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(And that's not because of poor play, it's because you had indicated a preference for fuba)
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On June 05 2014 19:33 Palmar wrote:
Sloosh got lynched anyway. Why on earth did I not try to at least milk some credit for it by switching back or someting, If you think I'm mafia I already brought up that sloosh was scummy and I might throw my weight behind the case. It makes no sense for me to let him be lynched and leave myself in a worse position before.
Palmar could have switched until his play at the end of the day. With (I think) less than two hours left, Palmar finally gave some comments that distinguished between the two lynches: he said that the case on M_Z was better (it wasn't) and that the slOosh lynch was "too easy" (it wasn't). After he committed to those comments, he could not switch back to slOosh without looking very scummy or going into my "trap" comment.
Given how close the votes were, I don't think he would want to, anyway.
On June 05 2014 19:33 Palmar wrote:
It's just pointless. It's almost sort of insulting that you guys think I'm mafia because in order to believe that I'm mafia you also have to believe I'm incapable of forming a winning strategy, there is literally no path to victory for me even if gobble hadn't gotten killed.
I don't understand this point.
Let's say you are scum and gobble didn't get killed. In this case, gobble votes M_Z over his scumpartner.
At that point, it'd look like this - we'll assume for the moment ninjabunnies still gets shot:
1) Chromatically Vanilla Town Shot Night 1
2) 27ninjabunnies (Vanilla Town Shot Night 2?)
3) Meapak_Ziphh Vanilla Town Lynched Day 2
4) jabberwockzerg Vanilla Town Lynched Day 1
5) slOosh
6) gobbledydook
7) Palmar
8) mderg
9) fuba
10) HaruRH
11) sqrtofneg1
12) Amiko
13) Alakaslam
In what way does that foreclose a winning strategy?
You'd be in great shape.
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On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote:
I haven't played with NB before and I'm not a prophet. There is no way I can predict how she would react to me making a weak case on her. The case is still correct, it just doesn't mean she's mafia. That shit happens all the time in mafia.
You misunderstand why I posted bunnies reaction.
The post is that your case was not seen as serious, and when you pressed it people responded (as they should) doubting its sincerity. Bunnies' reaction just goes to show how little pressure your case provided. Anyway, you have nothing to lose by making that kind of case as mafia, maybe if you're lucky she OMGUSes you and you use that to try to support the lynch.
On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote:
Your case on Sloosh wasn't wrong. There is no point for me to argue about the merits of the case. In a world where MZ doesn't exist I would have just sheeped your case. I actually intended to do that until I got cold feet regarding how easy the wagon was.
Part of my case was that slOosh was M_Z, except more scummy.
If you thought my case was right, you shouldn't have been on M_Z.
If you didn't think that was correct, you didn't agree with me and should have tried to convince me on the merits.
On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote:
I don't waste time when I'm playing mafia. I see no reason to post when town is doing what I want it to be doing. I was okay with Sloosh getting the lynch until later in the day. If I was mafia and planned to defend him I probably would've done it earlier and not just based on wagon speed. But hey, ignore that.
...
I'm not this incompetent as mafia dude. When you drop the case I make a decision on what I want to do, and I either bus him for credit or defend him by breaking your case. Your case was good, you KNOW your case was good. If I'm mafia and don't want sloosh to die I would have to dismantle it immediately. Your explanation does not fit.
I scumhunt even when I think I have caught scum.
Anyway, you start pushing for M_Z only after fuba has made a case for people to switch to M_Z. I think you could accurately predict sqrt and Haru could be moved (because I thought they could be moved too).
On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote:
The backtracking strategy you're claiming is actually awful, because if I'm mafia I need two mislynches here, not one. It woul be ok if I needed just one. I can't do the "contemplate my reads" thing twice.
Why not? You just say "I guess I was wrong, so it must be XYZ"
Anyway, for all you know, the cop has no checks. It's possible that the cop checked players who had died. It's possible that you roleblocked the cop on days the cop would check living players. And, you don't know who the cop or medic are. If you are lucky, maybe Slam will flip as one of the blue roles.
For all you know, your strategy is a winning strategy because it's possible there will only be one blue (who you could kill tonight).
The idea that you didn't make a winning strategy is incorrect because it considers information you did not know. Given the information you did know, your strategy was fine.
On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote:
And you're risking the game on you being cocky.
If you are town, you certainly risked the game with your play on day 2 and day 3. It doesn't matter.
The game is at risk until it's over. That's the nature of the game.
(Anyway play has been pretty great, I can't believe you guys didn't roleblock me n2)
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On June 06 2014 00:03 Palmar wrote:
Objection! That's subjective bullshit.
Make your case on mderg already.
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You ignore the point of the votes.
You don't have to have your votes split d2 because there are still plenty of wagons you can unite behind.
You can try to attack the people who swapped for a mislynch (Haru, sqrt, fuba)
And, you can bus slOosh the next day if you need to.
It doesn't matter if all three of you vote M_Z.
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The "trap" comment was where I encouraged you to move onto slOosh and pretend that you were only voting on M_Z as a trap to try to get mafia to join the M_Z wagon. I didn't expect you to do it and regretted the post.
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On June 06 2014 00:17 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 00:16 Amiko wrote:
You ignore the point of the votes.
You don't have to have your votes split d2 because there are still plenty of wagons you can unite behind.
You can try to attack the people who swapped for a mislynch (Haru, sqrt, fuba)
And, you can bus slOosh the next day if you need to.
It doesn't matter if all three of you vote M_Z. Who cares. I'm telling you. I would not do what I did as mafia. I think it's a terrible strategy.
I think this falls under the subjective category you mentioned earlier. Not persuasive.
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On June 06 2014 00:16 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 00:13 Amiko wrote:On June 06 2014 00:03 Palmar wrote:
Objection! That's subjective bullshit.
Make your case on mderg already. Maybe I don't want to. Only one of them is mafia. First I need to decide which one it is.
Work on this.
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Here is more reason why I want to lynch Palmar-
On May 30 2014 04:55 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 16:49 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 28 2014 16:43 Palmar wrote:On May 28 2014 13:55 slOosh wrote:On May 28 2014 08:51 Palmar wrote:If someone isn't following why that last MZ post raises alarms ( aside from the fact he's calling everyone mafia), I'll explain. On May 28 2014 08:42 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 28 2014 08:26 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
You know what else I don't like?
Amiko's not as active as he usually is.
Yes, he's making big posts and big cases.
Yes, he has been the most substantial player so far, in terms of post content.
But he's not as active.
Other games, he's always around, asking people questions and the like.
This game, not so much. You've thrown around a lot of suspicions this game. Instead of making a vague statement like this, interpret what it means. If you leave it vague like this, it makes it seem like you're just trying to throw dirt on him without actually having to take a stand. Instead tell us why this is a problem, maybe provide some examples if you're gonna cite his meta. The bolded quote is very much not trying to figure out i's alignment. If MZ thinks there is any chance i is mafia, why is he trying to stop i from digging his own grave under the threat of "if you keep doing this I'll be suspicious of you!!!!". This looks like MZ wants to read i as town, while still looking like he's poking people. Palmar could you please explain your MZ read more? Which part of it do you not get? "If you leave it vague like this, it makes it seem like you're just trying to throw dirt on him without actually having to take a stand." This is basically saying "If you don't elaborate, you're acting like mafia". When in reality if MZ is town, he shouldn't care whether or not i acts like mafia, but if he is mafia. If MZ is town and thinks i is town his logical explanation should be "If you don't elaborate, you won't convince anyone". Because if MZ thinks i is town, he wouldn't care about i doing something potentially scummy for the sake of it being scummy, and rather because it is not helpful. However if MZ thinks i is mafia, why is he explaining the steps i can take to remove any suspicion MZ might have to him. It's like me saying "hey, you just made a case that is wrong, that is very mafia like. please make another case that is right so I don't have to call you mafia." It's just an absurd way of playing the game. The only reasonable conclusion is that MZ must think i is town, and thus it makes no sense for MZ to point out something i does looks like something mafia does. The reason I created in my head is that MZ knows i is town, and doesn't feel the need to call him mafia right now, but does leave the open-ended suspicion for use later. Palmar that's honestly one of the worst posts I've ever seen you make and does nothing to change my opinion on your alignment. It seems as though you called me out, misjudged the thread's perception of me, and are now trying to back out of the read. If I die tonight. MZ is like 95% mafia. His response to me here has nothing to do with what I was saying in the post. Like it's beyond obvious he's not reading the argument at all and all he wants to do is discredit me. What I was doing: Explaining why I thought MZ was mafia What MZ claims I was doing: Trying to back out of the read. The two are mutually exclusive damnit. I was explaining my read to someone who wasn't following it in hopes of convincing them, which is literally the opposite of trying to back out of a read.
This is a post from Palmar from night one. At this point, Palmar is convinced that M_Z is scum.
Palmar quotes the post from day one. At that point, there was still time to push someone other than jabber.
So, Palmar had already gone through the things that he felt made M_Z scum on day 1, but he doesn’t push this until after jabber has been mislynched.
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I don't like those responses because it seems to me you are already committed to M_Z.
I mean you even say that M_Z's case may be a slam dunk at that point.
"So if we get a slam-dunk case today I'm all ears. We actually might have one with MZ's overreaction and misinterpretation of my post against him, but we need to let it play out"
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Point to where you became sure about M_Z.
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On September 19 2012 21:43 Palmar wrote:
This is why most people shouldn't use meta. The problem here is that you're simply looking at one action, and assuming it's valid to point that out. I never point to my own meta as town or scum because I know I'm perfectly capable of altering it.
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You've changed Palmar ;_;
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There were three posts from M_Z on n1. You claim that these made your suspicion go to confirmation.
On May 29 2014 17:02 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 11:33 Chromatically wrote:On May 28 2014 19:44 Chromatically wrote:
MZ, what's your reasoning for Palmar being scum? MZ answer this please, regardless of whether you hold the read now. What was your reasoning at the time? My reason for wanting to lynch Palmar was stated here: Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 09:05 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 28 2014 08:57 Palmar wrote:
No you just implied that what he was doing looked like something mafia might do.
If you're town, I would have expected this
"If you leave it vague like this, you're never going to convince anyone of following your example or agreeing with your read."
Because that sentence isn't loaded with agenda, like yours was
"If you leave it vague like this, it makes it seem like you're just trying to throw dirt on him without actually having to take a stand."
I may be reading too much into this, but it's bad form. If you want to affect his playstyle, don't do it in the same breath as you threaten him with a scumread.. I really don't think I threatened him with a scum read at all. I said that something he was doing could be seen as scummy. I never said that I thought he was scum because of what he was doing. And I'm not a fan of your insinuations that I'm calling everyone mafia. I have thus far stated my support for a jwz lynch, discussed that I'm looking at Haru and Fuba as possibilities for scum because of their defense of jwz (they've both responded, I haven't really reevaluated them yet), and I've stated I would support a lynch on you. That was primarily because you were acting like you didn't give a shit which I've seen in the past to be scumpalmar. That's not randomly flinging around accusations as you suggest. At this point I'm not as convinced of Palmar's scumminess anymore because he's come in and been contributing a lot more than I would have expected out of scum Palmar. At the moment I don't have a burning scum read, I am probably most suspicious of sqrt because of the way he seems to drift with the general opinion of the thread like a willow in the wind. However I'm not sold that makes him scum yet, I wanna see him post for a little while longer before I make my mind up.
On May 30 2014 03:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 02:52 slOosh wrote:On May 28 2014 08:52 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 28 2014 08:45 Palmar wrote:
MZ not everyone in the game is mafia. fuba and haru look bad, jwz is your most likely scumread and you could get behind a lynch on me, and now you're telling sqrtofneg1 that he might be mafia, while in the same breath explaining to him how he can get you to drop your "suspicion".
Welcome to my scum tier. Actually I didn't call sqrt scum, I was pointing out something that he's done which isn't helpful. I can have him correct that behavior and thus improve the town environment and maybe teach him something at the same time (which is after all the point of the game). On May 28 2014 16:48 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:K sqrt I'm starting to have a serious problem here. You go from this: On May 28 2014 10:19 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Here's what I think is going to happen, according to the sqrtofneg1 rule.
jwz is gonna be lynched, gonna flip vt.
Palmar is gonna end up scum.
I honestly don't think anyone will move their vote away from jwz. I don't expect anyone to, also.
But I kind of think he's town. To this: On May 28 2014 10:25 Chromatically wrote:
sqrt why are you not convincing people to vote for Palmar? On May 28 2014 10:26 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Cause I don't think it will happen.
And I also think there's a good chance that jwz is scum too. You can't "think he's town" and think he's scum too" at the same time. This is actually pretty scummy imo. Oh hey 27NB: On May 28 2014 11:08 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 28 2014 10:59 Chromatically wrote:
this is quite possibly the finest scumhunting tl has seen in ages Hey im scumhunting.... So im thinking, Team for mafia: Jabber/Sqrt/mderg Or Jabber/palmer/mderg Something like that, Id lynch both jabber and mderg though I also am really digging this post here although I disagree with mderg and I'd insert someone else, who I'm not sure of yet. So Palmar, just so the record is straight, now I'm calling sqrt scum for clearly contradicting himself in an attempt to be vague and not get caught supporting the wrong person. On May 29 2014 17:02 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 29 2014 11:33 Chromatically wrote:On May 28 2014 19:44 Chromatically wrote:
MZ, what's your reasoning for Palmar being scum? MZ answer this please, regardless of whether you hold the read now. What was your reasoning at the time? My reason for wanting to lynch Palmar was stated here: On May 28 2014 09:05 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 28 2014 08:57 Palmar wrote:
No you just implied that what he was doing looked like something mafia might do.
If you're town, I would have expected this
"If you leave it vague like this, you're never going to convince anyone of following your example or agreeing with your read."
Because that sentence isn't loaded with agenda, like yours was
"If you leave it vague like this, it makes it seem like you're just trying to throw dirt on him without actually having to take a stand."
I may be reading too much into this, but it's bad form. If you want to affect his playstyle, don't do it in the same breath as you threaten him with a scumread.. I really don't think I threatened him with a scum read at all. I said that something he was doing could be seen as scummy. I never said that I thought he was scum because of what he was doing. And I'm not a fan of your insinuations that I'm calling everyone mafia. I have thus far stated my support for a jwz lynch, discussed that I'm looking at Haru and Fuba as possibilities for scum because of their defense of jwz (they've both responded, I haven't really reevaluated them yet), and I've stated I would support a lynch on you. That was primarily because you were acting like you didn't give a shit which I've seen in the past to be scumpalmar. That's not randomly flinging around accusations as you suggest. At this point I'm not as convinced of Palmar's scumminess anymore because he's come in and been contributing a lot more than I would have expected out of scum Palmar. At the moment I don't have a burning scum read, I am probably most suspicious of sqrt because of the way he seems to drift with the general opinion of the thread like a willow in the wind. However I'm not sold that makes him scum yet, I wanna see him post for a little while longer before I make my mind up. ??? That's called a progression of a read sloosh. As you can see, at first I was not suspicious of sqrt and was simply pointing things out about his play for him to fix, then he posted more and I changed my mind because of new information. This is typically how one processes facts in a changing environment. I literally outline what's going on in the second post you quoted.
On May 30 2014 03:25 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 03:17 slOosh wrote:On May 30 2014 03:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 30 2014 02:52 slOosh wrote:On May 28 2014 08:52 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 28 2014 08:45 Palmar wrote:
MZ not everyone in the game is mafia. fuba and haru look bad, jwz is your most likely scumread and you could get behind a lynch on me, and now you're telling sqrtofneg1 that he might be mafia, while in the same breath explaining to him how he can get you to drop your "suspicion".
Welcome to my scum tier. Actually I didn't call sqrt scum, I was pointing out something that he's done which isn't helpful. I can have him correct that behavior and thus improve the town environment and maybe teach him something at the same time (which is after all the point of the game). On May 28 2014 16:48 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:K sqrt I'm starting to have a serious problem here. You go from this: On May 28 2014 10:19 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Here's what I think is going to happen, according to the sqrtofneg1 rule.
jwz is gonna be lynched, gonna flip vt.
Palmar is gonna end up scum.
I honestly don't think anyone will move their vote away from jwz. I don't expect anyone to, also.
But I kind of think he's town. To this: On May 28 2014 10:25 Chromatically wrote:
sqrt why are you not convincing people to vote for Palmar? On May 28 2014 10:26 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Cause I don't think it will happen.
And I also think there's a good chance that jwz is scum too. You can't "think he's town" and think he's scum too" at the same time. This is actually pretty scummy imo. Oh hey 27NB: On May 28 2014 11:08 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 28 2014 10:59 Chromatically wrote:
this is quite possibly the finest scumhunting tl has seen in ages Hey im scumhunting.... So im thinking, Team for mafia: Jabber/Sqrt/mderg Or Jabber/palmer/mderg Something like that, Id lynch both jabber and mderg though I also am really digging this post here although I disagree with mderg and I'd insert someone else, who I'm not sure of yet. So Palmar, just so the record is straight, now I'm calling sqrt scum for clearly contradicting himself in an attempt to be vague and not get caught supporting the wrong person. On May 29 2014 17:02 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 29 2014 11:33 Chromatically wrote:On May 28 2014 19:44 Chromatically wrote:
MZ, what's your reasoning for Palmar being scum? MZ answer this please, regardless of whether you hold the read now. What was your reasoning at the time? My reason for wanting to lynch Palmar was stated here: On May 28 2014 09:05 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 28 2014 08:57 Palmar wrote:
No you just implied that what he was doing looked like something mafia might do.
If you're town, I would have expected this
"If you leave it vague like this, you're never going to convince anyone of following your example or agreeing with your read."
Because that sentence isn't loaded with agenda, like yours was
"If you leave it vague like this, it makes it seem like you're just trying to throw dirt on him without actually having to take a stand."
I may be reading too much into this, but it's bad form. If you want to affect his playstyle, don't do it in the same breath as you threaten him with a scumread.. I really don't think I threatened him with a scum read at all. I said that something he was doing could be seen as scummy. I never said that I thought he was scum because of what he was doing. And I'm not a fan of your insinuations that I'm calling everyone mafia. I have thus far stated my support for a jwz lynch, discussed that I'm looking at Haru and Fuba as possibilities for scum because of their defense of jwz (they've both responded, I haven't really reevaluated them yet), and I've stated I would support a lynch on you. That was primarily because you were acting like you didn't give a shit which I've seen in the past to be scumpalmar. That's not randomly flinging around accusations as you suggest. At this point I'm not as convinced of Palmar's scumminess anymore because he's come in and been contributing a lot more than I would have expected out of scum Palmar. At the moment I don't have a burning scum read, I am probably most suspicious of sqrt because of the way he seems to drift with the general opinion of the thread like a willow in the wind. However I'm not sold that makes him scum yet, I wanna see him post for a little while longer before I make my mind up. ??? That's called a progression of a read sloosh. As you can see, at first I was not suspicious of sqrt and was simply pointing things out about his play for him to fix, then he posted more and I changed my mind because of new information. This is typically how one processes facts in a changing environment. I literally outline what's going on in the second post you quoted. What has sqrt done that you would consider him town? At this point I don't consider him town.
(1) What about these posts confirmed it to you?
(2) If these actually confirmed your suspicions to such a great extent, why aren't you quoting those instead of the post from d1?
Why are you not even referencing the posts that you claim made you sure M_Z was scum?
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On June 06 2014 00:53 Amiko wrote:
(1) What about these posts confirmed it to you?
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This just reflects why the point is good.
If the posts confirmed your suspicions, they should have content in them that leads you to read him as scum.
If the posts had content that turned your suspicions into a slam dunk, then you should be using them in your case.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Btw, you didn't respond to this.
On June 06 2014 00:07 Amiko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote:
I haven't played with NB before and I'm not a prophet. There is no way I can predict how she would react to me making a weak case on her. The case is still correct, it just doesn't mean she's mafia. That shit happens all the time in mafia.
You misunderstand why I posted bunnies reaction. The post is that your case was not seen as serious, and when you pressed it people responded (as they should) doubting its sincerity. Bunnies' reaction just goes to show how little pressure your case provided. Anyway, you have nothing to lose by making that kind of case as mafia, maybe if you're lucky she OMGUSes you and you use that to try to support the lynch. Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote:
Your case on Sloosh wasn't wrong. There is no point for me to argue about the merits of the case. In a world where MZ doesn't exist I would have just sheeped your case. I actually intended to do that until I got cold feet regarding how easy the wagon was.
Part of my case was that slOosh was M_Z, except more scummy.
If you thought my case was right, you shouldn't have been on M_Z.
If you didn't think that was correct, you didn't agree with me and should have tried to convince me on the merits.Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote:
I don't waste time when I'm playing mafia. I see no reason to post when town is doing what I want it to be doing. I was okay with Sloosh getting the lynch until later in the day. If I was mafia and planned to defend him I probably would've done it earlier and not just based on wagon speed. But hey, ignore that.
...
I'm not this incompetent as mafia dude. When you drop the case I make a decision on what I want to do, and I either bus him for credit or defend him by breaking your case. Your case was good, you KNOW your case was good. If I'm mafia and don't want sloosh to die I would have to dismantle it immediately. Your explanation does not fit.
I scumhunt even when I think I have caught scum. Anyway, you start pushing for M_Z only after fuba has made a case for people to switch to M_Z. I think you could accurately predict sqrt and Haru could be moved (because I thought they could be moved too). Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote:
The backtracking strategy you're claiming is actually awful, because if I'm mafia I need two mislynches here, not one. It woul be ok if I needed just one. I can't do the "contemplate my reads" thing twice.
Why not? You just say "I guess I was wrong, so it must be XYZ" Anyway, for all you know, the cop has no checks. It's possible that the cop checked players who had died. It's possible that you roleblocked the cop on days the cop would check living players. And, you don't know who the cop or medic are. If you are lucky, maybe Slam will flip as one of the blue roles. For all you know, your strategy is a winning strategy because it's possible there will only be one blue (who you could kill tonight). The idea that you didn't make a winning strategy is incorrect because it considers information you did not know. Given the information you did know, your strategy was fine.Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote:
And you're risking the game on you being cocky. If you are town, you certainly risked the game with your play on day 2 and day 3. It doesn't matter. The game is at risk until it's over. That's the nature of the game. (Anyway play has been pretty great, I can't believe you guys didn't roleblock me n2)
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(To be clear, you didn't respond to the entire post, the green text is what I was particularly interested in but you can reply to the whole thing since you skipped it before)
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Before I respond, let me get this straight:
You suspected M_Z on day 1, but were not sure.
You became sure during night 1.
You became sure because of M_Z's inactivity.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://blogs.citypages.com/food/RIP-500-square.jpg)
