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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19888143
You're clearly reaching when you say Risen's post "this is normal" at the start of the game refers to RNG. He obviously doesn't like RNG in any way (as his been made clear in our interactions recently). And, even if he did somehow change his mind on RNG or contradict himself, what's in it for scum? It's not like he said he was pro-RNG, THEN I RNGed Oats, then he backtracked. That would be one thing. But that's not what happened. I don't see how that's indicative of Risen's alignment at all. He's probably just noting it's a normal mini.
In any case, Risen is either bad or scum for jumping down your throat so hard for playing the newb card. Playing the newb card is a dumb strat, and the kind of thing scum like to do, but at the same time it's the kind of stupid think that an actual newbie might do. The solution is obviously to draw you into a conversation rather than to just vote you. Risen loses points for this.
It seems to me you decided to call Risen scum THEN analyzed it, rather than the other way around.
Really when I think about it I still want to lynch Oats, beyond just the RNG. His decision to OMGUS and throw suspicion on me is pretty retarded, and though I could see a town oats (since oats is an irrational player) doing something like that out of spite and misery, this is more likely to come from scum who's just pissed to be nailed by RNG. I'm gonna stick with my vote on him for now.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:03 Risen wrote:
I don't have a problem with RNG to generate discussion, I have a problem with calling it reasonable. Policy anything isn't very reasonable. I didn't understand his post and thought he could manipulate it. I was wrong, but I still don't know how he got his number. The # sign in the top right of his post goes to the absolute what how? He says top left, but there's nothing there. Meta is a bad way to play mafia. I hate meta. People are aware of their "metas". Asking someone to give you people's metas means you aren't objectively looking at people's posting style, you're looking at them through a filter. And stifle discussion? I haven't stifled anything.
If you think RNGing to generate discussion and calling it reasonable / pushing your RNG target aren't the same thing, you're wrong wrong wrong
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:14 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:05 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 12:51 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 12:50 Holyflare wrote:On October 02 2013 12:41 Oatsmaster wrote:
##vote holyflare
Yeah I didnt roll scum!!!!!!!!
Man that first post.
On October 02 2013 12:44 Oatsmaster wrote:
Also I think BH might be scum because there is no reason to RNG in a 9 player mini and he was just trying to emulate his behavior from last game. So you think that BH is scum but don't vote him. That's a good stance. I think you and BH are scum. Laughable, like your play this game. lol so I call someone you think is scummy too scum, and I have laughable play? Proposing a RNG lynch is totally not laughable. Totally not.
you're literally claiming that I am scum because I proposed RNG in another game (AS TOWN) that had a different setup. AS TOWN.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:15 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:10 Blazinghand wrote:
Really when I think about it I still want to lynch Oats, beyond just the RNG. His decision to OMGUS and throw suspicion on me is pretty retarded, and though I could see a town oats (since oats is an irrational player) doing something like that out of spite and misery, this is more likely to come from scum who's just pissed to be nailed by RNG. I'm gonna stick with my vote on him for now. What the fuck BH? Where did I say you were bad in the post I called you scummy in? This post makes no sense. None.
What's your read on Risen?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:16 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:15 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:15 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:10 Blazinghand wrote:
Really when I think about it I still want to lynch Oats, beyond just the RNG. His decision to OMGUS and throw suspicion on me is pretty retarded, and though I could see a town oats (since oats is an irrational player) doing something like that out of spite and misery, this is more likely to come from scum who's just pissed to be nailed by RNG. I'm gonna stick with my vote on him for now. What the fuck BH? Where did I say you were bad in the post I called you scummy in? This post makes no sense. None. What's your read on Risen? null ~~ town
Why?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:20 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:17 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:16 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:15 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:15 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:10 Blazinghand wrote:
Really when I think about it I still want to lynch Oats, beyond just the RNG. His decision to OMGUS and throw suspicion on me is pretty retarded, and though I could see a town oats (since oats is an irrational player) doing something like that out of spite and misery, this is more likely to come from scum who's just pissed to be nailed by RNG. I'm gonna stick with my vote on him for now. What the fuck BH? Where did I say you were bad in the post I called you scummy in? This post makes no sense. None. What's your read on Risen? null ~~ town Why? Cause he doesnt hop on the RNG lynch wagon. And cause he called Holyflare scum.
I personally do not find either of these reasons compelling. A decision to hop or not hop on the RNG lynch wagon is dependent on personal ideas about how useful RNG is, and whether or not it paints someone as scummy depends on their reasoning and history, not the simple fact that they did or did not hop on.
Calling holyflare scum, likewise, is not in and of itself a good strat. I too don't like holyflare's play, but you think I am scum, and it is almost certainly because of my interactions with holyflare. Instead of calling him a newb card player and voting him, as risen did, without serious explanation and an attempt to help him, I actually interacted with him seriously. playing the newb card is also something newbies do. the optimal response is mine, not risen's. Mine determines holyflare's alignment.
Risen did not attempt to suss out what was up with holyflare. he laid some smackdown, but hasn't seriously followed it up. Where is he in convincing me to vote holyflare as I interact with holyflare? After all, he thinks holyflare is scum, no?
I find risen scummy for that reason.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:21 Oatsmaster wrote:
Also BH, calling someone scum for not understanding that your method is random is not good.
Not good at all.
lol what
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Listen, oats, you can seriously try to interact with me and talk about things that I've done, but from this point going forwards any time you attribute an action or statement to me you should quote the appropriate post, so that people know that you are lying about it.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:26 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:23 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:20 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:17 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:16 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:15 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:15 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:10 Blazinghand wrote:
Really when I think about it I still want to lynch Oats, beyond just the RNG. His decision to OMGUS and throw suspicion on me is pretty retarded, and though I could see a town oats (since oats is an irrational player) doing something like that out of spite and misery, this is more likely to come from scum who's just pissed to be nailed by RNG. I'm gonna stick with my vote on him for now. What the fuck BH? Where did I say you were bad in the post I called you scummy in? This post makes no sense. None. What's your read on Risen? null ~~ town Why? Cause he doesnt hop on the RNG lynch wagon. And cause he called Holyflare scum. I personally do not find either of these reasons compelling. A decision to hop or not hop on the RNG lynch wagon is dependent on personal ideas about how useful RNG is, and whether or not it paints someone as scummy depends on their reasoning and history, not the simple fact that they did or did not hop on. Calling holyflare scum, likewise, is not in and of itself a good strat. I too don't like holyflare's play, but you think I am scum, and it is almost certainly because of my interactions with holyflare. Instead of calling him a newb card player and voting him, as risen did, without serious explanation and an attempt to help him, I actually interacted with him seriously. playing the newb card is also something newbies do. the optimal response is mine, not risen's. Mine determines holyflare's alignment. Risen did not attempt to suss out what was up with holyflare. he laid some smackdown, but hasn't seriously followed it up. Where is he in convincing me to vote holyflare as I interact with holyflare? After all, he thinks holyflare is scum, no? I find risen scummy for that reason. I think you're scum for pulling the RNG bullshit again. I didnt attempt to find out what was up with holyflare, I laid some smackdown! So am I scum for that too? Holyflare is scum because he instantly jumps on a policy and then writes a whole bunch of stuff saying he is a noob. Without actually saying those words.
Yes, that's a scummy thing you did. Are you claiming it's not scummy? Your goal, especially in a small newbie like this, should be to interact and find out more about him, unless you're so clearly sure he's scum that you're done with him.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:27 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:23 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:20 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:17 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:16 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:15 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:15 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:10 Blazinghand wrote:
Really when I think about it I still want to lynch Oats, beyond just the RNG. His decision to OMGUS and throw suspicion on me is pretty retarded, and though I could see a town oats (since oats is an irrational player) doing something like that out of spite and misery, this is more likely to come from scum who's just pissed to be nailed by RNG. I'm gonna stick with my vote on him for now. What the fuck BH? Where did I say you were bad in the post I called you scummy in? This post makes no sense. None. What's your read on Risen? null ~~ town Why? Cause he doesnt hop on the RNG lynch wagon. And cause he called Holyflare scum. I personally do not find either of these reasons compelling. A decision to hop or not hop on the RNG lynch wagon is dependent on personal ideas about how useful RNG is, and whether or not it paints someone as scummy depends on their reasoning and history, not the simple fact that they did or did not hop on. Calling holyflare scum, likewise, is not in and of itself a good strat. I too don't like holyflare's play, but you think I am scum, and it is almost certainly because of my interactions with holyflare. Instead of calling him a newb card player and voting him, as risen did, without serious explanation and an attempt to help him, I actually interacted with him seriously. playing the newb card is also something newbies do. the optimal response is mine, not risen's. Mine determines holyflare's alignment. Risen did not attempt to suss out what was up with holyflare. he laid some smackdown, but hasn't seriously followed it up. Where is he in convincing me to vote holyflare as I interact with holyflare? After all, he thinks holyflare is scum, no? I find risen scummy for that reason. Calling someone out for the only thing worth calling someone out on at the time makes me scummy? You also disregard the fact that I can be doing other things while doing things in mafia. Why is that?
The point that you haven't made a serious attempt to A) engage with holyflare, your scumread or B) convince Blazinghand, another player in the thread, who isn't voting your scumread, to vote your scumread
is suspicious. This is literally true.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Look, Oats, you have to admit, it IS pretty weird that Risen hasn't been trying to convince me, right? Like, even drawing some weird unflipped associative tell shit you can't just go and say "I'm not going to try to convince BH, who's literally in the thread right now and rather influential as a town player, that HF is scum". You also have to admit, do you not, that given that holyflare IS LITERALLY A NEWBIE, it's possible he doesn't get what playing the newb card means? It's possible that yes, the reaction should be suspicion, but also an attempt to draw him into conversation? That not doing that is sub-optimal, and therefore scummy?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:29 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:28 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:26 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:23 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:20 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:17 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:16 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:15 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:15 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:10 Blazinghand wrote:
Really when I think about it I still want to lynch Oats, beyond just the RNG. His decision to OMGUS and throw suspicion on me is pretty retarded, and though I could see a town oats (since oats is an irrational player) doing something like that out of spite and misery, this is more likely to come from scum who's just pissed to be nailed by RNG. I'm gonna stick with my vote on him for now. What the fuck BH? Where did I say you were bad in the post I called you scummy in? This post makes no sense. None. What's your read on Risen? null ~~ town Why? Cause he doesnt hop on the RNG lynch wagon. And cause he called Holyflare scum. I personally do not find either of these reasons compelling. A decision to hop or not hop on the RNG lynch wagon is dependent on personal ideas about how useful RNG is, and whether or not it paints someone as scummy depends on their reasoning and history, not the simple fact that they did or did not hop on. Calling holyflare scum, likewise, is not in and of itself a good strat. I too don't like holyflare's play, but you think I am scum, and it is almost certainly because of my interactions with holyflare. Instead of calling him a newb card player and voting him, as risen did, without serious explanation and an attempt to help him, I actually interacted with him seriously. playing the newb card is also something newbies do. the optimal response is mine, not risen's. Mine determines holyflare's alignment. Risen did not attempt to suss out what was up with holyflare. he laid some smackdown, but hasn't seriously followed it up. Where is he in convincing me to vote holyflare as I interact with holyflare? After all, he thinks holyflare is scum, no? I find risen scummy for that reason. I think you're scum for pulling the RNG bullshit again. I didnt attempt to find out what was up with holyflare, I laid some smackdown! So am I scum for that too? Holyflare is scum because he instantly jumps on a policy and then writes a whole bunch of stuff saying he is a noob. Without actually saying those words. Yes, that's a scummy thing you did. Are you claiming it's not scummy? Your goal, especially in a small newbie like this, should be to interact and find out more about him, unless you're so clearly sure he's scum that you're done with him. Im very clearly sure he's scum. Also, you know there are pressure votes? And I can change my vote at any time? So its not like once I vote for him, I cant change my mind. So yeah, I dunno why you are calling me and Risen scum because we have scumreads we are willing to vote on. Why isnt Holyflare interacting with me if he called me scum then?
I don't see how your vote being a pressure vote means that you can't write a case, try to convince people, or hell, try to interact with the guy you're supposedly pressuring. Of course you can change your mind! The fact that you and Risen are scummy (and i'm not 100% sure that either of you are scum, of course) isn't that you vote, it's HOW you vote. Do you understand this?
On October 02 2013 13:31 Oatsmaster wrote:
Since when does BH play self righteous dick?
As any alignment?
So you thing this is... null? or are you just whining.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
@Holyflare: weigh in now on these interactions. state opinions, draw / refine reads, interact with the people voting you. refine your reads on them, and their reads on you.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:35 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:33 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:29 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:28 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:26 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:23 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:20 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:17 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:16 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:15 Blazinghand wrote:
[quote]
What's your read on Risen? null ~~ town Why? Cause he doesnt hop on the RNG lynch wagon. And cause he called Holyflare scum. I personally do not find either of these reasons compelling. A decision to hop or not hop on the RNG lynch wagon is dependent on personal ideas about how useful RNG is, and whether or not it paints someone as scummy depends on their reasoning and history, not the simple fact that they did or did not hop on. Calling holyflare scum, likewise, is not in and of itself a good strat. I too don't like holyflare's play, but you think I am scum, and it is almost certainly because of my interactions with holyflare. Instead of calling him a newb card player and voting him, as risen did, without serious explanation and an attempt to help him, I actually interacted with him seriously. playing the newb card is also something newbies do. the optimal response is mine, not risen's. Mine determines holyflare's alignment. Risen did not attempt to suss out what was up with holyflare. he laid some smackdown, but hasn't seriously followed it up. Where is he in convincing me to vote holyflare as I interact with holyflare? After all, he thinks holyflare is scum, no? I find risen scummy for that reason. I think you're scum for pulling the RNG bullshit again. I didnt attempt to find out what was up with holyflare, I laid some smackdown! So am I scum for that too? Holyflare is scum because he instantly jumps on a policy and then writes a whole bunch of stuff saying he is a noob. Without actually saying those words. Yes, that's a scummy thing you did. Are you claiming it's not scummy? Your goal, especially in a small newbie like this, should be to interact and find out more about him, unless you're so clearly sure he's scum that you're done with him. Im very clearly sure he's scum. Also, you know there are pressure votes? And I can change my vote at any time? So its not like once I vote for him, I cant change my mind. So yeah, I dunno why you are calling me and Risen scum because we have scumreads we are willing to vote on. Why isnt Holyflare interacting with me if he called me scum then? I don't see how your vote being a pressure vote means that you can't write a case, try to convince people, or hell, try to interact with the guy you're supposedly pressuring. Of course you can change your mind! The fact that you and Risen are scummy (and i'm not 100% sure that either of you are scum, of course) isn't that you vote, it's HOW you vote. Do you understand this? On October 02 2013 13:31 Oatsmaster wrote:
Since when does BH play self righteous dick?
As any alignment?
So you thing this is... null? or are you just whining. I dont understand how you equate having a extreme stance on someone from their first post = scummy. Both me and Risen explained reasons to think that Holyflare is scum and you seem to think that Holyflare is scummy too. WHAT THE FUCK IS THERE TO CONVINCE YOU ABOUT ?? ? ? ?? ? I dont know if you are bad or if you are scum BH.
....
I don't see how your vote being a pressure vote means that you can't write a case, try to convince people, or hell, try to interact with the guy you're supposedly pressuring.
the point i'm getting at here isn't that having a strong stance early on is scummy. THIS IS NOT MY POINT. STOP LYING AND STATING THAT IT IS MY POINT. my point is the lack of follow-up, the lack of interaction with the guy being voted or the guy not voting him. After all, if I REALLY do think holyflare is scummy, you should be all over me trying to refine my scumread on him. I shouldn't have to twist your arm to get you to do this.
On October 02 2013 13:34 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:31 Blazinghand wrote:
Look, Oats, you have to admit, it IS pretty weird that Risen hasn't been trying to convince me, right? Like, even drawing some weird unflipped associative tell shit you can't just go and say "I'm not going to try to convince BH, who's literally in the thread right now and rather influential as a town player, that HF is scum". You also have to admit, do you not, that given that holyflare IS LITERALLY A NEWBIE, it's possible he doesn't get what playing the newb card means? It's possible that yes, the reaction should be suspicion, but also an attempt to draw him into conversation? That not doing that is sub-optimal, and therefore scummy? Or I'm playing dota
doesn't prevent you from posting from what i've seen.
On October 02 2013 13:36 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:31 Blazinghand wrote:
Look, Oats, you have to admit, it IS pretty weird that Risen hasn't been trying to convince me, right? Like, even drawing some weird unflipped associative tell shit you can't just go and say "I'm not going to try to convince BH, who's literally in the thread right now and rather influential as a town player, that HF is scum". You also have to admit, do you not, that given that holyflare IS LITERALLY A NEWBIE, it's possible he doesn't get what playing the newb card means? It's possible that yes, the reaction should be suspicion, but also an attempt to draw him into conversation? That not doing that is sub-optimal, and therefore scummy? Literally a newbie doesnt mean you play the noob card unless you think it helps you. I only remember playing the noob card in my first few scumgames but none of my towngames because it served no purpose. Why do you think Holyflare is a complete and total idiot that is bad at mafia?
I don't say holy flare is a complete and total idiot that is bad at mafia. Another lie from oats. The point I'm getting at is, the noob card is not an auto scum read, and honestly, although I find it scummy, my reaction isn't to vote him then use that as an opportunity to opt out of the thread. I use it as an opportunity to opt INTO the thread.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:36 Oatsmaster wrote:
I cant take this.
Gone for like 12 hours.
Don't worry oats, for your lies, your misrepresentations, and your attempts to fake-push the holyflare case, I'll make you gone forever by the end of this day.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:41 Oatsmaster wrote:I guess Ill just wait for smarter people to show up then. Show nested quote +I don't say holy flare is a complete and total idiot that is bad at mafia. Another lie from oats. The point I'm getting at is, the noob card is not an auto scum read, and honestly, although I find it scummy, my reaction isn't to vote him then use that as an opportunity to opt out of the thread. I use it as an opportunity to opt INTO the thread.
I dont understand what opting in and out of the thread means. Can super obviously town BH explain?
Sure, I'll explain. The point I'm getting at here is that you chose to make a vote and to act in such a way that you did not seriously interact with your scum target. You didn't talk to HF, you didn't try to get him to post reads or to develop your read on him. You wrote a post then opted out of the discourse-- you wrote something that would look like a contribution without seriously convincing other players or learning more about your target. The goal of a townie is to promote a good discussion and learn more about what people have to say, what they think, and so on. When you see someone play the newb card (which, apparently, is a SUPER obvious scumtell) and that person is literally new, your reaction shouldn't be "ah-hah! i'm done thinking!" but rather, an opt-IN. it should be "ah-hah! time to learn more!"
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:42 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +the point i'm getting at here isn't that having a strong stance early on is scummy. THIS IS NOT MY POINT. STOP LYING AND STATING THAT IT IS MY POINT. my point is the lack of follow-up, the lack of interaction with the guy being voted or the guy not voting him. After all, if I REALLY do think holyflare is scummy, you should be all over me trying to refine my scumread on him. I shouldn't have to twist your arm to get you to do this.
So you vote for someone then you ask him to explain? If I think a guy is scum, then why do I have to have interaction with him? And if everyone else in the thread thinks the same way, then why do I have to have interaction with them?
The answer seems obvious to me. Your goal is to establish the alignment of the guy you have a scumread on. Sure, you think he's scum, but you don't KNOW. So you talk with him. You talk with other players and try to convince them. Maybe they support you, maybe they point out how he's scummier or townier than you thought. In these interactions, most people betray what alignment they are through how they think-- be they town or scum. The goal is to develop a co-operative discourse in which people all have solid reads on each other. It involves an acknowledgement that part of what writing a case and voting is, is pressure-- it's developing your read.
On October 02 2013 13:44 Oatsmaster wrote:
Its funny that you played with me all these games with me BH, and you still dont know I exaggerate the hell out of my stuff.
When you lie, I will call you a liar. Quote me instead of putting words in my mouth.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
And I dont do what you just described in all of my town games and probably all of my scumgames?
I'm not voting you because you lied, Oats. I'm calling you a liar because you lied.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:48 Oatsmaster wrote:
Lets say that I use the noob card to explain why Im bad. Is that scummy BH?
Sure. And holyflare using the noob card is scummy as well. Generally, you can't excuse bad play by being a noob (as holyflare is) or being bad. The only solution is to try to play better. Playing the noob card is spending text explicitly asking for mercy without giving a legitimate reason for it.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:49 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:48 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
And I dont do what you just described in all of my town games and probably all of my scumgames?
I'm not voting you because you lied, Oats. I'm calling you a liar because you lied. Im not saying you voted me because of that BH. You liar.
I didn't say you said I voted you because you lied. huehuehuehue
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EPT
