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like seriously, I'm tempted to try to get you lynched for saying that, because that's literally what scum want to do.
for clarity I'm talking about this post:
On January 09 2014 05:52 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 05:50 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 05:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 09 2014 05:24 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
In efforts to straighten this thread out from the shitflinging contest that it is: here are reads.
Corazon - Senseless, yelling at people, calling people scum. It's difficult to formulate a decent read on him without factoring in the douchebaggery involved. Do scum act like this often? Or is this something specifically attributed to Corazon? If anyone has a scum corazon game on hand I'd like to see it.
@Cora
I want you to calm down. Give us your top scumreads with 2-3 reasons why for each. Honestly the sense is just strew apart in the thread, maybe it's there if I can get a consolidated post. You've been a bitch to me already for no reason, and I have no problem lynching you. If you're town I want the best reads you can give me.
Yamato - I think he's town. Based on extractor I don't see a reason he cant be town here, and lynching him day 1 is probably a mistake.
JAT - leaning scum. When I was arguing with rayn about the semantic thing (which, by the way, people have to stop saying shit thats confusing) he jumped right on with a few posts to bolster the argument which was clearly false. I also didn't like how he fought with bugs about the kush thing. It also looks like he misinterpreted my-artanis interaction at the beginning of the day which didn't make sense to me.
Rayn - Probably town, though Idk what rayn scum looks like. He tunnels on cora and bullshits at him which is fine (well.. w.e.). I am really hesitant about listening to his reasoning after extractor.
Thrawn - looks town, would bang.
Artanis - Idk where the hell he went after voting me for crap reasons. Tunneled onto me for similarly crap reasons. Would lynch if anyone is down.
So right now I'm looking at JAT/Artanis or a policy of cora/kush. - Read on yamato is not a read. "I can't see why he can't be town" - Read on JAT is so bullshit it probably comes out of CC's ears. That's the worst reasoning for a read i have seen in this game because every single thing is so wrong. - Read on me is not a read. Discrediting me for bullshit reasons, i would have lynched mafia on D2 if idiots didn't hammer yamato. - Read on thrawn is bullshit. - Read on Artanis is bullshit because CC did scummy stuff, then Artanis called him out for it. After that CC changed his reasoning to something else, but later on went back to the original reasoning for no reason. It's just so stupid and every other post the reasoning for Artanis being mafia changes from one thing to another. Suppose we lynched Cheese. He flips town. What happens then? Then his reads are still bullshit and we can start all over again.
Someone's reads being bad or badly reasoned are not enough to call them scum and lynch them unless they have a history of being good AND if the reasoning is clearly bad despite there being good evidence for them to have good reads in the same situation.
There are plenty of townies who don't often catch that many scum who often don't get lynched despite being called bad every game, because you don't just lynch someone for having bad reads. You also don't nonchalantly say that it's their fault for getting lynched after you fuck up and lynch them for the wrong reasons, cause it's the voters' faults.
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On January 09 2014 05:55 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 05:53 wherebugsgo wrote:
wtf??
That's not how this game works. You can't just fucking lynch someone and then not accept that you messed up. No bugs, that's not how the game works. When a townie gets lynched it's their fault, not anyone else's. They were the scummiest person in the game because they had the most votes at the end of the day.
holy fuck I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not
this is jubjub level logic.
This is how you'll never improve, if every time you lynch a townie you blame the guy for getting lynched instead of asking yourself why your goddamn read was wrong.
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On January 09 2014 05:59 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 05:56 wherebugsgo wrote:like seriously, I'm tempted to try to get you lynched for saying that, because that's literally what scum want to do. for clarity I'm talking about this post: On January 09 2014 05:52 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:50 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 05:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 09 2014 05:24 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
In efforts to straighten this thread out from the shitflinging contest that it is: here are reads.
Corazon - Senseless, yelling at people, calling people scum. It's difficult to formulate a decent read on him without factoring in the douchebaggery involved. Do scum act like this often? Or is this something specifically attributed to Corazon? If anyone has a scum corazon game on hand I'd like to see it.
@Cora
I want you to calm down. Give us your top scumreads with 2-3 reasons why for each. Honestly the sense is just strew apart in the thread, maybe it's there if I can get a consolidated post. You've been a bitch to me already for no reason, and I have no problem lynching you. If you're town I want the best reads you can give me.
Yamato - I think he's town. Based on extractor I don't see a reason he cant be town here, and lynching him day 1 is probably a mistake.
JAT - leaning scum. When I was arguing with rayn about the semantic thing (which, by the way, people have to stop saying shit thats confusing) he jumped right on with a few posts to bolster the argument which was clearly false. I also didn't like how he fought with bugs about the kush thing. It also looks like he misinterpreted my-artanis interaction at the beginning of the day which didn't make sense to me.
Rayn - Probably town, though Idk what rayn scum looks like. He tunnels on cora and bullshits at him which is fine (well.. w.e.). I am really hesitant about listening to his reasoning after extractor.
Thrawn - looks town, would bang.
Artanis - Idk where the hell he went after voting me for crap reasons. Tunneled onto me for similarly crap reasons. Would lynch if anyone is down.
So right now I'm looking at JAT/Artanis or a policy of cora/kush. - Read on yamato is not a read. "I can't see why he can't be town" - Read on JAT is so bullshit it probably comes out of CC's ears. That's the worst reasoning for a read i have seen in this game because every single thing is so wrong. - Read on me is not a read. Discrediting me for bullshit reasons, i would have lynched mafia on D2 if idiots didn't hammer yamato. - Read on thrawn is bullshit. - Read on Artanis is bullshit because CC did scummy stuff, then Artanis called him out for it. After that CC changed his reasoning to something else, but later on went back to the original reasoning for no reason. It's just so stupid and every other post the reasoning for Artanis being mafia changes from one thing to another. Suppose we lynched Cheese. He flips town. What happens then? Then his reads are still bullshit and we can start all over again. Someone's reads being bad or badly reasoned are not enough to call them scum and lynch them unless they have a history of being good AND if the reasoning is clearly bad despite there being good evidence for them to have good reads in the same situation. There are plenty of townies who don't often catch that many scum who often don't get lynched despite being called bad every game, because you don't just lynch someone for having bad reads. You also don't nonchalantly say that it's their fault for getting lynched after you fuck up and lynch them for the wrong reasons, cause it's the voters' faults. You asked a question and I answered it. If we lynched CC right now pretty much the only thing we would learn is his alignment.
EXACTLY
I'm trying to avoid frothing at the mouth at rayn's vote on CC for precisely this fucking reason. We don't achieve anything by lynching CC now, the vote is fucking wasted because we spent all day pressuring TWO OTHER PLAYERS.
How do you people take so long to fucking understand this??
I've been saying we need to consolidate for over 12 hours now. The town has gone to shit because of the few players we have they are completely unwilling to listen and cooperate. Instead we have a shitfest like every other minute.
Killing Corazon will probably rid ourselves of a significant amount of the shitposting, given that he's managed to piss off myself, rayn, WoS, and basically everyone else he's talked to. Killing kush would probably accomplish a similar thing but he's actually easier to ignore and harder to read.
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On January 09 2014 06:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 05:57 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 05:55 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 09 2014 05:53 wherebugsgo wrote:
wtf??
That's not how this game works. You can't just fucking lynch someone and then not accept that you messed up. No bugs, that's not how the game works. When a townie gets lynched it's their fault, not anyone else's. They were the scummiest person in the game because they had the most votes at the end of the day. holy fuck I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not this is jubjub level logic. This is how you'll never improve, if every time you lynch a townie you blame the guy for getting lynched instead of asking yourself why your goddamn read was wrong. I dunno, when i started playing mafia i read Palmar's comment on who to blame when a townie gets mislynched. I have been mislynched exactly 4 times in my ~55 town games, in 3 of them i basically intentionally killed myself because i did not want to play anymore and one time i could not convince the town i was town because someone made a case on me after i lynched mafia on D2 "you must be bussing, so we should kill you and then we should kill the mafia's counter-wagon, obviously you are both bussing, no other option kthxbye". I could not argue against that shitlogic because everyone in town used the same shitlogic. Whose fault? My fault.
Sure, when you yourself analyze your own play you should ask yourself why you got lynched. The blame is not completely on one side or the other, but statistically speaking the onus should be on the voters because they carry more power than the single guy getting lynched. The guy getting lynched is one voice. It's one thing if the lynched player completely failed his own defense, but in retrospect you almost always have multiple townies on lynches. It's just the way the game works.
Also Palmar is historically one of the few, if not the only veteran players on the forum that I know has that opinion. Any good mafia player will tell you to reevaluate your reads after the flip because playing the blame game when the flip happens is a good way to get the town into a downward spiral. You can't blame the player who got lynched because that does not accomplish anything and it does not change anything. Any effort gone into blaming the player would be much better spent actually analyzing what happened and what went wrong, and potentially any pushes from scum that helped cause the lynch in the first place.
As a thought experiment think about what would happen if you have two players who are roughly equal at arguing against one another, but on opposite alignments. This actually seems to occur fairly often in games. I myself have been involved as scum in pretty tense lynch situations. In my first scum game, my team and I managed to prevent me from being lynched by one vote. In almost every other scum game I have gotten into a fight with another townie and successfully gotten him lynched, or helped my team lynch the main wagon (or even control the lynch completely by making only townies the suspects) by exerting my influence. In one game the lynch was between me+Radfield hydra and a hydra of sandroba and chaoser, IIRC, in which sandro+chaoser got lynched. Was it their fault for getting lynched? Definitely not, and I would say especially not given how hard I worked to get them lynched.
This is a bit long-winded but my point is that scum strive for mislynches, that's how they win the game, so often when you have the urge to blame a townie you need to realize that there's lots of information even in a mislynch that will point to where you as an incorrect townie voter went astray and where scum capitalized on these mistakes to carry a mislynch through. The blame game only serves to hide this information so you'll be more likely to repeat yourself again come the next lynch. That's why saying things like "well, we lynch him, and then if we're wrong we just lynch someone else on our list" is fucking stupid, because it's just a very blind and irresponsible way to play the game
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On January 09 2014 06:07 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 06:04 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 05:59 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:56 wherebugsgo wrote:like seriously, I'm tempted to try to get you lynched for saying that, because that's literally what scum want to do. for clarity I'm talking about this post: On January 09 2014 05:52 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:50 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 05:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 09 2014 05:24 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
In efforts to straighten this thread out from the shitflinging contest that it is: here are reads.
Corazon - Senseless, yelling at people, calling people scum. It's difficult to formulate a decent read on him without factoring in the douchebaggery involved. Do scum act like this often? Or is this something specifically attributed to Corazon? If anyone has a scum corazon game on hand I'd like to see it.
@Cora
I want you to calm down. Give us your top scumreads with 2-3 reasons why for each. Honestly the sense is just strew apart in the thread, maybe it's there if I can get a consolidated post. You've been a bitch to me already for no reason, and I have no problem lynching you. If you're town I want the best reads you can give me.
Yamato - I think he's town. Based on extractor I don't see a reason he cant be town here, and lynching him day 1 is probably a mistake.
JAT - leaning scum. When I was arguing with rayn about the semantic thing (which, by the way, people have to stop saying shit thats confusing) he jumped right on with a few posts to bolster the argument which was clearly false. I also didn't like how he fought with bugs about the kush thing. It also looks like he misinterpreted my-artanis interaction at the beginning of the day which didn't make sense to me.
Rayn - Probably town, though Idk what rayn scum looks like. He tunnels on cora and bullshits at him which is fine (well.. w.e.). I am really hesitant about listening to his reasoning after extractor.
Thrawn - looks town, would bang.
Artanis - Idk where the hell he went after voting me for crap reasons. Tunneled onto me for similarly crap reasons. Would lynch if anyone is down.
So right now I'm looking at JAT/Artanis or a policy of cora/kush. - Read on yamato is not a read. "I can't see why he can't be town" - Read on JAT is so bullshit it probably comes out of CC's ears. That's the worst reasoning for a read i have seen in this game because every single thing is so wrong. - Read on me is not a read. Discrediting me for bullshit reasons, i would have lynched mafia on D2 if idiots didn't hammer yamato. - Read on thrawn is bullshit. - Read on Artanis is bullshit because CC did scummy stuff, then Artanis called him out for it. After that CC changed his reasoning to something else, but later on went back to the original reasoning for no reason. It's just so stupid and every other post the reasoning for Artanis being mafia changes from one thing to another. Suppose we lynched Cheese. He flips town. What happens then? Then his reads are still bullshit and we can start all over again. Someone's reads being bad or badly reasoned are not enough to call them scum and lynch them unless they have a history of being good AND if the reasoning is clearly bad despite there being good evidence for them to have good reads in the same situation. There are plenty of townies who don't often catch that many scum who often don't get lynched despite being called bad every game, because you don't just lynch someone for having bad reads. You also don't nonchalantly say that it's their fault for getting lynched after you fuck up and lynch them for the wrong reasons, cause it's the voters' faults. You asked a question and I answered it. If we lynched CC right now pretty much the only thing we would learn is his alignment. EXACTLY I'm trying to avoid frothing at the mouth at rayn's vote on CC for precisely this fucking reason. We don't achieve anything by lynching CC now, the vote is fucking wasted because we spent all day pressuring TWO OTHER PLAYERS. How do you people take so long to fucking understand this?? I've been saying we need to consolidate for over 12 hours now. The town has gone to shit because of the few players we have they are completely unwilling to listen and cooperate. Instead we have a shitfest like every other minute. Killing Corazon will probably rid ourselves of a significant amount of the shitposting, given that he's managed to piss off myself, rayn, WoS, and basically everyone else he's talked to. Killing kush would probably accomplish a similar thing but he's actually easier to ignore and harder to read. I don't understand you. You posted the question - I answered exactly the way you think yourself and I am scummy for it.
uh what
I didn't call you scummy. Your self fixation is starting to bother me a bit.
##unvote
##vote Corazon
I need to think over some things. Probably should start taking notes as well. I'll be back after the flip, but I'll be checking in on the thread periodically until then.
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On January 09 2014 06:19 WaveofShadow wrote:
I don't feel nearly as good about lynching Cora for policy reasons than i do kush, so at the very least I'd like to try and come to terms with it if I'll be switching my vote or even better, actually determine if he is scum. (yeah I get that the shitposting would be toned down a little but again, knowing he's actually attempting to contribute and post, despite enraging so many of us makes it harder for me. By comparison kush manages to enrage me by barely posting/what little posting he does.)
What it comes down to for me is mainly his behaviour here. The weird tunneling and nitpicking of one particular thing and not letting it go, the almost intentional baiting/stupidity/lying...? If this is intentional then Cora is scum without a doubt. Like I said earlier somewhere though would a town Cora have gotten angrier? Shit things up even harder? Is he picking these fights on purpose and/or remaining...calmer and more measured than i would expect because of recent attempts to tone down his behaviour?
I'm not super confident on either side of the lynch, which is sad, but the lynch gives us more to work on than anything else. Supposing he is town, giving Cora time is probably not going to benefit us at all. In fact, the sooner we kill him probably the better at least for town atmosphere regardless of what alignment he is.
on the other hand, giving yamato a day will almost certainly help us read his alignment better, and yamato isn't actively destructive to town. He at worst is about as bad as a scummy lurker-being hard to lynch through subpar activity as opposed to being destructive. And this is all, granted, from what I understand and have witnessed of his play as scum. As town I know he has the potential to be contributory, so assuming he can get over his demoralization he can definitely be an asset. If at the end of night and 12-24 hours into tomorrow he still continues his current trend we can just kill him then.
36 hours is a long time for things to happen, so many things can change by then.
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On January 09 2014 06:22 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 05:56 wherebugsgo wrote:like seriously, I'm tempted to try to get you lynched for saying that, because that's literally what scum want to do. for clarity I'm talking about this post: On January 09 2014 05:52 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:50 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 05:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 09 2014 05:24 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
In efforts to straighten this thread out from the shitflinging contest that it is: here are reads.
Corazon - Senseless, yelling at people, calling people scum. It's difficult to formulate a decent read on him without factoring in the douchebaggery involved. Do scum act like this often? Or is this something specifically attributed to Corazon? If anyone has a scum corazon game on hand I'd like to see it.
@Cora
I want you to calm down. Give us your top scumreads with 2-3 reasons why for each. Honestly the sense is just strew apart in the thread, maybe it's there if I can get a consolidated post. You've been a bitch to me already for no reason, and I have no problem lynching you. If you're town I want the best reads you can give me.
Yamato - I think he's town. Based on extractor I don't see a reason he cant be town here, and lynching him day 1 is probably a mistake.
JAT - leaning scum. When I was arguing with rayn about the semantic thing (which, by the way, people have to stop saying shit thats confusing) he jumped right on with a few posts to bolster the argument which was clearly false. I also didn't like how he fought with bugs about the kush thing. It also looks like he misinterpreted my-artanis interaction at the beginning of the day which didn't make sense to me.
Rayn - Probably town, though Idk what rayn scum looks like. He tunnels on cora and bullshits at him which is fine (well.. w.e.). I am really hesitant about listening to his reasoning after extractor.
Thrawn - looks town, would bang.
Artanis - Idk where the hell he went after voting me for crap reasons. Tunneled onto me for similarly crap reasons. Would lynch if anyone is down.
So right now I'm looking at JAT/Artanis or a policy of cora/kush. - Read on yamato is not a read. "I can't see why he can't be town" - Read on JAT is so bullshit it probably comes out of CC's ears. That's the worst reasoning for a read i have seen in this game because every single thing is so wrong. - Read on me is not a read. Discrediting me for bullshit reasons, i would have lynched mafia on D2 if idiots didn't hammer yamato. - Read on thrawn is bullshit. - Read on Artanis is bullshit because CC did scummy stuff, then Artanis called him out for it. After that CC changed his reasoning to something else, but later on went back to the original reasoning for no reason. It's just so stupid and every other post the reasoning for Artanis being mafia changes from one thing to another. Suppose we lynched Cheese. He flips town. What happens then? Then his reads are still bullshit and we can start all over again. Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 06:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 06:07 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 06:04 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 05:59 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:56 wherebugsgo wrote:like seriously, I'm tempted to try to get you lynched for saying that, because that's literally what scum want to do. for clarity I'm talking about this post: On January 09 2014 05:52 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:50 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 05:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 09 2014 05:24 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
In efforts to straighten this thread out from the shitflinging contest that it is: here are reads.
Corazon - Senseless, yelling at people, calling people scum. It's difficult to formulate a decent read on him without factoring in the douchebaggery involved. Do scum act like this often? Or is this something specifically attributed to Corazon? If anyone has a scum corazon game on hand I'd like to see it.
@Cora
I want you to calm down. Give us your top scumreads with 2-3 reasons why for each. Honestly the sense is just strew apart in the thread, maybe it's there if I can get a consolidated post. You've been a bitch to me already for no reason, and I have no problem lynching you. If you're town I want the best reads you can give me.
Yamato - I think he's town. Based on extractor I don't see a reason he cant be town here, and lynching him day 1 is probably a mistake.
JAT - leaning scum. When I was arguing with rayn about the semantic thing (which, by the way, people have to stop saying shit thats confusing) he jumped right on with a few posts to bolster the argument which was clearly false. I also didn't like how he fought with bugs about the kush thing. It also looks like he misinterpreted my-artanis interaction at the beginning of the day which didn't make sense to me.
Rayn - Probably town, though Idk what rayn scum looks like. He tunnels on cora and bullshits at him which is fine (well.. w.e.). I am really hesitant about listening to his reasoning after extractor.
Thrawn - looks town, would bang.
Artanis - Idk where the hell he went after voting me for crap reasons. Tunneled onto me for similarly crap reasons. Would lynch if anyone is down.
So right now I'm looking at JAT/Artanis or a policy of cora/kush. - Read on yamato is not a read. "I can't see why he can't be town" - Read on JAT is so bullshit it probably comes out of CC's ears. That's the worst reasoning for a read i have seen in this game because every single thing is so wrong. - Read on me is not a read. Discrediting me for bullshit reasons, i would have lynched mafia on D2 if idiots didn't hammer yamato. - Read on thrawn is bullshit. - Read on Artanis is bullshit because CC did scummy stuff, then Artanis called him out for it. After that CC changed his reasoning to something else, but later on went back to the original reasoning for no reason. It's just so stupid and every other post the reasoning for Artanis being mafia changes from one thing to another. Suppose we lynched Cheese. He flips town. What happens then? Then his reads are still bullshit and we can start all over again. Someone's reads being bad or badly reasoned are not enough to call them scum and lynch them unless they have a history of being good AND if the reasoning is clearly bad despite there being good evidence for them to have good reads in the same situation. There are plenty of townies who don't often catch that many scum who often don't get lynched despite being called bad every game, because you don't just lynch someone for having bad reads. You also don't nonchalantly say that it's their fault for getting lynched after you fuck up and lynch them for the wrong reasons, cause it's the voters' faults. You asked a question and I answered it. If we lynched CC right now pretty much the only thing we would learn is his alignment. EXACTLY I'm trying to avoid frothing at the mouth at rayn's vote on CC for precisely this fucking reason. We don't achieve anything by lynching CC now, the vote is fucking wasted because we spent all day pressuring TWO OTHER PLAYERS. How do you people take so long to fucking understand this?? I've been saying we need to consolidate for over 12 hours now. The town has gone to shit because of the few players we have they are completely unwilling to listen and cooperate. Instead we have a shitfest like every other minute. Killing Corazon will probably rid ourselves of a significant amount of the shitposting, given that he's managed to piss off myself, rayn, WoS, and basically everyone else he's talked to. Killing kush would probably accomplish a similar thing but he's actually easier to ignore and harder to read. I don't understand you. You posted the question - I answered exactly the way you think yourself and I am scummy for it. uh what I didn't call you scummy. Your self fixation is starting to bother me a bit. What the hell man...
I should have been clearer.
I'd ordinarily call you scummy, but I was merely tempted because I think you just legitimately don't know better.
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On January 09 2014 06:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Of course you should re-evaluate your reads but if people actually kept things simple as in how every townie should play:
1) establish your innocence
2) try to lynch mafia and only that
town would win every game. When you have a town that works together the town wins. When people are clear in their thoughts and clarify their thought process.
When you have people who only post half-assed comments, people who claim that they will not play, and people who are clearly not reading the thead and refuse to cooperate you already know you are going to lose the game if those people are alive at the end of the game. It doesn't even fucking matter if they are town, because they do not play towards town's win condition regardless of their alignment.
That's why those people get lynched, that's why i get angry, and that's why people hate me, because when i get angry i become mean towards those people - i can't stand people who sign up to games and don't even try to play. If you can post 2 posts / day phase and have time for no more do not fucking use that time to argue about semantics or something irrelevant, read the thread and make one coherent case on your top scumread and try to push it. That's it, even if you are wrong or miss some other stuff or fail to consolidate it shows you have a clear opinion and you stand behind it. If you give 8 half-assed reads which are not even reads or are not explained or that make no sense given what's actually happened in the game you are not trying to get scum lynched, you are trying to do something you can't possibly achieve if you are town. Who cares who is your #4 scumread, who cares if you do not like player X. You are here to lynch mafia and not for telling who is a cool guy and who is not.
And then people say, after doing that, "but i had no time to play". It makes me see red.
Again, I agree with you, but realistically you can only kill lurkers if you can afford to spare lynches on them.
When the number of people that you can reasonably read simply based on post activity numbers in the 40% range it's safe to say that you can't afford to lynch lurkers, because you basically can't differentiate them.
It's much better in this case to kill Corazon even if some people have doubts on him.
It's clear he's not going to contribute, as he's said nothing of original value despite showing in past games that he has the capability and despite being around practically all the time. Keeping him alive over Yamato is obviously suboptimal, because I think most people would probably agree that Yamato has a greater potential to be helpful to town anyway. Lastly more people are comfortable with his lynch than yamato, which isn't an amazing reason to lynch him, as people can be wrong, but at this point we have nothing better to go on.
It's hard to give lurkers an ultimatum when you have 3-4 lynches before losing and the number of lurkers is actually greater than that
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On January 09 2014 06:28 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 06:26 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 06:19 WaveofShadow wrote:
I don't feel nearly as good about lynching Cora for policy reasons than i do kush, so at the very least I'd like to try and come to terms with it if I'll be switching my vote or even better, actually determine if he is scum. (yeah I get that the shitposting would be toned down a little but again, knowing he's actually attempting to contribute and post, despite enraging so many of us makes it harder for me. By comparison kush manages to enrage me by barely posting/what little posting he does.)
What it comes down to for me is mainly his behaviour here. The weird tunneling and nitpicking of one particular thing and not letting it go, the almost intentional baiting/stupidity/lying...? If this is intentional then Cora is scum without a doubt. Like I said earlier somewhere though would a town Cora have gotten angrier? Shit things up even harder? Is he picking these fights on purpose and/or remaining...calmer and more measured than i would expect because of recent attempts to tone down his behaviour? I'm not super confident on either side of the lynch, which is sad, but the lynch gives us more to work on than anything else. Supposing he is town, giving Cora time is probably not going to benefit us at all. In fact, the sooner we kill him probably the better at least for town atmosphere regardless of what alignment he is. on the other hand, giving yamato a day will almost certainly help us read his alignment better, and yamato isn't actively destructive to town. He at worst is about as bad as a scummy lurker-being hard to lynch through subpar activity as opposed to being destructive. And this is all, granted, from what I understand and have witnessed of his play as scum. As town I know he has the potential to be contributory, so assuming he can get over his demoralization he can definitely be an asset. If at the end of night and 12-24 hours into tomorrow he still continues his current trend we can just kill him then. 36 hours is a long time for things to happen, so many things can change by then. Alright well this convinces me of Cora over yamato because you are certainly correct in giving yamato time is a wiser choice than giving Cora time, but what of kush? What does giving him time accomplish? (And again, to a lesser extent gumshoe at some point)
kush is like this literally every game regardless of his alignment.
No one has bothered to provide opinions on kush aside from flaming him, whereas almost everyone in the game has commented on Cora at some point. Regardless of how he flips this gives us something to work with. In addition, I would say that Corazon has been around more often and actually been more detrimental than kush has.
As for gumshoe at this point I don't even know if the mods will let him live. You can't read a player when they haven't bothered to play the game at all. Lynching them is worse than a coin flip.
On January 09 2014 06:31 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 06:27 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 06:22 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:56 wherebugsgo wrote:like seriously, I'm tempted to try to get you lynched for saying that, because that's literally what scum want to do. for clarity I'm talking about this post: On January 09 2014 05:52 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:50 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 05:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 09 2014 05:24 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
In efforts to straighten this thread out from the shitflinging contest that it is: here are reads.
Corazon - Senseless, yelling at people, calling people scum. It's difficult to formulate a decent read on him without factoring in the douchebaggery involved. Do scum act like this often? Or is this something specifically attributed to Corazon? If anyone has a scum corazon game on hand I'd like to see it.
@Cora
I want you to calm down. Give us your top scumreads with 2-3 reasons why for each. Honestly the sense is just strew apart in the thread, maybe it's there if I can get a consolidated post. You've been a bitch to me already for no reason, and I have no problem lynching you. If you're town I want the best reads you can give me.
Yamato - I think he's town. Based on extractor I don't see a reason he cant be town here, and lynching him day 1 is probably a mistake.
JAT - leaning scum. When I was arguing with rayn about the semantic thing (which, by the way, people have to stop saying shit thats confusing) he jumped right on with a few posts to bolster the argument which was clearly false. I also didn't like how he fought with bugs about the kush thing. It also looks like he misinterpreted my-artanis interaction at the beginning of the day which didn't make sense to me.
Rayn - Probably town, though Idk what rayn scum looks like. He tunnels on cora and bullshits at him which is fine (well.. w.e.). I am really hesitant about listening to his reasoning after extractor.
Thrawn - looks town, would bang.
Artanis - Idk where the hell he went after voting me for crap reasons. Tunneled onto me for similarly crap reasons. Would lynch if anyone is down.
So right now I'm looking at JAT/Artanis or a policy of cora/kush. - Read on yamato is not a read. "I can't see why he can't be town" - Read on JAT is so bullshit it probably comes out of CC's ears. That's the worst reasoning for a read i have seen in this game because every single thing is so wrong. - Read on me is not a read. Discrediting me for bullshit reasons, i would have lynched mafia on D2 if idiots didn't hammer yamato. - Read on thrawn is bullshit. - Read on Artanis is bullshit because CC did scummy stuff, then Artanis called him out for it. After that CC changed his reasoning to something else, but later on went back to the original reasoning for no reason. It's just so stupid and every other post the reasoning for Artanis being mafia changes from one thing to another. Suppose we lynched Cheese. He flips town. What happens then? Then his reads are still bullshit and we can start all over again. On January 09 2014 06:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 06:07 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 06:04 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 05:59 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:56 wherebugsgo wrote:like seriously, I'm tempted to try to get you lynched for saying that, because that's literally what scum want to do. for clarity I'm talking about this post: On January 09 2014 05:52 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:50 wherebugsgo wrote:
[quote]
Suppose we lynched Cheese.
He flips town.
What happens then?
Then his reads are still bullshit and we can start all over again. Someone's reads being bad or badly reasoned are not enough to call them scum and lynch them unless they have a history of being good AND if the reasoning is clearly bad despite there being good evidence for them to have good reads in the same situation. There are plenty of townies who don't often catch that many scum who often don't get lynched despite being called bad every game, because you don't just lynch someone for having bad reads. You also don't nonchalantly say that it's their fault for getting lynched after you fuck up and lynch them for the wrong reasons, cause it's the voters' faults. You asked a question and I answered it. If we lynched CC right now pretty much the only thing we would learn is his alignment. EXACTLY I'm trying to avoid frothing at the mouth at rayn's vote on CC for precisely this fucking reason. We don't achieve anything by lynching CC now, the vote is fucking wasted because we spent all day pressuring TWO OTHER PLAYERS. How do you people take so long to fucking understand this?? I've been saying we need to consolidate for over 12 hours now. The town has gone to shit because of the few players we have they are completely unwilling to listen and cooperate. Instead we have a shitfest like every other minute. Killing Corazon will probably rid ourselves of a significant amount of the shitposting, given that he's managed to piss off myself, rayn, WoS, and basically everyone else he's talked to. Killing kush would probably accomplish a similar thing but he's actually easier to ignore and harder to read. I don't understand you. You posted the question - I answered exactly the way you think yourself and I am scummy for it. uh what I didn't call you scummy. Your self fixation is starting to bother me a bit. What the hell man... I should have been clearer. I'd ordinarily call you scummy, but I was merely tempted because I think you just legitimately don't know better. What exactly don't I know better? You aren't making any sense.
Okay, let me be blunt.
Your play so far has led me to label you "dumb town".
There are lots of things you've said that have led me to think you are town, but it's more because very few scum would be so careless as to say things so blatantly...well, scummy.
If I had determined that you had that attitude based on an inference, e.g. reaction to a flip or something like that, rather than something you just came out and said, I'd be more likely to label you scum than bad.
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On January 09 2014 06:44 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 06:37 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 06:28 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 09 2014 06:26 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 06:19 WaveofShadow wrote:
I don't feel nearly as good about lynching Cora for policy reasons than i do kush, so at the very least I'd like to try and come to terms with it if I'll be switching my vote or even better, actually determine if he is scum. (yeah I get that the shitposting would be toned down a little but again, knowing he's actually attempting to contribute and post, despite enraging so many of us makes it harder for me. By comparison kush manages to enrage me by barely posting/what little posting he does.)
What it comes down to for me is mainly his behaviour here. The weird tunneling and nitpicking of one particular thing and not letting it go, the almost intentional baiting/stupidity/lying...? If this is intentional then Cora is scum without a doubt. Like I said earlier somewhere though would a town Cora have gotten angrier? Shit things up even harder? Is he picking these fights on purpose and/or remaining...calmer and more measured than i would expect because of recent attempts to tone down his behaviour? I'm not super confident on either side of the lynch, which is sad, but the lynch gives us more to work on than anything else. Supposing he is town, giving Cora time is probably not going to benefit us at all. In fact, the sooner we kill him probably the better at least for town atmosphere regardless of what alignment he is. on the other hand, giving yamato a day will almost certainly help us read his alignment better, and yamato isn't actively destructive to town. He at worst is about as bad as a scummy lurker-being hard to lynch through subpar activity as opposed to being destructive. And this is all, granted, from what I understand and have witnessed of his play as scum. As town I know he has the potential to be contributory, so assuming he can get over his demoralization he can definitely be an asset. If at the end of night and 12-24 hours into tomorrow he still continues his current trend we can just kill him then. 36 hours is a long time for things to happen, so many things can change by then. Alright well this convinces me of Cora over yamato because you are certainly correct in giving yamato time is a wiser choice than giving Cora time, but what of kush? What does giving him time accomplish? (And again, to a lesser extent gumshoe at some point) kush is like this literally every game regardless of his alignment. No one has bothered to provide opinions on kush aside from flaming him, whereas almost everyone in the game has commented on Cora at some point. Regardless of how he flips this gives us something to work with. In addition, I would say that Corazon has been around more often and actually been more detrimental than kush has. As for gumshoe at this point I don't even know if the mods will let him live. You can't read a player when they haven't bothered to play the game at all. Lynching them is worse than a coin flip. On January 09 2014 06:31 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 06:27 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 06:22 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:56 wherebugsgo wrote:like seriously, I'm tempted to try to get you lynched for saying that, because that's literally what scum want to do. for clarity I'm talking about this post: On January 09 2014 05:52 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:50 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 05:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 09 2014 05:24 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
In efforts to straighten this thread out from the shitflinging contest that it is: here are reads.
Corazon - Senseless, yelling at people, calling people scum. It's difficult to formulate a decent read on him without factoring in the douchebaggery involved. Do scum act like this often? Or is this something specifically attributed to Corazon? If anyone has a scum corazon game on hand I'd like to see it.
@Cora
I want you to calm down. Give us your top scumreads with 2-3 reasons why for each. Honestly the sense is just strew apart in the thread, maybe it's there if I can get a consolidated post. You've been a bitch to me already for no reason, and I have no problem lynching you. If you're town I want the best reads you can give me.
Yamato - I think he's town. Based on extractor I don't see a reason he cant be town here, and lynching him day 1 is probably a mistake.
JAT - leaning scum. When I was arguing with rayn about the semantic thing (which, by the way, people have to stop saying shit thats confusing) he jumped right on with a few posts to bolster the argument which was clearly false. I also didn't like how he fought with bugs about the kush thing. It also looks like he misinterpreted my-artanis interaction at the beginning of the day which didn't make sense to me.
Rayn - Probably town, though Idk what rayn scum looks like. He tunnels on cora and bullshits at him which is fine (well.. w.e.). I am really hesitant about listening to his reasoning after extractor.
Thrawn - looks town, would bang.
Artanis - Idk where the hell he went after voting me for crap reasons. Tunneled onto me for similarly crap reasons. Would lynch if anyone is down.
So right now I'm looking at JAT/Artanis or a policy of cora/kush. - Read on yamato is not a read. "I can't see why he can't be town" - Read on JAT is so bullshit it probably comes out of CC's ears. That's the worst reasoning for a read i have seen in this game because every single thing is so wrong. - Read on me is not a read. Discrediting me for bullshit reasons, i would have lynched mafia on D2 if idiots didn't hammer yamato. - Read on thrawn is bullshit. - Read on Artanis is bullshit because CC did scummy stuff, then Artanis called him out for it. After that CC changed his reasoning to something else, but later on went back to the original reasoning for no reason. It's just so stupid and every other post the reasoning for Artanis being mafia changes from one thing to another. Suppose we lynched Cheese. He flips town. What happens then? Then his reads are still bullshit and we can start all over again. On January 09 2014 06:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 06:07 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 06:04 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 09 2014 05:59 justanothertownie wrote:On January 09 2014 05:56 wherebugsgo wrote:
like seriously, I'm tempted to try to get you lynched for saying that, because that's literally what scum want to do.
for clarity I'm talking about this post:
[quote]
Someone's reads being bad or badly reasoned are not enough to call them scum and lynch them unless they have a history of being good AND if the reasoning is clearly bad despite there being good evidence for them to have good reads in the same situation.
There are plenty of townies who don't often catch that many scum who often don't get lynched despite being called bad every game, because you don't just lynch someone for having bad reads. You also don't nonchalantly say that it's their fault for getting lynched after you fuck up and lynch them for the wrong reasons, cause it's the voters' faults. You asked a question and I answered it. If we lynched CC right now pretty much the only thing we would learn is his alignment. EXACTLY I'm trying to avoid frothing at the mouth at rayn's vote on CC for precisely this fucking reason. We don't achieve anything by lynching CC now, the vote is fucking wasted because we spent all day pressuring TWO OTHER PLAYERS. How do you people take so long to fucking understand this?? I've been saying we need to consolidate for over 12 hours now. The town has gone to shit because of the few players we have they are completely unwilling to listen and cooperate. Instead we have a shitfest like every other minute. Killing Corazon will probably rid ourselves of a significant amount of the shitposting, given that he's managed to piss off myself, rayn, WoS, and basically everyone else he's talked to. Killing kush would probably accomplish a similar thing but he's actually easier to ignore and harder to read. I don't understand you. You posted the question - I answered exactly the way you think yourself and I am scummy for it. uh what I didn't call you scummy. Your self fixation is starting to bother me a bit. What the hell man... I should have been clearer. I'd ordinarily call you scummy, but I was merely tempted because I think you just legitimately don't know better. What exactly don't I know better? You aren't making any sense. Okay, let me be blunt. Your play so far has led me to label you "dumb town". There are lots of things you've said that have led me to think you are town, but it's more because very few scum would be so careless as to say things so blatantly...well, scummy. If I had determined that you had that attitude based on an inference, e.g. reaction to a flip or something like that, rather than something you just came out and said, I'd be more likely to label you scum than bad. But see that's my point regarding kush. People haven't provided opinions on him BECAUSE he is like this every game----you can't provide a read on him or an opinion because there isn't anything you can use. Hence the decision to policy lynch him. While I agree that Cora has likely been more detrimental to the game at this current point in time, will that remain so for the rest of the game? For I think the third time I'll ask now---who would you rather have at LYLO? Kush or Cora?
Neither of them, obviously.
There is no right answer to that question because they're both equally worthless. Corazon is just actively destructive, so he's better to kill now. So I suppose that means if I had to make a choice it'd have to be kush.
However if the game had gone differently and we had chosen to leave Corazon alone and pressured Kush instead it's very likely IMO that kush would have been the one to dump on the thread instead of Cora. Who knows, really.
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That last bit by gumshoe and artanis, both were scummy as shit.
I would have wholly expected gumshoe to straight up just get modkilled if he were town and just afk. In the worst case I think maybe he might come back and frantically try to figure out what happened while he was gone.
The last thing I'd expect a townie to do is dump a massive post right before deadline that summarizes all his reads for no good reason and then royally waste his vote.
BTW mods it would be nice it my vote was counted in the final votecount. Just for book keeping's sake on my part.
Basically anyone who held their vote all day or was hesitant to vote/comment on Corazon or just provide reads or votes in general is really scummy. Artanis and gumshoe both did next to nothing aside from their initial post sprees and their convenient reentry to the thread immediately prior to lynch.
Yamato is also a concern but I think that he should be able to clear himself if he actually is town. I think the same of Artanis as well, but I'll have to take a closer look later.
I'll be back in an hour two to reread and hopefully we can get a good idea of who to kill tomorrow. It's imperative that we have activity tonight since myself or iamp are probably dead after tonight.
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On January 09 2014 09:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
WBG, tell me how me coming back straight before deadline when Cora scumclaimed makes any sense as scum. He literally claimed scum by the time I voted him. How would I gain anything out of it as scum myself?
It's pretty irrelevant, lots of scum vote switch when they know a partner is guaranteed to be dead just so their vote ends up in the "right" place in the end.
I can't count the number of times I've had to tell shitty teammates to stop worrying about where their vote ends up because near lynch time they start squealing about how they're gonna look bad if their vote stays where it is.
The simple fact is that I don't think there are more than maybe 3-4 scum players on this forum who really would understand that and not worry about it consistently.
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On January 09 2014 09:28 yamato77 wrote:
Also, unless you think our (theoretical) plan as scum was to hard bus each other and be the only real wagons D1, I consider myself confirmed town from this point forward. Not that I am going to stop solving the game, but that I expect people to stop accusing me and actually converse with me about my reads until such time as I am shot by mafia.
stfu you're confirmed nothing at this point.
If the vote was between two scum yesterday the incentive to bus would have been incredibly strong. So no, your alignment is completely divorced from corazon and the fact that you would dare try to use his flip in such a manner without actually having done anything is incredibly scummy.
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also you didn't push him until it was amply clear that your case on iamperfection wasn't going to fly.
Don't try to pretend that us pressuring you into providing a corazon vote was actually you pushing corazon independently. I'm sure had anyone been dumb enough to agree with you on iamperfection you would never have bothered switching to Cora.
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no, you're just wrong. I honestly can't tell if you truly believe that, because I for a fact know how bad scum players are so readily willing to bus their teammates at the hint of weakness. This happens even early in games, simply because certain players are too bad to understand how omniscience taints their ability to understand the strength of a townie's read.
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Reading gumshoe's filter and half of it makes no sense.
I'd put him now at a decent chance to be scum but some things he has said are just almost too dumb to be scum. Others seem like white lies, while his tone seems so non confrontational and the content of his posts is just nebulous and surface-descriptive.
At the beginning he, in his own words, begged to be seen on his own merits as a player, though throughout the day he basically did nothing worth keeping him alive for.
All of his interactions with Cora are fucking weird too.
On January 07 2014 12:00 gumshoe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 11:35 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On January 07 2014 11:34 raynpelikoneet wrote:
But you're not mafia. This man, such faith, how does one do it? Probs roles scum every game  sides, I'm pretty sure he thinks I'm scum and is just trying to lul me to sleep in order to coordinate a midnight lynch. ( I know this isn't majority lynch, but I'm sure rayn will find a way XD) That said, It is late here and I plan to finally catch spl tomorrow so gl all, I will leave my reads though case I die inexplicably. Leaning scummy on cheesecake, don't like the way he asked me about Artanis in voice, it was done in a really neutral way but left the door open for me to use it as an opportunity to attack Artanis. Basically I read it more as him trying to start a fight than him feeling out our alignments. He's very active but hasn't really contributed much, and is very eager to buddy up with talkative townies ( me and especially Artanis who cheesecake despreatly tried to repair relations with after he "misread" one of artanis's posts.) his filter includes lurker discussion in a game so far without actual lurkers, extreme buddying, and goofiness long after the time of goofballs has ended and very little honest scum hunting. Iamp leaning scummy cause of the aggressive way he called out Yamato, Rayn wos Yamato neutral cause not enough to go on. Cora scummy cause I don't like his face. Artanis townie cause he is actually trying to shape up town and he makes sense. Also he thinks I'm scum, which makes me more confident he's town.
Question for readers:
What incentive does a town player, no matter how shitty, have for making a read that is literally "I think this guy is scummy"
Just completely out of the blue, no context, no previous mention, no specific (or even vague) reasoning.
I see townies dump read posts pretty often but at the very least they have some semblance of reasoning. Not here, though. Whatever reasoning he does give is garbage anyway.
But again, I can't tell whether this is just a bad townie or a bad scum. It's definitely bad something. It just makes no sense from a town perspective to me.
On January 07 2014 12:22 gumshoe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 12:15 Corazon wrote:
Gumshoe calling me scum without any reasoning behind it. Now that is nonsensical T.T I don't really think your scum, I just don't like you ATM, and I don't think conversation between us would yield much seeing as we're both resolved to be hostile to one another ( or at least you are yah big jerk ) oh and if you did turn out to be scum I'd be pleasantly surprised ( :
Even more perplexing.
Note that Cora didn't respond to gumshoe calling him scum the same way he responded to others calling him scum. With others he was openly hostile. Here, it's basically just a smily of confusion.
The post before his reentrance (the read dump and WoS vote) in which he basically says he doesn't want to comment on Corazon because he doesn't know how (based on his aggression and other things) was also a little strange to me.
Now, for the last post, which I think is actually the most interesting of all:
On January 09 2014 09:10 gumshoe wrote:
XD, I dont know what it is, but every game I actually play as town, at one point or another I get irrationally mad at a player, who always turns out to be scum 0_0. Maybe I should listen to that feeling more.
A great player once told me that one of the first things you should do following a flip is examine everyone's reactions. This right here is very interesting, because it suggests that gumshoe was mad at coral on.
This is the first time I'm hearing of it-it wasn't apparent from the thread at all based on what gumshoe said about corazon or how he interacted with him that he was ever "irrationally mad" at him. So, unless this was completely private, this is probably strong evidence that gumshoe is just faking.
Thoughts?
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My phone is being uncooperative atm.
I need to read up on thrawn again. Each time I look at him I find it difficult to concentrate because the nature of his play makes him quite hard to read. I find myself needing to go back between his filter and the thread for a lot more posts than I would normally.
I'll be back a while later, hopefully I get some time to reread everything at least once before night is over as well.
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Before I leave though I want to state that preliminarily I had thrawn as pretty likely to be town given that he actually took the time to look at a past game at Corazon's play, and quoted it, AND it actually made sense in light of his argument, AND at the time I saw myself potentially agreeing with what he said about how it made Corazon look townier.
It was one of those "oh shit maybe we're making a mistake" moments for me, and I could totally understand any townie at that point using any information at his disposal to quell any internal doubts.
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On January 09 2014 15:18 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Initial impressins post flip are that thrawn and bugs are scum (if both scum have indeed posted). I need to do some research.
On January 09 2014 15:23 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I mean you could consider yamato scum on something like D6 is he is alive and has done nothing but right after lynch? Call the ONLY counter-wagon scum? Nah.. no way.
IF ANYONE WANTS PROOF AS TO WHY THIS MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS:
Go look at LIX (the one with FiveTouch as mayor) and Smurf Mini (in which GMarshal had us all playing under smurf names he created)
In both games we had TWO scum on day 1. We killed one of them and then the other one lived for a really long time. In LIX it was okay because we just kept killing scum, in Smurf it was fucking awful because people attacked those who were on the counter wagon (like me) under the assumption that the counter wagon had to be town, even though the guy did nothing.
You know what's funny? Last time the counter wagon was Yamato too.
We just didn't know it cause it was a smurf game. He got replaced for inactivity and we never held him to any sort of standard because I ended up getting lynched for attacking him. Then we lost because no one knew where the scum were.
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I am not suggesting though, that yamato has to be scum. He very well could be based on how much of a useless asshole he continues to be. However, considering him town is stupid.
In fact I would say it is so stupid that it's even worse than someone coming up with an elaborate conspiracy that Yamato had to have bussed, because at the very least in the second case the player still leaves open the possibility of killing Yamato. In the first case it is nearly impossible to convince a player who has taken on the mentality that counter wagons have to be of opposite alignment to lynch someone like that later in the game when it is completely obvious that you have no choice left.
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EPT
