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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
OK real talk you can't go and say "that's s post s newbie would make" and also be like "also he has been worthless" and also be like "but let's not lynch him' WoS is no Marvellosity but hes no kushm4sta either. there's a pretty obvious explanation to his post there: blatant attempt to buddy me and hide in the shadow of my analysis. his isn't a post that helps town or hunts scum. he's just trying to blend in. there's an easy solution to that. ##vote WoS | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On May 14 2013 02:59 HiroPro wrote: BH, do you actually believe that WaveofShadow is trying to blend in with his posts? Is there a reason that you haven't mentioned players like shirokami or prplhz? Obvious, point out exactly where I implied that mechanics are more important than behavioral analysis. I haven't made any such statement. Yeah in a sort of clever way I think he is. I'm going to mention something I did in The Game as scum, and before WoS cries "omg thats ur meta not mine" what i'm trying to point out here is that this is a viable scum move, not that WoS in particular has a meta of doing it. In The Game, I rolled scum. During Day 1, I make a scummy move by soft-defending Zarepath. My goal at the time was for him to get lynched, and for me to get town cred for defending him. I wanted to make it clear I was defending him but not actually derail the anti-Zarepath thread sentiment. I made this post to do that. Now, as I wrote the post I realized, "wow I'm pretty transparently scummy in this post, how do I fix that" and added a few lines to it: On March 17 2013 11:35 Blazinghand wrote: "oh bh are you soft defending zarepath" well admittedly yes, this is a soft defense. I don't have a townread on him. But he is playing recklessly and thoughtlessly, much like a poorly-thought-out town play. I can't let that lie. So basically, by straight-up admitting to doing something scummy, I made it appear not scummy for me to do so. I incorporate the natural objection any scumhunter would make to my soft defense into the post itself, naturally defusing that tension. Anyone who wants to say "Whoa, what is BH doing here? Why was he soft-defending zarepath, that's quite unlike him!" has been pre-emptively shut down by the fact that I straight-up admit to doing so. I don't actually give a reason why I do it, I don't actually have a justification or a defense for it-- but by saying "yes, I made this move" nobody can say "ah-ha! you made this move!" Taking a look at WoS's post we immediately see the same defusal of scummy behavior. And AGAIN, I'm not saying "oh this is BH's scum meta therefore WoS is scum", I'm just saying this is a classic scum move, I've used it, and I see it being used. On May 13 2013 15:15 WaveofShadow wrote: BH you and I are on seemingly exact wavelengths this game. Not sure what to make of that. I wasn't sure as to whether or not kita was town or scum but I know he was a good kill for mafia. DP not so much due to thread sentiment, but I do believe they were likely both scum NKs, no vig involved. Personally if scum were thinking like me I think they'd basically assume DP was town and that town KNEW he was town; and letting him get away as an active (assume-confirmed) townie is a no-no as scum. I'm not sure it was a good play as scum though since it essentially destroys any hope of them trying to secure the miller mislynch today, especially since there were definitely some townies who may have been on board for that, but DP is a valuable townie so we're at a loss for sure in the end. This is essentially why I was wondering whether it was a good idea to bother starting up conversation before the N0 NKs; it essentially assured the mafia that kita/DP would be good first kills due to their activity. It's probable that other strong townies will pop up as the game goes on but the two of them painted massive targets on their backs imo. Imagine he hadn't written that first line for a moment. You can be sure I'd instantly Dunk WoS for writing a post like this, which only reiterates what's already been said (especially by me) and agrees with it. He would be so dunked. In fact, if he had only written his first sentence, but not his second one, it's still almost certain I'd dunk on him. But take a look at his second sentence! Look at the doubt it plants in your heart. It makes him seem open and townie for a moment because it's like "oh, he's blandly sheeping BH but he's not sure what to make of that!" He's stating awareness of that fact, and thereby defusing the arguments against him. How much of my case against WoS seemed weak to you because of that second sentence? Now imagine you are WoS. OR rather, imagine you are in his position but are town instead of scum. You would DEFINITELY have an opinion on the fact that we are in agreement. If absolutely nothing else, if really nothing else at all, you'd try to interact with BH besides blandly sheeping him. You'd draw BH into a conversation and see if you agree on more things. You wouldn't ONLY rehash things BH has already said then be like "I guess we agree, not sure what to make of that" As town you are curious. you want to hunt scum. Simply agreeing with the best player in the game isn't good enough. To those of you out there who agreed with me on my nk analysis-- you didn't just think "herp derp I agree with BH" did you? You wanted more information. You wanted to interact with my thoughts to get a better read on me. You had a townie instinct-- and instinct WoS doesn't have. So, yes WoS was trying to blend in. He even wrote his post in a way that wouldn't spark more discussion with me. I'm just too sexy to be fooled by such things /Dunked | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
should have shot me when u hat thebchjqce nublet | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
i have seen prplhz be useful. Same with BM, in his own way. strong disgree with policy lynch of prplhz or BM mild categorical disagree with policy lynches in general | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
WoS for me is priority 1 and to be fair the day has just begun I can look more into OO who for me remains somewhat scum but this lynch on WoS is more important because... he is definitely scum | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
That being said, this tells me "worthless town" more than it tells me "scum" and if people read VA as scum they are doing it wrong. Scum doesn't use blatantly bad or wrong-headed analysis methods (necessarily). The fact that VA is trying to solve the game and work out who is scum based on the flips, as he said he would during N0, shows me he's at least trying to get something done. He has blatantly said he's not rereading filters and just reading the game as it develops. Is this a shit-bad way of playing? absolutely. But it's not a scummy way of playing. He's not trying to hide behind meanings, he's not trying to avoid taking stances, and although he's bad, he has the mindset of someone trying to work this game out. All this subject to change as the situation develops-- but I would not lynch him today. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On May 14 2013 05:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: BH let me get this straight; You want to lynch WoS for him straight up agreeing with you that scum killed DP, but not Vayne even when he did take a full 180 on flip analysis when you told him scum might have more than 1 KP? Almost! I want to lynch WoS for HOW he agreed with me that scum killed DP, and I want to not lynch vayne because HOW he did his 180 on flip analysis. Perhaps I didn't make this clear enough in my case: Whether someone buddies me, or whether someone disagrees with me, or whether someone derps or is wrong or is right, these are not how you catch scum. Scum can fake agreeing or disagreeing or being good or being bad as much as they want. A scum player could just bus all his buddies and pretend to be a master scumhunter, if all you look at is who he pushes and who he defends. I'm not saying this isn't useful information (since scum obviously don't want to bus) but this is only part of the picture. When you hunt scum, you need to pay attention to HOW people do things, and what they are thinking (or not thinking) when they do. WoS's post, imo, could not have come from a town mindset. I don't think he'd have written what he did the way he did if he really was town and was wondering why we were in agreement. Vayne, on the other hand, really just seems to be that wrongheaded, and although I don't think of him as captain mctown, i can see how from a town PoV Vayne has written what he has. This is how you hunt scum. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On February 13 2013 09:16 Blazinghand wrote: please stop, omg please stop you're being so helpful i'm being crushed by your helpfulness etc etc Clearly your goal is to paint me as scum rather than figure out if I am scum, because I literally make posts like this in every game. It's just what I do. I'm not saying the fact that I posted it makes me town, but it sure as hell don't make me scum. If you were really trying to get a meta read on me you'd know this. But that's not what you're doing. You're just trying to fling shit before you die. scum. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On May 14 2013 06:24 Vivax wrote: Telling your scumread to shut up and die isn't exactly the most productive way to head for a lynch BH. okay reasonable but look at what he posted! He's like "look at this, this is meta for BH being scum" and quoted a post I LITERALLY MAKE IN EVERY GAME. I do see how a town player could make a mistake like this, maybe he's just cornered and defensive. But really, what this says to me is that he's scum, and he's more interested in painting me as scum and defending himself than he is in hunting scum. If he was really town and thought he was getting mislynched, he wouldn't auto-think I was scum , he would evaluate evidence and a quote like that, which I make both as scum and as town, is not evidence I am scum. It's literally OMGUS. It's not an attempt to hunt scum, it's not an attempt to discern my alignment, it's an attempt to fling shit and try to cause collateral damage without giving up associative tells before he flips. I get that I'm a bit abrasive, but I'll tell you something else: I'm also right. and I calls em like I sees em /dunked | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On May 14 2013 06:30 Vivax wrote: BH, from 1 to 10, how sure are you WoS is scum 10 it's basically impossible he's town | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On May 14 2013 06:32 WaveofShadow wrote: I am neither cornered nor defensive. You will not be lynching me today.  You're STILL ignoring what I've asked you to look at you; you only pick out the part of my post that is easy for you to dump on. How is this town behvaiour? If you expect me not to try and turn it around on you, STOP ACTING LIKE SCUM. Rayn I think it's too early to lynch OO, he has decent potential and despite his trolly nature, he gets MUCH more useful later on in the game, much more so than prplhz. I'm a little surprised he hasn't done more yet but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. I'm not sure BH IS a better lynch; I'm trying to understand why he's acting this way but he refuses to acknowledge my questions of him and the fact that he is basing his entire read of me on one post---that is what makes him look scummy to me. I am certainly most comfortable with my vote on Oats right now due to his blatant flip on me without explanation. if you're not cornered or defensive how do you explain your lies about my meta? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On May 14 2013 06:35 WaveofShadow wrote: And BH you don't literally make it in every game. I wasn't going to go back into every single game of yours to look for that post; I looked into the games we have played in together and the only one you posted that in was The Game in which you were scum. You did not post it in LX, where you were DT. Lazy, fine. Grasping, maybe and I will admit it was a weak point. But you sure do seem to be the one getting all riled up about this, not me. Ah, the scumsplanation emerges I don't even need to point out how scummy WoS is at this point, just read this paragraph and the previous posts he's made attacking my sterling credibility for no reason and tell me he's town, I dare you in fact, I might even say WoS has /dunked himself | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On May 14 2013 06:36 Vivax wrote: I'll sheep you, but I'll stalk you if it turns out wrong. 10 is serious business. ##Vote WoS I appreciate your support and I understand that as the principle guy who has singlehandedly caught WoS, I'm on the hook if by same hideous miracle the man flips town (rofl) but that being said, I need a better explanation from you than what you've given here. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On May 14 2013 06:38 WaveofShadow wrote: Already did, bro. And I NEVER LIE. All I did was post something and ask if you recognized it. You ever wonder why waffling is considered scummy? Cause scum love to backtrack their statements when guys like me shoot spears of pure logic through their wispy posts | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On May 14 2013 06:39 Blazinghand wrote: I appreciate your support and I understand that as the principle guy who has singlehandedly caught WoS, I'm on the hook if by same hideous miracle the man flips town (rofl) but that being said, I need a better explanation from you than what you've given here. I'm about to step out, so let me make this clear for you Vivax when WoS flips scum, people will start saying "oh, who was scum with him?" and they're going to see you, who had zero interest in lynching him, voting him with no explanation at all after it's clear he's going to be lynched.If you're town you better man the hell up and analyze and stuff cause if you saw a guy doing what you are doing now, after the red flip you'd want to lynch him. You know this. Don't be that guy. Of course if you are scum I'm okay with you being that guy. Just saying man | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
I find it noteworthy that WoS's posts (at least at first) were trying to cause collateral damage rather than hunt scum. I believe it was Vivax(?) who pointed out that when WoS was close to death as town, he was accepting of it and tried to crank out as much analysis as he could. Where is that WoS, the town WoS? I admit that he has begun waffling on me instead of just blandly calling me scum, but I wouldn't count this as a legitimate point in his favor. I'm playing poorly, WoS? Everything I've done has been well-reasoned and thought out. If you think my thought process is flawed, that's fine-- show me where. If you think my prior assumptions or my observations are flawed, that's also fine-- show me where. As for statements that I'm being trolly and aggressive as I was in The Game as scum, I'm going to take a moment now to address those. First off, I am generally a wordy and much-posting aggressive player regardless of alignment. In The Game I used a lot of spam and insults to ruin the town atmosphere, and I understand that any aggression from me might be interpreted through that lens. That being said, aggression for me is a key method for how I hunt scum. Many players who have occupied observer QTs with me have noted that my ability to hunt scum from an Obs QT is really bad. Why is that? Well, a lot of how I play involves, yes, prodding people aggressively and gauging their responses. WoS responded to a push not with trying to figure out what's going on, or discern my alignment, and he definitely didn't respond until he was told to with trying to refine and post reads and help the town. He responded with OMGUS (that he backtracked when he realized it wasn't working), he responded with flames, he responded with general unhelpfulness and damage control for his potential associative tells. I'll admit, at the beginning of the push I was not 100% confident WoS was scum. Now? I am. /dunked | ||
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