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So austin
On July 02 2013 03:14 austinmcc wrote:
bee tee dubs, I don't have the TARDIS. It's either winked out of existence when Kurumi died (doesn't transfer again once drained?) or kita has it.
I don't think that matters, and you may not trust me, but...it wouldn't even do anything for me if I had it, so there's no reason to hide that. It wouldn't stop a lynch or help me kill you guys tonight, so...there's no real reason to lie here.
I will assume everything kita said in his transcript with geript is true, since you haven't refuted it yet (except the "traitor" stuff, but you haven't refuted anything else).
This means that geript knew something about the TARDIS, and it means kita doesn't have the TARDIS.
Now, you said scum didn't get the TARDIS, so why would geript said scum aren't worrying about it? If scum didn't get the TARDIS, and kita just confessed he didn't have it, and nobody (even kita) knew what the "drained of energy" shit meant (i.e nobody other than Kurumi really thought it had no power at all forever), then surely you and geript would be worried a TOWNIE got it (the only other option), and the TARDIS was functioning, right?
If so, did geript lie to kita? Did kita alter the log?
Most importantly: Why didn't you mention any of that?
You mention that geript claimed kita was traitor and that wasn't reflected in the logs.
This seems like another "slip" from kita, who may have faked another stuff in the logs, something you should have noticed. You should have noticed geript claiming you guys weren't worried about the TARDIS when you actually would have.
Why something you should have noticed? Well, because you are spending all your time and effort trying to throw dirt on kita and show him as anti-town 3P so you can avoid getting lynched. Would this really be something you would miss? Specially something you would have noticed back in D3 (scum not getting the TARDIS, kita not getting the TARDIS, thus town getting the TARDIS, which I think would be something you wouldn't just forget like if it wasn't important).
Also there were more chances of scum getting it (2 scum vs 1 kita) back on D3. Geript might have used it and passed it onto you before dying.
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Oh another log. Bleh.
So we have 2 contradicting logs apparently. Kita claims he has no TARDIS, posts log "proving" it. austin claims he has no TARDIS, posts log "proving" it.
So who was TARDIS?
inb4 Xfire has it and is mindfucking everybody
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Hey austin...why don't you just link to your scum QT? 
...
...
Can austin put a link to his scum QT?
>_>
<_<
This shit is just getting too Machiavellian and confusing, *sigh*
I'm not made for this kind of "game", I just catch scum and not-town guys and make awesome roles/inventions.
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On July 02 2013 10:30 austinmcc wrote:
Oh whatever, you secretly love this stuff.
Not when I'm losing
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On July 02 2013 10:18 austinmcc wrote:
Games don't ALWAYS match flavor, but the weeping angels aren't really a ... neutral party. They're a major baddie of the series. They killed some important dudes. A game in which a weeping angel could achieve victory with the Doctor, or his buddies, does not seem correct from a flavor standpoint. Why pick that name when you could go with something else?
If that was the case, wouldn't kita just pick another name from DrWho trivia to tell us?
I mean, nobody except hosts know he's Weeping Angel, he could just have picked a "neutral" char and tell us that name..
Unless he just didn't give a fuck about researching DrWho history?
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On July 02 2013 11:13 austinmcc wrote:
Don't know.
If I were making up a name, it's not what I'd go with. So like...all I know is that if he's telling the truth, his role is a baddie in the series. But if he's lying...why pick that name? Moreover, he already claimed "Fallen Angel," so...either it's his real role name OR he made up a SECOND role name?
So I'm left with the simplest option being he didn't think when saying his rolename.
We were at a point in the game where I'd just claimed scum. I dunno about you guys, but I wasn't thinking clearly last night. He may have been super delighted that I claimed, that he was going to lynch me instead of himself, and slipped up.
He claimed "Fallen Angel" back in D2. Surely the shit is the same (or are Fallen Angels and Weeping Angels different shit in the show?)
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On July 02 2013 11:26 kitaman27 wrote:
As far as I know, Fallen Angel doesn't exist in the series...though I'm pretty sure it is a magic card :p
...so why did you claim Fallen Angel?
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Xfire, you think scum austin and scum kita would both fake those giant ass logs?
Like...I could understand one of them faking one log (while the other one is legit). But both fake? Dunno man that shit seems just too much work for scum if they will be 2v1 tomorrow (and if austin is lynched will 100% win).
If both of them were scum then couldn't austin just go AFK so he doens't post the "incriminating" shit against kita? He goes AFK, kita sweet talks us into lynching the confirmed scum, no one of us even thinks about the possibility of kita being anti-town 3P, scum win without a hitch.
Surely in that case scum have the game won...why go through the long ass process of faking like 100 posts from QTs?
It's likely kita is 3P, austin is scum, some of their QT logs are real, and maybe some are faked (or maybe one of them is completely fake I guess).
If kita is scum, then he faked that convo with geript. Therefore the "star shit" was an invention of his and didn't actually happen
If kita is anti-town 3P he could have still faked that convo, and the "star shit" could have still be an invention of his.
Therefore that "star shit", even if true (i.e it was fake), doesn't necessarily mean kita is 100% scum
...like whatever if we decide to lynch kita it's not like I care if he's scum or anti-town 3P
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Dunno about that "star shit" thing though.
It's an unknown factor I dunno if I should take into account to determine kita's alignment. I.e if he faked the convo because there was no way geript would know about that shit if the convo was real.
Hosts could have easily told geript the lover thing in the mason PM. I mean, they didn't tell Xata he was RBed....anything can happen.
Maybe it was some random shit regarding flavor. Maybe geript's role is kita's role lover or some shit I dunno.
Do these possibilities exist? Yes
Does the possibility it was fake and kita is scum or anti-town convo faker? Yes
....so which one do we believe? I honestly have little idea so I just decided to ignore that detail and put it as "unknown". I don't think we should wager the whole game on that thing....at least based on the above (that it could go either way).
If you want to kill kita still then fine go ahead, you have the votes.
I doubt he's scum with austin, but well if you want we can discuss that shit and try to figure it out.
But yeah, he might need town to die to win, which is my concern. We might try to figure that shit out instead (like with all the walls of text that have been flying around)
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On July 02 2013 12:27 Crossfire99 wrote:
I won't put anything past them gonzaw. I'm here to figure out what happened this game, so I'm gonna consider all the options even if it is remote.
Well, remember we have less than 24 hours (and I'll be home for just the last 3 hours before deadline or so). We need to figure this shit out fast if we won't both be active at the same time.
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Goddamit kita don't show those posts again, it makes me angry
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Well, it'll be nice to have an ACTUAL TOWNIE to bounce ideas off.
Like, I really get these 2 anti-town dudes want to kill each other so they may actually have useful contributions in that aspect (.....that just doesn't sound right)....but yeah having just a scum and a 3P to talk to is not the best situation to make a decision >_>
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You don't have the TARDIS by any chance do you?
Asking just in case lol
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Well, if you have it then both kita and austin were telling the truth, so it sheds some light into that situation
If you don't have it, it's possible one of them does and is lying. Most likely the guy wanting to fuck us up the most. That may help us decide who to lynch...maybe.
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He caught you good kita, there's no denying that
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I'm here
On July 02 2013 15:00 Crossfire99 wrote:
SK is similar but different. He needs to be the only survivor at the end and kill everyone. This means that he usually has some form of KP to help accomplish this. His mentality is similar to a survivor in that he wants to blend in early game when he is unsure about who is going to win, but is different in that once he sees one side starting to win, he wants to play against that side to keep the game close so he has an easier chance to achieve his win condition.
Well. I see 3 possibilities:
1)He wins with town
2)He wins with scum
3)He wins alone.
The "SK" means 3 (there's no difference between "SK" and "Survivor" other than that win condition above).
If he was indeed SK, I think it may just be too much.
Not only does he have to be the LAST MAN standing, he has to get the TARDIS, activate it, and all of this with just 1 KP every 2 cycles, and apparently not being bulletproof.
If he was bulletproof and was SK, then why would he side with scum on D3? Why would he even PM geript in the first place? If his and scum's plan went through (austin unvoting and voting BC for instance), then there would be 2 scum alive, like just 2 townies alive, and him. But on D4 he'd have no day vig, and he would have to vote with scum to lynch a townie. In that case scum would most likely kill the remaining townie to make it 2v1 with scum and SK kita. He would 100% lose right there.
Yes, maybe there would be other possibilities, but would he contact scum and "side" with them like that if he was SK?
The only explanation if he's SK would be if he wasn't bulletproof...
If he was bulletproof, why side with scum if he could just take a shot at night?
If he wasn't....then how the fuck is the game balanced?
...well, if he was bulletproof I guess he could side with scum if he thought all scum would get lynched in succession, and only townies would be remaining (if all scum die and game isn't over, town lynches kita 100%). He could have sided with scum to take down more townies before backstabbing scum at some point, maybe when his day vig is recharged or something...
....meh, this seems too much speculation in either way :/
The other possibility, the one I may be thinking of, is (2). He is a "traitor survivor", represents an anti-town faction, as austin said is shown in the OP, etc.
He sided with scum because obviously. He may have told geript he was traitor and then altered the QT log (because in practical terms he WOULD be a traitor if he wins with scum).
Still....for me a "balanced" role is either plain survivor or SK.
A Survivor with no factional KP, no bulletproof, that can win with either alignment
A SK with factional KP, bulletproof, that has to win alone.
If you have a SK without factional KP or being bulletproof, or if you have a survivor that can't win with either alignment....I get a weird feeling because it just doesn't ring true to me.
Also, speaking of the OP and shit...should we actually take everything the OP says as 100% truth?
I mean, countless of other games have scum's win condition as "you win when all town is dead" or "you win when you outnumber town", yet those games have SKs.
That alone proves those OPs "lied" (it should have said "you win when you are the last faction alive, along other people whose win conditions don't contradict yours" or something), yet those games exist and have SKs in them.
Why can't this game be similar? In both ways:
1)Even if the OP says "Church wins when all Town are dead", it doesn't mean there isn't a SK (because of what I said above)
2)If the OP says "Alliance wins when all Anti-Town are dead" it doesn't mean there is 100% an anti-town survivor or some shit. If the hosts had said "Alliance wins when there is no more Church" then people would have gotten suspicious if they see a 3P in the game, hosts put stuff like that in the OP to be vague enough, not to have a strict rule set that is followed mechanically with every single role and faction in the game, etc.
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*sigh* Well I don't know what to think really
My gut tells me to believe kita...because this shit is just too fucking complex if he's SK or pro-scum 3P
But...if he's pro-scum "traitor", then the stuff he did makes sense (side with scum as early as possible).
If he's actually traitor then I assume he did believe MZ/geript/austin/etc were scum; and if he's pro-scum traitor his actions up until the D2 Dandel shot don't really fit with him being pro-scum.
The thing is that I just can't really believe he would have to be SK/traitor AND get that shitty TARDIS to win. Either you are SK/traitor or you are survivor and have to get the TARDIS. It just doesn't make much sense in my head fusing those win conditions like that on a guy that has 1 KP every 2 cycles and is a lover.
If you make an SK that has to get the TARDIS NO MATTER WHAT he HAS to expose himself, like kita did on N1, and D2, etc. That puts attention on him. If he's SK then that role is very badly designed, you don't FORCE your player to have the spotlight on him if you mean for him to be the last man standing.
With traitor it doesn't make sense....because it doesn't make sense.
If he's traitor then all these things can happen:
1)Scum win very easily, kita doesn't have enough time to get TARDIS
2)Scum win very easily, kita already got the TARDIS via town or shit
3)Scum win very easily, they got the TARDIS very soon and they coordinated with kita so kita wouldn't have to worry about the TARDIS
kita WINS
4)Scum are struggling, kita doesn't have the TARDIS
5)Scum are struggling, kita already got TARDIS from some source
6)Scum are struggling, scum already have TARDIS they can coordinate with kita easily so he doesn't have to worry about TARDIS
7)Scum are losing badly, kita doesn't have the TARDIS
8)Scum are losing badly, kita already got TARDIS from some source
9)Scum are losing badly, scum already got TARDIS
Here's the thing I don't understand if this is the case: Either these are way imbalanced against kita, or they don't matter at all, or the whole TARDIS thing can very very easily be bypassed
1)In this case kita loses. He's a traitor. He might be the best traitor EVAH. But because of bad luck he didn't get the TARDIS, so he loses. Tought titties right? This scenario is completely unfair to kita who did play his win condition
2)Kita somehow fulfilled his TARDIS win-con, and scum are rolling. Kita had good luck and/or played good, he wins here. Nothing to say here other than...yeah he got lucky and or played very well for him to win like this
3)This means that if scum get the TARDIS early, not only scum face-roll the game, but they can just communicate with kita, either in-thread or via kita's mason (or other mason shit, like MZ's), and kita never has to worry about the TARDIS again? If so...why include the TARDIS shit in his win-con? kita has to play traitor and play for scum, and scum can just "win" the game for him by manipulating the TARDIS themselves? So kita has to do nothing at all regarding the TARDIS to fulfill that win condition? If so why even bother putting it in? Just make kita a normal traitor and that's it
4)Then in this case kita is fucked. He has to play pro-scum so scum can try to win this thing, but he ALSO has to do shit to get TARDIS. Shit might include exposing himself, making risky plays that would have otherwise be very bad if he wanted scum to win, etc.
This is just too much work to expect of a single player. He has to play for 1 alignment and try to win the game with them, and at the same time go for a scavenger hunt for some item that gets randomly distributed to players like half of the time. On top of that he's a lover
Why don't you just make kita a lover SK treestump without KP while you are at it?
5)Then nothing to see here, this just plays as if he was a normal traitor. But again, he needs some luck or very awesome plays to gain the TARDIS in that situation (and you don't balance a role assuming the guy will get lucky or pull of the plans of the century)
6)Same as (3) in the sense that the TARDIS shit then becomes the most pointless shit ever. kita would just 100% play as a traitor here and never worry about the TARDIS again. Seems like bad design to include this possibility
7)Then kita has basically 99% lost. He can do nothing to win, except pray. Even if he gets super lucky and gets the TARDIS, he would most likely neglect playing for scum (or die trying) and would lose. If he plays for scum and they make a super comeback and are set to win, he still doesn't have the TARDIS.
8)Well, he got lucky played well, but now he has to both try to survive and make scum win the game. This is either unfair to him or has no relevance
9)Same shit as before with (3) and (6)
I forgot to mention something:
Not only would traitor kita have to get the TARDIS, and win with scum, he would have to SURVIVE at the end of the game
Normal traitor roles don't need to survive to win with scum, they just need scum to win. That's why some traitor plans involve the traitor fake-claiming shit, creating chaos and then getting lynched. He doens't give a shit about dying as long as he can help scum.
But in this scenario kita would have to be ALIVE. That means he wouldn't have to get lynched, nor killed by townies, and nor killed by scum accidentally.
ALL THE WHILE HE HAS TO TRY AND GET THE TARDIS SOMEHOW WHILE IT GOES FROM HAND TO HAND, TOTALLY RANDOMLY AT TIMES?
How the hell could kita play a role like that?
I'm inclined to believe him for now. Well....at least not believe he's survivor traitor 3P who can only win if he has the TARDIS, scum win, and he's alive at the end of the game.
If he is SK then the other shit I said holds true as well. Not only does he have to be the LAST MAN STANDING, he has to get that fricking TARDIS EXPOSING HIMSELF and putting the spotlight onto him.
Why? Because if he doesn't then he can'd do shit to try and get the TARDIS. Here are the only other options:
1)Try to be pro-town enough for a townie to give it to you:
Well tough titties, scum just shot you at night because you are playing for town and you have no night protection
2)Try to just lay low like any SK and hope you randomly get the TARDIS at some point:
Well shorty bossoms. If scum get the TARDIS they will pass it along each other, then it will be randomly given to some guy and you have like 7% chance of getting it. Townies may pass it to other townies, and even if a townie with it is killed or something you (again) have like 7% chances of getting it. You just lose the game congrats
3)Use the mason ability with someone to try and manipulate him into giving you the TARDIS without all thread knowing:
Well gloomy buttocks, 2 cycles have passed and you are now a lover with that guy and you most likely lost as well. Also now that guy claimed in-thread you have the TARDIS and town will soon be looking for your head. Again, an unnecessary stuff kita has to do to obtain the TARDIS that might cost him the game as SK.
He also only has 1 KP every 2 cycles. If he's at 1v1 or 2v1 or some shit he can insta-lose if he goes into the off-cycle.
Also, guess what? He gets insta fucked if there's a massclaim on D1.
Yes, as soon as town mass-claim on D1, or any time basically, SK kita loses the game. Zepphird would claim he made role to char X, and either kita HAS to claim he's that char. If he doesn't maybe...maybe nobody notices it is him who has that role (if there are other people with unconfirmed roles for instance, or if scum lied about some, etc).
However, the moment he masons someone, the moment he gets role-checked (not even alignment-checked), the moment other roles are confirmed, he's toast. He just anonymously killed a bunch of people and is confirmed anti-town for doing so.
Had he had a factional SK KP nothing would happen, he could have any role in the world and not "get caught" as SK for claiming it, etc.
However:
Having to get the TARDIS and win with any alignment, does make sense.
There are plenty of roles like this in the past, where they are "survivors" with stuff or their sole win condition is getting a single stuff.
For instance, it's similar to the roles from Arkham Asylum and Arkham City, with the Joker, etc. Those roles only cared about surviving enough to kill specific guys or gain specific items. They wouldn't have to care about making a specific faction win (or making a specific faction lose), or wouldn't have to care about not dying when doing so, etc.
Another example is Gollum from LOTR Mafia:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264699¤tpage=129#2576
Like, not only is he bulletproof there, not only can he get a list or something of people who possibly have the ring, he wins as soon as he gets it (no "surviving until end-game" shit).
In this game (if kita is telling the truth) kita has no way of knowing who has the TARDIS, has no protection at night, and even if he gets the TARDIS he has to live until end-game (if he gets TARDIS and dies later, tough luck dude).
If you want me to think he is FORCED to make other factions lose (if he's scum-aligned he's forced to make town lose, if he's SK he's forced to make both factions lose) then I have to say "Bullshit".
....yeah I think we could just lynch austin today. I get the feeling that even if we lynch kita we'll fuck up tonight and lose anyways. Again, 50% chance, or even lower (if austin somehow has a working TARDIS)
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So yeah, after thinking it a little bit through based on that I think we should lynch austin instead, Xfire.
On top of the setup balance/talk shit, kita's actions seem..."weird" if he's SK or stuff like that.
Generally SKs are either super pro-town (but are bulletproof), or are lurky bastards (if they aren't....or even if they are). You don't see a SK and shit being the center of attention, making plans with TARDIS, then siding with other factions, then backstabbing those factions, etc.
If he's traitor as well his actions before Dandel was shot on D2 don't make much sense, he seemed convinced austin was scum and if he was traitor there would be no reason whatsoever to even make a case on him or shit like that. Although if he DOES have that role it would be difficult for him to DO ANYTHING so maybe he would take the risk with that I dunno.
Before that he went against MZ, geript, austin, almost outed ALL of them with his last-minute shot, and kept going against them. Seems sloppy play if you are traitor. Granted maybe his reads sucked and thought Sk8+Xfire+Snb was the scumteam and austin+geript+MZ were all town or some shit I dunno.
His actions after the D2 Dandel shot would make sense if he was traitor though.
If you shift some parts of the story I guess you could make a believable story about him being traitor with bad reads on D1 desperate to gain the TARDIS, then going against austin and CO later to avoid dying on D2, then after figuring out all scum fully playing for them.....but yeah you can do the same if he's SK and the same if he's pro-town 3P so I won't even bother
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On July 03 2013 03:42 Crossfire99 wrote:
Gonzaw, the only person's word that kita has to obtain the TARDIS at some point in the game in order to win is his. Maybe all his role pm told him is: The Doctor's TARDIS exists in this game and if you obtain it and hold it for half a cycle, you become a vet." I think we should take the TARDIS win condition with a grain of salt. The only thing we can look at is his play. Was he playing like a standard survivor or was he playing like an anti-town survivor?
It makes no sense for him as SK/traitor to claim in-thread to get the TARDIS and do stuff like that (even if he did it for the TARDIS protection, if he uses it to survive a shot it gets randomly distributed to someone else and he has no protection for the rest of the game most likely)
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The fact he shot solstice as soon as he claimed Doctor (or WOS claimed for him) which almost single-handily fucked scum, instead of like shooting me or BC or Acro, shows that he's not bullshitting with the TARDIS claim.
If he was traitor, fucking shoot me and let the lynch on solstice go through
If he was SK....then again shoot me or Acro, let town go crazy and shit, maybe misslynch more dudes, etc.
Instead he shot A GUY THAT WAS GETTING LYNCHED
That proves to me he is not SK.
Hell that could prove to me he's not traitor, since he wouldn't know the scumteam's plans by then (if he did he wouldn't have shot solstice to out the whole scumteam, scum would tell him "ehmm dude, why don't you shoot gonzaw or Acro or Xata and leave this D1 misslynch be, okay? Don't wanna get austin lynched".
I mean, unless the TARDIS is a super powerful shit that gives him 100 KP and makes him bulletproof or some shit I doubt kita would do that (if he DOESNT win with town). And if it does....then where is his 100 KP and bulletproof and shit?
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EPT
