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EBWOP se big dblue clarification " In the NEWBIE linked to"
On September 06 2013 13:00 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 12:43 ObviousOne wrote:On September 06 2013 12:30 AxleGreaser wrote:On September 06 2013 12:13 ObviousOne wrote:On September 06 2013 12:12 AxleGreaser wrote:On September 06 2013 11:52 ObviousOne wrote:On September 06 2013 11:50 AxleGreaser wrote:On September 06 2013 11:07 ObviousOne wrote:On September 06 2013 11:00 AxleGreaser wrote:On September 06 2013 10:25 ObviousOne wrote:
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Sure. I'll just summarize our interactions and the advice I gave him and why I believe he's mafia based on what I've taugh him.
1. Alakaslam wanted to fake claim a role to draw fire in one of his newbie games, because he believed he would be protecting someone who appeared to be claiming a power role. I specifically told him that confounding the town is not a pro-town move.
This game: randomizing items (messing with town plans)
This game: an exhaustive number of reaction videos
2. He wanted to point out the "PR slip" he perceived in the thread in that game in the thread (it wasn't but it's the intent that's important here) and was told that he shouldn't make it easier for mafia to spot power roles.
This game: counter-point is that he never pointed out anything particularly USEFUL to town either.
This game: counter-point is he threatened to fuck with town if BH was lynched but did nothing productive to divert it, either.
3. His spammy random style doesn't feel the same as it does in his previous games where I observed him as town.
This game: looks and feels MUCH more like spamming for the purpose of spamming.
Fact is, I'm amazed he has lived this long and I can't wait to see that I'm right with his flip. Cool you 'taught' him... ( I expect by that you mean you explained it very clearly) BUT did he learn? or did he continue to do stuff like that in other games? "confounding the town" (after you taught him?) Re: 2. You taught him not to point out PR roles... but then don't mention that he did that.... based on your experience coaching him is it surprising to you that "he never pointed out anything particularly USEFUL to town either." before the D1 post did you have an expectation that Alak in this game would be "pointed out anything particularly USEFUL to town either." Does him subsequently not pointing out anything useful to town indicate to you he did not receive a town PM? Re: 3 I am not sure about the feel issue, as that will just be a personal thing. As i went so far out on limb clearly i had a different feel read. I'm having trouble understanding what you're asking specifically here in this post. 1: Did he learn? I think so, he asked about the kinds of things it was OK to do and I helped him through some of those decisions. I didn't see him make the mistakes related to what I discussed with him when I watched him as town. Can I prove that he learned? Ha. Tell me how one goes about that. 2: He knew well enough to notice things that indicate powers and that means he was relatively observant as town. So what did he notice in this game that you think would make him town? 3: I read two entire games he played in and this one is way off the chart on randomness. I'm seeing it as trying to play scum like he plays town and overcompensating to the max. Subjective and my view. Does that help? ObviousOne: I'm having trouble understanding what you're asking specifically here in this post. Specifically your previous post only shows he is still bad (didnt learn what you told him) not that he is scum. Now you have added that you observed him "I didn't see him make the mistakes related to what I discussed with him when I watched him as town." + Show Spoiler [FYI +BTW as amatter of interest that would be how you "prove that he learned? Ha. Tell me how one goes about that." Earlier: "I specifically told him that confounding the town is not a pro-town move.
This game: randomizing items (messing with town plans)
This game: an exhaustive number of reaction videos"Above you say: I didn't see him make the mistakes related to what I discussed with him when I watched him as town. Do you have confidence he understood about how much he was messing with town plans by using the randomiser? How do you reach that conclusion? I am rather sure I have seen Alak posting all sorts fluff in games. (I have not checked are you sure he stopped posting that fluff after you "told him that confounding the town is not a pro-town move. " The confounding bit where he fucked us up royally with his item randomizer? Do you have confidence he understood about how much he was messing with town plans by using the randomiser? How do you reach that conclusion? Because as shitty as his posting can be, he's not retarded. I refuse to respond to that post.... it presents a false dichotmy wher you argue he is not retarded backing me intoa corner where if I oppose you I am claiming he is. I didnt. I will reword it for you. ObviousOne: Because as shitty as his posting can be, he's not likely to make that large an error. I assert he is. I earlier posted this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19662586which contained this link http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19028339which is link To Alak doing stuff just as out there... On September 03 2013 15:19 AxleGreaser wrote:
it is a response to Onegu who was scum fake claiming, watcher who saw Alak visited by the (obv) town(nosy neigh).
(onegu was a scum tracker who had tracked the towny)
Alak sees this and claims tracker... (some one who visits but is not necessarily visted.) and concludes merrily they are now both confirmed town.... its a bit out there... Ok?
it might just change your settings for just how likely Alak is to do stuff as town.
We're having a massive communication fail because I don't see an actual question here. If I'm understanding this right, you and I are on opposites sides of the fence when it comes to his use of the randomizer or whatever it was called. Is that correct? And that you also disagree that my subjective view on the other points also don't point to him being town. I'm not sure what I'm arguing against here, if anything. No I am quite sure using the randomiser was not pro town thing to do. I posted links to previous occasions where Alak has not thought stuff through at all. You are effectively claiming Alak was fully cognisant of the effects of the randomiser and chose to do them anyway. (aka scum motivated action.) In the NEWBIE linked toA watcher watched him be visited so he claimed tracker and concluded they were now both confirmed town. However as Debears called the duel... which is not pro town thing to do (IMO...) he really ought now do some talking.
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On September 06 2013 14:28 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 14:22 Risen wrote:
OO is the lynch now. The fact that there's a 24 hour delay on his power and no 24 hour or beginning of day restriction on debears power is absurd, but we have to deal with it. If debears lives past 24 hrs OO was lying. If he dies well lets not waste a lynch on a confirmed death. I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. I don't have to be alive for it to go down. It's not "24 hours" it's end-of-day-tomorrow-death. My shit is legit. He's terminally dead. Fin. Kaput. Hasta la fucking vista. Yippie ki yay, motherfucker.
End of which Day? (RL day, game Day?)
The next end of Game day post is Night 3... is that when you say he will die?
or is it later than that?
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On September 06 2013 19:05 Clarity_nl wrote:
Fuck, I dunno. debears please explain how you're so certain. It seems to me like you used your ability because you were the main lynch candidate after slam banned himself. I guess townies AND scum can do that, but town have to be pretty certain about their read whereas scum do not.
OO's shot boggles my mind, why not see who is getting lynched before using your shot? If we end up lynching debears now the shot is wasted. Can you explain OO?
@Debears
So far Debears I dont see you being so certain about your read....
So far I dont see the days lynch discussion getting any better than it would have been if you didnt use your power....
A significant part of any case made against Alakaslam was that he used his power in a way that hurt town.
Please explain how town is better off because you used nirvana strike.
On September 06 2013 12:09 debears wrote:
You guys will need it after I'm done with OO. Gonna get messy
ALso when is this messy coming? are you done with him yet?
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@Dear thread...
How is the lynch going?
Are we getting anything pro town out of it? (apart from a result good or not)
I got up have not read all of the thread.
I am trying to decide between weighing in and not. Anyone want to suggest whether I do.
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On September 07 2013 02:47 austinmcc wrote:
Onegu, WoS, and Zentor, would like to see what you guys think about this whole deal.
Yeah me too....
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On September 07 2013 06:31 Clarity_nl wrote:Ofcourse you should weigh in Axle.... Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 06:27 Stutters695 wrote:
I'm here on and off. You guys think OO is town? I'm on the fence about both of them but I just can't reconcile why he would shoot when he did. I don't really understand it either but the shot makes no sense from either alignment. Just scratch it off as an emotional response I guess.
Cool. So what the hell are people Lynching debears for?
yeah I really wanted to see what happened with his nirvana strike and after the lynch if he doesn't die to a day vig I will reconsider whether he got any town cred at all and simply made a god awful play or not.
OO however.... OMG what a way to throw a game as town?
he is in duel has day vig power.... What to do what to do... I know YOLO Debears.. except it only happens after the lynch.
OO as certain fact if town, decided he was so certain he would lose a duel with Debears that he used his power to make even more certain we would lynch him....
If OO was alive and claimed and said to town "I am day vig... I guess I am stuck in duel with Debears... I am certain I am town... I was a bit certain Debears was... but now you guys have to lynch one of us  . So as not to risk wasting my power treat today as double lynch and I will vig shoot anyone town tells me too via a ssecond vote in this thread...)"
If he even tried to milk his day vig in anyway at all.... for information. Nope he YOLO'd and peace out.
Lynch him....
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EBWOP
+ Show Spoiler +On September 07 2013 06:53 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 06:31 Clarity_nl wrote:Ofcourse you should weigh in Axle.... On September 07 2013 06:27 Stutters695 wrote:
I'm here on and off. You guys think OO is town? I'm on the fence about both of them but I just can't reconcile why he would shoot when he did. I don't really understand it either but the shot makes no sense from either alignment. Just scratch it off as an emotional response I guess. Cool. So what the hell are people Lynching debears for? yeah I really wanted to see what happened with his nirvana strike and after the lynch if he doesn't die to a day vig I will reconsider whether he got any town cred at all and simply made a god awful play or not. OO however.... OMG what a way to throw a game as town? he is in duel has day vig power.... What to do what to do... I know YOLO Debears.. except it only happens after the lynch. OO as certain fact if town, decided he was so certain he would lose a duel with Debears that he used his power to make even more certain we would lynch him.... If OO was alive and claimed and said to town "I am day vig... I guess I am stuck in duel with Debears... I am certain I am town... I was a bit certain Debears was... but now you guys have to lynch one of us . So as not to risk wasting my power treat today as double lynch and I will vig shoot anyone town tells me too via a ssecond vote in this thread...)" If he even tried to milk his day vig in anyway at all.... for information. Nope he YOLO'd and peace out. Lynch him....
Sorry
Lynch him.... (OO)
and when the day vig doesn't happen Lynch Debears tomorrow.
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Why would town OO shoot debears?
Is he certain he is going to lose the duel? If he is not then he could well just have wasted the shot.
There is no plausible town reason to shoot Debears as town... when Its debars vs you in a lynch.
To do it as part of your own defence, when the veracity of it is not even known until after the flip...
is unfathomable
and has no plausible town explanation.
OO is scum lynch him.
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On September 07 2013 07:02 cakepie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 06:54 AxleGreaser wrote:
Lynch him.... (OO)
and when the day vig doesn't happen Lynch Debears tomorrow.
The problem with this is that OO's delayed dayvig will kick in at D4 flip if I understand things correctly. Do we seriously wait until D5 to lynch debears? Can we actually last until then?
Not deciding tommorows lynch today... just making sure town does not get tunnelled that if OO flips scum that makes debears more towny just because...
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On September 07 2013 06:31 Clarity_nl wrote:Ofcourse you should weigh in Axle.... Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 06:27 Stutters695 wrote:
I'm here on and off. You guys think OO is town? I'm on the fence about both of them but I just can't reconcile why he would shoot when he did. I don't really understand it either but the shot makes no sense from either alignment. Just scratch it off as an emotional response I guess.
Really? Scratch it off as an emotional response?
With people who have a meta as such (emotional ill considered actions) maybe...
(which is why theyd be potential policy lynches)
Surely OO can play, could have thought through his action?
There are ways it can make sense as scum...
Almost anything can as scum...
How does it hurt scum to do that? (fake claim a day vig shot?)
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On September 07 2013 06:41 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 06:37 Risen wrote:On September 07 2013 06:35 Clarity_nl wrote:
Risen saying there's 5 people that claimed scum (and OO and debears are both scum)
Am I understanding you right? I'm saying everyone who is present and has read the thread and my post outlining the double scum bus and still holds their vote on debears is scum. So yeah, if you understand what I'm saying in my bolded post and have read the thread and still choose to vote debears you're scum. Which makes sense since I probably called out OO's plan to later claim he was lying and get everyone to lynch debears. I'm not confident in OO being scum. For a minute I thought about a scum powerplay but it makes less and less sense the more I think about it.
and if he is not scum then OO wasted his power utterly...... ?
wasted? yes wasted.
If OO is not scum (thus hes telling the truth) and you believe him and lynch Dbears then OOs power is wasted.
How non town motivated do you want players actions to be before you will lynch him....
You wanted to lynch Alakslam when all he did was press a randomiser that probably just moved items from townies to townies..
How you dont want to Lynch OO for a much scummier action? (wasting a Day vig)
BTW there will be no Day vig if hes scum...
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On September 07 2013 07:13 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 07:11 AxleGreaser wrote:On September 07 2013 06:31 Clarity_nl wrote:Ofcourse you should weigh in Axle.... On September 07 2013 06:27 Stutters695 wrote:
I'm here on and off. You guys think OO is town? I'm on the fence about both of them but I just can't reconcile why he would shoot when he did. I don't really understand it either but the shot makes no sense from either alignment. Just scratch it off as an emotional response I guess. Really? Scratch it off as an emotional response? With people who have a meta as such (emotional ill considered actions) maybe... (which is why theyd be potential policy lynches) Surely OO can play, could have thought through his action? There are ways it can make sense as scum... Almost anything can as scum... How does it hurt scum to do that? (fake claim a day vig shot?) Because everyone is willing to lynch him immediately? Why would he fake it, let alone fake it on the only other guy that can be lynched.
Why do it as town...? There is no reason. no good reason at all
It was about that point (when OO claimed Day vig shot on DB.) when I most seriously started to consider OO was trying to get lynched to make DB look good.
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On September 07 2013 07:04 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 07:03 AxleGreaser wrote:
Why would town OO shoot debears?
Is he certain he is going to lose the duel? If he is not then he could well just have wasted the shot.
There is no plausible town reason to shoot Debears as town... when Its debars vs you in a lynch.
To do it as part of your own defence, when the veracity of it is not even known until after the flip...
is unfathomable
and has no plausible town explanation.
OO is scum lynch him.
You're saying he wouldn't do it as town so he's scum, but explain why he would do it as scum. Do you believe they're both scum, Axle?
I believe either they are both scum.... or OO wants me to think that.
It will take me several hours of poring over Debears posts to decide for sure.
I dont buy the emotional.. knee jerk reaction 'Oh I am being voted in a duel what do what do... I know lash out the mean man who voted/dueled me. '
For OO to not think through that if you win the duel now your power is wasted is just..... implausible (for OO)
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On September 07 2013 07:25 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 07:22 AxleGreaser wrote:
BTW there will be no Day vig if hes scum...
Explain this please, this seems to only make sense if they're both scum.
yes I chucked that in.
My best working theory is they are both scum and if I left the thread alone, especially if the thread got the vote count so that one outcome or another was plausible, the other scum would throw their weight behind getting one or the other lynched and securing town cred for the survivor.
My best working theory is when it all started scum thought OO would get lynched.
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On September 07 2013 06:56 Risen wrote:
Axle has an extremely good point. Town OO would shoot someone who he is NOT up against, debears would get lynched, town would see his hit go through and move on from there.
This is so fucking simple. It is SO. FUCKING. SIMPLE.
Any town player looking at this who has the same limited information as me would agree here. This isn't even one of my usual crazy rants where I can in the back of my mind see that maybe I'm wrong if X, Y, Z happen to be true. This is the only logical choice.
it is that simple...
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People voting to save OO... and then never see if he lied.
Where is OO? Why is he not playing? How are you ever going to be sure he is town?
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On September 07 2013 07:26 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 07:26 Risen wrote:On September 07 2013 07:25 Clarity_nl wrote:On September 07 2013 07:22 AxleGreaser wrote:
BTW there will be no Day vig if hes scum...
Explain this please, this seems to only make sense if they're both scum. It means the dayvig claim is fake. Which is what I've been trying to get through to you. Yeah, which only makes sense if they're both scum which I do not buy. If they're both scum there was no need to fake a dayvig shot.
Yeah it does...
If they are both scum... it looks like way to ensure Oo gets lynched as its so daft.
If instead it gets believed or WIFOM'd as an emotional play... then how does it hurt ?
If Only OO is scum,
same logic applies except it requires scum to make an error under pressure. (over look how daft the play is)
Why not make an error like that as town? because you have had your Pm for the whole game and being trying to look for the best opportunity to use it wisely to help your win con. Yuo are way more likely to and have had time to consider when and why you'd use your power.
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On September 07 2013 08:00 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 07:54 AxleGreaser wrote:On September 07 2013 07:26 Clarity_nl wrote:On September 07 2013 07:26 Risen wrote:On September 07 2013 07:25 Clarity_nl wrote:On September 07 2013 07:22 AxleGreaser wrote:
BTW there will be no Day vig if hes scum...
Explain this please, this seems to only make sense if they're both scum. It means the dayvig claim is fake. Which is what I've been trying to get through to you. Yeah, which only makes sense if they're both scum which I do not buy. If they're both scum there was no need to fake a dayvig shot. Yeah it does... If they are both scum... it looks like way to ensure Oo gets lynched as its so daft. If instead it gets believed or WIFOM'd as an emotional play... then how does it hurt ? If Only OO is scum, same logic applies except it requires scum to make an error under pressure. (over look how daft the play is) Why not make an error like that as town? because you have had your Pm for the whole game and being trying to look for the best opportunity to use it wisely to help your win con. Yuo are way more likely to and have had time to consider when and why you'd use your power. Maybe I just have trouble putting myself in someone elses shoes if that were the case, because if I'm scum and I have a delayed dayvig ability I don't just suddenly blow it when I'm feeling pressure, whereas if I'm town I might. Why? Because as town I feel like I'm trying to win the game alone, whereas if I'm scum it's a team effort. Both alignments think about how to use their abilities the best they can all game long, no? This shot makes sense from neither alignment. I think OO looks town if you ignore the shot. Yeah the vote on debears is odd but look at his post on cakepie. debears on the other hand, called austin scum and said he didn't need to use nirvana strike to get him lynched, but then OMGUS nirvana strikes OO, with his reasons being: "I want towncred" and "I didn't wanna look like I was sheeping"
+ Show Spoiler +Sometimes as town I dfeel like i am trying to win the game alone too, buthen my rational mind reminds me thats not true. I do undertsand at least some people wont take the second rational step and just keep YOLOing day vig, and nirvanna strike, forever. (this town did run a this town aint big enough game where that was the cultural norm)
Both alignments do think about how to use their powers all game long.
Regarding powers town and scum ACTUALLY have....
Scum think about how to use them to help scum. town think about how to use them to help town. Scum suddenly trying to fake a town motivation for the use get it wrong more often.
Scum do not think that much about how to use powers they might under some conditions oneday fake claim.
Also scum OO has fake claimed rather well....
If we lynch him no harm done.
If we lynch DB then we can no longer verify whether he did or did not have that power...
If OO, is scum, Nothing wrong ...
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On September 07 2013 08:14 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 08:13 Stutters695 wrote:
I'm voting oo. he's the better choice ...??? Look at this. There's like 6 paragraphs of text above this post explaining why he's not the best choice and this is all you have to say Stutters?
There is also an enormous bunch of stuff saying why he is....
but today to merely say "he's the better choice" and not even bother choosing just which bits of reasoning convinced you... WTF?
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On September 07 2013 08:17 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2013 08:14 AxleGreaser wrote:On September 07 2013 08:00 Clarity_nl wrote:On September 07 2013 07:54 AxleGreaser wrote:On September 07 2013 07:26 Clarity_nl wrote:On September 07 2013 07:26 Risen wrote:On September 07 2013 07:25 Clarity_nl wrote:On September 07 2013 07:22 AxleGreaser wrote:
BTW there will be no Day vig if hes scum...
Explain this please, this seems to only make sense if they're both scum. It means the dayvig claim is fake. Which is what I've been trying to get through to you. Yeah, which only makes sense if they're both scum which I do not buy. If they're both scum there was no need to fake a dayvig shot. Yeah it does... If they are both scum... it looks like way to ensure Oo gets lynched as its so daft. If instead it gets believed or WIFOM'd as an emotional play... then how does it hurt ? If Only OO is scum, same logic applies except it requires scum to make an error under pressure. (over look how daft the play is) Why not make an error like that as town? because you have had your Pm for the whole game and being trying to look for the best opportunity to use it wisely to help your win con. Yuo are way more likely to and have had time to consider when and why you'd use your power. Maybe I just have trouble putting myself in someone elses shoes if that were the case, because if I'm scum and I have a delayed dayvig ability I don't just suddenly blow it when I'm feeling pressure, whereas if I'm town I might. Why? Because as town I feel like I'm trying to win the game alone, whereas if I'm scum it's a team effort. Both alignments think about how to use their abilities the best they can all game long, no? This shot makes sense from neither alignment. I think OO looks town if you ignore the shot. Yeah the vote on debears is odd but look at his post on cakepie. debears on the other hand, called austin scum and said he didn't need to use nirvana strike to get him lynched, but then OMGUS nirvana strikes OO, with his reasons being: "I want towncred" and "I didn't wanna look like I was sheeping" + Show Spoiler +Sometimes as town I dfeel like i am trying to win the game alone too, buthen my rational mind reminds me thats not true. I do undertsand at least some people wont take the second rational step and just keep YOLOing day vig, and nirvanna strike, forever. (this town did run a this town aint big enough game where that was the cultural norm) Both alignments do think about how to use their powers all game long. Regarding powers town and scum ACTUALLY have.... Scum think about how to use them to help scum. town think about how to use them to help town. Scum suddenly trying to fake a town motivation for the use get it wrong more often. Scum do not think that much about how to use powers they might under some conditions oneday fake claim. Also scum OO has fake claimed rather well.... If we lynch him no harm done. If we lynch DB then we can no longer verify whether he did or did not have that power... If OO, is scum, Nothing wrong ... Accept the possibility of the shot coming from town for one damn second. Ignore the shot, look at OO's play. Does he look like scum? Now look at debears. If OO flips scum all is well and good, if he flips town we are screwed. How many mislynches do we have left you reckon?
One or none. + Show Spoiler + Town may already be effectively or so clase as it doesnt matter an ornament on a duel between other protagonists. Until the game is over however I intend to try and lynch people that play openly against the town win con when on paper(past play) they have the skills to do better. Today thats OO.
I Started pushing him for a reason so yeah at the time he looked a bit scummy.
Was I terminally tunnelled and would not have moved on to try others? Nope. But DB forced the issue.
What was OOs response to pressure scummy or town? When i read it it felt like caught scum to me.
Am I 100% sold that DB is scum too? Nope.
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EPT
