EPTOn March 26 2014 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Can you point out where he says this?
Can you point out where he says this?
The point being that I did not see how any answer I expected could possibly have revealed anything about your alignment.
World Heavyweight Championship Mafia II - Page 2
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gumshoe
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On March 26 2014 09:49 Palmar wrote: I think you think I think rayn is better at scum than I think he really is. Rayn IS a good scum player, you are a good player period who has played in a multitude of games with Rayn. I dont see how you could expected him to balk under such an easy question. | ||
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gumshoe
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On March 26 2014 09:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay so we obviously disagree about the meaning of that post. I think i am right given Palmar's earlier posts which point towards me being right. You think your right cause you always think your right XD but then again so do most people : P myself included. I guess I'm done talking about palmer till he answers my question, as for why you should Palmer, cause pretty please? I'll bake you a cake : D | ||
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gumshoe
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On March 26 2014 09:56 Palmar wrote: Which questions did I not cover? And you still need to explain why the magic phrase "I was trying to create discussion" is a get out of jail free card. Not until you answer definitively yes or no. That is the question, the only question I have of you. | ||
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On March 26 2014 10:03 Palmar wrote: which one, whether or not I was trying to create discussion? Seeing as I posted as much in the next post after I asked rayn the question I thought the answer should be default, did you not notice that? And no, it's an opportunity to do something that may or may not provide something useful, so yes I was creating discussion and no that wasn't the sole purpose of the question. Do I get to go home now officer? Yeah sure, in case you were wondering about the trap card, I wanted to see how paranoid you were at the thought of a trap, which you weren't really, just sort of indolent towards the whole notion. I has no issues with you as of now. | ||
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Do you think you will get an answer from gumshoe that has any chance of moving your read on him forward? If so, what kind of an answer would make you lean one way or the other? If rayn does not have an explanation to his question it makes the question pointless and thus rayn more likely to be mafia. The point being that I did not see how any answer I expected could possibly have revealed anything about your alignment. Between these 3 qoutes, said in relative succesion, do you not agree that Palmar found Rayn somewhat scummy? Why is Rayn so stalwart in denying Palmars misgivings? | ||
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On March 26 2014 10:14 Palmar wrote: I wasn't wondering about the trap card. By your own definition I am still mafia because I was serious about my question without previously thinking rayn is scum, so how can you have no issues with me? I literally just said that there exists a reason for me asking rayn that question that isn't a) to start a discussion or b) because I think rayn is scummy. bolded is a Lie Also, why do I get an out if I say "I was trying to kickstart discussion"? And you still need to explain why the magic phrase "I was trying to create discussion" is a get out of jail free card. As for my definition [spoiler]Trying to kick start the game, countless times, people have had meaningless conversation just to get things going. He may be doing that now, if you are Palmer wouldn't mind some con firmation / :You admitted you were just trying to generate discussion for the most part, my own laws do not bind me in this matter. Also I just dont think your scummy anymore, disappointed? | ||
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On March 26 2014 10:19 gumshoe wrote: Marv, while your here I'm curios, look at these 3 qoutes by palmar. Between these 3 qoutes, said in relative succesion, do you not agree that Palmar found Rayn somewhat scummy? Why is Rayn so stalwart in denying Palmars misgivings? Qoute 1: Rayn is asking a question qoute 2: If rayn doesnt have a good reason for asking the question I consider him scum. qoute 3: I cant think of any reason for him to ask the question, therefore the question is scummy. No one knows what palmers thinking, we only have his words to be sure of, and his words heavily suggest he found you scummy at the time of his question. Why do you work to refute that? | ||
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On March 26 2014 10:42 raynpelikoneet wrote: Why do you leave out the post where he contributes to my answer? Why are you selectively quoting posts and not taking account the whole conversation? That qoute comes after your answer, I am asserting that prior to it he found you scummy, you are saying he didn't, I am not selectively qouting, I am merely assembling the relevant quotes  | ||
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On March 26 2014 10:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: I give up. Wow, our surrender timing was identical 0_o We are equally stubborn. No more no less. | ||
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On March 26 2014 12:26 IAmRobik wrote: I started reading this and thought it was super scummy. Then you said my name and I didn't understand the rest of what you posted, so I will withhold judgement for now. Definitely leaning scummy from this post though. Shhhhh sweet puppet prince, let your trusted advisors do your thinking for you :D lest you strain your brain in the attempt. | ||
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gumshoe
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Looking back though, this may not have been pro alignment indicative, when I read through the last good maf game I played, something really interesting came up. Toad was agreeing and arguing with cav(relatively new player) as equals at one point, Toad was scum and the scum coach advised toad to stop doing that, cause theres no reason why town toad would really care about what some random newb had to say. I feel the same applies here, hear the tone of these responses. There is no reason for him not to answer you as any alignment, but I guess it is actually reasonable to think there is a small chance of panic and overexplanation. You're assuming I think rayn is smarter than me. I did not consider the option that you might panic and overexplain, or any other scenario that makes the question reasonable, thus I wanted to find out if rayn had considered any scenario where him questioning you might lead to something. Please explain how it was harmful. If the bolded is true I am mafia for asking that question, no matter what. The only answer you accept as genuine can not possibly be given at that point in the thread because it's completely unreasonable to think rayn is scummy at that point. Thus by your own definition I must be mafia for asking that question and there is no need for you to follow up on it, as any answer I give will always make me mafia in your eyes. ##Vote gumshoe Compare those answers to this If we first assume that the only reasonable answers to your question are "yes" and "no", then yes I can. If I am mafia, it should be obvious that answering the question "yes" (and thus truthfully) would increase the chances of me getting lynched significantly. It is not as obvious that a "no" answer as town will increase the chances I get lynched, and thus reduce town's chances of winning the game. The thing is a hard "no" answer to this question is not what I'd usually do as town. A more likely answer from me would be along the lines of "bitch please", "no, are you?" or "no, but I know who is *reasons*". All of those answers are both truthful and would (in my opinion) decrease the chances of me being lynched. However the short, hard "no" I would think is slightly suspicious coming from me. This is arguable, but I'd put the increased chance of me being lynched from the hard "no" at maybe a percent or so, small, but still valid. However what I'm surprised you haven't picked up on about Palmar is how inconsistent he is when presenting that original statement. The refusal to truthfully answer the question is based upon desire to win the game. The entire reason he does not provide the answer is that he thinks he cannot do so truthfully without decreasing his chances to win. However, given that the refusal is based on his own speculations about the game and how town might react to his statements, he should have also been able to deduce that the refusal would put him under even more scrutiny than answering "no" as town. This contradicts his initial motivation for not answering, as not providing the answer means he's under more suspicion than he would be if he answered truthfully as town. This leaves only the option that Palmar is scum, as then, and then only, would the suspicion be increased by a truthful answer compared to no answer. And while that wasn't his original baseline, the motivation for the answer given implies that's the case. I would vote for Palmar but seeing as he is me and that would once again reduce my chances to win I'm afraid I can't. But I hope people notice this contradiction in his play. This is how he responded to an accusation as town in the last game he played, with the utter confidence of someone who doesn't really care about being lynched. The accusation was also coming from Rayn, a decidedly better player than me, in fact the only time palmer has ever played with me was in that same game wherein I played atrociously. So the question comes to mind, is palmer giving my accusation the time of day because he feels confident he can answer it yet not confident enough too dismiss it as the ramblings of a lesser participant, or does he feel pressured to answer because as scum he feels the need to be perfect? Similarly, I dont like how Holy backed Thrawn regarding rayn then turned on him pretty quick when he realized he was a better target. I dont understand why people believe Thrawn is more likely to take stupid leaps as scum, when his submissive behaviour would prove all the more effective. Holy, Rayn, why do you think sloppiness is indicative of Thrawns scum play? Can you provide examples where he takes insane leaps that make him look like scum? | ||
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gumshoe
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On March 27 2014 02:54 Palmar wrote: Sure! HF town for arguing with rayn gumshoe town for calling me mafia prplhz hero for voting marv rayn maybe town for arguing a lot robik maaaaybe town thrawn idk phagga idk marv mafia for calling me mafia There you go! Why am I town for calling you mafia but Marv is scum 0_o | ||
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I think you're reading way too much into it. Palmar asked a question because he was curious as to rayn's motives, rayn answered, life moves on. Well, except that it didn't of course. If someone finds something odd/weird/eye-brow raising then it's reasonable to ask a question to find out if said oddness is just oddness or scummy oddness, and I don't think it's particularly fair to think that Palmar should have a bunch of potential rayn answers in mind when he asked the question. I'd quite like to murder Palmar. Who's in? Palmer barely posted inbetween these two stances of yours, what specifically changed your mind about plamar? Or rather what set you on his trail when prior you were pretty content to let him slide? | ||
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On March 27 2014 03:00 Holyflare wrote: The fuck are you saying tram? I turned on him when i proved he was a liar and then admitted it and then called rayn mafia for the remaining time and has ninja unvoted him while still calling him mafia. Why you not read thread? How do those things prove hes scum? It just sounds like shitty town play, and an easy thing to jump on. Explain to me as if I'm five years old how making an obviously terrible accusation and then crumbling under it is the sign of someone trying to sabotage the thread without getting implicated in the process, because it sounds like Thrawns actions accomplished neither of those things. Maybe thats because you and Rayn are awesome and the best townies to ever townie, or maybe its because he was just making a shitty day one read, why is the former more likely? | ||
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gumshoe
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On March 27 2014 03:07 Holyflare wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=17#337 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=23#444 2nd link most important link cz ninja unvote 1), What are you saying here? That his vote came after he aired suspicions? Whats wrong with that? 2) He admitted to lying 0_o why do that as scum? It just seems so dumb and reckless, he could always just stay the course instead of opening himself up to more attack. Its shitty yes, but I fail to see how its more likely to be scummy, as what hes saying is more likely to get him into trouble rather than out of it. | ||
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gumshoe
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On March 27 2014 03:02 raynpelikoneet wrote: gumshoe: Here, read what i wrote on thrawn in the Extractor Mini mafia game. It's on my filter pages 3-4: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/439578-extractor-trick-mini-mafia?user=Raynpelikoneet Can you be more specific just so were on the right page? He ninja voted me yes, as you claimed, does he not that as town? Also another thing to keep in mind was the game in question was instant majority, therefore ninja votes are often scums bread and butter(sure enough I was killed only a few hours into the game, thanks Rayn : P ), thats just not the case here, the vote thread is open for all to see and theres no way he wasnt going to get called out, why put pressure on himself that way as scum? | ||
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On March 27 2014 03:22 Holyflare wrote: No he fucking said he put a vote down on rayn based on the tone of rayns post straight away regardless of the content which A) is tterrible because he voted without reading the content B) is a flat out lie because he asked something based on the content of rayns post before his vote went down anyway So he got caught out in a "lie" and rayn called him mafia for other stuff. Thrawn's reaction is that rayn didn't keep hounding him about being mafia so rayn must be mafia. Thrawn thinks rayn is mafia but ninja unvotes him in vote thread without saying anything about it. Thrawn is mafia I still dont understand the bolded T_T show me the lie, is it the same lie thrawn was talking about? As for the second paragraph, all I see is indecisive belligerent waffling, just as likely in my eyes to be town bumbling(especially out of thrawn, a player I've known to get super high before playing) as it is to be scum pandering. You are asking me to believe we have caught obviusly terrible scum in a game filled with predominantly great players, and I'm just not seeing it / : | ||
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