing around all over the place, changing his reads on a whim. It's also because of his post where he says that "scum are spewing him" as town (#447). It is possible I missed it, but where has anyone been townreading FF? Show me the link and I'll stand corrected, but otherwise I think this reads like a clumbsy way to try and get yourself thought of as town, without actually doing anything. Null Half the Sky - I like HTS OG, we play dota together. So I'm always going to be loath to scum read her. She seems to have at least put some thought into some of her reads (ie ritoky, ruxxar-ish), but others are pretty lacklustre (JJ, shining, Rels). Could be the result of adopting the meta of whoever she rolled. I know HTS is a strong player, so willing to give the benefit of the doubt (ie is playing badly because of role play, rather than because mafia). Ruxxar - I really like what Geript wrote about Ruxxar, it's just too dumb to actually be mafia. More likely it's a weird attempt to emulate meta. But others who have played with him will know better. | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
On August 20 2015 07:26 ObiWanShinobi wrote: "Scum lean on 9 people." Really. :rolleyes: You'll have to do better than that. I see no reason to town read any of the players I listed as lurkers - all have been simply spamming one-liners or otherwise not contributing. I'm sure that some will start contributing once the usual "omg spam/roleplay" phase of d1 comes to an end (which it seems to be), but I'm commenting on things as I see them now. | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
On August 20 2015 07:33 ObiWanShinobi wrote: I don't have a problem with you not reading the lurkers either way, because, frankly, it's mostly true. The fact of the matter is that there are way too many "scum leans" in your list. Narrow it down: who is scummier and why? There are, by my count, five people on my 'scum lean' list (excluding lurkers, obv). There were four mafia in Himalayas, and there were 17 players in that game. There are 21 here, so four or five mafia sounds about right (anyone with more game balancing experience care to weigh in?). Ergo my scum list is probably there or thereabouts in terms of length. Obviously it is pretty unlikely that I just called the entire scum team accurately in my first post of reads (though the post-game cred would be pretty astonishing). I'm not sure whether any of my scum reads are stronger than any others. It is early. I would probably vote for Ritoky over the others, just because of how different he is playing to usual. But there's a way to go in the day yet, and I'm hoping things firm up a little. Sorry if that's wishy-washy, it's just where I am right now. | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
On August 20 2015 15:07 Tictock wrote: Except he posted that 3 hours after his last post, in the middle of conversation that other people were having and then doesn't post again for 2 hours. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/491840-the-new-personality-mafia?page=33#651 I honestly don't get the reason for geripts post here. It's out of place, complains about "no one posting" but doesn't try to engage anyone who IS posting at the time. So if geript really was frustrated why does he complain about something that is clearly not true? Why doesn't he try and engadge people who are around at the time of that post. So on the surface saying "scum wouldn't care to make this post" sounds good, but when you look at that post in context it makes very little sense. Seems like a shitty reason to townread geript to me. Thing is that other players have complained about the meta of the game so far. When I did it, I followed up with a big post with reads etc. Geript didn't exactly post a WoT, but he has been giving reads, appearing to think critically etc. But what about Kelsier? Pretty much all he has said are throwaway remarks about the bad meta of the game. And he always have these without looking to engage anyone. So if you're not also scum reading him as well, that's a double standard. | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
Re spewing- you pointed out two people who had you in their town lists. Thanks. I retract my point, although I will say that neither of the reads you refer to stuck with me because they were throwaway references that were not explained. Is that what people mean by 'spewing'? (Honest question. I assumed it meant posting a lot about someone's alignment, but happy to be corrected.) | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
You said Rit's case "made your dick hard". Okay, so agreeing doesn't necessarily mean you were going to vote that way- perhaps I was using the term "sheeping" too loosely. My point on your interactions with Damdred stands. You were in HG with me, right? Do you remember how pissed I was with Onegu all game for being useless, and how I kept saying we should lynch him not because he was scum, but because it would be impossible to read him through the shit he was saying? I sort of feel the same way about Damdred here. Insofar as your post is an attempt to draw Damdred out, then I can see that's actually helpful. I didn't read it that way at first because what can you really read into his rambling so far, but you could have been pandering to his role play. I guess that means I'll move you back to null. | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
On August 20 2015 16:12 Tictock wrote: So when I was looking at Fidei earlier I couldn't help but notice one of his pregame posts and something he said in his defense. From Pregame: So yea, this is very possible. Obviously this lead me to reading ritoky's filter from the perspective of him being scum pushing the RNG thing as a cover to push someone he thinks will be an easy mislynch. At first it looks promising as it was all rit wanted to talk about in the first half of D1 and even now that I see rit talking about more than his RNG push he isn't really sharing any reads. However I did feel that this defense of the RNG push was pretty decent. It makes sense, it's cleaver and it fits with the overall theme of the game. Honestly this sounds a ton more likely than a scum!ritoky seeing Fidei's pregame post and deciding to push him with RNG. The fact of the matter is rit only claimed something more than RNG after Fidei entered the game, and did so in a fashion that made himself look bad. Thus I find myself still thinking the case rit made is fairly sexy, though I do question his math a bit. 30% is generouse and I find it pretty unlikely that we have more than 5 mafia, it is possible though to have 6 if there are roles to keep thing balanced. So real chance of a RNG lynch this game to hit mafia is somewhere between 25 and 30% To be fair I don't have any real strong scum reads atm. I think the case on Fidei outside of RNG is good. I have my own thinking telling me Damdred might be scum. Ruxx is super null with only a twinge of scum lean, mostly because I almost feel like he's hiding behind his role more than having fun with it but I can't really read ruxx for shit so idk. This one I hate myself for even thinking about + Show Spoiler + I told ruxx he was stupid for this, but geript really has been indirectly calling himself scum. Call it a projection read. Other than that I just think it's weird LT says he wants to sheep HtS and Rels is really weird so far too. It's hard to tell where the role play begins and ends which is making this a interesting challenge to read people. For now I'm gunna sheep the RNG I guess. ##Vote: Fidei Forgive me for summarising, but it looks like you basically say "Fidei is a self-confirmed bad player, PARTICULARLY in big games." You'll also note that in the only game we've played together that I participated in (Himalayas doesn't count) ritoky basically said "Fidei sucks, but could be noob town". But after establishing that, you then sheep his case on me anyway? Ritoky's posts since my wot are much more like what I expect from town ritoky, fwiw. | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
On August 20 2015 16:16 Tubesock wrote: What's your thinking on Damdred? Okay I have a bunch of thoughts. 1. Damdred is a strong player, especially towards the later part of the game. However his reads early on are usually quite meh. In Holy Guardians he was 100% wrong on all of reads until like d4 when he solved the game and got insta-NK'd. 2. There is no point in even bothering to parse his posts so far - they are garbage. Clearly he is role playing. Fine. But exactly as I said viz Onegu in Holy Guardians - he's easy lynch bait later on if he doesn't stop messing around. I would be pushing him harder, but there are too many people who haven't been playing the game properly (as I think of it anyway.. Pushing, giving reads, interacting on meaningful stuff) for a policy lynch to make sense. I think I had what, nine people on my 'lurker' list? Pretty sure some are Mafia, but they can't all be. 3. Damdred and ritoky always claim that they have a super good read on each other. So far, from the games I've seen, their reads on each other are usually right. So honestly if I was going to listen to someone's opinion of Damdred, it would be ritoky (especially now ritoky seems to be engaged in the game a little more). | ||
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
On August 20 2015 16:25 Tictock wrote: This, plus what I said about the RNG stuff being more likely to come from town!ritoky paradying than scum!ritoky hiding and tunneling, is why I'm feel ok sheeping his case atm. Since you are around, and because I'm wavering atm (haven't even actually voted) who would you vote today? Who do you think is your strongest scumread atm Fidei? and why? A predetermined meta is literally the easiest thing to stick to. Well, perhaps it's slightly harder than just lurking, but not by much. My reads were all mostly on that sort of 'superficial' level too, so I don't think it's necessarily scummy from you, but I don't think your reasoning there is particularly sound. Let me go and read some more filters before I answer you definitively. Off the top of my head, I'd probably say Tubesock. I'll go read his filter again now. | ||
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