Cultured Mini Mafia

On February 20 2014 10:53 Aquanim wrote:


...that was meant to be an edit. whoops

After how A Quiet Game ended I decided that particular rule needed yet more emphasis :/

On February 24 2014 21:43 Mocsta wrote:

Win % says otherwise

Im now @ 50%

On February 25 2014 02:11 Balla24 wrote:
I'm cohosting you dork

On February 26 2014 09:02 Toadesstern wrote:
FINALLY

I will cherish this game for I have finally rolled town and will not throw away my chances to finally play a game. Who shall help me murder all of mafia?

On February 26 2014 09:08 suki wrote:
dammit I forgot to bold it.

On February 26 2014 09:10 suki wrote:


Listen Wossy, it's my role I can spell it however I want. And that's "Expelliarmus" . Don't tell me it's wrong.

On February 26 2014 09:42 Toadesstern wrote:

of course not, but I like this question. You replace WoS as my buddy to murder all of mafia. Easiest townread ever

On February 26 2014 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I coached Cavalinho in the last (ongoing) newbie game so no explanations yet.

On February 26 2014 09:49 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Well me and Toad are obviously town.

On February 26 2014 09:56 Mocsta wrote:

Don't make me log onto a comp wave

I was hoping we. Would both be town... Sigh

Now before i go off the rails. Is the above truth or sarcasm?

On February 26 2014 09:58 Holyflare wrote:
WELCOME TO!!!!!



Fellow travelers, let me take you on a journey. No! More than just a journey! AN ADVENTURE!!!!!

Untold riches? Wenches and Rum? Perving on next doors mother? YOU DECIDE!

In this fabulous adventure YOU play the main character and YOU get to decide what happens next!

Too good to be true? NEVER!


Does this sound like the kind of thing you'd be interested in? Do you want to start a circle of fellow townsman and build an epic kingdom that no scum were safe in? If so JOIN NOW!




but wait...! How do you join you ask? Well that part is simple, a small task I have for thee!

Simply put, open up paint and draw me your character! Click the resize button and make it 250x300 and get creating (save as png)! Here I am!




Once enough adventurers have joined! Our adventure begins! Let your imagination run wild!!!!!!!!

On February 26 2014 10:04 geript wrote:

Ok wubby, let's chitchat... mmmmmkay. I pick Nautilus. Who do you pick and why?

On February 26 2014 10:04 Holyflare wrote:


No paint picture no adventure I'm afraid!

On February 26 2014 10:05 Holyflare wrote:
I meant 200x350 my bad PPP

On February 26 2014 10:05 Mocsta wrote:
Rayn

Do u thibk its plausible for a town wave to infer I am a scum read already?

On February 26 2014 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
actually screw what I just said, this trolling shit sucks so let's get down to serious business, we have something to talk about and everyone's ignoring it.

WoS/Holy I know you to are fairly smart, smart enough to answer the following question. What do you make of the conversation between Rayn, geript and me? I want to get some input on that from some more people.
Should help me figure out if you guys are reading

On February 26 2014 10:19 Mocsta wrote:

If u r town I don't like at all what our doing.

Which is.
Crating an atmosphere of intimidation
If u think otherwise, surely you can admit that the above is not conducive to gleaning the alignment of gumshoe in the slightest

Gumshoe post was very reasonable and called me town for the right reasons.
Did u read a thing he wrote?

On February 26 2014 10:20 Toadesstern wrote:
I'll wait for holy's answer seeing as a lot of different people have already posted anyways.

On February 26 2014 10:23 Toadesstern wrote:
I tried to draw a toad but it ended up looking like a fat spider so I think this adventure isn't something for me.

On February 26 2014 10:29 gumshoe wrote:


That depends entirely on you people : P yall have to be worth my time. Also my lurking has nothing to do with my alignment, I lurk and play as scum or town, you asking wether or not I will adds nothing to the great discussion.

On February 26 2014 10:40 gumshoe wrote:


I feel it's important to note that Toads just come off a pretty brutal loss in default, he was outed as the mafia godfather night 1 and I cant help but suspect that either way, that blow will influence his play. The tone switch in this post is noteworthy, he played out the start pretty lightly (in contrast to default where he was somewhat tense throughout) and he feels the need to 'snap' out of it. Feels slightly odd, like hes trying to let us know that hes acting natural, but is intent on winning.

On February 26 2014 10:44 Mocsta wrote:
The irony of that post is it caught a scum in a recent game I played but I cant remember whom.

I think it was Holyflare? In hogwarts, he said the same thing: town is on the wrong track and let me get it back on the right track.
Syllo called him out rightfully for this. Nice pick up. I suppose we see what eventuates out of his Geript post.

as an aside:
I am really iffy about Wave, but cant tell if I am reading him negatively out of prejudice or not.
Wave
What is your actual issue with my play so far?

On February 26 2014 10:45 Toadesstern wrote:


yeah sure I'll stick around for another 30 minutes or so I think, still need to watch another episode of nisekoi

On February 26 2014 10:46 suki wrote:
I didn't really understand why toad and rayn called each other town, but it didn't strike me as completely odd. Certainly not scummy.

Hmm Toad just replied with reasoning let me see.



This is pretty much toad's reasoning on why rayn is town, pretty much a meta read. Which means nothing to me so I'll just wait for them to contribute more before coming to any conclusions.

On February 26 2014 10:49 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Mocsta i don't see where Wave implies you are mafia.

On February 26 2014 10:50 suki wrote:


I didn't understand the sentence but the bolded part is wrong cuz millers aren't self aware

On February 26 2014 10:53 TheChyz wrote:
Nothing to do with reads, just the way your playing. Back in that game it seemed like you and vivax/kush were just posting to fill up the thread and waste the day. Here it seems more like your actually trying to scum hunt. That combined with the fact you haven't claimed scum yet

On February 26 2014 10:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So Wave what's your conclusion on me, Toad and geript?

On February 26 2014 10:51 Mocsta wrote:

Hmmm

I misinterpretted. A lot of times you are referencing me its about gumshoe.

Carry on.

On February 26 2014 11:07 Mocsta wrote:
In my head you were attacking me constantly/protecting Suki.

I swapped over to computer and ctrl+f mocsta
much less references than I thought.

On February 26 2014 11:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Well i actually do have one scumread but i am pretty sure it's not because of what you see.

On February 26 2014 11:11 raynpelikoneet wrote:
In fact yes, it is.

On February 26 2014 11:15 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Wave can you explain your comment about the Survivor game in response to Holyflare's game? What do you mean.

Also why did you question Mocsta about the gumshoe/you mistake? Why was it possible it's alignment indicative?

On February 26 2014 11:14 Mocsta wrote:
Im drafting up my issues with Suki so feedback on that would be good when its released.

As an aside/observation/muse till then, I havent read in detail the interactions between Geript/Toad/Rayn (as I have been focussed on you + Suki) however I am finding Rayns approach to Toad odd (regardless of alignment). Basically I know Rayn doesnt respect Toads town play.

Red Herring or something to keep note of?

On February 26 2014 10:08 gumshoe wrote:
Mocsta seems into it this game, overall just sharper off the bat then when I was scum together with him just a few days ago. Hes been rolling red alot lately and thats been frustrating him, but I hear none of that agitation in his posts so far. Preliminary read of course, but I feel good about his accusation not coming from a place of deceit. So now I'm left wondering, is he right about Suki? Suki's post doesn't quite feel like it was thought out days in advance, (it's a fairly sloppy one and obviously susceptible to critique) but it does feel crafted, which gives me the sense that she read her pm an hour ago and started over thinking her opening. The post itself is also one that calls back to old games, an attempt at inducing nostalgia. How someones posting makes us feel can easily influence our perception of them and the harry potter claim might be aiming for that.

If Suki isn't scum she's either a) nervous, or b) baiting. Suki, which explanation do you prefer?

On February 26 2014 11:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Ehh.. There is nothing alignment indicative in misreading someone's post and him calling you out because of it is definitely not alignment indicative. He just made a mistake, as town, or as scum. Therefore it's equally easy to back off from it as either alignment as it's a honest mistake in the first place.

On February 26 2014 11:21 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Like why would he intentionally say you did something you didn't as mafia?

On February 26 2014 11:31 JarJarDrinks wrote:
I agree w/ this assesment. Also I find it odd that he seems to give moc a townread for some pretty terrible reasoning. Especially since IMO, moc has been acting pretty scummy.

On February 26 2014 11:36 Holyflare wrote:



Scum slip?

On February 26 2014 11:40 Holyflare wrote:


You criticise Wave for saying some silly nonsense and saying if you're town why do that because it doesn't solve gumshoe's alignment or anything. Yet, same page of filter here you are saying nonsense to JJD who is bringing up points on other players. By your own reasoning townies shouldn't do that so why the change of heart so soon? Or are you sticking to what you said? "TOWN" don't do that!

On February 26 2014 11:41 Holyflare wrote:


I'd like to let it pan out a bit before I'm sure on it

On February 26 2014 11:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I find Wave's vote on gumshoe to be absolute crap.

On February 26 2014 11:52 Holyflare wrote:
So tram, if you can post try hard cases as either alignment, what significant reasoning do we have to believe that you are town this game? Why even post the caveat that you can do that as scum as well?

Also



what does that mean??? Surely if you made a good one it would be on a scum...?

On February 26 2014 12:00 gumshoe wrote:
As for accusations regarding meta, my post on Suki talked about how I felt the post wasn't made a long time in Advance ( because it was careless) but felt crafted, she had to have thought about the Harry potter thing at least , it's a somewhat complicated thought, not really a spur of the moment one . I then supplemented the read with meta.

Same with toad, his serius change in tone felt abrupt, it felt odd, especially after a very serious scum game, so I tried to think of a motivation for it. I always combine and justify my reads with a combination of substance and meta, the substance provides actus reus , the meta providing men's reus. I fail to see your issue, what's more in past games we've played, you were aware of my lurker meta yet never treated me as hostilely as this. Have I pissed you off somehow? Because you came out of the gates swinging at me ( a target so easy that if I'm not being attacked I'm probably scum) and you haven't stopped, using every bit I post to reinforce your baseless confirmation bias.

On February 26 2014 12:01 Mocsta wrote:

U know as scum, when I want to get ppl off a scum buddy. I vote jump on them scummily.
Case in point: PYP with Johnnywup

In this game, I gave a sound reason for gumshoe.
Further, I agree completely after a re-read that his post for calling me town was opportunistic and lacking in detail.
Ironically I now prefer Chz position for calling me town.


You know, as scum my agenda is to infiltrate town. Thats my goal every game as scum.
As town, I dont have that care. Thats how you read me.
The fact that half this game think I am scum, in indicative of me pushing the buttons I DONT as scum.
My 6 scum games out of 8, should be indicative of this enough to be gospel.

On February 26 2014 12:04 raynpelikoneet wrote:

No it's for correctly describing gumshoe's meta and then making a really bad read that contradicts the meta he described.

On February 26 2014 12:03 geript wrote:

Is it for trolling all wrong?

On February 26 2014 12:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:
EBWOP:
ugh.. reasoning for voting for gumshoe contradicts the meta Wave brought up on gumshoe.
In other words, gumshoe plays directly to his town meta that Wave (correctly) described and now he is voting for him.

On February 26 2014 12:21 Holyflare wrote:
Oh yeh, wave that reminded me:



what gives?

On February 26 2014 12:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Now this is exactly what gumshoe does. His scumplay is actually far better than his townplay because he realizes what town wants to hear and contributes towards that. As town he makes absolutely awful posts (sorry gumshoe ^^) that might not say anything at all or have one thought which might be "i don't know what X is doing" and there are 1000 words around it that explain his thoguht process and where he found that information that was in the end useless. He literally posts exactly what is in his mind at that time and it ends up in terrible posts that are like the easiest thing ever to attack.

Now the green part in the quote makes me 100% sure WaveofShadow knows this. I also went to check on last couple of games where i remember both of gumshoe and Wave being town and gumshoe making his typical posts:

Quiet game mini mafia: EOD1, we have outed mafia. gumshoe comes in 20min before the deadline, ignores the outed mafia and makes a hugeass case on Wave. Wave does not even consider gumshoe being mafia, in fact based on his N1 posting he says the opposite.

TL Mafia LXIV: gumshoe makes terrible posts on D1 (like "vote me for mayor because i am so bad") and says nothing all D1. Wave never talks about gumshoe on D1, at all.

Now both of these games in addition to my first quote from Wave support my argument that Wave knows gumshoe's meta pretty well.

However, in this game, here is Wave's reasoning for voting for gumshoe:


Here is the post in question:

See, a big fucking thought process that ends in somewhat bad conclusion (that really says nothing). Now Wave's reasoning for calling this conclusion scummy is really terrible. First of all there is nothing scummy to not think about a conclusion you didn't think of because... YOU DIDN'T THINK OF IT! Second of all this is all characteristic to gumshoe's townplay, which Wave very well knows taking account he correctly described gumshoe's town!meta earlier on.

This case on gumshoe is horrible and is not from a townie

On February 26 2014 12:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Don't you dare to come tell me you are not aware of gumshoe's meta because in last couple of games as i just pointed out you have correctly identified his alignment while he has been making equally "scummy" posts than he has in this game. You cherrypick on some irrelevant part in one of his posts and regardless of if you know his meta or not (which you btw do - and don't even try to bring up some 6 month old game) the case is so fucking awful i don't even know what to say. How about you don't comment on the meta part because it's "no you" as neither of us can 100% prove being wrong on it but instead comment on the case you made that is fucking terrible.

On February 26 2014 12:47 WaveofShadow wrote:

I never said I'm not aware of his meta, but the post you quoted is not me commenting on it.
Him posting a paragraph this early into D1 doesn't prove anything at all about his alignment, and if you honestly think I should call him town for a meta read based on his posting so far DESPITE the fact that he is very obviously aware of what his meta shows as town or scum (as can be seen from his recent scumgame AND YOUR OWN POSTING ABOUT HIM) then I don't even know what to say.

And again the fact that YOU would dare think I of all people would base a read on gumshoe solely on meta is absolutely fucking terrible. I never have and never will do that.

Case dismissed Rayn, it's shit and I'm moving on.

Now as far as what I commented on gumshoe, you are linking it to my 'knowledge of his meta,' instead of taking it solely in the context of this game, so until you do that, I have nothing to say to you.

On February 26 2014 12:55 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Bad AtE defense. Try again.

See, a big fucking thought process that ends in somewhat bad conclusion (that really says nothing). Now Wave's reasoning for calling this conclusion scummy is really terrible. First of all there is nothing scummy to not think about a conclusion you didn't think of because... YOU DIDN'T THINK OF IT! Second of all this is all characteristic to gumshoe's townplay, which Wave very well knows taking account he correctly described gumshoe's town!meta earlier on.

On February 26 2014 12:33 geript wrote:

A few things. One is how chummy they are early makes it unlikely they'd be together. Second, Rayn is probably town for his geript cop joke; it took me like 3 minutes to get that one. Third, I like Rayn's WoS vote and minor push; WoS has been trolling really weird to start off with and isn't his usual witty self. Fourth, they wouldn't both likely push back against me as scum together this early. Like I'm apparently unreadable to people which is totally crazy in my mind.

On February 26 2014 13:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Well he has commented on this and explained his thought process which reads very clear to me. Yet you have nothing to say about the explanation but the original action instead?

On February 26 2014 12:03 WaveofShadow wrote:
Oh and by martyr-y post I meant gumshoe's, if that wasn't clear. The over-defensive 'woe is me I'ma get mislynched' I find is usually more likely to come from town (or scum jaybrundage), but yeah, gonna go read a scumgame.

Whoa, this shoe has claws.
Where do you get confirmation bias from anything I've said?
And my 'lurker attack' of you has nothing to do with me coming up with a scumread on you at first that is now threatening to devolve.
Please stop talking about how easy of a mislynch you are, because you're just going to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And Rayn, as I said before, you don't have marv to back you up here with baseless shit so you're gonna have to try harder than that if you want me to swing this time around.

On February 26 2014 13:11 raynpelikoneet wrote:

And this is very much bullshit because it's impossible as if suki is a "good-towny" she'll disagree and get into argument with gumshoe.

On February 26 2014 13:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So if gumshoe is mafia and suki is town as you are impyling here why is suki not making a big deal out of gumshoe's totally bullshit artificial scumread with bad reasoning on her?

On February 26 2014 13:25 raynpelikoneet wrote:
And why is your vote still on gumshoe. I guarantee you he is town. Even if i am mafia that's a 100% read.

On February 26 2014 13:25 gumshoe wrote:


Crafted( very deliberate purposeful game call back) but sloppy(easily called out by Mocsta) made me think it was planned in a quick span of time, a mafia role pm would be ample motivation for production of such a rough intro post. The arguments not bad, just not necessarily right, but it is there / : also as for the two options I shoe horned her in, you imply both are bad and serve as a trap, they dont, theres no motivation for trapping her into an answer if those answers arent scummy. I picked those two because they seemed most likely and would provide more discussion than "I'm just having fun".

On February 26 2014 13:32 gumshoe wrote:


First day man, we bring up bad cases(which they almost all are at this point) then move on or evolve those cases. The only people who are scared of working through possibilities are scum, because it incriminates them and brings town closer to the truth. Also if you want you can sheep wos's complaints with the Suki's case, otherwise back up your declarations of war.

On February 26 2014 13:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:
gumshoe if suki had said she was a) nervous or b) baiting how would that have made her mafia?

On February 26 2014 13:39 gumshoe wrote:


It wouldn't, it would just get her to talk, which is something that asking "hey suki you maf?" would not acomplish. People on tl mafia always go ham with thier cases, I bilieve there is a middle route, that works partly because mafia are more likely to adress a non threatening case that most greens ,secure in their townieness, would choose not to.

On February 26 2014 13:41 raynpelikoneet wrote:
No actually Wave there is something behind this that i don't understand and gumshoe needs to explain. He is saying different things.

On February 26 2014 13:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:
No fuck.. Damn your posts are hard to read gumshoe. Wait a sec, i gotta read all of this crap again.

On February 26 2014 13:35 WaveofShadow wrote:

So which cases are not bad so far today?

Do you have a scumread yet?

On February 26 2014 14:11 raynpelikoneet wrote:

I retract from my townread on gumshoe.

On February 26 2014 14:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:


Okay two questions:
1) Why do you ask questions that have no purpose behind them? Townies do things for a reason, usually because they try to ask stuff that makes people reveal their alignment. What's your reason?
2) Where does suki's actual answer put her and why?

On February 26 2014 14:16 raynpelikoneet wrote:

I thought i knew what he was doing, apparently i didn't.
Also my read on Mocsta or anyone has nothing to do with their read on gumshoe (like i don't do connection cases - i didn't think yo uare scum because you think my townread is scum).

On February 26 2014 14:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Of course (1) is true Wave. As town you can always explain why you do stuff.

On February 26 2014 15:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Well that's why i said "misguided or "misguided" ".
I don't know what he is yet, if i had to say i'd say scum because he made really bad cases last game he was scum in but i need to see more from him.

On February 26 2014 16:18 Vivax wrote:


What I don't like about this post is that he can't simply say what he thinks about suki, but feels like has to put a Mocsta townread in front of it.

That reads to me like he feels pressured to overjustify for picking a side in the debate, which is something I could see scum doing in a town vs. town argument, after all you're always painfully aware that what you say just isn't right, so you need to create a story. And this looks like a story, the story of how you think suki could be scum ONLY after thinking that mocsta is town, which is something I don't see townies do at D1.

Explanation: Gumshoe feels that he can't attack suki without supporting Moc cause he thinks that he would look like his lacking suspicion of Mocsta was unjustified. Like, in a hypothetical town vs town argument as scum you would think that you can't attack one townie without clearing the other.

Moreover you can see that the part about Mocsta could be construed (in best-case scenario, ie gum town) as a justification for sheeping him ("but I feel good about his accusation not coming from a place of deceit"), but gumshoe doesn't exactly use Mocsta's arguments (tryhard looking posts, "why-not-vote-for-me-question") and brings his own, which strengthens the overjustification version of events.

The last bit with the nostalgia is either overanalyzing (if town) or making stuff up (if scum), so I think it should be disregarded entirely for now (@ geript).

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Nitpicking from this case is strictly forbidden, either you address all points and give a conclusive opinion or your remarks will be ignored.

On February 27 2014 04:37 Vivax wrote:


I'd rather find it odd/scummy if I had mentioned the vote-leader and not anyone else. Leave no stone unturned.

I don't think he's scum at the moment. I'd rather not expand on the reasons cause:

1. I could be wrong and I'd be taking away pressure from him.
2. I prefer to focus on the people I find suspicious.

On February 27 2014 05:01 geript wrote:

This was a post that felt like it wasn't funny enough to be town Wave. Like it's hard to explain but this post really bothered me on a visceral level and I couldn't explain why.


This one struck me as odd because I've only really experienced Wave dickwaggle on voice.


I missed this post earlier but it's really subtly super super towny. He's referring to JJD's interaction with Mocsta about Mocsta phoneposting Sukmi instead of Suki where Suki responds and JJD gets in there a bit Moc. It shows that Wave is connecting various points together at once; like his mind is bouncing around instead of specifically looking for something he can latch onto. That fact is not only supertown but like super super town for WoS as well.

I could go on further to explain but there's no point in doing further right now.

On February 27 2014 05:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:

bcz of what i have already said.

If you don't do anything real i will end up voting for you because scum want to break up people's townreads on other townies when they don't understand where they are coming for (yes, i just did that in GSL IV). Even if the read is as bullshit as you make it seem like it is in your opinion (which it isn't) it's far far more likely that it's townies who give town reads on other people based on bad reasoning at the start of the game because scum have no reason to do so.

So get over it and go do something else, right now you are tunneling someone for bullshit reasons and it makes you look bad. Even if you are right that definitely does not make Toad mafia and you are never going to convince anyone with your case. This is also something i think you would realize as town which makes me think you are even more scummy.

On February 27 2014 05:06 geript wrote:

I think so. I really doubt I've shat the bed on that read, but I'm not doing your dirty work for you wubby. Talk to me about the JJD read; I still want to know what you think about him.

On February 27 2014 05:07 raynpelikoneet wrote:

No but it has been mentioned before. Vivax already said later on he does not want to question people for same stuff other people do and that's all i see in that post.

On February 27 2014 05:10 geript wrote:

I don't know if I can wholly explain why it is for you especially, but like you tend to play while reasonably distracted. So when things jog your memory they actually jog your memory instead of faking it. Like there's not any specific, how do you describe it, agenda behind it. It just is what it is.

On February 27 2014 05:25 raynpelikoneet wrote:

The only thing that bothers me with JJD is that (i hope i am not lying here because i am not 100% sure if he has in fact done this ^^) he's not came up with a case that's actually JJD'ish already. But from what i read the post i just referenced in addition to Vivax' one, i stand behind my townread on him for the towniness of the thought process in that post.

On February 27 2014 05:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:
fucking shit geript has to be town.
but please please don't be like thins geript. okay?

On February 27 2014 05:37 raynpelikoneet wrote:

No he is not. In Survivor he was giving opinions left and right and commented on multiple cases in detail.
This is the "my way or highway" -geript that ends up being a massive shitfest or ragequit.

geript and Toad, you can't lynch each other, it's not gonna happen today. Could you both please at least talk about other people? This is going nowhere atm.

On February 27 2014 05:39 Vivax wrote:


Can you explain to me how you can find me suspicious for not-scumreading a guy you didn't even look into yet?

You want to hear reasons for him being something when you don't even know what he wrote?
What would you do with these reasons when you didn't even reach any own conclusions you could compare the information with?

But you're suspicious cause I give reasons for not talking about my read on him when you give out reads for "feels"?

##Vote WaveOfShadow

On February 27 2014 05:44 geript wrote:

No, quitting Survivor had nothing to do with anything in thread.

On February 27 2014 05:44 geript wrote:
Although i will say that had palmar been in this game I would've WOTC'd his ass out just for fear of rolling scum because he's always scummy on me when I'm scum.

On February 27 2014 06:49 Vivax wrote:
After rereading GSL IV I gotta say that I find gumshoe a lot less scummy. Basically all he has been doing in that game was justifying for people he could lynch, summarizing stuff and defending himself.

Here he actively participates in discussions, and I'm confident in stating that the post tone is a lot different.

Doesn't change where I stand with WoS though. Multiple of his actions don't make sense from a town point of view, him abandoning the gumshoe vote so quickly, suspecting me for not commenting on a player he doesn't know anything about, the not delivered look at a gumshoe scumgame he promised.

On February 27 2014 02:53 Vivax wrote:
Jeez why couldn't I roll scum in this game. You guys are all so busy with fighting each other in such an unproductive way, and nobody called me out for not doing anything since I posted those points on gumshoe

Oh well back to lurking.

On February 26 2014 16:18 Vivax wrote:


What I don't like about this post is that he can't simply say what he thinks about suki, but feels like has to put a Mocsta townread in front of it.

That reads to me like he feels pressured to overjustify for picking a side in the debate, which is something I could see scum doing in a town vs. town argument, after all you're always painfully aware that what you say just isn't right, so you need to create a story. And this looks like a story, the story of how you think suki could be scum ONLY after thinking that mocsta is town, which is something I don't see townies do at D1.

Explanation: Gumshoe feels that he can't attack suki without supporting Moc cause he thinks that he would look like his lacking suspicion of Mocsta was unjustified. Like, in a hypothetical town vs town argument as scum you would think that you can't attack one townie without clearing the other.

Moreover you can see that the part about Mocsta could be construed (in best-case scenario, ie gum town) as a justification for sheeping him ("but I feel good about his accusation not coming from a place of deceit"), but gumshoe doesn't exactly use Mocsta's arguments (tryhard looking posts, "why-not-vote-for-me-question") and brings his own, which strengthens the overjustification version of events.

The last bit with the nostalgia is either overanalyzing (if town) or making stuff up (if scum), so I think it should be disregarded entirely for now (@ geript).

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Nitpicking from this case is strictly forbidden, either you address all points and give a conclusive opinion or your remarks will be ignored.

No, I didn't read all of it at that point. I just found that post scummy and wrote the points right off the bat.

Interesting perspective isn't an opinion, Wave. And showing past posts that give you the impression that somebody could be scum is the essence of this game. How does gum having already been discussed affect the points brought up? it's completely irrelevant.

On February 27 2014 02:53 Vivax wrote:
Jeez why couldn't I roll scum in this game. You guys are all so busy with fighting each other in such an unproductive way, and nobody called me out for not doing anything since I posted those points on gumshoe

Oh well back to lurking.

On February 27 2014 04:28 Vivax wrote:
I thought we were supposed to gather information for town, not just for ourselves. Hence it matters to everyone why you ask questions that seem to lead to nowhere except for shitting up the thread with information that nobody can use productively cause the answers you request are mostly nobrainers, like the next one:

Gumshoe has my points to comment on, he can explain why he felt like he had to townread one and scumread the other, and why he calls suki scummy, then asks which circumstance is the correct explanation for her behavior in the case that she's town (which looks like he's offering her an out, taking away pressure from her).

He basically gave her two possible explanations for her behaviour to pick from that don't picture her as scummy, and that after mentioning points that point to him thinking the opposite.

On February 27 2014 04:37 Vivax wrote:


I'd rather find it odd/scummy if I had mentioned the vote-leader and not anyone else. Leave no stone unturned.

I don't think he's scum at the moment. I'd rather not expand on the reasons cause:

1. I could be wrong and I'd be taking away pressure from him.
2. I prefer to focus on the people I find suspicious.

On February 27 2014 08:21 Vivax wrote:
Imagine you're scum and a townie defends you thinking you're town.

Imagine you're town and a townie defends you when you're not really at acute danger

Imagine you're town and a scum defends you.

All alternatives aren't really attractive except for the scum party involved, except when you're at realistic danger of being lynched, which you weren't.

Shouting your townreads out loud without need only helps scum in picking their targets, for the nightkill and for lynches. They will know who they can push safely without facing resistance and who they have to NK.

Besides, town shouldn't spend time circlejerking around why somebody is town in such situations, but why somebody is scum. Of course it's situational, and in your case I didn't feel the need to redeem you from anything to find scum. I simply didn't find you scummy like others did, and that's all town needs to know.

On February 27 2014 05:39 Vivax wrote:


Can you explain to me how you can find me suspicious for not-scumreading a guy you didn't even look into yet?

You want to hear reasons for him being something when you don't even know what he wrote?
What would you do with these reasons when you didn't even reach any own conclusions you could compare the information with?

But you're suspicious cause I give reasons for not talking about my read on him when you give out reads for "feels"?

##Vote WaveOfShadow

On February 27 2014 06:49 Vivax wrote:
After rereading GSL IV I gotta say that I find gumshoe a lot less scummy. Basically all he has been doing in that game was justifying for people he could lynch, summarizing stuff and defending himself.

Here he actively participates in discussions, and I'm confident in stating that the post tone is a lot different.

Doesn't change where I stand with WoS though. Multiple of his actions don't make sense from a town point of view, him abandoning the gumshoe vote so quickly, suspecting me for not commenting on a player he doesn't know anything about, the not delivered look at a gumshoe scumgame he promised.

On February 27 2014 07:31 Vivax wrote:
I'll sheep ya, Rayn.
I want to add a few points though.

Filterskim reveals a very passive Mocsta, no cases on people he believes to be scum since he has been put into the defensive.

What I also don't understand is how he townreads WoS out of nowhere. He looked scummy to you, he looks scummy to me, and for him it's the strongest townread, and then he asks a question like this, which shouldn't interest him in the slightest if he's town imo:



##Unvote
##Vote Mocsta

Putting WoS on the backfire for now. Mocsta is a more solid (and likely) lynch.

On February 27 2014 09:26 Vivax wrote:
I thought you were town cause you sounded a lot more confident than in GSL, but now you sound TOO confident gum.

On February 27 2014 09:42 Holyflare wrote:
man wave, i've said all of that shit already :D:D:D:D

On February 27 2014 09:47 Mocsta wrote:
Wave I asked geript that question not to be inane but to try and push him to comment on something familiar to him other than toad.

I don't disagree with vivax but u confuse me selfishly.
He's a stronger read than me??? U think I'm a possibility for scum?

On February 27 2014 09:56 Mocsta wrote:

Not really able to talk or think deeply.

I dunno this is annoying. I have to focus on work but I can't stop refrshing

If u want something ask it. And if its detailed I will give it a crack at lunch time in say 4 hrs.

On February 27 2014 10:00 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Mocsta can you actually answer the points i have raised against you in more detail?

On February 27 2014 10:02 suki wrote:
Like for all the activity in the thread so many people have been called out as scum and there's no consensus. Toad and geript are at each others throats. Mocsta is being wagoned on. Thechyz, vivax now, gumshoe, wave. All of them can't possibly be mafia

Usually town has some direction day one.this game there is none

On February 27 2014 10:05 raynpelikoneet wrote:

I am more interested in my read on Mocsta at the moment. I don't care about Vivax because he is voting for the target i think is most likely mafia. In case Mocsta proves himself as town then i'll look into Vivax.

I want more from the people who are NOT voting for Mocsta (don't think he is mafia) and not pushing any lynch. If we have a counter-wagon or Mocsta starts shitting townie bricks then we can talk.

I think your case on Vivax is okay, but my case on Mocsta is better. If you want more detailed answer you have to wait until things happen.

On February 27 2014 10:06 Vivax wrote:
Hey WoS, who do you think would be my scumbuddies?

On February 27 2014 10:10 Vivax wrote:


And if you can't lynch me? What will you do then? After all there gotta be two other scum somewhere right?

In my opinion your vote will end somewhere meaningless.

On February 27 2014 10:18 Mocsta wrote:
t all based on knowing my schedule.

I made that post not thinking I would be continually distracted.
I.e. I thought it would be my last post for the cycle.

As for chz my case hasn't changed
Ctrl f vote chez

I'm on fine. Too hard to paste. Sorry

Now, TheChyz could be super paranoid town that doesnt want to give away information. HOWEVER, I dont attribute his posting as giving that vibe. I suppose this is epitomised by:

The phrasing is not fluid or natural to me.
Regarding fluidity: I think this would be written "Also in bold, as town I never have thought "xxxx"
Regarding natural: I know when I've rolled scum, i often write a statement, proof read and then go.. ahh.. let me add "when town" typically at the end.
This feels very much the same. i.e. the "as town" component is a last addition designed to give strength to the argument.

On February 27 2014 10:20 suki wrote:

Ya but If he's scum and I just madea big case on him calling him scum for not makinga case on rayn you think he would try to look good and make upa reason but instead he sticks to his guns. That seems more townie to me

On February 27 2014 10:34 Mocsta wrote:
Wave
U r misreading what suki wrote

She asked me to make a case on rayn
I said no because my priority is chz

Her point if view is that as scum with low credit I would try to appease her, thus would garnish info in rayn.
Instead I believe chz is scum and approached the game in a way to focus

On February 27 2014 10:36 Holyflare wrote:


you want me to actually quote everything just because you're too lazy to read my filter??

On February 27 2014 10:40 WaveofShadow wrote:

I read it, but I don't see anything in there in specific relating to what I wrote.
You're calling him scum for his voting patterns while I am calling him scum for not reading the thread/trying and bad justifications.

On February 27 2014 10:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Yes it's quite bad. I don't close out the possibility of them both being mafia.

On February 26 2014 17:39 Mocsta wrote:

LOL.

So Im town if my reads dont evolve as the game progresses
and scum if my reads O* evolve as the game progresses

Good luck getting me lynched with that argument.

Do you have a problem I listed Suki as town because of my history with Suki; or becuase you disagree?

On February 27 2014 11:40 geript wrote:
So I can vote for the following peeps:
HF
Gummybear
JJD
[red]Toadscum

On February 27 2014 11:55 raynpelikoneet wrote:

I am going to answer this. What the fuck are you doing?

On February 27 2014 11:59 gumshoe wrote:


Fuck you man, I dont wanna hear shit from you, your so fucking blind it scares me, how the fuck can you believe that Moc is scum after the game that you just hydrad with him!? The two play styles are totally different. You should be the one defending him honestly, yet your so caught up in your own massive ego that even when you realize how scummy suki is, you still wont give up on Moc, cause that would mean you were wrong wouldnt it? And we cant have that now can we, cause thats never happened before right?

On February 27 2014 12:11 geript wrote:

No, I read it. But this Vivax isn't all bullshiazazzly confusiony. He's like all bullshazazzly stupid weird reasoning. Like the former is his scum play from memory and the later is his town play from memory.

On February 27 2014 12:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Like now i have to decide - based on that statement - if i think Mocsta is BS enough to do what he did as town (which i know he is because he has done that before and he knows it), or if he is scum bullshitting with fake BS shit.

Then, when i make my decision i will never ever look to him again and treat him as confirmed!alignment.
Which is fucking shit but that's how it goes.

On February 27 2014 13:45 Mocsta wrote:
Also. Did vivax actually address your case?

On February 27 2014 13:45 Mocsta wrote:
Wave

Do u find it odd that geript is much more assertive when describing why I could be town vs vivax?

On February 27 2014 14:01 Holyflare wrote:


well naturally i agree with it because i wrote similar things :o

On February 27 2014 14:05 Mocsta wrote:
Wave I agreed with it too Lol...

I can swing to chz or vivax as it stands

I'm on chz now cos he's still not producing anything useful

On February 27 2014 14:15 geript wrote:

Nah dude this is really weird for him. He wants me to not ignore and post on his shazazzly Vivax posts but has never commented on his townread on toad or why he thinks I'm wrong on toad. It's not only one way. Like he's been weird on lots of little things but I'm totes keen on trying to read him right but this shazazzle doesn't fly with me.

On February 27 2014 14:38 Holyflare wrote:
ok wave for the sake of sanity, let's be friends! i'll re-read/discuss your vivax stuffz

On February 27 2014 14:40 suki wrote:
I like Wave's case on Vivax and it was one of the ones that stood out to me when I was rereading the thread.

I have a strong townread on Wave and I'd be willing to sheep him on Vivax.



I think this was already pointed out but this post is weird as hell. He's trying to give a townie explanation why he should withhold information.



Vivax's counter-attack on Wave seems really forced. Like 'you called me scummy for this? No you're scummy for this!'



Vivax misses the point of Wave's pressure entirely and basically OMGUSes him.

So in short I would be fine with Vivax lynch as well today.

On February 27 2014 14:38 Holyflare wrote:
ok wave for the sake of sanity, let's be friends! i'll re-read/discuss your vivax stuffz

On February 27 2014 21:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Mocsta makes a post that he knows will raise a question to me that cannot possibly be answered. I know there is like 99% chance mods have told him they will not give him town for his request but it's still a possiblilty that will always be nakking at my back and it's a fucking cheap thing to do as scum. Like if someone says "if you don't believe i am town now i will never play a game with you again". I don't like it so i just consider him town and i don't care what anyone thinks about it.

On February 27 2014 22:20 Vivax wrote:
If his meta wasn't so different from GSL I'd be still thinking that gum is scum.

The post where he comes in to "moderate" between you and suki just feels super wrong.

Also Moc you're pretty prickly for a normal question, but let me go into detail.
Everyone was bantering, fake miller claims, harry potter. Off the bat townreads, you and geript were the most serious guys during that phase, geript for Toad's townread, you for suki's posting.

Anyway, you commented on WoS post reading suki as town cause feels saying



WoS says it's not sarcasm, ie town read serious.

Next post you somehow manage to get the illusion that you are wave's scumread



How do you explain that? I think it's telling that at such a stage you are already so much into lynch politics, going as far as to imagine people scumreading you when they didn't say anything. But maybe you can explain where you got that illusion.

Going on with the fullgame reread in the meantime.

On February 26 2014 10:00 WaveofShadow wrote:

You sure you don't mean </b>?
I was about to ask how that could be construed as sarcasm but then I read it again. No, it's not sarcasm.

On February 26 2014 10:50 WaveofShadow wrote:

The only thing it could be is my subtle joke at his PYP: LoL scumslip of using QT tags in thread. How he takes that as me implying he is scum and then furthering the suspicion across like three posts is beyond me. In fact, there should be no way anyone else picks up on that, especially people who weren't in that game. (Maybe why he asked you, but still, really subtle.)

On February 27 2014 22:31 Mocsta wrote:
ninja'd me wave. indeed you did.
Much like my question to Geript (about you), I used that post towards Rayn.
Frankly, I was suspect of you at that time (for defending Suki), so the question was a win-win for me.

On February 26 2014 10:51 Mocsta wrote:

This is correct, my bad.

On February 27 2014 22:29 Vivax wrote:
Rayn put your vote off of me, you're better than that.



This vote doesn't make any sense, unless WoS explains exactly what made him suspicious of gumshoe at the time, cause the explanation is lacking in his filter. He only says gum should deliver a not meta explanation.

On February 27 2014 22:37 Vivax wrote:
What made you think he looked scummy, wave. That's the point of the question. Was it his post about Moc and suki, or the followup?

On February 27 2014 22:42 Vivax wrote:


Dude, you keep not saying anything.
If you found him suspicious, there must have been a reason. What was the reason? Don't say feels.

On February 26 2014 10:22 WaveofShadow wrote:

Just establishing my dominance, honey.
Yes gumshoe's post was reasonable, but also easy. It doesn't say a thing to me about yours or his alignment.
I was curious as to whether or not he'd actually be playing this game as I'm used to him either playing his heart out, or lurking like crazy.

On February 26 2014 10:33 WaveofShadow wrote:

Both you and Mocsta assume I was asking you to try to help me figure out your alignment.
You even say it after I already TOLD Mocsta it was simply to find out whether you were going to play or not this time around.
Any particular reason you find it necessary to repeat?

Holyflare, I like to live on the edge.
Let's volcano it up. Will anyone else be joining us on our journey? That road looks mighty empty.

On February 26 2014 10:43 WaveofShadow wrote:

This reads exactly like your post on Mocsta and I don't like it. Do you always base your reads entirely on their most recent game? (Speaking of which, don't talk about ongoing games).

Toad I actually did follow Geript's thought process to some degree.
And I actually had no idea about the miller stuff until you just mentioned it.

If you're sticking around Toad I can discuss with you a little.

On February 26 2014 11:21 WaveofShadow wrote:

Nah I'm generally okay with it. I don't find it alignment indicative for Rayn.

Something JJD said reminded me of something:

In this post gumshoe doesn't offer the option that doesn't fit his idea of what suki is doing. (For example, she is neither AND is town.)
Town should always be considering all options.

On February 27 2014 22:43 Mocsta wrote:
I find this post curious.
I asked my question in the first place because:



The entire premise of Vivax argument is based on Suki + Mocsta = town.
Yet when queried about me being town I get "Not yet" with some nice doors opening to move onto Suki too.
Which again conquers his gumshoe is scum argument.

WoS, i cant remember ya case; did you touch on this stuff?

On February 27 2014 22:54 Vivax wrote:


And later you say



Which I already addressed earlier stating that gumshoe actually did consider all options, which you say is townie, and I say is scummy cause of the way he did it.

In fact, gumshoe IS offering the alternate scenario where suki isn't scum, and offering her the explanations for her behaviour in that case, hence WoS is actually stating the contrary to what I stated. He says town should be considering all options, I say if you find somebody scummy you don't call it out and then put an explanation out there that the accused can use against your own argument.

On February 27 2014 22:56 Vivax wrote:
Especially because of the first quote I'm not buying your suspicion of gumshoe, and the way you abandoned your vote on him so easily, and how you didn't poke him when he said he had stuff he didn't want to share at the moment, and and and

On February 27 2014 22:59 Vivax wrote:
Wave asks gum if he should policy lynch him for lurking 2 minutes after he posted something that Wave said to be not alignment indicative.

Later Wave touches upon the same post to say what's scummy about it.

On February 27 2014 23:14 Vivax wrote:
It goes on that the way WoS treated gum throughout his "suspicion" is not townie.

Calls him out for lurking, says the post said nothing about gum's alignment, later touches upon that same post to say that town should consider all options.

Asks gumshoe for metaless case, gumshoe doesn't deliver. WoS doesn't care that gumshoe doesn't want to share information, and says that he starts to lean sloppy town on gumshoe, yet keeps his vote on him.

On February 27 2014 23:18 Holyflare wrote:
wave wanna chat about the vivax stuff now?

On February 27 2014 23:24 raynpelikoneet wrote:

No i don't really want to. You all can lynch Mocsta if you want to.
My game was ruined D1 and i don't care.

On February 28 2014 05:49 Ange777 wrote:

Page 58. Why would Mocsta be modconfirmed town based on that comment??