EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XLIV
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hzflank
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Edit: Since only town have a cop, Miller is a negative power (worse than VT), where as godfather is a positive. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Roles | ||
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On July 09 2013 02:13 Stutters695 wrote: Obligatory USE YOUR COACHES We're great guys and here to help  With WoS as the scum coach, I do not think that town will need your assistance. | ||
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On July 09 2013 03:22 WaveofShadow wrote: Uh, ouch? Need I remind you that you won a game with Ace as the scum coach too? I meant it as a compliment. Sometimes the greatest players are the worst coaches because you just cannot teach pure brilliance. | ||
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On July 09 2013 04:09 Hurricane Sponge wrote: If you vote for an hzflank lynch based on pregame meta, I will fall instantly in love with you. Then scum should night kill the first person to vote for me, because as their lover you will also die. | ||
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On July 10 2013 21:11 AllHailHydraGod wrote: I haven't. Your sources are untrustworthy because your info is inaccurate I played 1 game that I replaced into. Considering that you have 28 total posts, there is no way that BH thinks you have played 4 games on that account. I assume he thinks that you are a smurf. | ||
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On July 11 2013 00:22 AllHailHydraGod wrote: He pm-ed me about it and and I told him (a little late, but regardless) I wasn't a smurf nor a hydra. Must've been my username that gave him the wrong impression. Fair enough. Come to think of it, Hydras would be p[retty good at Mafia, as long as there was a no tunneling clause. I'll be here all week. | ||
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Also, is a Veteran one-shot? | ||
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On July 13 2013 04:09 Chromatically wrote: I won't be here for two hours after start. Then who will call my first post scummy?  | ||
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I think it is in our best interest to try to lynch someone every day. This may seem a bit odd at first, because a mis-lynch is obviously better for scum than for town. However, the only way that town will win is by lynching scum, and we will never be sure if we are lynching town or scum unless the lynch actually goes through. If we narrowly fail to lynch then we end up spending the next day discussing it and do not move forward as much. Also, scum already know who they are. When someone is lynched the alignment information from their flip benefits town, but not scum. Therefore, I suggest we work together as much as possible to actually get lynches through, if they are in doubt. | ||
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On July 13 2013 07:26 Koshi wrote: Are there experienced players here? People that played a decent amount of games. Everyone here has played 3 or less games. On July 13 2013 07:24 Koshi wrote: Hi all. I played 1 newbie game in the TL+ forums and I am atm also playing in the nuclear mafia game. I am with Rainbows on the lynching of lurkers. The tl+ game got RUINED because nobody posted. So if you are town, I want you to make around 10 posts a day. Try to make posts that are aggressive and confront people with your thought. Don't be afraid to be wrong. If you are town, please consider doing this to help town and force scum to make posts. I think it is a bit early to be thinking about policy lynches on lurkers. Policy lynching can stifle discussion and we need discussion today. Once we get 24-36 hours in then we can consider it. Also, sometimes RL just happens for a day or two. Also, I think that there will be enough activity here. There are several players who I know will post a lot and we (the active players) cannot all die really early. | ||
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On July 13 2013 07:41 jrkirby wrote: Ok. I've been studying this long and hard, and I think I have enough evidence to make a clear case. hzflank is scum + Show Spoiler + On July 09 2013 04:04 hzflank wrote: I meant it as a compliment. Sometimes the greatest players are the worst coaches because you just cannot teach pure brilliance. Clearly, hzflank is lying about this compliment. Liars are always scum. And look who he's talking to: the scum coach. Obviously he's in league with them. He goes on, still talking to the scum: On July 09 2013 04:22 hzflank wrote: Then scum should night kill the first person to vote for me, because as their lover you will also die. This is an obvious admission that he wants town to die. Anyone who wants town to die is scum, end of story. I will. Right here, right now. And for his first post: On July 13 2013 07:11 hzflank wrote: So we are using a majority vote system. As we all know there is much more chance of a No Lynch with this system than with plurality voting. I think it is in our best interest to try to lynch someone every day. This may seem a bit odd at first, because a mis-lynch is obviously better for scum than for town. However, the only way that town will win is by lynching scum, and we will never be sure if we are lynching town or scum unless the lynch actually goes through. If we narrowly fail to lynch then we end up spending the next day discussing it and do not move forward as much. Also, scum already know who they are. When someone is lynched the alignment information from their flip benefits town, but not scum. Therefore, I suggest we work together as much as possible to actually get lynches through, if they are in doubt. He's trying to get us to sheep together and follow a Bandwagon instead of looking for evidence and finding scum. Finally: On July 13 2013 07:31 hzflank wrote: Everyone here has played 3 or less games. I think it is a bit early to be thinking about policy lynches on lurkers. Policy lynching can stifle discussion and we need discussion today. Once we get 24-36 hours in then we can consider it. Also, sometimes RL just happens for a day or two. Also, I think that there will be enough activity here. There are several players who I know will post a lot and we (the active players) cannot all die really early. Trying to defend one of the scum who is planning to lurk. You can't ignore all this evidence guys. hzflank is scum. ##Vote: hzflank Sometime's it's hard being green . If only I had a Donkey companion to help me.I would like to commend you for voting in this thread as well as the voting thread, as it will make it easier to read back through the game later. I am highly confident that there will be a lurker in this game, but knowing that does not make me scum, it means that I have played with StimAddict before and he lurked hardcore while being town. Lurkers are a pain, but I just don't want to keep discussing lurking at this very early stage, when half the players have not even posted yet. Thanks for the vote though, it should help us get things moving. Oh, and I assume that you are not serious about the no-lynch stuff. If that's the case then no need to mention it, but if you seriously think that no lynches would be good then I would like to hear why. | ||
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On July 13 2013 08:03 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Upon realizing the importance of identifying my own biases, I am hereby disclosing everything I think I know now. If you catch me treating you based on any of the following, ask me to support it with analysis from this game if you feel I'm being unfair or displaying bias Why are you giving people advice on how to refute your cases against them, before you even make the cases? | ||
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On July 13 2013 08:33 Superfluous wrote: While I agree that we should lynch someone if they are super scummy, I'd like to point out that voting for no lynch is an option. Assuming I'm interpreting the rules/setup right, mafia only has 1 kp so there's no immediate motive for lynching such as reducing kp. It may be a stronger play to not lynch and hope that cop(if there is one) gets a turn to check before lynch. It is a risk though because I believe we are not guaranteed to have a cop. Just an idea I wanted to throw out and get your guys' thoughts on. How does the cop inform the town without letting the scum know that he is the cop? | ||
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On July 13 2013 08:42 Umasi wrote: That's not even specific to this no lynch strategy, or whatever how will the cop EVER let town know the result without revealing he's a cop? (I certainly have no fucking clue) To get this out of the way right now, if anyone has any questions such as this regarding blue roles then I suggest you talk to a coach. We are all VTs in here. | ||
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Since then, Sponge did a little coaching. Sponge has come under pressure from multiple people (for his opening post), and has dealt with it while being reasonably open. The only time that he has not been open is by refusing to post the other version of his opening post. Sponge did a little coaching again as he tried to stop Umasi from defending him. So far my read on Sponge has moved very slightly towards town. Since his opening, Jrkirby has attacked Sponge for his opening post, and done nothing else. That's fine because it is early and Jrkirby is pushing to get a reaction from someone. This is not scummy to me, null read. Umasi has defended Hurricane, which cannot be viewed as scummy at this point. Umasi has attacked Superfluous. I would say that this attack could be scummy as it is based on nothing, but it could just be to get Super to post more (he only has one post). Umasi then repeats that he thinks Super's post is scummy and votes for him. The problem I have with this is that Umasi claims Super's only post was scummy, when I do not think that it was. On July 13 2013 08:33 Superfluous wrote: While I agree that we should lynch someone if they are super scummy, I'd like to point out that voting for no lynch is an option. Assuming I'm interpreting the rules/setup right, mafia only has 1 kp so there's no immediate motive for lynching such as reducing kp. It may be a stronger play to not lynch and hope that cop(if there is one) gets a turn to check before lynch. It is a risk though because I believe we are not guaranteed to have a cop. Just an idea I wanted to throw out and get your guys' thoughts on. If Umasi was looking for a reaction then I do not understand why he posted: On July 13 2013 08:59 Umasi wrote: Where the hell are you. You popped in, gave a single post, that I think is scummy as crap, still haven't show back up. Pretty confusing, because the post you gave was irrelevant. How was Super's post scummy as crap? I do not think that Umasi is looking for scum, and if he is not just fishing for Super to respond then I think that Umasi is just looking for a neutral place to put his early vote. Unlike Jrkirby's, Umasi's vote is not a troll vote. I have a slight scum read on Umasi. | ||
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On July 13 2013 09:44 Rainbows wrote: What do you think about Stims reaction, HZ? He kinda derailed to some soft pressure :/ The first thing to note is that Stim was unsure of whether Jrkirby's post was a joke or not. Stim reacted very different than everyone else did, but this could be because he viewed it as semi-serious while everyone else viewed it as a joke. After that Stim tries to defend himself. Again Stim's reaction seems odd at first, but normal if you consider that Stim thinks the original case was serious. Stim is posting in an aggressive manner but that is more of a personality tell than an alignment tell. I cannot help but be wish-washy here and conclude: I am eager to see more from Stim because I have absolutely no read on his alignment at this point. | ||
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As far as I am concerned that is a red mark against Stim. During the course of the game everyone gets red marks against them. The important thing is to look at each red mark and ask 'Could that have come from a town position?'. In this case I think it could of come from a town position, based on my earlier assumption that Stim took the original post too seriously and later tried to invent justification for his posts based on a less serious early position. A red mark, but not enough to make me highly confident that he is scum. The other important thing about red marks is to get a feel for how many there are compared to green marks and posts in general. This is where the martyring is a problem, as we need Stim to continue to contribute. @Stim, I suggest that you move on. Instead of discussing what has already happened, dive some filters and form the best reads that you can. Then post your reads, showing as much of your reasoning as you can. This will give us new things to discuss with you, so that you do not have to keep talking about that happened yesterday. If you do not post again then the red mark will still be there but there will not be any green marks to balance it. | ||
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On July 13 2013 23:56 Superfluous wrote: I'd still like to here some more from Hzflank Anything specific? On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote: Right now my biggest scum read is HZflank, because I still think Umasi is doing mostly pro town moves yet hz says its scummy. I disagree. When I made that post Umasi had not really done anything that I thought was pro town. He may have since been pro town, but I am not finished with my catch up and analysis so I will comment on that later. Additionally, I think my original point on Umasi was a good one at the time it was posted. On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote: He also had an early post or two that distracted somewhat from the discussion, which I'm always suspicious of. I disagree again. My first three posts might be viewed that way, but in fact we were trying to stimulate discussion at the time and I believe that it was beneficial to make those posts in the hope of starting more discussion. From what I can tell, your thought process was: Super thinks that Umasi is town and hzflank thinks Umasi was scummy, therefore Super thinks that hzflank is scummy. Now Super needs to add reasons for why he thinks hzflank is scummy because Super's read should not be based on that weak day 1 association. You may notice that since the conversation really started to flow in the way that we want it to, I have not made many posts but every single post I have made is dedicated to finding scum. Yet, of all the people you could find scummy for posting distractions you chose me. Please tell me where I am wrong? To be specific, I do not believe your reasons for having me as your biggest scum read and I want to understand how I actually came to be your biggest scum read. | ||
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On July 13 2013 21:54 Koshi wrote: Reading Umasi his filter after the Chroma filter makes me want to lynch one of these 2 guys. Umasi and Chroma are either bromancing it up on the stimaddict lynch, or they are both scum. Here is Umasi his game till now: --> Defend Sponge while pushing lynch on Superfluous. --> Argue with Sponge about Chroma while pusing a lynch on StiMaDDict. Try to stay away from day 1 associations. I have some prior with this and I can tell you that you cannot read anything into it until you see a flip. I have been looking into Umasi. He has posted a lot of fluff and there seem to be some inconsistencies with his scum-hunting where he provides good reasoning for some reads but not for others. He also seems a little too sure that certain other players are town. My conclusion on Umasi was that I do not want him to be lynched at this time. Notice that is not me saying that I have a strong town read on him. I think it is unlikely that scum would of posted as much as Umasi has. I think it is unlikely that scum would be so willing to sheep at this early stage of day 1. Mostly, I think that Umasi will continue to be active and certainly has the capacity to post some good analysis in the near future. I think that there are at least 2 players who are more likely to be scum than Umasi, not counting the lurkers or people who I have not yet fully read into. Therefore, I do not want Umasi to be lynched at this time. As for Chrom, I think his interactions with Stim seemed to come from a town point of view. He pushed a little and then when he voted he did so with a genuine reason. Chrom pushed his read for a while which I think is standard. Koshi, what do you think of Super? | ||
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On July 14 2013 01:51 StiMaDDict wrote: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2013 10:32 jrkirby wrote: Honestly? I have real trouble seeing scum until I see voting patterns. I'm slightly more suspicious of Sponge, Umasi, and Rainbows than the rest. Sponge I've stated my reasons for. I don't really trust my read on Rainbows because [meta here] I thought he was scum last time I played with him and he wasn't. Umasi just reads a bit ornery, so that could be the reason for my weak read. My vote on hzflank was kinda a combo of joke/pressure as you guys pointed out. It got a bit of discussion, but didn't get much of a rise out of hzflank, who I currently have null read on. I guess I should unvote him now, since the pressure obviously didn't do too much. ##unvote: hzflank A list of suspicion list that doesn't have "legitimate" reasons or evidence. So he does feel suspicious about Sponge afterall about him not sharing his opening post in time, I'm assuming. About Rainbow, I am not sure. He words in a confusing way. In last game, jkirby thought Rainbow was scum but he was a town. So in this game he thinks Rainbow is a town but he could be a scum or vise versa? Concerning Umasi, his reasoning it not satisfying either. Also he doubts his ability to read other people. This is a point in Stim's case that I think deserves extra attention. Kirby says he suspects three people and provides a weak reason for one of them and no reason for the others. If I had three scum reads then I would know why I thought them to be scummy, or at the very least I would investigate further to see whether my read held up to analysis. Kirby, can you tell us why you had a scum read on Rainbows and Umasi? Do you still have scum reads on them (or Sponge)? | ||
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On July 14 2013 03:30 Rainbows wrote: I think Gotard is mafia I don't think that anything in Rainbows' case is strong. However, I think that Gotard looks really scummy for other reasons. I don't mind lists if they are useful. The problem that I have with that list is that I do not see a single scum read on it, even though in Gotard's next post he mentions that he has 'biggest scum reads'. I am wondering: who are his biggest scum reads? | ||
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On July 14 2013 04:29 Superfluous wrote: I don't see how hzflank and xzavier have contributed substantially more than me. While knowing everyone's scum reads is good, I don't like it when people show up, say their scum reads, then expect other people to act on them. I expected you to act on one of my posts. I posted this for you: + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2013 00:38 hzflank wrote: Anything specific? I disagree. When I made that post Umasi had not really done anything that I thought was pro town. He may have since been pro town, but I am not finished with my catch up and analysis so I will comment on that later. Additionally, I think my original point on Umasi was a good one at the time it was posted. I disagree again. My first three posts might be viewed that way, but in fact we were trying to stimulate discussion at the time and I believe that it was beneficial to make those posts in the hope of starting more discussion. From what I can tell, your thought process was: Super thinks that Umasi is town and hzflank thinks Umasi was scummy, therefore Super thinks that hzflank is scummy. Now Super needs to add reasons for why he thinks hzflank is scummy because Super's read should not be based on that weak day 1 association. You may notice that since the conversation really started to flow in the way that we want it to, I have not made many posts but every single post I have made is dedicated to finding scum. Yet, of all the people you could find scummy for posting distractions you chose me. Please tell me where I am wrong? To be specific, I do not believe your reasons for having me as your biggest scum read and I want to understand how I actually came to be your biggest scum read. You did not respond to me. How can you accuse me of not acting on my reads when you refused to answer my question? You still have not answered my question, which leads me to believe that you are unable to provide a believable answer. To be clear, the question is: why did you initially find me scummy? | ||
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On July 13 2013 23:56 Superfluous wrote: I'd still like to here some more from Hzflank, cloud 9, night cat and other lurkers I've forgotten. Koshi and Gotard have euro time zones so it makes sense that they weren't active early on On July 14 2013 04:45 Superfluous wrote: I am suspicious of Hzflank because he had posts which didn't contribute or add anything (he defended it by saying it's his style of getting discussion started) and because he posted early on then didn't post much afterwards. So you are suspicious of me due to the times of the day that I post, but other Europeans do not get suspicion for the same reason? | ||
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Super introduces himself as a player who understands that people cannot always respond to posts quickly and as a player who thinks that applying pressure on other players is a good thing. His later posts do not exhibit these traits at all. On July 13 2013 09:53 Superfluous wrote: I apologize for not answering sooner, the other forums I have played on move much slower and there arent 2 and a half pages of posts after being gone for just 3-4 hours. I would be annoyed at your pushing but I think in general its a good town move as it forces information out of people. Before even starting to scum-hunt, Super is concerned with self-preservation. He is not even interested in getting good conversation flowing to produce information. Self-preservation comes first. On July 13 2013 10:05 Superfluous wrote: At the moment no, as I said I was gone for a couple hours then came back and just skimmed through the thread . I mean to go through it again in more detail once I'm finished defending myself or w/e. One of the first things that Super says comes to his mind is that Cloud has not posted yet. Why is this the next thing that Super thinks of, after self-preservation? He later gives a reason but I cannot understand how he arrived at that train of thought. On July 13 2013 10:05 Superfluous wrote: Two things are on my mind though. One is that I think you are town (not just to suck up to you b/c you are pressuring me). Reasons being that in my personal experience those who are most aggressive are generally town, and also that this is a semi-noob game so I'm unsure if a mafia would have the confidence to go out and control the game/ put pressure on early on. Another thing is that I dont think I've seen much (if anything) from Cloud 9. He may be in same situation as me and I'll give him Benefit of the doubt though. On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote: Cloud 9 was a name I didn't see when comparing the posts I saw to the player list, so I pointed it out. Next Super says that he has not yet scum-hunted, but so far I was his biggest scum read. That would be fine if his reads were fluid after he actually did some scum-hunting. As we will see later though, his read on me persists until I really hammer home the point that there is no good town motivation for his read on me. Also, why is he so worried that posting this early read might push him to being lynched? I think that it is because he already knows that he cannot actually justify his read on me. On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote: In my own post I said that I was going to look it over again and get reads, obviously meaning that I hadn't looked that hard for scum yet. Right now my biggest scum read is HZflank, because I still think Umasi is doing mostly pro town moves yet hz says its scummy. If it pushes to me actually being lynched I think that I'd still feel this way. He also had an early post or two that distracted somewhat from the discussion, which I'm always suspicious of. Next, Super calls me a lurker but says that the other Europeans should be excused for not posting much. I had already made several posts at this point and am a European myself. He says that he wants to see more from me, but does not give any indication of what he wants to see. When I later make posts directed towards him he completely ignores then as though they are invisible. If he had a scum read on me and wanted to see more, why does he not reply to my posts? On July 13 2013 23:56 Superfluous wrote: I'd still like to here some more from Hzflank, cloud 9, night cat and other lurkers I've forgotten. Koshi and Gotard have euro time zones so it makes sense that they weren't active early on, and right now they are trying to contribute something so they're town reads for me. On July 14 2013 00:38 hzflank wrote: From what I can tell, your thought process was: Super thinks that Umasi is town and hzflank thinks Umasi was scummy, therefore Super thinks that hzflank is scummy. Now Super needs to add reasons for why he thinks hzflank is scummy because Super's read should not be based on that weak day 1 association. You may notice that since the conversation really started to flow in the way that we want it to, I have not made many posts but every single post I have made is dedicated to finding scum. Yet, of all the people you could find scummy for posting distractions you chose me. Please tell me where I am wrong? To be specific, I do not believe your reasons for having me as your biggest scum read and I want to understand how I actually came to be your biggest scum read. Next Super says that he still thinks I am scum. His reasons are that I have not posted anything which contributed to finding scum. I may be biased on this point, but I do not see how a town Super could say that I had not been contributing. Note that I stopped playing at around 2 AM my time last night, but Super seems to think that it was scummy of me to stop posting. Why would a town player think that? On July 14 2013 04:45 Superfluous wrote: Maybe I didn't make it clear enough in my posts, but my reasons for Hzflank and xzavier were not only because of association. I am suspicious of Hzflank because he had posts which didn't contribute or add anything (he defended it by saying it's his style of getting discussion started) and because he posted early on then didn't post much afterwards. Now, Super is still more concerned with self-preservation that with finding scum. He also gently suggests that we should consider a no lynch. If a town player was under pressure at this point they would push a scum-read as hard as they could, but they would not try for a no lynch. Super switches his primary scum read from me to Xzavier, without ever saying why I suddenly became less scummy or Xzavier became more scummy (as Xzavier has not posted in a long time). This is still self-preservation without pushing a scum target with any significant force. On July 14 2013 05:14 Superfluous wrote: Admittedly I am giving reads more to get off my back than to help us. I'm trying to get reads, but nothing is super strong so I'm not going to jump to lynch someone. I would vote for xzavier right now because he's my strongest read, but thats because we have to vote not because I feel he's 100% scum It really hurts us to lynch town day one, which is the same reason I brought up the idea of no lynching, and the same reason I'm trying to relieve pressure from myself. To conclude, Super's priorities seem to be 1) Stay Alive 2) Find a person to vote for 3) Find justifications for voting That is how scum plays and that is not how town plays. ##Vote: Superfluous | ||
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On July 14 2013 07:04 Chromatically wrote: Trying to stay alive isn't a scumtell though. Let's say that you come back to the thread and see a case on you. Your forat order of business, as would be any townie's, is to defend yourself. I really think that Super is just new. His posting doesn't feel like scum. He makes an honest effort to scumhunt, he points out things that he thinks are scummy (ex: one random sponge post). When the game starts on day 1 the first order of business is not to stay alive, but to create an environment in which scum can be found. The second order of business is to find scum. If you do these things then you do not have to worry about staying alive. While Super may be new he does say that he has experience on other forums. There was not a case on him, only some very light pressure. There was no need for him to defend himself rather than looking for scum. I feel like I gave him a chance to explain his reads and he failed to do so. He did not have to give me reasoning that I fully agree with, he just had to show me reasoning that I can understand from a town point of view. It is very scummy that he avoided the questions and later gave answers that I cannot understand. He says that Xzavier is his current scum read, which is obviously a reasonable town position at this point. Super's reasoning there is understandable, but has not yet attempted to strengthen the read. What does he expect people to do about gut feelings? I cannot see anything in Super's filter that looks town. | ||
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On July 14 2013 05:56 Chromatically wrote: Kirby Stim's case on Kirby takes a lot of stuff that's not scummy and says it is, but it also has good points (some of which are probably repeated here). Here's what I don't like: a) fluff about Sponge's first post b) wishy-washy reads c) lurker list d) Stim interactions Kirby was probably 3rd on my radar, so I am not surprised that you posted this. I will explain why I thought that he was scummy in relation to your points, and add something regarding Stim that you missed. a) I do not mind the early fluff. The problem I have is that Kirby's filter is full of fluff. Apart from the Stim stuff it's basically all fluff. If Kirby had improved his posting without this prompt I would have been more comfortable with him. b) I think that having flexible reads is a good town sign, although that might be because I prefer to remain flexible myself. I agree with your point though, a town player would give a read at any point in time and then later change that read based on developments. c) I don't mind lists so I just included that post in the fluff pile. d) To me, the biggest thing about the Stim interactions is that Kirby called Stim stupid. There is no reason to call Stim stupid unless he is trying to fan the flames and there is no reason to do that while he was seemingly trying to get Stim to remain calm and post. On the whole I agree with your case and I am looking forward to seeing Kirby's response to it. However, I am not convinced that Kirby has more chance of flipping scum than Super. I will consider it some more. | ||
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On July 14 2013 07:39 Umasi wrote: Are you still going to stick with Gotard when there are more compelling cases out there to be on? (At least, ones that I think are more compelling) Let's not let Gotard off of the hook that easily. He still has not given us a firm scum read with reasoning behind it. | ||
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On July 14 2013 13:31 Chromatically wrote: This is literally a list of objectives as either alignment. Town obviously wants to stay alive. Finding a person to vote for with reasoning is also town. That list does not apply to either alignment. The first objective for town is to hunt scum, because that is the only way that town wins and we should all be playing to win. As town, if you are scum-hunting then there is a reasonable chance that no one will make a case against you, and even if they do it is not a terrible thing. When a town player has to defend themselves they should do so as strongly as they can and then continue with their scum hunting. A town player should not put survival first, but a scum player should. If you want to argue that it was bad town play that is one thing, but you (Chrom) should not be telling newbie players to put their survival before their scum-hunting, because that reduces the quality of town's play and reduces the chance of us winning the game. On July 14 2013 13:31 Chromatically wrote: In particular, I really like these two posts: Super wasn't under any pressure when he posted these. He's actively reading the thread, looking for scum, and most importantly sharing his thought process with the thread. This is very, very genuine and townie. Actually, Super was under a little pressure when he posted those as I had already posted this: On July 14 2013 00:38 hzflank wrote: Anything specific? I disagree. When I made that post Umasi had not really done anything that I thought was pro town. He may have since been pro town, but I am not finished with my catch up and analysis so I will comment on that later. Additionally, I think my original point on Umasi was a good one at the time it was posted. I disagree again. My first three posts might be viewed that way, but in fact we were trying to stimulate discussion at the time and I believe that it was beneficial to make those posts in the hope of starting more discussion. From what I can tell, your thought process was: Super thinks that Umasi is town and hzflank thinks Umasi was scummy, therefore Super thinks that hzflank is scummy. Now Super needs to add reasons for why he thinks hzflank is scummy because Super's read should not be based on that weak day 1 association. You may notice that since the conversation really started to flow in the way that we want it to, I have not made many posts but every single post I have made is dedicated to finding scum. Yet, of all the people you could find scummy for posting distractions you chose me. Please tell me where I am wrong? To be specific, I do not believe your reasons for having me as your biggest scum read and I want to understand how I actually came to be your biggest scum read. That is me putting pressure on Super before he ever did any scum hunting. Super also completely ignored it, which means that either: he is not properly reading the thread, he was scared to reply to me because he knew that I was on to him, or he thought that it was not worth defending because the quality of his town play meant that he would not be a lynch candidate anyway. As town he should be properly reading the thread and as town he should not be scared to reply to me. I am surprised if he thought he could not be a lynch target today. I still think that Super is really scummy. | ||
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On July 14 2013 13:31 Chromatically wrote: Finding a person to vote for with reasoning is also town. No it is not! Finding a reason to vote for someone is town. Finding a person to vote for with reasons is very much not town. What concerns me right now is that you know that. I cannot believe that you believe that. | ||
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On July 15 2013 00:25 Chromatically wrote: I'm really tempted to do a large defense of Super where I go through your cases point by point, but I'll leave it up to you if you'd rather hear from Super first. Your defense would be valuable so you should definitely post it at some point. The best thing is probably to write it and save it until Super posts, or if he doesn't then post yours a few hours before deadline. | ||
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On July 14 2013 04:29 Superfluous wrote: Going back through the posts, I'm a little alarmed at Hurricane Sponge's change of tone.In this post he disagrees with my opinion and says it casts suspicion on me, but doesnt state that I'm a huge scumread or anything. Here I interpreted his post as acknowledging that while we disagree, I was still trying to state my opinion and reasons for having that view. He then says some weird things here though. For instance, he says that he agrees with others' view of me who had semi-defended me, and in the same list puts me as the only scum read. I realize his view may have changed, but it strikes me especially considering in the second post I listed he acknowledged the possibility of a bandwagon on me just because of differing opinions. We also have a mutual disagreement on reads as well. I don't see how hzflank and xzavier have contributed substantially more than me. While knowing everyone's scum reads is good, I don't like it when people show up, say their scum reads, then expect other people to act on them. As for Stim I think he's more likely bad town then mafia. Then again everyone else is saying the same thing, so could be mafia excuse for not lynching him. After reading this a few times I see multiple possibilities for Super's motives. Super could actually be scum hunting here, but if so I disagree with his conclusions (That would not make Super scummy, disagreeing with conclusions is fine). Super misinterprets why Sponge says his (Super's) first post is scummy, which makes it seem to Super that Sponge's next post is inconsistent. I do not fully understand Super's points regarding Sponge's third post. Maybe Super could clarify that bit for me? Having a disagreement on reads (with Sponge) is irrelevant at that point as long as you can see the reasons for the reads. The earliest point that this can possibly matter is shortly before the day 1 deadline. Super then makes a really weird attack towards me, but I suppose that might be because he is seeing association between Sponge and I? (in a later post he claims that it is not due to association). I disagree that I should not share my reads as I like to share information when possible and encourage others to do the same. I disagree that I ever expected other people to push my reads, especially since I was already pushing my read on Super before he even made that post. He is gently pushing Sponge and then including me in his post where possible. My conclusion on this is that if my case on Super was solely based on this post then I would have no case. However, this post does not look town enough to make me drop the rest of my case, as this post could definitely of been made by a scum who was starting to feel pressure, and there is nothing about this post that gives me a very strong town read. | ||
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On July 15 2013 02:04 Chromatically wrote: If someone finds any part of that defense convincing, I can respond to it, but it doesn't change anything at all. The point is that Kirby hasn't given any real scumreads and hasn't actually been trying to find them. The reason for the posts to Sponge was fair enough. Even so, he still did not post enough real content until he was heavily pressured, but if he was afk then that is understandable. So, I believe his defence regarding the fluff point, so long as he makes more good posts before the end of the day. I do not buy his defence of his reads or of his Stim interactions, but I will post my comments on that in a separate post directed at Kirby. | ||
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On July 15 2013 01:47 jrkirby wrote: I said this before, and I'll say it again: I have real trouble seeing scum until I see voting patterns. Fortunately, I have seen a bit of voting now, so right after this post, I'm gonna dive some filters, read some scum, and give a vote. Anyway, who can really give confident scum reads halfway through day one? Anyone one who pretends that they can is either overconfident and bullshitting themselves, or actually scum. On July 15 2013 02:13 jrkirby wrote: Elaboration: What is the real scumtell at the end of the day? Who they voted for, when and why. Any scum can say anything they like, for example, they could choose to post a list of lurkers or choose not to post a list of lurkers. While some people might think that what they say is the scumtell, for example, Chromatically thinks anyone who posts a list of lurkers is automatically scum, in the end, scum can choose either way, and act as townish as they possibly can. Where the scum CAN'T hide, is their vote. Scum always vote with another reason behind it. They might buss each other, they might sheep, might spread out, might vote together. But at the end of the day, they vote with a different reason than town. And looking at how they vote is how you can find that. If no one has voted, I really don't think that you can find scum better than chance. Voting pattern's are one of the things that we look at to find scum. However, they are primarily used in association with reads that you already have. In fact, it is probably better to form reads first and then see if the voting patterns justify the reads. It might well be that you are not confident in your scum-hunting yet, but that does not mean that you should not try. In fact, your exchange with Sponge shows us that you were trying to scum-hunt at the start of the day. You claimed to be suspicious of Umasi and Rainbows. You did nothing to attempt to clarify your read on Umasi. You did attempt to clarify your read on Rainbows, but for one reason or another gave up very quickly. I think your defence is believable from a town perspective, but it is also weak and therefore does nothing to change my current read on you, which is scummy. To address Kirby's defence of his Stim interaction (which is why I think that Kirby is scummy): On July 13 2013 13:38 jrkirby wrote: I don't think he's town. I think he's stupid, and have a nullread. On July 15 2013 01:47 jrkirby wrote: And when I'm talking to someone to try to help them calm down, I'm going to phrase it from a "we're both town" perspective. Doing it any other way is going to backfire. Then why did you call him stupid? This is the most damning point that I have seen against you. You treat Stim as though you have a town read on him and then call him stupid and claim to have a null read. You now say that you were trying to help him calm down. Yet you called him stupid. When in your life have you ever gotten someone to calm down by calling them stupid? Why did you call Stim stupid? | ||
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On July 15 2013 02:57 Rainbows wrote: So I've done some analysis of the voting patterns of the moment. JrKirby is in grave danger... why isn't he voting Super? That strikes me as odd. Scum would do it to stay alive. Town would do it to stay alive. Anyone have some insight as to motivation (with the exception of 'he thinks Gotard is scum and not Super') because I can't justify it from either alignments perspective. There are several hours until the deadline so he can move his vote later as required. I would not read too much into it. | ||
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On July 15 2013 03:45 Superfluous wrote: Firstly I agree with Chroma's response to this, these are everyone's priorities especially early on. I do not and will not agree with this, and I expect that most other people will not agree, either. When the game starts, at the beginning of day 1, the first priority for scum is to not get lynched. The first priority for town is to create an atmosphere in which good reads can be made. The second priority for town is to hunt for scum and try to strengthen their reads. Staying alive barely even registers on the list of things to do. You admit that the first thing that you did was try to stay alive. I suppose you have to now as you cannot backtrack on that. It is my opinion that having such priorities makes you scum. I do not want to tunnel you over a single point, so I will call that a big red mark and wait to see what you post before the deadline. I see no point in pressuring you directly on this issue as you are just going to claim philosophical differences, which I consider a weak defense when your philosophy is terrible. | ||
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On July 15 2013 04:12 Chromatically wrote: Here is a DIRECT QUOTE from Incognito's "General Guide to Mafia" You do not establish your innocence by trying to avoid being lynched from the very start of the game. You establish your innocence by explaining your thought processes to other players. | ||
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On July 15 2013 04:38 Rainbows wrote: everyone thinks the guys on trial are scummy... except for theirbcounterwagons. dafaq is going on. I'm trying to get my head around this but it is WIFOM. It is just as likely that neither are scum as it as that both are scum, or of course just one of them might be scum. If the remaining 3 players would get their votes down then we might start to use this (2 hours until deadline). But from the spot we are in now I personally cannot use it. | ||
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On July 15 2013 05:02 Rainbows wrote: My gut says super. Can you try to elaborate on that? | ||
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On July 15 2013 05:06 StiMaDDict wrote: @hzflank: The deadline is 8:00 PM EDT. That's about 4 hours from now. That's not what a mod recently posted in the vote thread. Can you please tell us when the deadline is? | ||
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On July 15 2013 05:13 Rainbows wrote: I lied this describes Gotard better. My votes on super but I really dont care who's lynched between the two. #Scummylogic So you think that Gotard and Super are scum, but not Kirby? Just trying to clarify. | ||
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On July 15 2013 05:29 Superfluous wrote: Well the main strength of vet is getting hit at a point when mafia needs a kill then claiming. Now you should lead town since you claimed but you're saying you are getting replaced. It'd be a risky claim by maf but there's no definitive role list so we can't be certain that you're telling the truth, even if you probably are and this is just a bad play. VT = Vanilla Town | ||
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And we're all VTs in here. | ||
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On July 15 2013 05:42 Rainbows wrote: I take forever to do stuff cus phone at work. kirby if you're blue, claim now. Don't claim anything yet. We still have more than an hour and there is still analysis to be done. This is arguably the best time to scum hunt. | ||
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On July 15 2013 05:46 Hurricane Sponge wrote: I'd be on board for a gotard hammer if someone can make a good case that mafia are on this wagon pushing for a mislynch. You don't think that Mafia are on that wagon? From my position you are on the scummy wagon. I am reading Gotard again. I did not think that the cases against him were strong, but on the other hand Gotard's filter after 24 hours was horrible. The problem that I have with reading his more recent posts is that I am struggling to separate an alignment read from a personality read. I think Gotard could very well be scum, but I still think that Super is more likely. If you look at Chrom's defense of Super, almost every point was that it was bad play rather than scum play. When you make that many consecutive defenses and call them all bad play then alarm bells should be ringing. | ||
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On July 15 2013 05:59 Chromatically wrote: Why would this make you think that he's scum? Is your entire reasoning for him being scum that he's bad? No, I have made it clear why I think he is scum. Your entire reasoning for him being town is that he is bad. I do not buy it. The way that he writes makes him come across as a reasonable player. He has even made a couple of good posts recently, but he did not make them until he very much had to do so. If I could understand a reason for his early play that does not rely on him being bad then I would be willing to strongly reconsider my vote, but no matter how many times I go over it I just cannot get there. | ||
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Gotard is scummy. Stim is still at least in the top 5 of my scum list. Nightcat is a lurker who just randomly added his vote. Chrom is neutral at best. At best that wagon has 2 scummy, 2 neutral and 2 townie players on it. The other wagon has Umasi, who I think is townie. Xzavier who is neutral (too much lurking, his posts are not good enough to make up for that that much lurking) and Koshi. Some other people have been calling Koshi scum recently, but I have him as neutral. | ||
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On July 15 2013 07:20 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Because he believes very strongly in his read. This is the towniest thing since Lord Patrick Townington went to townville. He doesn't have a self-preservation instinct because he's town, and not under suspicion. He can throw himself around with abandon like this because he has mental freedom scum does not possess. Attacking Chrom will get you nowhere with me. Focus on the subjects. Chrom's whole defense of Super was that town should put self-preservation first. | ||
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Perhaps not Chrom's whole defense of Super, but a big part of it. Either way, Chrom does have self-preservation instinct. | ||
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On July 15 2013 07:30 Chromatically wrote: You're not this bad. You were calling Super scum for wanting to stay alive. I am saying that that's not scummy. It's even in a guide posted at the top of the forum. I could probably find 3 guides that say the opposite, and you could probably find yet another 3 to back up your point. Not to mention that the guide you posted was not about self-preservation. And you know full well that I was not calling Super scum because he wanted to stay alive. I am calling Super scum because staying alive was more important to him than scum-hunting. There is a big difference. | ||
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On July 15 2013 07:42 Hurricane Sponge wrote: To the rest of y'all, is there anyone else that is okay with lynching either target tonight? I know you may lean one way or another, but to avoid mafia deadline shenanigans that may lead to a No Lynch (or mislynch) day, this would work better with one more person. I do not want a no lynch to happen. Also, I do not think that I am a player who is ever entrenched in a position. | ||
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On July 15 2013 08:02 Rainbows wrote: Literally we could lynch either guy and mafiandoesnt seem to give two shits. How do you know that? | ||
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On July 15 2013 08:10 Koshi wrote: NO. NO. NO. We want a Super claim. NOT A KIRBY CLAIM WTF? Why? | ||
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On July 15 2013 08:13 Koshi wrote: So you want scum to know if kirby is blue? How is this ever good? I don't want scum to know that anyone is blue. If someone is blue then that is their business. If they every choose to claim then that is their business. We have not even had any night actions take place yet, so there is no way to prove the claims anyway. We should not be asking anyone to claim. Why did you want Super to claim, but not Kirby? Why one person but not another? | ||
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Considering what happens if someone flips town hold more weight, although with 13 people still in the game even that is WIFOM. I suggest just asking yourselves: Of all the players we could possibly hope to lynch today, who is the most likely to flip scum? | ||
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On July 15 2013 08:40 Hurricane Sponge wrote: hz, you okay with this? I hate to break your heart. I find the Nightcat vote suspicious. Look at this from a scum point of view. If you, Umasi and Rainbows are town and one of the wagons is scum, then scum will not allow their man to be lynched. They would end day 1 a man down and the town would already have a strong core with reason to believe that each other are town. Based on the game setup that is too hard of a position for scum to win from. Therefore, I still think that you are on the wrong wagon. On the other hand, if one or more of you (Sponge, Umasi or Rainbows) are scum then we have more scum control the the lynch that than we would like, so I think that you are on the wrong wagon. I think that there is more chance of Super flipping scum than Kirby. | ||
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On July 15 2013 08:50 Nightcat99 wrote: lol hzflank my vote is not suspicious because they dont need my vote for a switch. regardless who i vote they still have 3 people to lynch either kirby or super, my vote is just away to prove my innocents and that i am mobile and active now. I admit, I should of thought of that. Still, it's only true so long as Super adds the hammer vote. he probably would, but it is not guaranteed. | ||
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I would like to see Onegu's opinion on the events of day 1, once he has caught up. I cannot really do much more tonight. Not only is it 2 am and I am tired, but it is really really really hot (yes, even at 2 am) and as a Brit I cannot think straight in this heat. | ||
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Chrom and Super are not both scum. That's the only really solid association that I see. Chrom started to heavily defend Super 8 hours before the lynch, and that would never of happened if they were both scum. So to the people who are already making that association I suggest that you think along other lines. I do not like that whole council thing. It made it too easy to sheep. It was too early in the game for players to have such solid town reads on each other. I almost feel like people tried to put a reverse-sheep on me where I was told I that I should not move my vote (I will vote as I think best, I do not need other people to give me reasons to vote). First order of business is to be a play by play on the council thing. | ||
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On July 15 2013 23:46 Nightcat99 wrote: I just woke up but i have a question i been thinking about. Regardless that there is a mislynch, do you think the scum will kill one of the tribunal tonight to ensure that theres less voting power tonight, and if none of them die tonight does that make a the tribunal suspicious? I suggest that we think of everyone as individuals and not units/teams. If we think of those 3 players as a team when they are not confirmed town then we risk giving the scum too much control over the game. | ||
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On July 16 2013 00:09 Onegu wrote: If you want to look at the "tribunal" have a gander at where it started. If he is NK Ill eat my tablet and post the pics. Actually I think it may have started when Rainbows makes his case against Gotard, as I will show shortly. | ||
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On July 16 2013 01:14 Onegu wrote: How come I got crushed for this but he hardly gets any heat? I have noted that in the wall of text that I am preparing. He will get heat for it later. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Rainbows thinks that Gotard is scum. Koshi wants to lynch Super. Sponge thinks that Super is lurking. Koshi says that he is going to sheep as he has no targets to lynch (contradicts Koshi's earlier post about lynching Super?). Rainbows still wants to lynch Gotard. Sponge thinks that Gotard is scum. Sponge thinks that Super is scum. Super thinks that Kirby might be 3P. Umasi votes for Super. Super thinks that hzflank and Xzavier are scum. Hzflank thinks Gotard is scummy. Umasi thinks that Xzav is town. Hzflank thinks that Super is scum. Chrom thinks that Umasi is town. Chrom thinks that Kirby and Xzavier are scum. Umasi thinks that Super is scum. Chrom makes case on Kirby. Umasi thinks that Super is scum, Kirby second scum. Sponge thinks that Kirby is scum. Hzflank makes case against Super. Chrom begins to defend Super. Koshi votes for Super. Umasi thinks that Super is scum. Umasi does not think Gotard should be lynched today. Hzflank thinks Kirby is scum, but less chance than Super. Rainbows thinks Gotard is scum. Umasi wants the wagons to be between Kirby and Super. Sponge thinks that Kirby, Super and Gotard all look scummy. Koshi thinks the same, but Super most scum. Xzavier thinks that Super is scum. Koshi defends Kirby. Gotatd votes for Kirby. Umasi says that he is willing to switch his vote to Kirby (worded a lot like he is going to switch his vote once Kirby comes back?) Koshi is the first to mention consolidating votes, says that both Super and Kirby are perfect targets (perfect targets?!). Koshi repeats that we should pick one of those 2 targets. Koshi thinks that Super is more likely scum. Kirby thinks Gotard is scum. Kirby thinks Xzavier is scum. Stim thinks that Koshi is scum. Rainbows thinks Gotard is scum but unvotes him as he thinks that Super is the better lynch. Koshi wants people to switch their votes to Super. Umasi is unsure of whether he wants to lynch Super or Kirby. Super thinks that Kirby is town. Rainbows thinks that Super is scum. Xzavier votes for Super. Rainbows does not care which of Super and Kirby are lynched. Rainbows thinks that Gotard is scum, but is null on Kirby and Super. Stim thinks that Kirby is scum. Nightcat votes for Kirby. Current situation: Kirby looks like he will be lynched. Umasi considers switching his vote to Kirby. Xzavier is willing to switch his vote to secure a lynch. Rainbows thinks that Kirby is town, even though he is currently voting for him. Rainbows repeats that he thinks Kirby is town, and adds that he thinks Super might be town also. Umasi thinks Super is scum. Rainbows thinks that Kirby is town. Sponge unvotes Kirby, he thinks Kirby and Super are both scum but does not want anyone else putting the hammer vote on kirby (What?!). Rainbows says that he is going to vote for Super, putting Super in the lead. Sponge asks to work together with Umasi and Rainbows, as he thinks that together they control the lynch. Rainbows thinks that Super and Kirby should both be lynched on days 1 and 2. (Even though he thinks that they are both town?) Umasi and Rainbows have both agreed to work with Sponge. Umasi says that Super and Kirby are both acceptable lynch targets. Rainbows wants to lynch Gotard. Sponge wants to lynch Super. Nightcat vores for Super. At this point Super is likely to be lynched. Umasi wants Super to be lynched. Sponge wants Kirby to be lynched. Rainbows wants Kirby and Super to role claim. Umasi does not want to lynch Gotard. Sponge, Umasi, Rainbows and Nightcat all vote for Kirby. Kirby is lynched. Will do quick conclusion now with more in depth to follow: There was far too much sheeping. Half the town was completely willing to just sheep, and this started a long time before the deadline. Sponge basically controlled 4 votes in the end. There are some glaring inconsistencies that I need to question individuals about. Which will follow in an hour or so. | ||
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How did you get from Super being scummy to wanting to sheep because you have 'no targets that need to get lynched now'? On July 14 2013 02:42 Koshi wrote: Super scummy is putting words in my mouth. I don't like that. On July 14 2013 04:14 Koshi wrote: I would sheep. I have no targets that need to get lynched now. Why did Kirby and Super both look like perfect targets? What specifically made Kirby become a bad target when you later defended him? How did you get such a solid town-read on Sponge and Umasi that you were willing to just sheep them? You were so sure of your town reads that you even encouraged others to sheep them. On July 15 2013 00:10 Koshi wrote: Guys, we need to get our shit together if we want a lynch. Don't forget we need at least 7 people on 1 guy. Both look perfect targets, let's try to come to a consensus now so that the more inactive people can follow us if they pop in. I would say that Sponge and Umasi try to work this out and they give us final target? It seems that Chroma made the kirby case and that hzflank made the super case. Me, StiM and all others should FOLLOW lead. With more than seven hours until the deadline, why should everyone need to pick one of two targets? On July 15 2013 00:13 Koshi wrote: When you follow lead you should also give own reasoning obviously. But at this point we just need to pick one of these 2 targets. | ||
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These quotes are confusing. Over a 4 hour period your reads jump around all over the place. You start by sating that you think they are both scummy. You then say that you don't care who is lynched between the two (Kirby and Super) and then that they could be anything. You then think that they both might be town, before becoming stronger in your position that Kirby is town. On July 15 2013 03:28 Rainbows wrote: Both dudes on the block are scummy On July 15 2013 05:02 Rainbows wrote: My gut says super. On July 15 2013 05:13 Rainbows wrote: My votes on super but I really dont care who's lynched between the two. #Scummylogic On July 15 2013 05:20 Rainbows wrote: kirby and super could be anything. On July 15 2013 06:09 Rainbows wrote:dude i have no idea kirby. My gut actually says you're town LOL. On July 15 2013 06:12 Rainbows wrote: Kirbys list post corresponds so much with my own musings that hes likely town. maybe both of these guys are town. On July 15 2013 06:24 Rainbows wrote: Okay so here's my thing. Kirby is town. His list post and recent activity feels townie. Super might be scum. Lynch him. But I think both might be town here. If I'm right I believe Koshi/Gotard/plus one lurker are scumteam. Id love to explain but again, working atm. Im trying to shoot off what im thinking as we go but it sucks i cant quote here. Will probably be voting super again later. On July 15 2013 07:26 Rainbows wrote: Acceptable yes. Im really unsure of who to vote but super seems best imo. Both might be town. Why did you not care who was lynched (between Super and Kirby)? Why were you so willing to let Sponge control your vote when you seemed to strongly think that Kirby was town? | ||
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Would you mind answering these questions for me? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420227¤tpage=63#1260 | ||
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I can see that your mind was jumping around (the quotes I posted make that obvious), but my concern is that you did not care who gets lynched. My mind was jumping around too, and I was not willing to let a no lynch happen, but it was still important to me that we lynch the person who is most likely to flip scum. We were in different positions though as I had a wagon on my read, and we are probably both new to the majority vote system. I can see how you would do that from a town perspective. I just do not like it when people do not care who gets lynched (due to prior experience). | ||
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On July 16 2013 01:57 Hurricane Sponge wrote: I thought it was valuable for Town to control the lynch. I wanted to undermine the mafia's ability to switch votes at the last second. That's fine, but also very risky on day 1. I had town reads on Umasi and Rainbows too, but I did not trust them. It might be worth discussing how to avoid this in future. For example, perhaps we could ask everyone to lock in their votes an hour before deadline, and no one is allowed to change as long as there is a majority. If there is not a majority then it gives us say 45 minutes to discuss it, and then we lock in a lynch with 15 minutes to go. Thoughts? | ||
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I am not saying that Chrom is lying, just that for all I know he might of misinterpreted it. If Chrom's interpretation is accurate then I can see why it was edited. | ||
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On July 16 2013 05:23 Rainbows wrote: We're lynching Gotard tomorrow btw guise. Chrom, your case on me is bad. It boils down to me lynching the guy you wanted, and not really caring. Nobody wanted to lynch Gotard so I lynched the other dude. I can't really oppose the lynch when all I can do is watch and write little snippets from my phone at work. Wait until the deadline before posting any sort of big case, though. We do not want the scum to see our reactions to proposed day 2 lynches until after the night actions are in. | ||
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On July 16 2013 05:33 Nightcat99 wrote: my edit post was something about i dont feel kirby was the best target and gg to him and hope to see him next game , dont remember exactly but nothing important Did you mention lynching Kirby day 2? | ||
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On July 16 2013 06:07 Nightcat99 wrote: To be honest through , i am super confused on how you guys get so much info on the first day I was like that in my first game too. Once you play a little more then you will understand. On July 16 2013 06:02 Nightcat99 wrote: i might have said i feel like he would be a better target for day 2 depending on how super turn out but because of the timing i was posting its really just meant to be a good bye post. Voting for Kirby to secure a lynch is understandable. It is not understandable to want to lynch Kirby day 2, if the only reason that you wanted to lynch him day 1 was to secure the lynch. | ||
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On July 16 2013 02:44 Koshi wrote: When I said Super scummy I am quoting somebody that said that I said that Umasi and Chroma are super scummy, as in really scummy. While I just replied to somebody asking my 2 fav lynches. That's still inconsistent with wanting to sheep. On July 16 2013 02:44 Koshi wrote: For the other thing I would like to refer to my previous post. You can see in my log that I wasn't really invested yet in this game. You can see that on page 2 of my filter 5 messages in that page I was still pretty not caring about this game. But after the defense of Superfluous by Chroma I got attached for some reason, I wanted to pressure Chroma and the result is the clusterfuck we had yesterday. So to put it simply: you went from thinking that Kirby was scum to thinking that he was town because Chrom defended Super. Okay, that's all I wanted to know for now, thanks. | ||
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On July 16 2013 07:20 Hurricane Sponge wrote: I'd like to hear people's thoughts on a matter regarding last night's Near-Lynch of Superfluous: Superfluous' vote stayed on Xzavier all day, even in the face of his own impending lynch. Any sane person looking to save themselves would have put that vote onto Kirby at some point late in the day, whether they were Town or Scum. I've tried to logic it out, but I can't come up with anything that seem plausible. Can anyone come up with reasons for Town and / or for Scum to behave like this? Nope. Unless he knew for sure that they were both town, which is impossible. I guess the most likely reason would be that he thought a no-lynch was best in the situation. I do not think that is completely alignment indicative, but it does line up with the feeling I am getting that it was town-town. Super himself has not actually posted since though. He has given me no reason to think that he is town, yet the rest of the thread has made it look more like town-town than town-scum. | ||
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I want to know if I can post freely for an hour, or if I should wait right until the end of the night. | ||
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General thoughts We need to stop the sheeping. People need to actually provide reasons for their votes. There is no way to get a good read on Alakaslam at this point. Super Super has not posted anything to make me change my read on him. The problem that I have with Super being scum is that the day 1 lynch seemed more like town-town than town-scum. There was a great deal of sheeping that began long before the deadline. The fact that Super and Kirby did not attack each other was odd, given the circumstances. I see poor value in continuing to push Super regarding his play in the early part of day 1. Therefore, I hope to see him post more during day 2 and hopefully someone can engage him and produce fresh information. Scum until proven more innocent. Gotard Scum after 24 hours. Started to make a few better posts but then became a lurker. Finally gave us one scum read, but has not pushed it. Needs to be pressured on day 2, at the very least. Must not be allowed to lurk to avoid being lynched. Nightcat Needs to give us some reads with original reasoning. It is his first game so we can let him off for not doing that on day 1, but he cannot be allowed to just sheep forever. I did not like the fact that he thought that Kirby would be a better day 2 target. Rainbows His apathy about the day 1 lynch is understandable, but still alarming. He started the game very confident but suddenly lost his confidence, even though he was never put under any pressure. Chrom I cannot see a good scum motivation for his defence of Super. If he had started to defend his late then it could be scum association. But Chrom started defending Super at a point when scum just did not need to, regardless of Super's alignment. Ask yourself this: If Super is town, why would a scum-chrom of defended him so heavily? If Super is scum, why would a scum-chrom of started to defend him so early? Umasi Although there are some individual points that look scummy, there is just so much town in his filter. --- Wanted to post more but got distracted and out of time. If I die, pressure Super and Gotard on day 2. Dont let people keep sheeping. | ||
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On July 16 2013 09:06 Nightcat99 wrote: just curious if none of you guys on the tribunal die , does that make me less suspicious? Not really. Scum control the NK. It can be hard for town to read a lot into it. | ||
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We do not talk about things during the night phase that might help scum to better direct their kill, but we cannot deduce too much information from that kill. Day phase belongs to town, night phase belongs to scum. | ||
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I have 2 glasses of wine. You know that one of them is poisoned. I give one of the glasses to you. Which glass do you want to drink from? | ||
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You do not know which glass is poisoned, only that one of them is. I know which glass I poisoned and will let you choose which to drink. The one that I gave to you or the one that I kept for myself? | ||
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On July 16 2013 09:29 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Koshi looked scummy to a lot of people. I imagine some hero vig tried to make big plays. Rainbows also looked scummy to a lot of people. How do you know that the scum did not kill Koshi? | ||
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On July 16 2013 09:32 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Alright, Onegu. I guess I can start refuting your 'case' now. Where do you want me to begin? Right here: On July 16 2013 09:30 hzflank wrote: Rainbows also looked scummy to a lot of people. How do you know that the scum did not kill Koshi? | ||
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On July 16 2013 09:35 Onegu wrote: Its not likely because scum do not want to NK people that have a high chance to be lynched. Do you think that Koshi had a much higher chance of being lynched than Rainbows? I have Rainbows as more scummy as Koshi, as you can see in my pre day post (2 scum, 2 most scummy neutral, 2 most town). | ||
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On July 16 2013 09:42 Nightcat99 wrote: well as i stated before i think the scum would try to break up the tribunal if there is one thats form by 3 townie so i think rainbow was kill by scum, what i dont understand is why rainbow , because he seems to be the least active and is just following along with what you guys decide. It is completely WIFOM. We do not have enough information to know for sure which kill was made by whom. | ||
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On July 16 2013 09:43 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Hey, I could be wrong. But based on my reads, that's what I figured. I'm not obsessing over it, because I don't think that information is relevant, is it? Sure it's relevant. The first thing you thought was that Koshi was not killed by scum. It looks very much like you know who the scum killed. | ||
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On July 16 2013 09:55 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Onegu, I'm repeating this now so it will hopefully sink in by the time the lynch comes around. I believe it is currently the Mafia's plan to take your case and parlay it into a mislynch. Once I refute your case, please don't be overwhelmed by confirmation bias of random people coming out of the woodwork agreeing with you. They are likely scum. This has nothing to do with Onegu's case. We went over that earlier and came to a suitable conclusion (get votes in an hour early). This is about you knowing who the scum shot when you had no way to know that. | ||
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On July 16 2013 10:10 Hurricane Sponge wrote: I thought you were a better player, so the more reasonable explanation to me at this point is that you're the SK (omg you slipped because you knew it was SK and not vig after the kill) The setup information clearly shows that a Vig cannot shoot on night 1, and that scum only have 1 KP. I posted this immediately and either you did not read it or you are now lying. On July 16 2013 09:29 hzflank wrote: Vig cannot shoot night 1, read the setup info. I knew that it had to be an SK as soon as I saw the second kill because that is knowledge that is available to town. You knew which target the scum did not shoot because that is knowledge that is available to scum. Then you claim that I am scum and that I have been planning to lynch you all this time? On July 16 2013 09:53 Hurricane Sponge wrote: This is good. It looks like scum is taking Onegu's FoS and running with it. Going to dive hz's filter now. Even though we already had the conversation about Onegu's big problem with you. On July 16 2013 04:58 Hurricane Sponge wrote: This would be the ideal solution. I didn't see a majority at the time of the Tribunal's formation, so I decided to make a play to ensure there was a lynch. Your proposal is a better option. You know that you just slipped and you are now trying to deflect the pressure. First by calling me scum, and when my filter did not look scummy you moved on to Onegu. On July 16 2013 10:10 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Although it looks like Onegu is going to be in full tunnel mode despite the obvious flaws in his train-of-thought during the downtime. The problem that I face now is that I have a one-point case. You (Sponge) and me are going to end up repeating ourselves over and over. Therefore I ask: Does anyone else think that Sponge made a scumslip here? On July 16 2013 09:29 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Koshi looked scummy to a lot of people. I imagine some hero vig tried to make big plays. | ||
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On July 16 2013 10:46 Chromatically wrote: Anyway, these NKs don't make any sense at all, they were two highly likely mislynches for today. Scum + SK is Gotard+Nightcat+Xzavier with an outside chance of Super. Everyone else is really town (yes, including Onegu and Alaka). 10+2+1 or 9+3+1? If it is based off of C9++ then it could be either. For balance reasons, it probably depends on the number of good power roles that town has. | ||
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On July 16 2013 10:52 Alakaslam wrote: Very well. Can I disobey my own statement and ask a dumbass question? Would scum claim a RB or is that WIFOM? Sure they would. It's factional KP anyway. If they do not claim then the JK might think they are scum. On the other hand, that's only if he was RB by town JK. If he was RB by a scum RBer then Chrom is town. | ||
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On July 16 2013 10:56 Xzavier wrote: i fail to see the logic in the second half of that post Why on earth would scum RB one of their team? | ||
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On July 16 2013 10:57 Chromatically wrote: I would really like to hear from anyone who has scumreads on hz, Onegu, Umasi, Sponge, or Alaka. I have a hard time seeing any of them as scum. You did not believe than Sponge slipped then? | ||
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On July 16 2013 11:03 Chromatically wrote: No, not really. He's had a scumread on Koshi but not on Rainbows, so it makes sense for him to assume that scum killed Rainbows for him. I cannot push it any further. He wasn't close to my scum reads previous to that. I am re-reading his filter but I already know that it is not scummy. Therefore I will drop it for now, but look back at it after the next flip. | ||
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Onegu should be in the: No way in hell we are lynching him today category, but that does not make him likely town. | ||
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No offense Alaka, i like you, but when I try to get inside your head I end up needing paracetamol. | ||
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On July 16 2013 11:44 Chromatically wrote: The lie was the only scummy thing about him, and that was pretty easily explained by Stim just being Stim. Stop scumreading yourself anyway, it's weird. Solo-Scumming? | ||
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On July 17 2013 02:41 Hurricane Sponge wrote: I've publicly stated that I think the mafia's play was to run with the Onegu FoS which is what saved me from the NK. I'm willing to wait to see who piles on before I refute the case. Is gathering reads in this manner unacceptable? Did Onegu's night post really put you under so much pressure that you were worried of being lynched on day 2? You were not the only person that Onegu attacked during the night, so there was no reason to expect him to tunnel you on day 2. Also, I am not going to let you tell me who I can or cannot vote for on day 2, when you tried to tell me not to move my vote on day 1 while you were controlling 4 other votes. And you scum-slipped. ##Vote: Hurricane Sponge | ||
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On July 17 2013 02:59 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Haha, read his filter and tell me I had no way of knowing Onegu would pressure me. And you're going to learn something very valuable about claiming 'scum-slips' in endgame. But regardless, I'm leaning scum (or over-confident town) on you, and your vote has been acknowledged. As it happened I just read his filter before I posted that (I thought I spotted an inconsistency from Onegu, but I was wrong). It looked like he might pressure you, but not enough to force you to go into turtle mode. It certainly was not strong enough to make me think that scum would act on it in any way. | ||
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Koshi was your scum read, but he flipped town. Do you have a new scum read? | ||
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On July 17 2013 03:12 Hurricane Sponge wrote: hz thinks I'm scum because I was right about thinking Onegu would pressure me. That is not true. | ||
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On July 17 2013 03:57 Umasi wrote: my thoughts~ The point of the tribunal was two things: A, to ensure a lynch went down, but B (and this is the big one To hold people accountable for swapping off.I think that's what it was about, it held EVERYONE accountable by putting three people in the spotlight. Pretend Kirby was scum, and the three of us were like "Kirby is the one" so we put seven votes on him then last second, player X swaps off. Immediately he is who I focus for the second day. We made a big deal about ourselves hammering in the vote, but it also in turn locked the wagons in place. I disagree. Scum would never do that as you would get a no-lynch day 1 and then back to back scum lynches on days 2 and 3. Terrible move for scum. | ||
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I did not realize that people were even considering that scum would make such a move. | ||
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PR associations are extremely difficult when all we have are 3 VT flips, 1 RB claim and an unidentified SK. | ||
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I am in no way calling Chrom scum. In fact I think that he is town. | ||
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That was not a soft-claim. It's just that I have been reading certain parts of the thread very carefully. Lets drop this line of discussion, for now. | ||
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On July 17 2013 04:43 Chromatically wrote: SK might have been playing pro-town D1, he'll be more obvious over time. hz, why do you think that Sponge is scum? Sponge should not be able to avoid pressure by saying that anyone who pressure's him is scum. If anyone wants to pressure Sponge then that does not make them look scummy to me. It's early in the day and Sponge is the best place to leave my vote. I did not like that Sponge refused to defend Onegu's case, because it stopped conversation about it from flowing. I could of defended Onegu's case reasonably well, but Sponge refused to do it himself. | ||
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On July 17 2013 04:55 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Is reacting passively to pressure a scum-tell to you? No. I do think that you over-reacted to his pressure though. As I said, I could of defended his case, so I am sure that you could have. You do not seem passive, you seem flustered. Did you not mention reading between the lines? Go back and read from the start of page 77 up until this point (with a clear head). | ||
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On July 16 2013 02:44 Gotard wrote: As promised Koshi's case: Yeah he's bad so there is not much point to listen to him just ignore... all others should FOLLOW. Interesting. why would he want others to just follow? It's easy to hide as a scum if people are just following few leaders. And then trying to correct himself but it's still FOCUS ON THEM. Change in his activity level is really interesting as well. He started with "hello i'm bad" lurking type of player and became 2nd Umasi (no offence) and he of course explained it. Personally I didn't find that defense particularly scummy. So Koshi's reasons: + Show Spoiler + On July 15 2013 09:18 Koshi wrote: Chrom is becoming the target and not Super. I hope I have time to make a good case in the next 24hours. Because the defense of Chrom was UNHOLY. Even if Super flips town, the reasoning of Chrom was getting out of control. At this point I feel If super is scum than 100% Chrom is scum. If super is town, 50% Chrom is scum. Reasoning --> That defense, he must have known Super was town, because that defense made 0 sense. I am not talking about kirby here. I am talking 100% Chrom putting his neck out for a guy that was not better than kirby. On July 15 2013 11:22 Koshi wrote: Red lights in my head after this post. + Show Spoiler + On July 15 2013 03:25 Chromatically wrote: This is blatantly untrue. Super actually posts scumreads with reasoning. Kirby does not. Chrom defending super. MAJOR RED LIGHTS going off in my head. You can see that I started being really active in this lynch right after this post below. + Show Spoiler + On July 15 2013 05:31 Chromatically wrote: I have to rewrite this because my computer crashed, so I'm just going to c/p the parts that hz wrote (without the quotes from Super). Original case is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420227¤tpage=28#549 The Super Case This isn't scummy. I've already talked about this at length, but everyone's first priority is to stay alive. If there was suspicion on me, my first priority is to remove it. Ask yourself: what would you do if you walked into the thread and there was a case on you? You'd defend yourself. ? His reason makes sense. He didn't have time to do anything more than skim, so he called out someone he thought was lurking. Not particularly townie, but not at all scummy. This isn't scummy. Bad reads =/= scum, bad townies make bad reads all of the time. You say there's no town motivation, but there's really no scum motivation. Scum know that they won't get a mislynch on you, so they have no reason to scumread you. I didn't really understand what he was saying in that sentence. This isn't scummy. This is bad reasoning. Bad reasoning often comes from bad town. If anything, this is overzealous scumhunting. This, once again, isn't scummy. If I say that I want a scumread to post more, that does NOT mean that I'm planning on replying to them. All it means is that I want them to post their reads and reasoning more often. I'm probably NOT going to reply to them, most of the time, unless I have something in particular to say. I cannot understand why you think this is bad. Once again, bad logic =/= scum. Why would a scum player say that they were just giving reads in self defense? I'll admit that this is a decent point though. So almost all of hz's case is stuff that isn't scummy. When I look at Super's filter, I see someone who's at least trying to find scum and share their reads freely. This is way more than you can say for Kirby. So I am pushing Chrom now. I find his defense unholy and I want to see how far he wants to bring this defense. So I make a timeline that is not favoring superflous. But hey, this is why everybody has the superflous scumvibe. Look how Chrom counters this timeline. Chrom says I leave out all the reads Super makes on Xzavier and Hz + Show Spoiler + On July 15 2013 06:41 Chromatically wrote: I think it's misrepresenting Super's play to make it sound worse than it is. Now I admit that I don't really know why I was being the caps lock lunatic. But I looked up all the superflous posts that contained "reads" on Xzavier. I suggest you do the same. There are 3(?) total and 2 are quoted in this post. Look at the 5 reasons Chroms shakes out of his head. Read Xzav his log and he didn't do much but he made 1 big post, the post where he putted Superflous on top of his scumlist, but he talked about 3-4 people iirc. This post contained more than Super did, and on a moment Sponge knew this as well. I don't see why he forgot it during the lynch. + Show Spoiler + On July 15 2013 07:01 Chromatically wrote: You sure suddenly have very strong feelings about Super when he wasn't even a scumread not too long ago. There's no way you honestly believe that those are his only reasons. I control-F'd "Xzavier" in his filter and here's the reasons I found: 1) Xzav lurked before suddenly jumping on him 2) Xzav read him as scum 3) Xzav hasn't contributed 4) Xzav lurked and then sheeped thread sentiment by voting for him 5) Gut read I personally agree with points 3 and 4, that's why I don't like Xzav. I find it hard to believe that you honestly missed all of these posts. I want everybody to read super his log and READ what he says about xzavier. Then tell me why Chrom thinks Super is so special? Anyway, Chrom seems to be unaware that I am targetting him at this point. At this point I start to think that Super must be scum on top of the fact that Chrom is defending him without a good case, Chrom doesn't want to play this game with only 2 scums. Come on. How can Chrom blatantly ignore Kirby his case on Godart but find 5(!) reasons in the 2 quoted posts from superflous. + Show Spoiler + On July 15 2013 07:19 Chromatically wrote: Why are you suddenly defending Xzavier? We're discussing Super, not Xzavier. It doesn't even matter if his points are good (even though 3 and 4 are), it just matters that they exist and come from a town POV. Super has 7 posts about Xzav. Here are the two: On July 15 2013 21:42 Koshi wrote: Chrom said a lot of things that you could agree with, he made me look silly sometimes. But that doesn't mean he isn't scum. You have to look at some of the assumptions he made, the ignoring of the defense Kirby made, the ignoring of the case vs Godart that Kirby made. There is a post where Chroma defends Super by saying that survival is a townplay, and that is a town thing to do when somebody makes a case against you that you defend yourself. It was a really good post by Chroma. But why did Chroma ignore the BIG DEFENSE Kirby made on Chroma his post about Kirby. Chroma gave it not enough attention at all, and it was a really good defense. This is suspicious. There are really multiple things like this. Chroma makes good posts but ignores obvious things that someone like Chroma doesn't do on purpose. Seems weird to me that he takes aggressive stance like that after saying "others should FOLLOW lead" he's ignoring his own advice. But is it scummy or not? Problem is that his advice was scummy so playing against it was pro town but at the same time i don't see how his "all caps madness" was beneficial for town. So I see that like his trying to sheep Chromatically after bad lynch day one. Getting mad after misreading. Emotional plays like that indicates bad town to me. Unless he wants to fake being mad after I defended Stim. And the most important note : he can't spell my name. | ||
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On July 17 2013 05:42 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Full disclosure, if I had zero meta on Gotard, this lynch would be a no-brainer. But he let this happen to him in NMMXLII as a useless townie, too. That doesn't exonerate him, but it does tell us that sometimes bad play is just bad play. Do you want him at a LYLO though? Regardless of his alignment I doubt that he will be night-killed (assume that we have no Vig for now). How much time can we give him to become active? He has had time. Look at the players who are left in the game. Just by numbers there has to be a 50% chance of Gotard flipping scum. Combine that with the fact that he is too dangerous at the LYLO unless we can somehow get a good town read on him and have some idea of how he will vote. | ||
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On July 17 2013 05:53 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Has anyone supported Gotard as town at all in the thread? You'd think scumbuddies would have said something if he actually were mafia. The only person who I can recall ever defending Gotard was Umasi. There might be more that I missed, will see them at some point now that I am aware to look for them. | ||
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lol, if Super flips red then lynch Chrom! | ||
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On July 17 2013 08:59 Chromatically wrote: I actually can't believe I didn't notice this before, Gotard makes a case calling him bad town and then IMMEDIATELY after calls him scum. Blatant contradiction. It's the bad town thing that is really strange. He was making a case on him as though he thought that he was scum, then slips in that he is bad town instead, then goes back to calling him scum. | ||
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On July 15 2013 18:50 Gotard wrote: Hurricane ensured lynch that day. Everyone agreed that both of them are super scummy. I think leadership like that is useful when you need majority to lynch. On July 17 2013 07:27 Gotard wrote: Problem is that we couldn't move our votes freely because this tribunal thingy You did not seem to mind the tribunal thing yesterday. It sounds like your opinion on the tribunal has changed, is that correct? While answering that, remember: On July 16 2013 08:59 hzflank wrote: Dont let people keep sheeping. | ||
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On July 17 2013 09:21 Chromatically wrote: Anyway, his whole post feels really constructed and edited to me, do you agree? It's erratic, yet controlled at the same time. Nothing makes sense but it's not quite full Alakaslam. It's just wrong. | ||
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On July 17 2013 05:47 hzflank wrote: Regardless of his alignment I doubt that he will be night-killed The SK should be aiming for scum, right?  Seriously though, the best defence that I can make of Gotard is that he is good SK bait. How bad is that? | ||
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Out of interest, what do you think of Onegu? | ||
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On July 17 2013 09:44 Chromatically wrote: Why do you say erratic? His thought process seems to jump around in a strange way. He goes from looking for Super's pro town posts to finding out of place cop advice. Those two things do not belong together. He suddenly goes from talking about day 1 was not town-town to talking about Kirby's case against him. I do not even see how those two things are relevant to each other. It is like there are whole sentences that should be in his post but are missing. Nothing flows right (I am not talking about grammar, etc). | ||
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##Vote: Gotard | ||
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Endgame is the final mod post where one team wins. | ||
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I will throw in my thoughts in Sponge: I am uneasy about some things but I think that lynching Sponge today would be a really bad move. Sponge got himself stuck right into the middle of this game which is a town thing to do, and he has potential associations in all directions. I think Sponge's alignment will become much more obvious on day 3, where as there are some other people who I am even more uneasy about and I am not sure if I will get a better read on them in the near future. | ||
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On July 18 2013 03:27 Hurricane Sponge wrote: His vote on me was a play. He practically had to spell it out for me (by requesting I go back and read a specific page-set with a clear head). He was fake-supporting Onegu's pressure so scum wouldn't feel exposed when they tried to hop on. hz even says that Onegu's case is weak in another post. You spotted one of two of my simultaneous plays. Bonus points later if you spot the the more complicated one | ||
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Who is the most likely to flip red today? | ||
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Talk about not giving us much info. | ||
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On July 18 2013 04:55 Gotard wrote: He can only hope that people will think that day one was town-town lynch which is the case. How do you know that day 1 was town-town? | ||
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On July 18 2013 05:29 Hurricane Sponge wrote: We'll get Slam tomorrow if anyone has thoughts on my case. (assuming the game doesn't end tonight if Gotard is somehow a mislynch and the stupid SK kills a townie) We can think about who we pressure tomorrow after we see a flip. Lets just start by lynching scum today. The game cannot end yet due to night actions. Even if the town were to end up outnumbered by the scum, with the SK in the game almost anything could happen. Regardless, the ideal situation would be to lynch red today. | ||
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On July 18 2013 05:41 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Mislynch, successful scum NK, SK hits a townie. That's game over in some formats because the Mafia equal the Townies (3 to 3). There was a game on TL mafia very recently involving a Survivor (I think it was Wave of Shadow?) where the admin said that once the mafia equal the number of town, it's endgame: winner Mafia. Can we get a ruling for this game? Is it still game on if it's 3/3/1? Survivor doesnt have KP, SK does. 3/3/1. SK shoots scum, scum shoots SK (Vet). Then it is 3/2/1. There are many other examples of how it could play out. Even at 1/1/1 the SK and Scum could kill each other and town could win. | ||
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I know how to win as town at 3/3/1 with a survivor...but no need to show you that play since we do not have a survivor. | ||
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On July 18 2013 06:36 Chromatically wrote: I won't be here until after deadline, lynch Gotard and don't pull any shennanies. Okay guys, now is our chance, everyone vote for Chrom. | ||
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On July 18 2013 06:57 Hurricane Sponge wrote: I think it was a girl, actually. 'firere' or 'fferylt' or something, right? Makes sense. If you are going to give someone a ball and chain... | ||
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I have found something interesting, but it is almost wholly dependent on Super being town. On July 14 2013 06:27 Umasi wrote: I was going to respond, but fuck it! kirby, defend yourself plx and by that I mean bring up better lynch targets than Super, Gotard, and you or bring evidence against one of the other two! On July 14 2013 07:39 Umasi wrote: @ RAINBOWS You played in a game where Kirby got mislynched, what do you think of this? Do you think he's scummy or not? Are you still going to stick with Gotard when there are more compelling cases out there to be on? (At least, ones that I think are more compelling) On July 14 2013 07:51 Umasi wrote: that's not me letting him (Gotard) off the hook, that's me saying "superfluous or jrkirby" On July 15 2013 08:09 Umasi wrote: Like, at this point, I'm losing the motivation to talk about it (Gotard) at the time, because Superfluous and Kirby are just objectively scummier people. From his current posts, I don't think he's scummy enough to warrant a switch. I don't think he's too scummy at all, tbth He gives independent reasoning for his reads, and has good thought, he's just not posting very frequently On July 15 2013 08:33 Umasi wrote: WHISPER WHISPER Gotard, I do not think, is the best lynch Koshi has said some good stuff, said some absolutely shit stuff, and is absolutely going to be incompetent as we get later in the game. I still think this is not town-town. On July 15 2013 08:48 Umasi wrote: btw last minute vote swaps SUCK just throwing that out there. don't get any ideas aside from the two candidates we have, we can look at others later On July 16 2013 07:50 Umasi wrote: slightly scummy: Gotard, Night, Koshi, Gotard is only very slightly scummy though. Koshi and Night I'm a lot less sure on, Koshi has been around a lot and posted pretty erratically, and has done basically nothing to help town, but hasn't necessarily played like a scum would (imo) Night is just weird, fuck it, post more, lynch all lurkers etcetcetcetcetc (has done nothing blah blah) Preferred lynch: STILL SUPERFLUOUS He's done nothing to make me want to lynch him less, it was just a competition between Kirby and him, he's gone silent, I still think he's a better lynch, would like to pursue this as a lynch. I think I talked about everyone. Lynch order is Superfluous>Night>Koshi>Gotard unless something happens to change my mind. On July 17 2013 04:16 Umasi wrote: If neither of them post, I'll happily lynch Gotard or Superfluous, (Super slightly more) If one of them posts, well it obviously depends. | ||
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On July 18 2013 10:28 Umasi wrote: So you think I soft defended Gotard all game, is that the gist of what you're saying? Yes. At the very least, you were countering any attempts to wagon Gotard on day 1 long before we started to worry about ensuring a lynch. | ||
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On July 18 2013 11:01 Umasi wrote: Then why is it wholly dependent on Superfluous being town? Because you wanted to keep the wagons as Kirby vs Super, while your vote was on Super who you thought was more scummy. Although you voted for Super before I did, you did not give much reasoning and later sheeped my reasoning. You allowed Sponge to move your vote between Kirby and Super, but not onto Gotard. On July 18 2013 11:01 Umasi wrote: Honestly, I don't think that what I've done could be construed as trying to keep the wagons off of Gotard, since I still was happy to hop on Gotard when the time came. As soon as day 2 started you voted for Super with little reasoning. That was consistent with your previous position and Super had not given you any reason to think otherwise. But then after Chrom and Sponge voted for Gotard, you sheeped onboard using some of my reasoning. To be fair, it would have been hard to provide your own reasoning as there was not a great deal to go on. There is no individual point of inconsistency, but you did hold the position of 'lynch someone other that Gotard' for a long time and you did provide input to keep the wagons on other people, you did immediately drop your day 2 vote on the most sheepable target and then move it to Gotard once some of the stronger town personalities were having a hard look at him. | ||
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Please do try not to sheep though. Also, trust your judgement more on your scum reads. Voting for the wrong person does not make you bad, as long as you provide solid reasoning. | ||
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On July 18 2013 11:46 Umasi wrote: hz, what do you think of Superfluous now? His day 2 posts have been much better than his day 1 posts, and as you say his most recent one was the best. Since he has not posted as much as other people there is limited information to explore. I do not think anyone is going to forget about Super at this point, so the best thing to do is to try to engage Super and try to get more from him (I have been bad at engaging people so far, need to work on that). I do not think that Super is the scummiest player in the game at this point, but it's early in the phase and I have not fully digested the info from Gotard's flip yet (tired - brain not working). | ||
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On July 18 2013 13:55 Alakaslam wrote: I'm on page two and already a huge mood swing. I would call this null but for his atrocious spelling. Refuse autocorrect or something. I like to have fun, if I continue to be this poor in reads this may be my last few games of forum mafia. So... I'll go out with a bang or it won't last I'll get better thanks. Your a noob, that's why you are in a newbie game. Do not expect your reads to be good. That's like killing 10 marines with a banshee on your third every game of SC2...you need practice. Post your case on Nightcat anyway, even if the conclusion is not scum. | ||
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On July 18 2013 15:33 Alakaslam wrote: By the way, I did something stupid. Here are my reads: Super: people have made fair accusations of lurking in a way I don't like. Wouldn't facepalm if he gets lynched next day. Nightcat: very, very new. Save for later. Chrom: totes town. Don't sheep him. Hurricane: forming. He is making me lean town with this exchange. Onegu: totes town. He is bamcis, let him put the pressure on. Umasi: town. Anyone not on this list may or may not be scummy. They aren't prominent enough to come to mind, which is right where scum wants to be, and right where passive town usually wind up. When I finish this exchange with hurricane, I may have a full day at work after sleep and be unable to post until day. So I know this isn't ideal, but at least it is. Wish I wasn't such a fool. There are 9 players left in the game and it is the night phase. Why do you give 5 town reads, 1 weak scum read and then passively FoS the other 2 players? If there are things that you do not like about me then this is the time to explore them, as opposed to just giving your town reads. | ||
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On July 18 2013 13:40 Onegu wrote: Sorry posting from hospital, feeling bad but will be out later today. Im off nightcat now, he and gotard arent scum together look at there interactions with each other I doubt they would bus each other that hard. Totally down for a alakaslam lynch. Hurricane is only slightly scum to me and I will take my sights off him for a bit, still think he has alot of scummy posts though. So you think that Alaka is scum by process of elimination? You thought that Sponge and Nightcat were scum. Then Gotard flipped. You did not think that Gotard and Nightcat were scum together so you now think Nightcat is more town. Part of your case on Sponge was Scum-scum with Nightcat, so you think that Sponge is less scum now. Is that correct? Any other reasons why you think Alaka is scum? (get well soon :p ) | ||
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On July 19 2013 03:27 Superfluous wrote: I felt the exact same way, was gonna post same thing. Would you consider those not on this list scum reads through process of elimination? I am not sure if this was directed at Alaka or me, but I will answer anyway. I think it is likely that his scum reads are based on elimination, except possibly for his read on you (Super). With 9 players still in the game I do not like using process of elimination. Additionally, I am surprised that people are getting so many strong town reads. Even my strongest town reads could very well be scum at this point. On day 3, I might be able to actually confirm a town read or two, but I cannot at the moment so I am surprised that other people can. Perhaps what bothers me the most is that he lightly FoS' me during the night phase. Alakaslam has seen me play before and should know that that is completely pointless at this stage. If he actually thinks that I am scum then he should of hit me with a solid case. I like to defend solid cases against myself, as it gives me a chance to examine the person who is attacking me. I do not like it when someone calls me scummy without providing good reasons, because it makes it difficult for me to get a read on my attacker. @Alakaslam Why do you think I am scum? Why do you think Xzavier is scum? | ||
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What is your read on me and why? | ||
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Do you still think that Onegu is scum? If so, has your reasoning changed at all? If not, why not? I dont mind if you answer now or include it in your end of night post. | ||
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Can you elaborate on your read on Umasi at some point, please. From what I can see you had him go from town to scum mostly because he was not night-killed and stopped posting as much after day 1? Also because you did not expect town-Umasi to pressure you so much on day 2? Anything else? Also, you have been calling Xzavier scum since day 1. Can you make a fresh case on him? | ||
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On day 1, Umasi begins by focussing on Super and Nightcat, because they are lurking. He does not mention Gotard, although perhaps because Gotard had not yet posted at all. Umasi then votes for Super, until Chrom attacks Stim and then Umasi just follows Chrom onto Stim. Once people start to defend Stim and it looks like a wagon may not form, Umasi goes back onto Super. His reasoning seems to be that Super has very different reads to what he has. Umasi later just agrees with my reasons for lynching Super, and asks Rainbows to do the same. On July 14 2013 07:39 Umasi wrote: This this all of this. @ RAINBOWS You played in a game where Kirby got mislynched, what do you think of this? Do you think he's scummy or not? Are you still going to stick with Gotard when there are more compelling cases out there to be on? (At least, ones that I think are more compelling) Notice that he has happy for Rainbows to vote for Super or Kirby (because Chrom made a case on Kirby and Umasi is happy to sheep Chrom). However, Umasi seems to think that Rainbows should drop his case on Gotard and not try to push it any further. Then when I suggest that it does not yet have to be a two horse race, Umasi says that we should keep it between Kirby and Super. On July 14 2013 07:48 hzflank wrote: Let's not let Gotard off of the hook that easily. He still has not given us a firm scum read with reasoning behind it. On July 14 2013 07:51 Umasi wrote: that's not me letting him off the hook, that's me saying "superfluous or jrkirby" Umasi is not sure who he wants lynched, as long as the focus stays on Super and Kirby. On July 15 2013 04:02 Umasi wrote: hm~still not positive who I want dead more t.t (caught up now) Jrkirby, what do you think about the case on Superfluous? You've hardly mentioned him ever. Superfluous, same to you, what do you think about the case on Jrkirby? Please don't say something noncommittal like "oh third party probably herpaderp" We don't even know if there is a third party, I don't accept that as a read at this stage in the game On July 15 2013 04:04 Umasi wrote: Unfortunately I have no fucking clue what to make of Koshi, and it doesn't really matter atm because everyone falls behind Super and Kirby on the priority list maybe kinda scummy but I want to keep him around so he can spout phrases like that more often. On July 15 2013 07:37 Umasi wrote: Not finished reading, want to reply before I forget Yes, I accept that they are both absolutely acceptable lynch targets Ooh, I am totally wrong, Umasi is going to look at Gotard. I wonder if he will find Gotard scummy? On July 15 2013 07:54 Umasi wrote: so I'm going to go write a case on Gotard, I have no idea if it will return town or mafia I'm going to see what happens though, expect one soon. On July 15 2013 08:09 Umasi wrote: Not a very good list, doesn't explain much. I am not one to get angry over list posts, but whatever, some people hate it GUYS IT'S A LIST He jokes about xzav and I, presumably for wanting to lynch him early last game. He states he's confused, his scum reads don't think Stim is mafia, does not explain WHO his scum reads are, then goes along with the increasing consensus on StiM. These three posts, I really REALLY like these three posts by him. He's looking at the right things, even if he may or may not be correct (we have no idea if he was legitimately mad or just pretend flipping out) Like, at this point, I'm losing the motivation to talk about it at the time, because Superfluous and Kirby are just objectively scummier people. From his current posts, I don't think he's scummy enough to warrant a switch. I don't think he's too scummy at all, tbth He gives independent reasoning for his reads, and has good thought, he's just not posting very frequently Only 3 people should be moving their votes so that a third wagon is not possible? On July 15 2013 08:17 Umasi wrote: the tribunal is OUR GLORIOUS LEADER, Rainbows, and me Basically we will swap votes wherever to prevent no lynch shenaniganry. On July 15 2013 08:33 Umasi wrote: WHISPER WHISPER Gotard, I do not think, is the best lynch Koshi has said some good stuff, said some absolutely shit stuff, and is absolutely going to be incompetent as we get later in the game. I still think this is not town-town. On July 15 2013 08:48 Umasi wrote: btw last minute vote swaps SUCK just throwing that out there. don't get any ideas aside from the two candidates we have, we can look at others later Later, on day 2, Umasi immediately votesSuper without good reason. He only later votes for Gotard when the writing is on the wall. See my conversation with Umasi, starting here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420227¤tpage=97#1927 | ||
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Your read on me was not townie, you read me as holding back. That is because I was scum :p | ||
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You are fantastic at pushing your scum reads, but you get into tunnel mode very easily. I think you need to play a game as scum so that you get a feel for the things that scum is doing behind the scenes. | ||
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My motivation for attacking you at the start of D2 was because you knew scum shot Rainbows, therefore you might be the SK. I did not really back off until I thought that you were blue. | ||
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If I could of told him what to say D3 then I think I could of gotten him out of it, but he had no confidence to try himself so he just played league of legends. | ||
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On July 16 2013 10:07 Superfluous wrote: Ignore last comment, forgot role is revealed on death so we could just go off reads if they die prematurely. On July 16 2013 10:20 Superfluous wrote: I get the feeling you barely even know what you are saying. It's like you see when other people raise criticisms of me then copy them exactly. Also, it feels SO SCUMMY that you and Umasi are so quick to vote an hour into the day. Don't forget that after the jkirby lynch a decent amount of town said that they felt it was too easy and a town-town lynch, including rainbows who is dead and proved town. I'd also like to go back on what I said about umasi. Generally I feel it is a good, pro-town move to put pressure on people and get info from them. On day one he pushed me and jrkirby and it didn't work out. Now that's not the worst thing in the world, but then that he immediately goes back and puts pressure on me instead of forcing info/ reads from other people which is much more productive. It's fine that I'm his biggest scum read and he wants to vote for me, but why the rush to vote? It doesn't make him scum, but I don't feel he's clearly town anymore. On July 18 2013 07:37 Superfluous wrote: Hey guys sorry I've been missing, been sick the last few days and mafia hasn't really taken priority. Regardless I'm back and surprised that I am somehow not the main lynch target. I think Gotard is a good lynch and would like to honor kirby's last reads. That said I find it strange how no one is defending him too too much, though if he's maf it may just be that his teammates felt town would really push his lynch and they didn't want to defend him only for him to turn red. Other thoughts: Gut still says something's up with Xzavier, but with the revelation of sk it could be that and not necessarily maf. I agree with Onegu's case against Hurricane, though don't really have much to add to it. I realize it's kinda scummy to show up and just agree with the closest we have to proven but eh. I feel like Chroma has been playing completely differently day 2 than day 1. Now, maybe that's because he spent the first day defending me and had less to do today, but it feels weird how his main reason for defending me and calling me town was just to lynch kirby. Also keep in mind that while I think Maf killed Rainbows and not Koshi, Koshi WAS going really hard on Chroma for defending me. One line sticks out in my head, Koshi said that considering how hard Chroma was defending me it was almost as if he knew I was town. Something to keep in mind. I also feel like Umashi has done very little for town on day 2. Day 1 he was putting out pressure and trying to accomplish something, and it doesn't feel the same today. Now, he has ceded this roll to Onegu as he is pretty much confirmed yet hasn't done much himself. (Correct me if you feel I'm terribly wrong, this is just from skimming over and trying to post my thoughts before lynch). I also thought he was the obvious kill for mafia n1 if he was doing a good job of leading town. | ||
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No Miller, just a Framer. I disagree with you going by your gut. Your D1 read on me was luck imo, as there was no way to have a solid scum read on me that early. | ||
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