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Oh, I had a point on Palmar I intended to raise and I just don't want to forget about it, and sqrt/others you can consider it if you want:
I do townread Palmar for his play d1. But, I do think his meta works against a townread on him.
Palmar self-described himself as follows in the "game of champions"
"Traditionally I am a very strong town player and a mediocre scum player. My greatest strengths in mafia is first and foremost a very strong day 1, and the ability to lead and influence towns."
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/59/puzzles-other-games/3-game-mafia-champions-ww-invitational-game-thread-1428519/index2.html
I won't talk about that game very much because I don't want to make Palmar cry (I didn't read the whole thing anyway, but I am not sure the players did either) (j/k you guys were pretty cool).
On a meta-level, I don't think I'd say Palmar has led town D1, it feels more like he has played a supportive role by encouraging the lynch on JWZ. It does make it a little more possible that he is opportunistic mafia pushing for a lynch. I still feel better about my townread, though.
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It's not that weird to me that everyone is voting for jabber - I think the initial suspicion of him was fair and the responses by him were really inadequate.
I think we are more likely to hit scum with this than if our votes were scattered across a lot of players, since then mafia would have a chance to manipulate the votes. I would have liked to see 3-4 votes on someone else but I feel like that ship has sailed.
To me the problem was/is that we don't get much information from this vote besides his role. There's a few things I'm comfortable drawing from the current votes (Ex: The scumteam probably is not a three-person combination of 27ninjabunnies/HaruRH/fuba because they were the first three to vote on jabber and it seems like an over-commitment to lynch a VT who doesn't have a history). But, it's pretty sparse from my point of view. I guess I just don't see a choice.
For what it's worth, I don't think non-response by jabber is that indicative. Most (all?) of my forum games had a mislynch D1, in some the town players talked back a lot and in others they quietly died. I do think the responses we did get were suspicious, though.
Yeah, the votes could be better. Basically if we get scum we did good, if we hit town we go into d2 without information from votes. I think it's okay since there has been a fair amount of discussion around the lynch and some alternatives were raised, too.
(I'll still be here if Haru wants to scumclaim though :3_
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EBWOP: To be clear what I mean by the responses we did get, I mean the responses we got in this game from jabberwockzerg.
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On May 29 2014 08:38 Palmar wrote:
We're not last minuting off this wagon. If it's a mislynch we can deal with it. Stop proposing these alternative wagons.
Why?
If we all have the same primary scum wagon, I think it's good to see how people think on secondary scumwagons.
I'll grant the information isn't too reliable (since the secondary wagons don't have much chance of being lynched) but I think it's good to see people making cases on other players.
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Jabber if you are town give us some last thoughts even if you are going to die.
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Also, any reason you went for Meapak over Fuba?
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Well gg 
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rip. sorry jabber.
I've been in thread a little too long but I'll come back and try to read end of D1 and post some thoughts when I get back.
FYI I prefer to talk at night, just not about roles or night actions by town or scum. If you don't want to talk at night because you are afraid of dying or something, please write up something so you can post it just before night ends or at the beginning of the day so the time isn't wasted.
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On May 29 2014 09:52 Blazinghand wrote:Vote count: jabberwockzerg (11) - 27ninjabunnies, HaruRH, fuba, Palmar, fuba, slOosh, Alakaslam, sqrtofneg1, Chromatically, sqrtofneg1, gobbledydook, Meapak_Ziphh, Amiko, sqrtofneg1fuba (1) - sqrtofneg1 Meapak_Ziphh (2) - mderg, jabberwockzerg 27ninjabunnies (0) - PalmarPalmar(0) - sqrtofneg1, sqrtofneg1
Here's some vote thoughts. These are ignoring comments in game and just seeing if the votes get me anything.
- At least one mafia voted on jabberwockzerg (because there are 3 mafia, but only two votes other than jabberwockzerg's that are on anyone else).
- I don't clear sqrt/mderg for not voting on jabber since the other wagons came late enough I don't feel they were viable. There are other things that weigh for/against them which I can discuss later.
- It'd be pretty crazy if the scumteam was 27ninjabunnies/HaruRH/fuba since they voted jabber very early, before most players had commented on the case or taken a stance. At that time I feel the case wasn't super strong, so I feel like that'd be an over-commitment by scum.
I don't see too much else I can say here... if anyone else has thoughts on the votes I'd appreciate hearing them.
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@HaruRH
I have some additional concerns regarding your last few posts. Please respond since it'll help me read you.
(1) Position on JWZ vs. Palmar
Look at the parts of these two posts-
On May 29 2014 09:08 HaruRH wrote:
(snip)
You need to read all the points in context - I suggested for jabber to change topics, but his reply and subsequent posts were questionable or scummy. But he is not definitely scum, but more likely to be scum than others. I would give it a 30% probability he is scum, 50% shit play and 20% VT.
in fact, it is not surprising for people in this newbie game to get baited by this simple setup bait. Read the posts after this post, you should know what I mean.
On May 29 2014 09:13 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 22:37 Palmar wrote:
I don't think we know which setup was used. In fact, palmar seemed to have been baited. It is obvious to VT that we dont know the setup - but palmar is second guessing his own decision of not knowing the setup. A townie will not state 'I don't think', but use stronger words that indicate full understanding of the rules. Therefore, palmar is either scum or ignorant and I would go with scum. I will keep an eye out for more of his posts.
It seems from these posts that you have a fairly weak read on JWZ as scum at the time of the posts (30% town, 20% mafia). You seemed to have a more certain scumread on Palmar. I'm confused why your vote stays on JWZ. Is Palmar currently your top scum?
(2) Setup Comments
No one in the game could know the setup at this point regardless of their alignment/role (unless they are somehow a genius and have determined the power roles). So why do you feel Palmar saying he's not sure about the setup is scummy since lack of knowledge would come from town or scum?
I guess it does evidence that he didn't read the OP, but I have seen town and scum both do that (for example, one or two newbie games back a few players thought they had a cop when they had a parity cop).
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I agree with most of Palmar's post above. I need to give Chrom a more in-depth read but he seemed town when I was looking at him yesterday.
I like Slam a little more than Sloosh, but both are still a little difficult to read for me. I just thought it was kinda weird that they were interacting with each other so much, and Sloosh had a comment or two on Slam that seemed a little strange... not sure. I will try to ask Sloosh some questions tomorrow.
@Palmar: Could you explain your read on Haru? He wasn't in the list in your last post, and you had said somewhat recently you thought he was probably town (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=23#456).
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(I'm not sure on Palmar's point re: MZ yet, I agreed with most of the rest)
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On May 29 2014 04:14 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 04:07 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh:
I'm writing now and seeing what I find. I can post what I have and continue I suppose.
Btw I asked you for a read on Alakaslam a little earlier since a fair number of your posts seemed to focus on him, can you give me any comments?
@27ninjabunnies: Nothing personal bunnies, but I'm going to ignore that post unless you give me anything to write about :x Oh I must have missed it. His posting style as is this game seems fine. I was more concerned if he was going to take it all the way ala last game, which is cause for concern as making your posts intentionally harder to read usually only makes sense from scum perspective.
I haven't looked at your past games, but have you played with or read Alakaslam before?
He sometimes has chaotic/silly posts so I feel like although your point (confusing posts makes sense from scum) may not apply so much in this case.
Is there any particular reason you seem to focus attention on him on d1? If you disagree with that characterization let me know.
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M_Z posted this a bit ago.
On May 30 2014 03:25 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 03:17 slOosh wrote:On May 30 2014 03:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 30 2014 02:52 slOosh wrote:On May 28 2014 08:52 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 28 2014 08:45 Palmar wrote:
MZ not everyone in the game is mafia. fuba and haru look bad, jwz is your most likely scumread and you could get behind a lynch on me, and now you're telling sqrtofneg1 that he might be mafia, while in the same breath explaining to him how he can get you to drop your "suspicion".
Welcome to my scum tier. Actually I didn't call sqrt scum, I was pointing out something that he's done which isn't helpful. I can have him correct that behavior and thus improve the town environment and maybe teach him something at the same time (which is after all the point of the game). On May 28 2014 16:48 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:K sqrt I'm starting to have a serious problem here. You go from this: On May 28 2014 10:19 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Here's what I think is going to happen, according to the sqrtofneg1 rule.
jwz is gonna be lynched, gonna flip vt.
Palmar is gonna end up scum.
I honestly don't think anyone will move their vote away from jwz. I don't expect anyone to, also.
But I kind of think he's town. To this: On May 28 2014 10:25 Chromatically wrote:
sqrt why are you not convincing people to vote for Palmar? On May 28 2014 10:26 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Cause I don't think it will happen.
And I also think there's a good chance that jwz is scum too. You can't "think he's town" and think he's scum too" at the same time. This is actually pretty scummy imo. Oh hey 27NB: On May 28 2014 11:08 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 28 2014 10:59 Chromatically wrote:
this is quite possibly the finest scumhunting tl has seen in ages Hey im scumhunting.... So im thinking, Team for mafia: Jabber/Sqrt/mderg Or Jabber/palmer/mderg Something like that, Id lynch both jabber and mderg though I also am really digging this post here although I disagree with mderg and I'd insert someone else, who I'm not sure of yet. So Palmar, just so the record is straight, now I'm calling sqrt scum for clearly contradicting himself in an attempt to be vague and not get caught supporting the wrong person. On May 29 2014 17:02 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 29 2014 11:33 Chromatically wrote:On May 28 2014 19:44 Chromatically wrote:
MZ, what's your reasoning for Palmar being scum? MZ answer this please, regardless of whether you hold the read now. What was your reasoning at the time? My reason for wanting to lynch Palmar was stated here: On May 28 2014 09:05 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 28 2014 08:57 Palmar wrote:
No you just implied that what he was doing looked like something mafia might do.
If you're town, I would have expected this
"If you leave it vague like this, you're never going to convince anyone of following your example or agreeing with your read."
Because that sentence isn't loaded with agenda, like yours was
"If you leave it vague like this, it makes it seem like you're just trying to throw dirt on him without actually having to take a stand."
I may be reading too much into this, but it's bad form. If you want to affect his playstyle, don't do it in the same breath as you threaten him with a scumread.. I really don't think I threatened him with a scum read at all. I said that something he was doing could be seen as scummy. I never said that I thought he was scum because of what he was doing. And I'm not a fan of your insinuations that I'm calling everyone mafia. I have thus far stated my support for a jwz lynch, discussed that I'm looking at Haru and Fuba as possibilities for scum because of their defense of jwz (they've both responded, I haven't really reevaluated them yet), and I've stated I would support a lynch on you. That was primarily because you were acting like you didn't give a shit which I've seen in the past to be scumpalmar. That's not randomly flinging around accusations as you suggest. At this point I'm not as convinced of Palmar's scumminess anymore because he's come in and been contributing a lot more than I would have expected out of scum Palmar. At the moment I don't have a burning scum read, I am probably most suspicious of sqrt because of the way he seems to drift with the general opinion of the thread like a willow in the wind. However I'm not sold that makes him scum yet, I wanna see him post for a little while longer before I make my mind up. ??? That's called a progression of a read slOosh. As you can see, at first I was not suspicious of sqrt and was simply pointing things out about his play for him to fix, then he posted more and I changed my mind because of new information. This is typically how one processes facts in a changing environment. I literally outline what's going on in the second post you quoted. What has sqrt done that you would consider him town? At this point I don't consider him town.
I am still thinking through Palmar's case (Haru & slOosh have a little more attention right now) but I do feel like this fits into what Palmar was saying regarding M_Z. I guess it's possible M_Z didn't want to push sqrt yet (since there was already a mislynch wagon on JWZ) and would be raising sqrt as suspicious afterward. I don't know but I'll dig a little more :3
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@M_Z:
Do you think Palmar/sqrt is a potential scumteam?
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On May 30 2014 03:05 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Okay guys, question time.
After jwz's lynch, what can you gather from his filter?
Not much, unfortunately. I think summary of JWZ is:
Scumreads: Palmar (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=19#377, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=19#369)
Townreads: Anyone who defended him (I guess maybe fuba/mderg?)
I also learned jabberwockzerg seems really nice ;_;7
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@gobbledygook:
(1) Fuba raised some points on you D1. Do you think his case is more likely to come from scum or mafia?
(2) One argument you raised re: Fuba was that he joined the JWZ vote without stating reasons. Do you think that criticism is true for any other players?
(3) If you have any thoughts on slOosh/M_Z I'd like to hear them.
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gg Chrom
I think my primary for today will be to focus on Haru / slOosh / M_Z. I didn't read slOosh enough yesterday so I'll see where I end up on each of these players in a little bit. I'll be around thread for a bit too if anyone wants to talk.
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On Haru
I made some points on Haru. I still think his responses are still pretty weird. For instance, this is from his last post-
On May 30 2014 07:33 HaruRH wrote:
Lets rank some scumreads
1) palmar 30% scum 10% ignorance (can easily turn into scum if he is caught not being ignorant but scummy play) 60% VT
2) sqrt 20% scum ( his play is wishy washy) 80 % VT
3) mderg 20% scum ( reading off his filter makes me want to point things out, yet have nothing to point. Weird.) 80% VT
The rest have either a low scumread due to their post types (slam/sloosh) or because they presented their alignment quickly (Chrom/27)
“Low” Scumreads (High Scumreads = 30%?)
First, look at the second paragraph of the quote above. He is stating he has a low scumread on slam, slosh, chrom, and 27ninjabunnies. The way it’s written, it seems like this means that these players have a low scumread, as opposed to the other players he’s discussed.
But, if you look at the post above, his reads on Palmar/sqrt/mderg are 30% scum or 20% scum. This doesn’t feel right to me – if I thought someone was 80% town VT, I think I would consider that a townread on that player, not a scumread.
I’ll also mention that to me, his reads are weird (Palmar and mderg both seem towny to me right now).
@MHaru: If you understand my point here, can you clarify your reads here?
You could talk about Palmar – I think his play yesterday is sort of three parts – 1) vote on bunnies, 2) pushing the jabber case, 3) interactions with M_Z. I’d appreciate your comments on his interactions with M_Z the most, if those contributed to your read, since I think M_Z should get some attention today.
Could you also explain what you mean by the “post types” for Alakaslam and slOosh? Although the two interacted, I feel like they post in different ways so I’m not sure what you mean.
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Hey gobble,
I'm going through slOosh now.
Do you think his join onto the JWZ vote also fits what we were discussing (on fuba and Alakaslam)?
I know we are still just starting D2, but if you were going to pick between MHaru and SlOosh which do you think would be a better wagon?
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EPT
