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On January 08 2014 10:17 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 10:09 iamperfection wrote:
well im gonna say bugs is town considering he basically for the last few pages has told everyone to look at me and seems to care way to much if he were scum. Plus he did that thing were he says im picking up my ball and going home and decides to post anyways. That's a townie thing to do in my view as scum are more apt to try to have an excuse to leave the thread.
that said chill out bugs lets catch scum
but ill even do the work for you because yamato is scum. If you look at his filter there is nothing of value come join me on the wagon of justice
## Vote Yamato Holy shitballs. I'd be inclined to thing WBG is scum for shitting the HELL out of this thread, but I don't know his play all that well honestly. Is he capable of 'caring' this much as town? Am I giving the past few pages as possible scumplay too much credence? I certainly do like a great deal of what has been said though, especially the lurker business because, you know, I say that shit all the FUCKING time. Anywho, I believe I promised a look into...JAT, was it? I can actually have a look into multiple people now and will be present for the rest of the evening so I'll do a whole bunch. Maybe I can get WBG to call me dumb too. 
I shit on threads regardless of alignment.
You should also consider giving your opinion of Yamato.
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On January 08 2014 10:20 Corazon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 10:14 iamperfection wrote:
and corzan can you explain how bugs is scum when he decided to go on a huge rant with everyone look at me attitude. Sure seems like to me a non scum thing to do. It's easy for scum to fake that. His logic was not even good. He started calling me dumb because I asked him to actually contribute when he said he wouldn't until I did. He blatantly admitted to not have read the thread and he decided to attack kush, who at the time had 0 posts, and called him stupid until he did some random 180 and called kush town (while keeping his vote on him). He then OMGUSs me when I call him out for it. To me, it looks faked and it looks like he just wants to survive.
I'm sorry, what?
Most of this shit is just blatantly wrong or misleading.
On January 08 2014 10:21 WaveofShadow wrote:
Bring it, suckas.
JAT:
Until prodded endlessly by WBG, he contributed nothing to the thread besides the nitpicking of other people's posts and reads and providing none of his own. Not a huge fan of his posting thus far---a little too 'fence-sitty' for my liking but whateva.
Iamp can I have a looky at you next?
Yamato, please. I want to hear your thoughts on him.
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On January 08 2014 10:23 iamperfection wrote:
why are you asking my permission to do things wos? you seem to want to be as wishy washy as possible
what do you think of this?
On January 08 2014 10:21 Corazon wrote:
Wait can someone explain to me why that post was scummy? I'm not too familiar on WoS' town play so I'm not sure what you two see in his post.
On January 08 2014 10:23 Corazon wrote:
Wow WoS. That post looks really bad.
"I'm so townie Cora, obviously"
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On January 08 2014 10:25 Corazon wrote:
WBG I'm done interacting with you. Stop trying to hide the facts and lie about me. When you asked for contribution from me, I had already said some things about Yamato and had a few other posts. You either lied about me not contributing or you didn't read the thread. Which one is it?
Your posts weren't contributions.
Making one liners that are wrong or simple summaries are not contributions.
When I asked you to elucidate any of your thoughts you refused to do so. Based on things you have said you have repeatedly proven that you are incapable of reading or comprehending the things you read, which means that even if you were town I'd have no use for your opinions. That's why I refused to give you anything. If iamp were in the thread at that point I might have disclosed some of what I was thinking, given that he actually seems to have valid opinions of his own (and if he's scum, then we are fucked)
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On January 08 2014 10:26 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 10:21 WaveofShadow wrote:
Bring it, suckas.
JAT:
Until prodded endlessly by WBG, he contributed nothing to the thread besides the nitpicking of other people's posts and reads and providing none of his own. Not a huge fan of his posting thus far---a little too 'fence-sitty' for my liking but whateva.
Iamp can I have a looky at you next? I started the conversation with bugs you know...
I was wondering when someone would point this out :p
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On January 08 2014 10:30 WaveofShadow wrote:
Conversation yes, good contribution imo no. You offered exactly zero reads or opinion of your own aside from those that served to pick on others' posts and logic. Very VERY easy to do as scum. I dunno 'bout you yet.
While this is true, there are other, more important things that I think you might be missing.
Do you actually think JAT is scum or would you say that his lack of reads is disconcerting?
And if you had to name an alternative to yamato who would it be?
It's in your best interest to be forthcoming with your reads, since your last few posts haven't looked so good if you are town.
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On January 08 2014 10:42 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 10:37 iamperfection wrote:On January 08 2014 10:28 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 08 2014 10:23 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 08 2014 10:20 Corazon wrote:On January 08 2014 10:14 iamperfection wrote:
and corzan can you explain how bugs is scum when he decided to go on a huge rant with everyone look at me attitude. Sure seems like to me a non scum thing to do. It's easy for scum to fake that. His logic was not even good. He started calling me dumb because I asked him to actually contribute when he said he wouldn't until I did. He blatantly admitted to not have read the thread and he decided to attack kush, who at the time had 0 posts, and called him stupid until he did some random 180 and called kush town (while keeping his vote on him). He then OMGUSs me when I call him out for it. To me, it looks faked and it looks like he just wants to survive. I'm sorry, what? Most of this shit is just blatantly wrong or misleading. On January 08 2014 10:21 WaveofShadow wrote:
Bring it, suckas.
JAT:
Until prodded endlessly by WBG, he contributed nothing to the thread besides the nitpicking of other people's posts and reads and providing none of his own. Not a huge fan of his posting thus far---a little too 'fence-sitty' for my liking but whateva.
Iamp can I have a looky at you next? Yamato, please. I want to hear your thoughts on him. I'd lynch him atm actually. ##Vote: yamatoI'm used to WAY more effort from him on any given D1 at this point. Too much one-liner, too much shutting down of discussion and negativity---and while he's capable of this as town, he's also capable of better play and I don't mind punishing him. Seriously threatening him is also often a good way to get something good out of him one way or another; see LXIII or LXI for examples. Yamato LOVES being tha D1 lynch. why did you wait so long to do this considering you said the same thing yesterday but didn't bother to vote? 'Cause he still hasn't done dicks since, and like I said yesterday, if you were reading, one vote two hours into D1 does not a threat make. I fully support anyone who would like to join me on this wagon, btw. Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 10:38 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 08 2014 10:30 WaveofShadow wrote:
Conversation yes, good contribution imo no. You offered exactly zero reads or opinion of your own aside from those that served to pick on others' posts and logic. Very VERY easy to do as scum. I dunno 'bout you yet. While this is true, there are other, more important things that I think you might be missing. Do you actually think JAT is scum or would you say that his lack of reads is disconcerting? And if you had to name an alternative to yamato who would it be? It's in your best interest to be forthcoming with your reads, since your last few posts haven't looked so good if you are town. Uh....don't threaten me. I don't respond to threats. When exactly in this game have I been anything BUT forthcoming? Did I try to hold back my reads at any point? Because I sure as hell can't think of ANYONE who would do that, right? I've already said I'm not sure about JAT. I don't like his neutrality, I'd maybe lean slightly scum right now but I haven't had the chance to do a dive of a whole bunch of other people. Yall are too busy jumping down my throat right as I return to the thread so I haven't had time for much else.
Okay, fair enough.
I'm just saying that because I think the votes today are probably going to be split between you and yamato unless something changes pretty drastically. If you are town then it's obviously in your best interest to stay active and provide your reads. You've been doing that so far, I have no complaints on that front. It's just that a couple of your posts over the past page have been somewhat scummy. In overall context they're definitely not the worst, though. I'd have to agree that Yamato is a better choice than you for now, particularly since both kush and iamp sort of reflex voted you.
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On January 08 2014 10:46 iamperfection wrote:
ill be back in an hour or so.
when you're back I'd love to hear a yamato/WoS comparison.
I prefer yamato right now over WoS. Do you think a scum WoS would be this active in clarifying his thoughts on different players? What experience do you have with WoS?
I think I played with WoS once but my last game was like 8-9 months ago. It'd be nice if people can point me to instances of his meta where he does or does not do what he is doing now. I'm going to look into it myself but obviously it's easier with other people who already have that experience at hand.
Lastly, I'd also like to hear what you think of Corazon. My initial impression was simply that he's bad. I seem to recall reading his posts in another game when I was lurking the forum and I think I got a similar impression then. However he keeps saying things that are blatantly untrue. Have you seen him play scum before? What does his town play look like?
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On January 08 2014 10:51 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 10:48 justanothertownie wrote:On January 08 2014 10:44 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 08 2014 10:41 justanothertownie wrote:On January 08 2014 10:36 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 08 2014 10:33 justanothertownie wrote:On January 08 2014 10:30 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 08 2014 10:25 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 08 2014 10:23 iamperfection wrote:
why are you asking my permission to do things wos? you seem to want to be as wishy washy as possible what do you think of this? On January 08 2014 10:21 Corazon wrote:
Wait can someone explain to me why that post was scummy? I'm not too familiar on WoS' town play so I'm not sure what you two see in his post. On January 08 2014 10:23 Corazon wrote:
Wow WoS. That post looks really bad.
"I'm so townie Cora, obviously" LOL I DID notice that. Cora what turned the lightbulb on? On January 08 2014 10:26 justanothertownie wrote:On January 08 2014 10:21 WaveofShadow wrote:
Bring it, suckas.
JAT:
Until prodded endlessly by WBG, he contributed nothing to the thread besides the nitpicking of other people's posts and reads and providing none of his own. Not a huge fan of his posting thus far---a little too 'fence-sitty' for my liking but whateva.
Iamp can I have a looky at you next? I started the conversation with bugs you know... Conversation yes, good contribution imo no. You offered exactly zero reads or opinion of your own aside from those that served to pick on others' posts and logic. Very VERY easy to do as scum. I dunno 'bout you yet. Well, if I am not mistaken I was prodding bugs for reads at least as hard as the other way round. How come you paint the whole thing this one sided? I didn't; I was giving my read of you. I find your posting up until the reads you gave that WBG wrenched out of you forcefully neutral and unopinionated in a meaningful way. If you don't see the difference between yours and WBG's posting during that conversation than I don't believe there is more I can say on the matter. How convenient. The problem is you are trying to throw suspicion on me by saying bugs had to forcefully wrench reads out of me when it was exactly the same the other way round. He did not give any reads before that. How does that make any sense? Nope. Wrong. The way I see it, WBG reveals a great deal about himself in the way he defends his policy lynch and most importantly puts himself out there. Everything you had posted up until that point was simply an attack or criticism of somebody else. You know, I'll give you that you're right I suppose in that it is not a read in the proper sense but at least it allows the entire thread to attempt a read of him. His posts are not guarded, careful. Yours reek of it. Holy mother of shitlogic. WBG reveals a great deal of himself by talking about POLICY the whole time? Surely you can enlighten me why scum would not be able to comfortably talk about policy how much they want? Also he is clearly putting himself out there with this while I certainly don't do so by getting in a fight with him. Your posts reek of Sherlock... He doesn't just [i]talk[/] about policy. He is throwing it left and right. As I said, it is entirely possible he is doing it as scum and the rage is faked, but if he's scum, to me it's for a different reason than why you are. Sorry JAT, call it shitlogic if you want but that's my stance on the matter. I see differences in your posting styles and your methods of attack even if the content may run similar at points.
everyone has this problem with me, because I am "good" at scum.
If you read any of my past games (and you can take my word on it if you want to, though if you really wanted to be thorough you can actually go back and check) I rarely, if ever, take any suspicion on day 1 as scum. It's often to the point where not even a single person will vote me on day 1.
I am not afraid of pressure or anything like that as scum but I purposely make my scum play "townish" and I will throw in heaps of aggression or "unexpected" scum play just to throw people off, but I am very self conscious about how much pressure I am under and generally on day 1 I am under none as scum-I don't let it get there because I spend the time coordinating my team instead of posting lots.
+ Show Spoiler [wherebugsgo] +
If you note I've played mafia 6 times. In minis, 3 times; in all of those minis I survived to at least lylo. I won two of them by living to endgame. In the third, I lived to lylo, finally got lynched and then our team lost because I was basically the only one playing (it was a hydra mini, 7 town hydras 2 mafia hydras, so 18 players total. Endgame was controversial because of the way the last lynch went.)
In the other three games, one was a game in which everyone was a vig. I got shot by a spam vigi in Responsibility on N2. In Arkham a 3P who had the ability to make himself look like anything made himself look like mafia. He then chose to shoot me N2 because I tried to get him lynched on D2, but it was highly unlikely that I ever would have been lynched that game based on how it was progressing. In Storm Mafia, similarly to Couples Therapy I was fairly safe until my teammate died d4, and then our entire team got lynched 4 days in a row.
I also played in a couple others that are not on this list, Space Station and (I think?) The Game. I was definitely mafia in SS mafia and I was never suspected d1 or ever, really. I was shot by a vig in the town circle after the rest of the players in the game had basically been confirmed to be town and my team had already been decimated.
Fact of the matter is that I take a shit ton more lynch attention as town/3p than scum. I really didn't get lynched as town all that often until my more recent games, though.
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On January 08 2014 10:54 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 10:49 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 08 2014 10:42 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 08 2014 10:37 iamperfection wrote:On January 08 2014 10:28 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 08 2014 10:23 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 08 2014 10:20 Corazon wrote:On January 08 2014 10:14 iamperfection wrote:
and corzan can you explain how bugs is scum when he decided to go on a huge rant with everyone look at me attitude. Sure seems like to me a non scum thing to do. It's easy for scum to fake that. His logic was not even good. He started calling me dumb because I asked him to actually contribute when he said he wouldn't until I did. He blatantly admitted to not have read the thread and he decided to attack kush, who at the time had 0 posts, and called him stupid until he did some random 180 and called kush town (while keeping his vote on him). He then OMGUSs me when I call him out for it. To me, it looks faked and it looks like he just wants to survive. I'm sorry, what? Most of this shit is just blatantly wrong or misleading. On January 08 2014 10:21 WaveofShadow wrote:
Bring it, suckas.
JAT:
Until prodded endlessly by WBG, he contributed nothing to the thread besides the nitpicking of other people's posts and reads and providing none of his own. Not a huge fan of his posting thus far---a little too 'fence-sitty' for my liking but whateva.
Iamp can I have a looky at you next? Yamato, please. I want to hear your thoughts on him. I'd lynch him atm actually. ##Vote: yamatoI'm used to WAY more effort from him on any given D1 at this point. Too much one-liner, too much shutting down of discussion and negativity---and while he's capable of this as town, he's also capable of better play and I don't mind punishing him. Seriously threatening him is also often a good way to get something good out of him one way or another; see LXIII or LXI for examples. Yamato LOVES being tha D1 lynch. why did you wait so long to do this considering you said the same thing yesterday but didn't bother to vote? 'Cause he still hasn't done dicks since, and like I said yesterday, if you were reading, one vote two hours into D1 does not a threat make. I fully support anyone who would like to join me on this wagon, btw. On January 08 2014 10:38 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 08 2014 10:30 WaveofShadow wrote:
Conversation yes, good contribution imo no. You offered exactly zero reads or opinion of your own aside from those that served to pick on others' posts and logic. Very VERY easy to do as scum. I dunno 'bout you yet. While this is true, there are other, more important things that I think you might be missing. Do you actually think JAT is scum or would you say that his lack of reads is disconcerting? And if you had to name an alternative to yamato who would it be? It's in your best interest to be forthcoming with your reads, since your last few posts haven't looked so good if you are town. Uh....don't threaten me. I don't respond to threats. When exactly in this game have I been anything BUT forthcoming? Did I try to hold back my reads at any point? Because I sure as hell can't think of ANYONE who would do that, right? I've already said I'm not sure about JAT. I don't like his neutrality, I'd maybe lean slightly scum right now but I haven't had the chance to do a dive of a whole bunch of other people. Yall are too busy jumping down my throat right as I return to the thread so I haven't had time for much else. Okay, fair enough. I'm just saying that because I think the votes today are probably going to be split between you and yamato unless something changes pretty drastically. If you are town then it's obviously in your best interest to stay active and provide your reads. You've been doing that so far, I have no complaints on that front. It's just that a couple of your posts over the past page have been somewhat scummy. In overall context they're definitely not the worst, though. I'd have to agree that Yamato is a better choice than you for now, particularly since both kush and iamp sort of reflex voted you. Kush is...well kush, and as he has made people aware of already in this game, he plays just to annoy and troll people, and he thinks that voting me/getting me lynched at this point will make me mad, just as he thought provoking you would be fun. Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 09:06 kushm4sta wrote:
k now this is starting to get fun for me because apparently im pissing you off.
i posted "so whos scummy" because i was curious about who was scummy obviously. in fact all of my posts had a reason.
I was telling you my thoughts about the game. If you dont think they are sufficient then say that, but there is no excuse to call me a fuck, to call me cancerous. sir that play is illegal and it would bring me great pleasure if you were modkilled. He pulls this 'asking for modkills' shit every game afaik....his play is just so ridiculous and yet there are some people who continue to praise it.... As for iamp, he's a solid player and I expect him to come around at some point. The reflex vote...meh it's still early, though that does remind me I did want to look into him.
I'm pretty aware that kush is one of the worst players on the forum. I had hoped that changed but it doesn't seem like it.
On January 08 2014 11:15 WaveofShadow wrote:Iamp: So he was actually the first person to pick out yamato for the stuff I mentioned, real early too. Then even tosses a vote on him (before switching it and making me have a sad  ). I see the targeting of yamato as one of two things: - Either a scum Iamp who sees a yamato who has decided not to contribute a great deal or of any sort of real quality and an easy mislynch potential - Town iamp Problem is now, not the fact that he voted for me per se (since many of you found faults in my return, but whatevs), but more that word that was used 'reflex' vote. For whatever reason I am often viewed as an easy mislynch target D1 as well; the only person who has EVER succeeded in pushing it through on me was a town Rayn---and that's probably over at LEAST 7-8 attempts on a D1 mislynch that I've gotten out of. I am NOT an easy mislynch so the question then becomes does scum iamp know this or not, does he care, or is he town? Honestly...I think I'd lean towards town here because I see similar thought process to mine (his technically came first), and is now caught up in what he believes to be a good potential scum target for my return posting
I seriously doubt that he is scum based on his posting tone, but I agree that it is possible. Pretty much everyone in the game is up in the air for now because of how little most people have contributed.
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On January 08 2014 11:21 WaveofShadow wrote:
Bugs what do you make of Cheese v Artanis that everybody seemed to want to comment on a while ago?
seemed to me like Artanis had a natural focus on Cheesecake (sort of how i have a natural focus on Corazon) simply because they were interacting. I could sort of follow the conversation from both perspectives; i.e. if you were to pretend to be town Artanis or town Cheesecake, do you think their actions make sense? For the most part they seem to make sense.
I haven't read into Cheesecake too heavily, but as far as Artanis goes the major thing that concerns me is his lack of presence today. It probably doesn't mean anything, but if he's still not present tomorrow I'd be worried. His posting tone so far seems fine to me. Another thing is that he sort of deflected giving an opinion on Yamato (IIRC he said something about not having played with scum yamato in a long time) and a bit more minor is that I don't really agree with his opinions, but I think they can reasonably be justified from his perspective.
Sadly it's a "let's wait and see" on him, Cheese, yamato...basically everyone in the filter list that is not a townread to me for now. I would rank yamato at the top of the scum list, though.
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On January 08 2014 11:35 iamperfection wrote:
wave didnt run away and is at least posting thoughts so lets kill yamato
## Unvote
##vote yamato
Cora, on the other hand, did (and really didn't post much of anything while he was here anyway).
I'm interested to see what happens if I switch as well. WoS will probably switch too, so yamato will have some pretty serious momentum before anyone else arrives back in the thread.
##unvote
##vote yamato
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On January 08 2014 11:44 WaveofShadow wrote:Can I ask you bugs, what changed between this post: Show nested quote +Why should I let scum have a head start into knowing whom I suspect so early, if it doesn't particularly benefit me? It only changes their behaviour when they know who is specifically under scrutiny. and now?
Oh, now I am just going to hold things back without saying anything about that fact.
If my reads need to change publicly they will, but as long as someone who is getting lynched who I am okay with getting lynched, I'm not really going to hold back from talking about them. I'll also freely discuss other alternatives.
Mostly though when there's more people around who seem to be interested in scumhunting there's less incentive to hold everything back, but that doesn't mean I am putting forth everything either.
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IIRC yamato did a similar thing the last game I played with him, Smurf Mini. Although I don't know if it was because he was scum or busy or what (I assume a combination of both) but he lurked to the point where he got replaced, then his replacement won the game for him and his team basically. (not like the replacement really did anything either, though). On day 1 we almost lynched him, but switched and lynched someone else who happened to also flip scum.
We need to consolidate on yamato as long as he continues to be worthless. He's not completely useless as town and it's incredibly scummy for him to come back only when pressured simply to post one line and leave again.
As for Cora, if he routinely plays like this (something that I will try to confirm for myself later, probably early tomorrow when I wake up) then he's probably not scum since there are ways one can justify his play from a town perspective. It's hard, but doable. However he's still a reasonable alternate choice if something drastic changes with regards to yamato.
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before I forget and go to sleep, I want to make this clear:
it's important that people look at the way players enter and reenter the thread. Yamato's reentrance is scummy as shit. iamp's is towny as hell. This is pretty easy to see, but there are instances where this is quite difficult.
Today, I didn't see any of the following four:
Cheesecake
Artanis
gumshoe
mkfuba
From towniest to scummiest, in that order. Both CC and Artanis look fine, and gumshoe is a bit iffy to me, but mkfuba in particular looks awful. I know he tends to play what I like to call "scummy town" but his posts in particular are very on-the-fency and generally quite nebulous. His only attack so far has been on Cora, and it was quite weak. After his initial small amount of activity he has since disappeared.
What's important is that we note the reentrance into the thread of all 4 of these players. If you are around when they come back I implore you to question them. I will do so myself if I'm awake at the time.
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On January 08 2014 14:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 13:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
IIRC yamato did a similar thing the last game I played with him, Smurf Mini. Although I don't know if it was because he was scum or busy or what (I assume a combination of both) but he lurked to the point where he got replaced, then his replacement won the game for him and his team basically. (not like the replacement really did anything either, though). On day 1 we almost lynched him, but switched and lynched someone else who happened to also flip scum.
We need to consolidate on yamato as long as he continues to be worthless. He's not completely useless as town and it's incredibly scummy for him to come back only when pressured simply to post one line and leave again.
As for Cora, if he routinely plays like this (something that I will try to confirm for myself later, probably early tomorrow when I wake up) then he's probably not scum since there are ways one can justify his play from a town perspective. It's hard, but doable. However he's still a reasonable alternate choice if something drastic changes with regards to yamato. I don't think this is a right way to go, because yamato already promised to contribute. When someone does that you leave them alone to make them feel comfortable (in case they are scum) and focus on other people. If yamato does not contribute, he claims scum and we can vote him at the end of the day.If we vote for yamato now, regardless of his alignment, noone else is pressured and while townies should not stop contributing even when there is a clear thread sentiment that's unfortunately not the general line of thinking. Placing votes on yamato will kill the discussion to some extent, people are more likely to contribute if they are under pressure. yamato was already under pressure and promised to contribute, that pressure has achieved what it's purpose was.
Can you give me an example of where the bolded has ever worked?
There have been tons of times where town has backed off upon the first hint of resistance. Yamato did something incredibly scummy-he reentered the thread and promptly disappeared. If he was town he'd be here arguing for his innocence and providing us with proper reads. It's much easier to read someone when they are actively present rather than afk.
As at the very least a decent player yamato knows that. I've seen him play town myself. If he's not making sense or contributing to town he needs to die, and taking our votes off and moving them just because he gave us a promise is not a good way to ensure that we'll actually have the ability to kill him when the lynch deadline comes around.
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On January 08 2014 14:07 raynpelikoneet wrote:bugs what do you think about this: Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 13:25 Corazon wrote:
Thrawn - lynching Rayn D1 is a bad idea. If Rayn is town, he is going to be a great asset to us going forward. He should be a policy lynch if he lasts longer than N2. ?
sounds like a dumb opinion to me
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it'd also be pretty scummy if not for what was just said about him
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On January 08 2014 14:16 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 14:11 WaveofShadow wrote:
I know I wasn't asked Rayn, but I agree with him actually. Well, sort of? Probably wouldn't lynch you D1 at least not in this game (though that doesn't apply to every game necessarily).
The problem with that explanation isn't that it's illogical, because it makes sense. The problem is that it's a standard, cut and paste answer that can be thrown in any time a scum player wants to justify not pushing a certain lynch. As town you can still hold that opinion that rayn shouldn't be lynched on D1 but you should be able to form a read based on D1 play. In other words, "lynching X is bad on D1 so I'm not gonna worry about him" is a scummy substitute for a read
actually it's worse than that, it's akin to setting up a lynch for later.
Let's pretend he's scum for a second and he wants to push me as a lynch today. Assuming I don't die and his team doesn't find rayn a threat, he'll just leave rayn alive, right?
So then let's say I do end up dying at some point, then all he has to do is turn around on his old read of rayn and push that on a later day. Easy pickings.
I do this all the time as scum.
The problem is that this requires an assumption about Corazon's play that I am not comfortable with making right now. I'm not so sure how to read him atm.
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On January 08 2014 14:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 14:12 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 08 2014 14:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 08 2014 13:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
IIRC yamato did a similar thing the last game I played with him, Smurf Mini. Although I don't know if it was because he was scum or busy or what (I assume a combination of both) but he lurked to the point where he got replaced, then his replacement won the game for him and his team basically. (not like the replacement really did anything either, though). On day 1 we almost lynched him, but switched and lynched someone else who happened to also flip scum.
We need to consolidate on yamato as long as he continues to be worthless. He's not completely useless as town and it's incredibly scummy for him to come back only when pressured simply to post one line and leave again.
As for Cora, if he routinely plays like this (something that I will try to confirm for myself later, probably early tomorrow when I wake up) then he's probably not scum since there are ways one can justify his play from a town perspective. It's hard, but doable. However he's still a reasonable alternate choice if something drastic changes with regards to yamato. I don't think this is a right way to go, because yamato already promised to contribute. When someone does that you leave them alone to make them feel comfortable (in case they are scum) and focus on other people. If yamato does not contribute, he claims scum and we can vote him at the end of the day.If we vote for yamato now, regardless of his alignment, noone else is pressured and while townies should not stop contributing even when there is a clear thread sentiment that's unfortunately not the general line of thinking. Placing votes on yamato will kill the discussion to some extent, people are more likely to contribute if they are under pressure. yamato was already under pressure and promised to contribute, that pressure has achieved what it's purpose was. Can you give me an example of where the bolded has ever worked? There have been tons of times where town has backed off upon the first hint of resistance. Yamato did something incredibly scummy-he reentered the thread and promptly disappeared. If he was town he'd be here arguing for his innocence and providing us with proper reads. It's much easier to read someone when they are actively present rather than afk. As at the very least a decent player yamato knows that. I've seen him play town myself. If he's not making sense or contributing to town he needs to die, and taking our votes off and moving them just because he gave us a promise is not a good way to ensure that we'll actually have the ability to kill him when the lynch deadline comes around. Okay so what do you expect the town gains if we all put our votes on yamato now? He has done what he has done, that does not change. some people find it scummy some people don't. That does not change regardless of how many votes are on him. However putting votes on him does not allow the town to pressure other people. I don't care if this has worked or not worked in other games because i can tell you for sure i will not forget arguments and people's promises and i sure as hell will confromt yamato when he comes back to the thread. Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 14:13 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 08 2014 14:07 raynpelikoneet wrote:bugs what do you think about this: On January 08 2014 13:25 Corazon wrote:
Thrawn - lynching Rayn D1 is a bad idea. If Rayn is town, he is going to be a great asset to us going forward. He should be a policy lynch if he lasts longer than N2. ? sounds like a dumb opinion to me Why this is incredibly scummy thinking is because of there are at least you and iamp in the game who are generally considered better players than me. Also yamato, Artanis, WoS, thrawn etc.. *Notice this is not supposed to be an insult to anyone and does not represent my thoughts because i obviously think i am the best mafia on the planet*. If i am generally not considered to be in top 2 of players in this game stating that i should be policy lynched on D3 if i am alive is a way of saying "i refuse to give my opinions on rayn and i will already set up an arbitary read on him regardless of what he does - a read that becomes "valid" at some point of the game".
When I say consolidate I don't expect the entire town's votes to be on yamato. If you noticed, no one has moved their votes in a while. It's notoriously hard to lynch scum, especially day 1. Yamato's been taking suspicion and a decent amount of votes because he's definitely the best choice we've got, but it's amply clear that we're dealing with a pretty average (read: lurky) town. I count current participation over the past 12-16 hours at something like 5 or 6/13. That's pretty bad. I also don't think that moving votes on yamato means that people will just disappear or stop talking. My vote is on yamato and I'm more than open to talk about other things. Same goes for several of the other players in the thread. As long as there are players willing to discuss things, discussion will be had. Anyone who simply shows up, drops a vote and disappears should definitely be scrutinized, but luckily no one has done that yet. I think that's a really good sign for now.
As for the second part, I think I agree with you after reading a few pages from his filter in Back to Basics (holy shit his filter is long in that game).
He definitely is not a completely dumb player, and I don't think he is anywhere near as thick as he is coming off in this game. The statement he made about policy lynching you doesn't really make sense. Even if he doesn't think there are other players in the game, it's surprising that he would be so against my use of policy on kush but be completely fine with advancing policy himself. That's a decently important self-contradiction, IMO.
In the Back to Basics game he was far less defensive and more coherent in his thoughts, even under pressure. He's been under no significant pressure yet; the main wagon is Yamato, not him, and until a few hours ago it was really just me and WoS sort of prodding him a bit. His reads are garbage this game and not well reasoned at all, whereas in the other game he'd say things like this:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 22 2013 04:45 Corazon wrote:
TBH both Mocsta and Rayn look worse from this: Rayn from his random vote changes and Mocsta from his confirmation bias and his really bad conspiracy theories.
I really do not like Rayn martyring...tbh the concept of martyring has been beaten to death and I think he's just using it as a ploy to gain town cred.
Rayn, pick a lynch and stay with it. I don't want to lynch you but if you continue to vote for everyone in the thread then I will have no choice but to vote for you. On November 22 2013 02:05 Corazon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 01:13 Mocsta wrote:On November 22 2013 01:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I started playing, that's the explanation. Funny that. Town when not playing and scummy when you start playing. This post is an example of confirmation bias. I can't copy/paste because I'm on my phone but the two posts above this in your filter are also examples of confirmation bias. Rayn's behavior was not acceptable but I don't think he should be lynched today for it. The problem with this town is that they fixate on someone's behavior in a very small time window and forget about everything else they have done in the game. This was a problem when people continued to attack me for my exchange with sci (Including you, Moc) for almost 30 hours without thinking about what I have done since then. It is the same with Rayn: if you took a look at the big picture and analyze Rayn's filter throughout the entire game, would you still think he is scum? I would not say that he is "100% a good lynch candidate" upon looking at his entire filter. My phone is about to die. Be back later. On November 21 2013 01:00 Corazon wrote:
When did I say that sciberia was bad town? Please find a post where I said he was bad town.
I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game.
That case was confirmation bias because you took 1-2 decent points about me (which alone are not enough to justify a vote or my lynching) and then supplemented them with saying "Corazon is doing stuff that he always does in every game, he has to be scum for it in this one".
Not especially the last post I quoted. When he feels that he has been misrepresented he doesn't whine about it (maybe one can attribute the fact to it being a GM game, but I doubt that's the true reason) but instead he specifically calls out the comment in question and challenges it. Like a townie would-directly and specifically.
In this game he's sort of just been nebulously whining about "lies" without actually giving a concrete example of it. He repeatedly mentioned my "refusal" to provide reads but that was almost wholly specific to the beginning and was out of context of the rest of my posts. Outside of that when I've seen him accuse WoS and rayn of twisting his words he's never once, as far as I could tell, brought up a real example of it.
I'll take a looksee at the database for any scum games of his tomorrow morning but based on that filter skim I'm leaning more toward scum now.
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