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On December 01 2013 20:53 Bereft wrote: I can't think of a reason why a mocsta scum team would make this move. all it does is cast doubt on the town read almost the entire thread has on him. the only pairing where this move would make sense is if it were a moc/scib scum team. which is not impossible but pretty much gg if so.
@Bereft What if Mocsta/Onegu is scumteam and Mocsta figured that he would be able to get a mislynch on Slam, but was worried for whatever reason that Chez was blue and would be able to confirm Slam as town or Mocsta as scum? Seems very plausible to me. This is why I think the Chez kill points towards Moc being scum (or possibly even you/cora) over both Slam and Onegu.
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+ Show Spoiler [Bereft] +On December 02 2013 01:52 Bereft wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 04:31 sciberbia wrote: So the most pressing question is: should we lynch Onegu today? He has 3 votes if I'm not mistaken.
The sad thing is that unless we are going to lynch Cora instead I'm not sure we have much choice. There are 4 townies alive right now, and we need 4 votes to lynch. So if Cora is town, even assuming that we could get the other 3 townies on a scum, we wouldn't end up getting them lynched. If we NL, then scum just delays and we are in a strictly worse position tomorrow.
I'm 100% sure that I'd rather lynch Onegu than Cora, but I'm really not too confident that Onegu is a better lynch than Slam. Onegu has been trying really hard recently, and I dunno it just makes me feel uneasy. On the other hand, Rean's slot was fairly scummy and Alakaslam is hard to read/understand.
@Bereft If it was all up to you, who would you rather lynch today between Slam and Onegu? in response to this, i think an onegu lynch is the right move. i agree with mocsta's post here: + Show Spoiler +On November 28 2013 15:11 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2013 14:22 Onegu wrote:Can people read my cora case please?+ Show Spoiler [Boring!!!!!] +Cora plays very anti town, doesnt have a town PoV, contridicts himself multiple times. His day one lynch target 24hours in is aqua, his case is 2 points, first aqua goes from null to scum on cora with no reason, 2 aquas case and points on rean is wrong. Aqua responds, cora says his reason on point 1 is smoke and mirrors, and accepts aquas points on rean are legit. So cora has 2 points against aqua and one is completely shattered and cora accepts it is. So cora unvotes amd moves on. WRONG!!! Cora says nothing has changed and aqua should still be lynched. Rayn and mocsta shit start, aqua still who he wants to lynch. But does he push his lynch, other than saying he still wants to lynch him, he doesnt mention him. Doesnt say hey guys really aqua is scum check out my case, or bring up new points at all. His first case is BS, its scum attemptimg to look active. - In my head I was thinking: I'm bored, how about I give Onegu some courtesy and give it a full read over. - Then I realised "WOW!" Onegu has an 11page filter, maybe... *just* MAYBE he could be town. BAH-BAM !!!!! - Then I realised something else. You see Onegu: Its impossible for Holyflare and Corazon to be on a scum team. (1) Thread sentiment wanted an Onegu lynch (2) Corazon wanted a Onegu lynch (3) Its MYLO (4) Corazon fake-claimed to get you lynched (5) Holyflare Opposed the lynch as hard as he could.. even getting Corazon to admit the fake-claim Whats the problem?The problem is that scum want to win. As quickly as possible.Give that it is MYLO, if Corazon was scum -- there was no need for Holyflare to battle him, put pressure on him.. heck even get Corazon to admit fake-claiming. Further, if Corazon was *WRONG* about Onegu... Holy woulda just sat by idly and let scum mislynch to finish the game. Onegu, we already knew you were scum before all this. Now its proven and irrefutableYou *will* be lynched tomorrow. The only decision this town has to make is between Chezinu and Alakaslam. Considering Chezinu flipflopped his vote, and Slam stayed true. Nothing has changed. Holyflare, Onegu, ChezinuIts just a matter of waiting out the required cycles. *TICK TOCK, TICK TOCK* HF writes this when we're full steam ahead on onegu (post-cora's "night check"): Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 17:19 Holyflare wrote: You people are silly. Guy claims cop AND who he is checking way before night is over and you expect him to live?? Then you say I'm scum?
If i was scum I'd know i wasn't doc and he'd be checking onegu who you all seem to think is scum too, if that were the case why would i let a cop check go off on my team instead of just killing the guy?
If he dies I look bad, so what? I've been in the shadows the entire time, watching, getting reads on who to save and then someone claims cop?? Thanks for taking away my heal from someone that needed it. I don't believe he is cop at all.
Cora being alive is a complete farce, I'm pretty sure his cop claim is very very fake because he most definitely would have checked me night 1 or 2 when I claimed over a guy who is actually posting because as he has stated, we don't know what these lurkers alignments are and we will never know, yet, he doesn't check any of our alignments at all. Just onegu who was under the most suspicion to get lynched today anyway?
Couple this with the fact that mocsta was finding ways for me to be scum with NK scenarios OUT LOUD IN THE THREAD, yeh that makes total sense. If he was town he could post this stuff after the night kills to get some solid reasoning but he posts them before the night was over yesterday. If you are town, what were you thinking? Scum is clearly going to go for the one that makes people look the most scummy.
Tl:dr
Cora's claim is fake, misleading town into a most probably towny lynch on onegu. i think this post is pretty damning because he writes it at a time when he didn't think he'd be on the chopping block. HF realized cora's cop claim was fake (probably because the "town" in (town investigator) didn't match the scum team's own fake cop claim). if onegu was town, there was absolutely no reason for him to defend onegu, because if we mislynched onegu, scum would have won. and if somehow the game lasted another day, corazon would be in hot water for his fake claim and scum would be set up to push another mislynch. so really there was zero incentive for HF to prove cora's claim was fake. i also don't put much stake in onegu's pages of written notes (sorry onegu ). to be quite frank, i think i'd be more inclined to take notes as scum than town to keep track of all my running lies!! as mocsta has said, BAM BAM!! i think we are over thinking this one. what we need to focus on is if we are sure mocsta is town and slam is the last scum.
Also, you've sold me on Onegu. Let's make it happen.
##Vote: Onegu
I agree that, given Onegu flips town, finding the last scum between Mocsta and Slam is nontrivial. I'm having a hard time deciding what to base that call on.
Slam hasn't really done anything to establish his towniness, whereas at least Mocsta has been quite active and has ostensibly been playing 'pro-town'. And Rean's play has been covered.
On the other hand, the night kills point towards Mocsta being scum than Slam. Also, ever since Cora and I voiced suspicions of him today, he went even more spazztic than usual, jumping around from person to person, calling nearly everybody scum except you. It's suspicious to me.
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Yea that reminds me
On December 02 2013 00:31 Alakaslam wrote: I was gonna Unvote but now we are consolidating...
Cora, old Mocsta looks bad enough but so do I. I dislike looking at people from the perspective that they are scum, it's like purposely getting confirmation bias.
Couple that with new Mocsta and I say, don't. I think he is on the right track, I also admit I was generally ignoring sciberia as established town (much like ignoring bereft; I mean not filter diving looking for scum). May be time to do that!
@Slam Why were you gonna unvote? Is there somebody you would seriously consider lynching today besides Onegu? In the same vein, given that onegu flips scum (got it right this time), who do you want to lynch tomorrow?
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unghhh god why is this game so hard
sorry Onegu. gg
ugh sorry everyone. I'm really disappointed in my reads this game. But with any luck I'll be able to redeem myself. If we win from here it'll go down as one of the best comebacks ever. Cora if you are town don't get yourself modkilled. It isn't over yet (maybe). Fingers crossed.
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Game's not over yet. I might as well claim now to build up hype seeing as the game is over anyway if I fail.
Welcome to Back to the Basics Mini Mafia! You are Bruno Witskoski, a Mechanic (Roleblocker), known as 'The Wrench'. You broke out of nothingness with your dedication to your craft, getting noticed by the family in your area of town for your skill with a wrench and earning you a nickname. As a bonus, you have earned yourself a reputation as a get-away driver in your past. Your father was arrested and falsely accused of money laundering from the shop where you grew up and you have no love for the cops. Because of your skill with vehicles, once per night you may disable another player's car, preventing them from getting anything done that night. When you disable someone's vehicle, they will still be able to use their contacts and any attempts to arrest or shoot them will succeed.
Wish me luck tonight.
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I'm not actually a roleblocker. But I'm pretty sure Bereft is a doctor and not a vet so hopefully if scum has a roleblocker they roleblock me and not him.
glglgl
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gg all
I was thinking about shooting Bereft on the last day to REALLY win in style but was gonna feel like an idiot if he was actually a vet.
Thanks hosts for a well-hosted game.
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Was cDgCorazon the dragon? Because you can rearrange the letters of his name to spell dragon?
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On December 03 2013 13:38 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 13:28 yamato77 wrote:On December 03 2013 13:26 Aquanim wrote: ALL? bold words Believe me, everyone could have played better than they did D1. In a majority lynch, every townie on the wagon is responsible for the mislynch. And even the ones not on the wagon, it's their responsibility to both argue down the townie wagon and propose a viable alternative lynch and make it convincing. Everyone. But the mislynch was intentional. Either way, Im curious to hear what you say after the read. I would love some pointers on how to not come across as "changing mind" all the time; whilst, trying to move the thread forward with new ideas/content.
@Mocsta You came across as "changing your mind" all the time because you were changing your mind all the time. It's fine to change your mind as you discover new evidence, but reversing your position on old evidence hinders your progress and makes you lose credibility. You need to think things through to their conclusion once, rather than remaining undecided and then changing your mind later.
One example is that you originally liked my Cora case, and later called it terrible and scummy. Here is another example:
On November 27 2013 09:57 Mocsta wrote: (E) Sciberbia posts has me at ughhh: Was just a consolidated post of 2 pages of my filter interactions but treated Bereft post exactly like me, so is town regardless of if Corazon was fake claiming.
On December 01 2013 21:04 Mocsta wrote: (1) Without a re-read, Scibs Day2 vote looks bad as he came on board before consolidation time. The firm vote on HF isn't worth any points as Bereft essentially nailed HF forcing consolidation.
So does my vote on HF mean I'm town, or is it possible I just saw the writing on the wall and knew I had to bus him? You conclude the former in the first post and the latter in the second post. The latter conclusion turns out to be correct, and there is no reason you couldn't have come to it originally given enough thought.
Also, I recommend that you not preface points with things like "Without a reread". It just removes credibility from yourself, and implies that you may very well be changing your mind later. You did a similar thing on D2 when you voted me while admitting that you hadn't reread my filter, and I was able to take that opportunity to discredit you, and gauge how suspicious others such as Bereft and Onegu were of you. Before posting something like that, actually do the reread, and then make a conclusion that you feel good about and can stand behind.
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my thoughts on the game for anyone interested
setup + Show Spoiler + I think the setup is pretty heavily scum favored, and that town winning was always a long shot. With 9 townies and 3 scum, I think town wins something like 18% of the time with random lynches. So you need some seriously powerful blues to balance it. IMO a single medic is not enough. Add to this the fact that the setup was closed and scum had a delay power (meaning town can't even no-lynch at 4-person MYLO) and you have a game that's really hard for town.
For the record, I think most mini setups on this site are scum favored. In the 11 minis I've played scum has won 9, so it's possible I suffer from outcome bias.
D1 + Show Spoiler +I thought the D1 atmosphere was pretty good for town. I didn't really enjoy getting into a fight with Cora as it drew a lot of attention to me, but it ended up OK for me, as more people were suspicious of Cora than myself. I disagree that Aquanim played poorly on D1; I thought he was actually one of the towniest players. And I thought he was pretty dangerous, as his scumhutning was more cautious and well-reasoned compared to others which were much more confirmation-biased. As such I would have really liked to have all scum jump on his bandwaggon and get him out of the game, so at first I tried to leave myself the option of voting him On November 21 2013 10:18 sciberbia wrote: Aquanim could be scum, but I think I still feel better about Cora and Rean, and now Onegu. Finishing up a post on Onegu. I want some serious looks at it because I think he may be the best lynch today. but while under pressure he just looked so townie to me that I thought it'd be claiming scum if I voted for him. Maybe I should have though. Making votes like Aquanim and Rayn D1 I could not possibly see myself doing as town, so I felt very scared to do it as scum. Felt like it'd be outing myself, but I dunno if anyone would realistically have caught me for it. Anyway, town eventually wisened up and the wagon on Aquanim disapeared for a wagon on Rean, which I thought was pretty well-founded. I thought Rean might very well be lynched, and I was ready to bus him. Rayn obviously made a huge mistake by disrupting this wagon, and town in turn made a mistake by lynching rayn over rean. I don't think rayn's play made any sense as scum, but for people that hadn't played with him before I could see why they would vote him. Also he was wrong on pretty much every read and disrupting the thread so it wasn't the worst lynch in the world even though he was town.
D2 + Show Spoiler + As Aquanim said, this was just a case of none of the scum being really lynchable. I think I played a townie-enough D1 and D2 such that anyone who hasn't played with me before (the vast majority of the thread) would not be able to scumread me. IMO it's pretty hard to actually catch any decent scum player on legitimite scumtells without prior experience with them.
HF claimed doctor so lynching him D2 didn't really make a lot of sense compared to D3. I think lynching him D3 worked out just fine for town. I don't think HF's play was particularly great, but I guess it's better than nothing. If he had actually played the game scum probably would have had a perfect victory.
Rean was replaced by Slam, who might have been the smartest lynch based on Rean's filter, but it's always a tough decision with replacements.
So in the end we lynched JJD. I thought the case on him was mediocre. I think my original vote on him looked pretty strong, but his explanations for his activity were fine and his play was similar to that previous game Bereft mentioned. If I were town I would probably have unvoted, but I'm still not sure who I would have lynched instead. Onegu looked pretty townie to me with his D2 play, which caused problems for me, as I really didn't want to call him scum for the rest of the game, but I kinda needed him to be mislynched so I couldn't call him town either.
After this lynch, I did some analysis in the scum QT and concluded town would almost surely lose. At this point I started hyper-lurking because I'm lazy, wanted to enjoy the holidays, and was pretty confident I wouldn't lose anyway. Mocsta correctly caught on eventually and identified me as scum for it, but fortunately nobody else did.
D3 + Show Spoiler + Cora's cop claim actually had me pretty worried. It's pretty hard to imagine why I wouldn't be shot as his green check. So I tried to push the explanation that scum weren't in the thread and didn't see it. In practice, finding scum by looking at who doesn't make sense to still be alive works pretty well.
HF lynch was the only correct move D3, and town made it OK enough. Didn't help town that Cora was so stubborn about his Onegu read though. I don't think Onegu even played that scummily. I thought everyone would consider him confirmed town once he posted pics of 28 pages of notes (which by the way I think is unfair to the lazy-ass scumteam). But fortunately people still thought he was scum for whatever reason.
I didn't really see how we could get around bussing HF, so I hopped on good and early to get some town cred. I was actually quite surprised people were even considering lynching Onegu, even given Cora's fake red check.
D4 + Show Spoiler + Not sure if Chezinu shot was smart or not. I think his reasons for calling me scum were completely irrelevant, but the fact of the matter is he was the only one really suspicious of me, and might have voted for me. Also I thought he was probably blue. I guess I'm a fool. Anyway Slam wanted to shoot him so why not -- I think we could probably have made any shot and still won. And at least Chezinu would definitely not be doc'd.
And we ended up lynching Onegu because the townies' reads weren't good enough to overcome such a huge disadvantage. 4-2 MYLO is pretty brutal, especially when you can't NL due to delay threat.
D5 + Show Spoiler + I worked out through various reasoning that Bereft was likely a doc, but since he was suspicious of Mocsta being scum probably wouldn't save him. In any case I thought it'd be fun to claim roleblocker and claim I knew Bereft was a doc, in order to make myself 'confirmed town' if he saved Mocsta, leading us to lynch Slam and Cora and win the game. I'm curious if this would have worked. It would have been better if I actually proved why Bereft was a doc in my deadline post but I didn't have time, and thought the game would be over anyway.
Overall, I'd say it was a scum-favored setup in which even our mediocre scum play would give us a good chance at winning. Town's scumhunting just wasn't good enough.
I also reiterate my thanks to the hosts, especially OO. Made the game very smooth and pleasant for me.
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I don't think Cora's claiming cop really hurt town's chances of winning too much. I think town was always gonna mislynch Onegu, because the rest of the townies in the game (Bereft, Mocsta, Corazon) all thought Onegu was scummy. The main problem was incorrect scumreads -- not a bad town atmosphere. It's not like town had the game solved and threw it away out of spite or ego or something.
I mean -- it still wasn't a good play. But the main problem was that he (and everyone else) was wrong about Onegu in the first place.
I guess you can argue he was being a dick. But that's not really relevant to winning the game.
@Cora My main advice to you would be 1) Don't take things so personally. Nobody disregarded your Onegu case in order to spite you or anything. People just genuinely didn't think Onegu was as likely to be scum as JJD. People's minds work in different ways and someone is always going to disagree with you. It's just something you have to get used to.
2) Be less sure in your reads. This really goes for everyone. Mafia is a hard game and you always have to consider the possibility that you are wrong.
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@Cora I agree you did a good job D2 of establishing your towniness and keeping the thread alive. I couldn't comfortably lurk because of you. Once you started afk'ing and demanding Onegu lynches I had an easier time of slinking back into the shadows after everything i posted. So I think you should try to emulate that type of play in future, but keep more of an open mind when driving discussion instead of tunneling your target.
On December 03 2013 16:20 Aquanim wrote: Blaming Onegu for your read on him isn't exactly sportsmanlike either - it's a kind of justifiable thing to say about a lurker who puts no effort in, but Onegu clearly gave some kind of a damn about this game regardless of his alignment. He played to his wincon as best he knew how, and that is all I ask of anyone.
I agree very much with this. I think Onegu clearly tried to win the game for his team. He'd look a lot better for it if his reads were right, but everyone makes bad reads. It's just part of the game.
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Yea I'd agree that rayn's entrance to the thread towards the end of D1 was the beginning of the end for town. If Rean had been lynched town would have had a good chance to win. And you're right yamato, the atmosphere going forward would have been very different.
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On December 03 2013 16:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: Actually i do not think town was playing well for the first half of D1. Yes they were right, but for wrong reasons. Based on a case that was answered and noone updated their read on Rean after that, just said "but he is scum".
Well it's hard to definitively say whether the reasons were right or not. Only Rean could really tell us for sure. But given that town moved off of a town wagon (Aquanim) onto a scum one (Rean) I'm inclined to think they were doing something right. And I felt the atmosphere was mostly constructive up until that point.
Rayn I think you can make some good reads and sometimes look pretty smart, but presuming that you are right and everyone else in town is wrong to the point where you refuse to let town have their lynch is a bit much. I think you have to be more willing to concede the possibility that you are wrong (this goes for everyone).
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@thrawn I've only seen your play recently, but I really doubt you are getting worse over time. Pretty much any skill is improved with practice. iirc people during desert mini were talking about how much better you were playing. And I thought you played pretty well this game. I don't think you should shy away from obtaining 'confirmed town status' if possible. Being able to establish yourself as town is very important to helping your team win, regardless of your alignment.
Also I agree with yamato. I think town could have used more leadership this game and you were in a good position to provide it. More than just trying to deduce who is scum, try to think about what town needs as a whole. What discussions need to take place? Who needs to post more? Who needs to be calmed down? What are the reasonable lynch options -- start some discussion on them.
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One thing I'd like some advice on is how to look townie in the first 4 hours of the game. Almost every game I play it seems someone calls me scummy based off my posts in the first 4 hours. And that was the only point at which I was under any serious pressure this game. I see a few different ways to play it:- talk about the setup
- make a hello post and then lurk
- try to FORCE scumhunting even if not much to go on (what I did this game)
- troll
- post nothing at all
Talking about the setup is somewhat productive IMO but people always call me scum for it. Making a hello post and then lurking is generally seen as scummy. When I try to force scumhunting people get mad that my cases are somewhat weak (what do you expect it's 2 hours into the game).
I really dislike trolling at the start of the game. I find it really unproductive for town.
I've never tried just saying nothing at all and making my first post later. It just doesn't sit right with me. I never actively lurk as town. Furthermore, someone has to find a way to generate discussion so who am I to make somebody else do it.
Thoughts?
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It's not that I really mind the early suspicion so much; I usually shed it over the next 12 hours or so. It's just that I'd rather avoid it all-together if I could. What I'm gathering is that it's just somewhat difficult to establish yourself as town at such an early stage, and I should be content with establishing my towniness later in the day.
The vast majority of my posting as scum is just me trying to emulate to a large degree what I would post as town, and the early D1 was no exception, but you and Cora still called me scum for it. I think later you pointed out a few legitimate scumtells on me, but I don't think my post on Cora was alignment indicative. I was planning on starting the game like that regardless of my alignment. That's probably why I got so mad when you tried to call me scum for it.
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