EPTGonzaw, there's a chance we ruin each other's plans.
Boardwalk Empire Mafia: Pick Your Power
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Gonzaw, there's a chance we ruin each other's plans. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 03 2013 12:49 sinani206 wrote: does anyone have a link to that role tier list that someone posted a few months ago? I remembered something similar, went looking through the last PTP game but couldn't find it. Must have been somewhere else. | ||
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austinmcc
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austinmcc
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Late start. If you want to argue about the setup, please read the last PYP game like this before doing so. Same discussions. I think there is reasonable discussion there that we don't need to have again. If you're arguing about how we choose roles/numbers/whatever this game without reading that or referencing it, you're doing yourself a disservice, and you're spamming up the thread in a way that isn't helpful. This game is different in two major ways that I see. (1) Different role list. (2) Some players getting bonuses for picking a specific type of role. I like the ideas from the older PYP of denying certain strong mafia roles (Janitor is VERY powerful, think of how much damage a 12-hour delayed SINGLE flip caused in Personality 2. Now imagine a N1 janitor usage in a game full of PYP-ed KP roles, and 4-5 flips FOREVER hidden. No bueno). Multi-KP roles, Janitor, other roles are things that we NEED to deny as town. In this game "pick the best role for town" often equals "deny mafia their best role" because they will often be able to use a role super-optimally where town can't (town doc doesn't always save, mafia KP role always hits townies, stuff like that). Once we have a picking order, we SHOULD be assigning some roles, and I also like RNGing some roles so that scum can't 100% know what's left and what's not. Any scum receiving VT is FANTASTIC for us. Artanis, we can both block roles AND RNG. They did last game and it made some sense. Check the bit on how (1), (2), and (3) in that game were supposed to pick. seriously though, if you're going back and forth with someone(s) about whether we should do x or y, at the very least go read the last game. Especially Qatol's posts, which tended to be super sensible and concise. We want to plan for the best draft we can get. Reading their planning stages, and how it played out for them, should be part of our planning. | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 04 2013 23:17 Oatsmaster wrote: The difference between Personality 2 and this game was that personality 2 was a closed setup.. So out of reading that game Austin, What are your concise thoughts on what we need to do? The reason janitor is powerful has to do with what you saw in Personality 2 (if you can't just intuit how no-flipping N1 could be crazy good). Heck...Aperture 1 had a janitor use early when a bunch of people died iirc. Janitor + big game + lots of KP = big lack of information for town. It's a strong role, even though all it does is mess with information. The difference in setup does not make a role that mucks with flips a weak one. I think we need to pick numbers for now. Next phase is where plans can really be hatched. I like the idea of everyone taking a public stance as to 3 roles that they think are the strongest for mafia and should be denied, as well as specifically WHY they chose those. That is something we can do now, pre-order and pre-role-picking. This list is different from that list, and we may want to deny different things than they did in that game. It's not the biggest stance ever, but it forces each player to take a stance on what roles are pro-mafia, and so also has the effect of limiting someone's ability to later say that they chose x, used the power, but tried to do so in a pro-town way. We also can look through who is/isn't spamming, who actually has good/town-favored ideas, and start making reads. But hopefully you've already started doing that and it should go without saying. | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 04 2013 23:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Depends on if you want us to vote for him too or not. @Austin I don't have the time to read through that thread entirely, but from what I got out of it is that 3 people picked Janitor/CPR to ensure they had three people that could be held accountable for those actions? That sounds a bit excessive and I think we can get the same effect with less losses on blues from town's side. They had people set to pick Janitor/CPR, and marv to RNG between the two at the third spot. If the top players were town, those roles were denied. If they were scum and were planning on SAYING they picked those roles, but taking other powerful roles and having a scumbuddy at the bottom of the list pick up janitor/CPR on the sly, marv RNGing made that a less-desirable option. In order to really scheme and get powerful roles to people low on the list, scum would kind of need marv + one of the top two players to be scum, and that's something that would be hard to keep secret if low-list players use the powers or (1) or (2) die and dont' flip how they should. Basically, mafia has the benefit of planning their picking strategy way better than town does. They can say they're picking x, pick y, and let x fall to a scumbuddy way downt he list. Whereas town members way down the list probably don't pick "powerful" roles for fear they're already gone. Some denial + some RNG keeps scum from being able to plan as much as they want. | ||
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austinmcc
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(1) CPR doc - In mafia hands this is a multi-shot vig but without accountability (america = multi-shot nuker but has to publicly out self). Doubles mafia KP, but secretly. (2) Assassin - See above. Mafia knows all alignments, therefore this is a multi-shot vig without accountability. (3) Janitor - Information from flips good for town. Lack of that information for town bad. LOTS of KP roles in this game, good chance that some townies will be firing as well as mafia maybe getting extra KP, so there's the chance to hide multiple flips. (4) Role swapper/copy cat - These are dangerous only in that they can be used to get dangerous roles. Role swapper somewhat prevents town from denying mafia a role, but power still out of mafia hands for a night and the town role swapper then basically can DT check someone (if they've claimed, see if they're lying. If not, can you tell whether they've used their role, and in a townie/scummy way?). Copy cat another way to try and get a strong power passed down. Roles that I considered but dont' think are as strong as they look: (1) Hooker - Multi-shot vig without accountability. Stronger than the above because you CAN infect multiple targets. Weaker than the above because can be medic protected off. Also weaker than the above because, HOPEFULLY, if a townie knows he's going to die next cycle, he can be very vocal and is trustworthy/semi-confirmed-town (given that town hookers shouldn't be hooking willy-nilly, so we can assume he was targeted by a mafia hooker). | ||
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austinmcc
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Inventor was a consideration of mine, but the fact that you have to give your inventions to other players weakens it somewhat. Possible that mafia end up implicating themselves slightly if they're only giving inventions to each other, and each player can only receive inventions once. Plus all inventions have to be one-shot, and you can't re-invent the same thing. There are enough restrictions that it limits the ability for the role to cause serious damage. As to denying roles/RNGing later down the list, I think it's a good idea if we can get people to agree on a plan of denial. The fact that mafia has a single factional KP is very important, especially in a game where we could also have a lot of protective roles. They NEED roles to win this, town doesn't. Time favors town, especially in a game where people can be outed based on what they pick, how they use, detective checks, etc. etc. I don't like the idea of having someone too far down the list RNG. Mafia is going to want x role or y role. The further down the list the RNG happens, the higher the chance that: (1) multiple mafioso are above the RNGer, and can pull shennanies; (2) mafia can just risk the RNG, because the chance that RNG steals the role they want to preserve are lower (50% chance at pick 3 last game, 20% chance at pick 6). | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 04 2013 23:48 Oatsmaster wrote: Look deeper. The more people that come out saying "I think x, y, and z are mafia-favored roles," the higher the chance is later in the game that we catch someone using role x after admitting it was mafia-favored. They can't just say "Yeah I used my power but I didn't think it would be bad for town, don't lynch kk."How in the world does stating setup information help town? What? Thats saying why GF is a good role. WHAT IS THE POINT? Plus, if nothing else, we've already had confusion over the janitor role. Talking about it yielded an explanation of how it works, now everyone is on the same page. Maybe people aren't reading the role list closely. Maybe people don't understand why something is/isn't powerful. I also personally just find it more fruitful as a discussion topic than heavy heavy plan chatter, which we'll have to bring up again tomorrow once we actually have a picking order. | ||
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austinmcc
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It's a one-shot skip-a-day. It's pardoner but without the information from the day. Because of their limited KP, I don't think it' ALL that strong as it gives all DTs a second check, medics will still be active, etc. etc. I don't think the setup makes it stronger than a multi-vig, when their real concern is most likely to be lack of KP. I don't want to talk more about RNG right at this moment. Big game, want to see more discussion and thoughts from others before we go deeper with that. | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 05 2013 02:25 Keirathi wrote: I think you're reading Assassin wrong. AFAIK, a scum assassin can't say ##Kill austinmcc GREEN. Its either ##Kill: austinmcc ROLENAME, or ##Kill austinmcc RED. I think I read it wrong as well. | ||
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austinmcc
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Having people take KP roles and then lynching them if they ever hit town is sillypants. I have not seen any multi-shot vigis hit only scum. And vigis probably aren't even 50/50 across the board hitting scum with the first shot. So instead, what we get is someone who THINKS that they're going to do better than the average vigi, probably still hits town, and then we spend a lynch killing a townie who thought he could be an outlier. Even if you choose vigi and shoot scum then town, congrats. We are now supposed to lynch you and than means we lost 2 townies for one scum player AND had to use a lynch on you. Don't like town KP roles using it, because scum NEEDS extra KP flying around to win. Don't like planning for what happens if town KP roles use it, because they shouldn't be, except in corner cases where we have investigations we trust or something of that sort. | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 05 2013 23:10 Oatsmaster wrote: I am suggesting that town don't use KP. There will be corner cases - DT checks, possibly to keep any heavy lurkers we have out of the lynch discussion later on by shooting them a couple days in, etc.So you are suggesting town dont use KP right? The point of lynching dudes if they hit town, its a policy. POLICY. Its supposed to give really really bad odds for scum to claim vig/ get outed after they shot town. Also discourages town from using KP. Its optimal for town to not use their KP. Other than lynches But in general, I don't think town should be firing off KP because, imo, the more quick deaths the better for scum this game. A longer game in which people have roles, we have checks, we have confirmations of role uses and whatnot, is going to favor town. It simply gets more and more difficult to hide that you chose a mafia-favored role or used your role in a mafia-ish manner. So the longer the game goes, better for town, therefore the less KP thrown around, better for town. If someone really wants to hero it up with KP, there's the magical compulsive scum-only vigi in the game. There's the assassin. I think it's BETTER for town to take the normal KP roles and not use them, because of the above paragraph, but if the only thing you're going to do this game is grab a KP role, flop your e-peen on the table, and shoot scum, then use one of those two roles. That way you don't hit townies and we don't need to discuss policy lynching people who shoot townies. | ||
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austinmcc
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Given past results, I don't think a policy would stop behavior, and I don't think we'd follow through on the policy. We've already got a game with 5 scum and a couple players known for trolling, I don't see the upside of adding policy lynch targets to that mix balancing out the upside of people just not shooting. | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 05 2013 23:39 Oatsmaster wrote: It is not bad to have that policy, per se.Why is it bad to have a policy If you shoot town, AND WE KNOW. You get lynched? It was mentioned earlier that there was a ton of KP in themed and thats kinda how town lost, as well as in Personality. 5 people got nukes. 4 of them used them on TOWNIES. So I think its a really good policy and we should do it. The reason this is different, is cause its COMPLETELY obvious and also You have to be PROACTIVE to get policy lynched, not like lurky or whatever. It is unreasonable to assume that people will policy lynch folks instead of scumreads/lurkers/whatever. If you know of a game in which the playerbase actually policy lynched multiple folks based of some policy that they created in the game, let me know. Otherwise, consider that it is highly unlikely that "HAI GAIZ THIS IZ POLICY" will yield lynches according to that policy. I dislike the policy itself. It's goal is to keep town KP directed at scum. Which it doesn't do at all. Townies who think they might get mislynched if they shoot townies don't magically have better aim. In no way does the "policy" actually improve shots. Instead, what it does is encourage NOT SHOOTING, which we can do without policy lynching, because "don't shoot" is better than "the idea of shooting should be less good because we'll totally burn a day mislynching a townie if you shoot town." One says please don't be dumb. The other says, "Oh boy, you guys are gonna be dumb, and town as a whole is going to mislynch to punish that stupidity!" I'm more interested in hearing from Keirathi about this, actually. He proposed the lynches, and I'd like to know why he thinks this sounds like a good idea, and why he thinks it would actually work in a game. | ||
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austinmcc
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Having a policy isn't "bad." But I think this is actually not a good policy, and I think it's entirely unreasonable to expect people to policy lynch no matter what policy you propose. Let alone that you're trying to organize policy lynches, which I don't recall seeing ever work, in a game in which there are multiple roles that give extra votes/vote steals/end day early powers/multi-lynches/etc. etc. etc. You are attempting to control town in a manner that towns don't normally cooperate with, and in a game where you can't ensure control. That is another issue. | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 06 2013 00:02 Oatsmaster wrote: It is not that I, or we, don't get it. It is that you have unreasonable expecatations AND are overly complicating this. Go read the posts over. You are trying to do something that you cannot do (enforce policy lynches) in order to get people to do something they should be doing without a policy. For now, we should quit filling the thread.The Goal of the KILL DUDES WHO KILL TOWNIES POLICY LYNCH. Is to STOP dudes from using KP. The less KP there is, the better town is. This is the point of the policy. GEDDIT? That is not to say that Keirathi should not be filling the thread, for proposing this and then stepping back. You have made your thoughts clear, Keirathi has not. | ||
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austinmcc
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*note: There is a new rule in place. In the event that your first AND second numbers clash with another player you both go straight to the bottom of the order. So if 3 players picked [4][1], [4][1] and [4][7] the 2 players with [4][1] are bumped below the player that picked [4][7] along with the original bump. All in All the most unique number combination gets priority. Therefore, not everyone has to be 8s in there. You could have multiple people picking [9] to [20] as a first number, but different second numbers, and then the last folks picking the exact same two numbers. That way, the [9] to [20] pickers would be behind the [8] pickers, but in front of people who picked the exact same two numbers. | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 06 2013 03:39 Restraining Order wrote: I think we're gonna need a bigger rope.And I would lynch all of those people. And I would lynch all of those people. | ||
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austinmcc
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Scum picked [1][1] last game in a similar manner. Therefore, town will be watching for that and it won't work again Mafia know town will be watching, so maybe it will work because they'll assume mafia won't try it again The pick just leads to that loop, even if he said he'd grab [1][1] pre-game. It's null. Only two things stand out about him if you don't use the [1][1]. This post: On April 05 2013 14:38 Sn0_Man wrote: Was there a consensus as to what I was picking first? No i'm not doing a silly "deny" pick like janitor. I'm not really in any hurry to share my pick but if we came to a solid consensus I'll pick it. This thread is a lot longer than I expected during the draft phase though  . I cant say I'm experienced with PYPs but I was under the impression that vigs still shoot their scumreads no? and something that is sooper secret. That post blows if it's from town because: (1) He deliberately avoids any discussion of the denial picks, not "tell me again why I should deny," not "I don't really want to deny," but just "I'm not doing a silly denial." I don't like the way he announces he's not going to participate in what is, as far as I can tell, a very pro-town thing to do with high picks. (2) Is similar. Instead of discussing any of the KP stuff, which was overdiscussed, I'll admit, he just drops that line. It adds NOTHING to the KP/vigi/policy conversation, except this half-ass remark when there have been legitimate reasons given why vigis shouldn't just be popping caps in every scumread they have. It's not a shooting down of discussion, it's not participating in the discussion when it is ongoing, then dropping a thought that is absolutely not helpful AT ALL on the subject later. | ||
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On April 06 2013 04:22 gonzaw wrote: I've read your tags AND googled a number of phrases to see if you're roleplaying a particular character.Read my "Wisdom" tags austin. Scum have to always choose between risk and reward. WIFOM is a pattern for scum decision making that has set values for said risk/reward (risk: Town don't buy the WIFOM, reward: Town buy the WIFOM) However, there are more risks and rewards in this process that's not just pure WIFOM. For instance what I stated: Some scum picking [1,1] alongside scum Sno puts both of them lower in the list, "outs" the 2nd guy as scum since we'd now someone taking down a claimed [1,1] out of nowhere is scum. On top of that, the WIFOM bit can "fail" and people may still believe Sno is scum There is little reward in doing that, other than maybe creating more WIFOM in favor of Sno. The only other alternative for scum Sno is to lie and pick something else rather than [1,1]. That has less risks, although the "why did you lie from what you said in pre-game?" risk my be big enough for them not to try. I don't agree that it's awful for scum to double pick [1][1]. If nothing else, when one player flips, I know I personally would go "Well, there's no way that scumbuddies BOTH decided to pick [1][1], ensuring that 2/5 of their team fell to the back of the draft." That's the gut reaction I'd have, and I think what most people would have (See: Comments about "Well, gotta be a bunch of towns in these [8] pickers"). I'd be more willing to assume that scum were hoping sn0 would balk and not choose [1][1], or at the very most were saccing one pick. I don't know how you'd see both as scummy if one player flips and had picked [1][1], just based on the picks. | ||
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On April 06 2013 04:36 gonzaw wrote: Or it's a townie thinking, "Don't want to let this happen again, but I'm gonna look like a noob if I pick vig to shoot this guy and hit town." If someone claims he'll pick [1,1], and you are town, you won't clash with him unless you DON'T want that specific player at #1, sacrificing your chance at getting higher in the list. Why would you do this out of nowhere though? You wouldn't, you'd either discuss it, post in the thread about it (if you just don't care), or think that guy is scum and thus sacrifice your picking chance to do so Remember, townies get the chance to get THE ROLE OF THEIR DREAMS, and they always play alone, so they need a very very higher incentive to sacrifice their draft spot. Scum play with plans and get "community roles". They don't care if scum X gets a high spot if they can get scum Y to get a high spot. They don't care if scum X gets a specific role if they can get Y to get it. They play as a team, thus they wouldn't care about sacrificing their spots to take out a [1,1] guy. Town would ("sane" town at least  ).Therefore, if someone just picks [1,1] out of nowhere even if someone else claimed so to is likely scum, unless he does the stuff a townie would obviously do in that scenario (which didn't happen by the time the draft phase was over). I just don't see the [1][1] bit as anything. | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 06 2013 04:45 Keirathi wrote: I do think he has some points. I think you're worth watching, but more for non-caller reasons.Do you think he has a point? Do you think I am scum? This post: On April 05 2013 15:26 Keirathi wrote: Maybe an addendum: If you launch one, and you hit town, then you get lynched no questions asked. Still doesn't make me feel the happy-haps. I disagree with you when you say that you weren't the guy who suggest lynching folks who hit town. | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 06 2013 05:07 Keirathi wrote: In some ways it's a "If you give a mouse a cookie" scenario.And an aside: It was a policy to police ONE role (well maybe 2...depends on how Russia works). A role with which no townie SHOULD be shooting anyways. Why are you so adamantly against that? It doesn't make sense, unless you're posturing to protect yourself/someone who is planning to pick America. If you suggest lynching townies who shoot townies with nukes, then you kind of have to suggest lynching townies who shoot townies with dayvig powers. If you suggest lynching daynukers and dayvigs, you should probably also be lynching any night vigs who claim their shots and hit townies. You're suggesting, at the very least, lynching SOME vigis who hit townies, if not all. There are a boatload of posts from earlier on why I think that/that policy is a bad idea. MZ had some too. I'm fine saying "townies shouldn't be shooting." See those posts. I'm fine if decon or someone jokingly/seriously says "I'm taking KP roles and blasting someone in the face every day no matter what anyone says." Well, not fine, but I honestly wouldn't find that scummy. I find the half-position that I get from your post, that townies maybe shouldn't shoot, but maybe they should, except if they do and hit town they'll get lynched. You're implicitly saying, "Townies, you guys should shoot, but only hit scum, kkk." Which is unrealistic to expect, a poor plan for KP roles imo, and just generally not what I'd expect from you. | ||
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austinmcc
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VE, dawn hits. A genie appears in front of you and says you can have three wishes IF you answer the following questions. Which vet that doesn't care about pre-D1 is most like his townself? If RO gets teleported out of the game in the middle of D1, who would you lynch instead? Which ocean is best ocean? How do you answer the genie's questions? | ||
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On April 06 2013 10:15 Restraining Order wrote: Can you give me a reason why multiple mafioso would all pick the same starting number beyond mindfuckery?More and more people turned out to have picked 8, and more and more of them turned out to look mafia-ish. Suggesting that it's very possible mafia deliberatly picked people into 8. So i decided to scrap that idea and just not think about it anymore. | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 06 2013 10:19 Restraining Order wrote: Because "mindfuckery" is not the genesis of most mafia strategies. You seem to be suggesting that more than half the mafia team would pick [8] as a starting number. 2 seems low for what you're suggesting, or to be tossing out your thought that most of those players are town.Why go beyond mindfuckery? Mindfuckery is kind of what mafia do... If you're telling me a bunch of mafia all picked the same starting number, and all picked EIGHT, rather than [1]-[7] and being further up the multiple first pick list, then the ONLY reason I can come up with is mindfuckery, because otherwise it doesn't make any sense. And if it was mafia mindfuckery, they'd have brought it up. It doesn't do you much good to all pick [8] and then not go "HAI GAIZ BUNCHA EIGHTS, CAN'T BE MORE THAN ONE MAFIA IN THEM EIGHTS, NOPE NOPE NOPE." Now you're layering on the mindfuckery, and it's far more unlikely that such a play is happening than a bunch of people just picking [8]. So I don't think you can say it's mindfuckery. If it were, it's multiple levels deep, and that's not the right assumption. If you're town, you've tossed out the wrong assumption. | ||
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On April 06 2013 10:29 Restraining Order wrote: Are you a smurf or did you just start playing on TL in LX?The early picks are a place of spotlight. It absolutely makes sense to avoid it. 2-3 people picking 8 could be done under the assumption that few townies would also do so, making it likely for ~half the mafia-team to land in the middle of draft picks - high enough to get decent roles, low enough to avoid spotlight. It is kind of concerning you try to dismiss it so much. Must be because you also picked 8. | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 06 2013 10:54 raynpelikoneet wrote: I think he's providing a decent service to town for now, regardless of his alignment.I think you are being stupid without saying anything. Anyone know if RO is a smurf or new? | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 06 2013 11:03 raynpelikoneet wrote: I'll point it out postgame if you'd like. For now I'm not going to.Huh. How exactly is BM doing ANYTHING that helps town? Point it out to me. VE, genie questions! | ||
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On April 06 2013 13:28 Mocsta wrote: This part of mocsta's case/post on artanis is straight up wrong, no?What I find curious about the above, is when we start discussing Geript and you comment the below: I find this interchange ironic, as you flip flop regarding my alignment much to the same manner Geript does. Artanis identifies what his read was at multiple points, and WHY it changed. He does so vaguely, "the post you made," "your wishy-washy post," etc. but he still presents a read and how/why it changes over time. I don't see how "I think you're town, but you'd be null if this happened" is wishy-washy. | ||
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On April 07 2013 01:23 Restraining Order wrote: I wrote out an answer and then realized the real answer is "not much." Mostly marking it for later so I don't forget, and just bringing it up. I disagree with some of the reads being posted over the last day, but this bit of mocsta's post stuck out as being something that I disagreed with not just because I read someone differently, but because I think it's actively WRONG to paint Artanis's posts that way. At the time, was doing nothing more than pointing it out.What are you trying to achieve with this post? I guess | ||
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austinmcc
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If nobody lies, then everyone is out the 5 seconds it took them to write out what their numbers were again. If somebody lies, well then it's more than worth it. Based on what I saw in past PYP games, pick order and roles aren't all, but they help inform reads and later in the game help to "catch" folks who are outed just based on role/usage/setup/etc. If anyone is trying to find 5 scum based purely on the numbers, then yeah, it's a waste. But getting a full and definite list isn't bad for town. Scum doesn't gain anything from knowing who picked what number. Still [8][4] | ||
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On April 06 2013 05:10 Shelvocke wrote: VE isn't reading/is faking a contribution. This can be scummy, but at this point in the game there are A LOT of players who fit that criteria. The second bit, VE being...hypocritical because he often is ridiculous and is suggesting people not be ridiculous is just dumb. I'm often an idiot. I don't suggest other people are. Some players are confusing/lurky, they don't suggest that other people be confusing/lurky. Heck, the VE personality in Personality 2 just poked at VE's claiming, which, if anything, should reinforce the idea that VE might not recommend to others that they play how he has in certain past games.^Mafia He's either not reading the thread at all or he's trying to fake a contribution as the idea that he brings up is one that has been repeated by a bunch of other players and is crap anyway. Additionally, VisceraEyes is known for taking ridiculous shots himself and doing whatever he feels like as town so it's very out of character for him to suggest that these types of players should be auto-lynched. Half that two sentence read is just...badwrong. The other half is true of a number of players, with no reason given why VE is singled out. And ze vote? On April 07 2013 05:55 Shelvocke wrote: 24 hours later. Not important because he didn't vote earlier, he couldn't, but important because discussion of VE has popped up here and there throughout the thread during those 24 hours. Shelvocke, who has really only called out VE at this point (apart from asking gonzaw if his secret scumread was snb (which he now adds to)), doesn't seem to care about anything that's been posted about/by VE during those 24 hours. Note that he HAS followed up on snb, looks to have reread snb before making that post. But his vote post on VE has more meat, more indication that Shelvocke is scumhunting, when he brings up snb, not VE, who he is actually voting for.If VE isn't going to play, we kill him. He hasn't done anything to suggest that he is town and is avoiding discussing anything of value. ##Vote VisceraEyes strongandbig also looks very likely to be mafia. In particular the fact that he considered the number picking strategy to be extremely important but then failed to provide any original thoughts is very suspect. He also seemed very concerned in his pregame posts about roles but didn't provide any insight about them after the game started. Do not like. ##Vote: Shelvocke | ||
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On April 07 2013 11:29 yamato77 wrote: Anyone who doesn't want to kill Palmar is scum? Or anyone who disagrees that YOU want to kill Palmar is scum? I are confused.I wanna kill Palmar. ##Vote Palmar Anyone who disagrees with me is scum. | ||
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The only real thing I've seen brought up about Palmar is his post count being higher than in previous PYP games. That was an interested find, but so many have been throwaway complaint posts that I don't even know they count for anything. Why do you want him to be the D1 lynch? | ||
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On April 07 2013 12:15 yamato77 wrote: Things to look into before voting him on that basis!Does town Palmar try to look involved at all if he doesn't care about the game? Especially whether he was active in pre-games of past PYPs! | ||
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gonzaw, thoughts on shelvocke? | ||
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On April 08 2013 02:31 Vivax wrote: Not answering for decon. Your play has been delightfully less disruptive this game compared to the last few I've played with you as either alignment. I both want to keep it that way AND want to avoid as much as possible the recently-inevitable point at which you become a scumread for half the thread but never quite enough to lynch you and then discussion about lynching you clogs up real discussion every day. I'd rather put that off, especially when we have a number of other candidates today.Austin I'm not missing the point at all. Decon is a good boy, he can answer for himself thanks. Posts like this from you On April 08 2013 01:28 Vivax wrote: Deconduo I have a question. Since you have S & B as scumread, why did you look so skeptical towards my question? Would expect you to pop in and say: "Yeah I think he's totes scum too, vote him cause bsbsbsb, go read my case and shit, you're on the right track mate". Instead you didn't seem to happy about someone actually liking your own scumread, and even would have FOUND IT SCUMMY if I had been trying to start a bandwagon on him. What gives? show that you DID miss the point, at least what I pick up as the point of decon's post. It doesn't matter that he agrees with you on snb, and you know full well that sometimes, someone agreeing with you on a read but in a way you don't like may indicate that they are scum and your read is town and scum sees a good opportunity to move in on building a scumread/causing a mislynch. So the fact you both have snb as scummy shouldn't mean you don't get questioned at all. At least to some extent, you missed that bit, based on how I read your posts. | ||
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On April 08 2013 03:41 gonzaw wrote: Was waiting on your response, wanted to see if you picked up on something.I'm null on Shevlocke. I had found some stuff I found a little suspicious of him at first (like his first post I believe), and I guess some stuff others say makes sense about him (like how he pushed VE). But nothing convinces me for a D1 lynch. He hasn't been around for much either, which is not good for him, but it isn't good for me to get a better read on him either. Now I'd like you to return the favor, which is....you know....commenting on the gigantic case I made. I disagree with your ultimate setup discussion conclusion.
We are both wordy, but I don't see the complaints as much and I don't see the need for them to warrant much comment. At the END of your complaint section, I do like you mentioning "cramming all sorts of things into a single post." I have not known scum to do that, tbh, but I can't really fight your conclusion there because I don't have a ledger of all the crammed-together posts and whether they came from scum to town. I know that, when I'm town, I often try to avoid commenting on some things, try to push a few small lines of thought and not get tripped up, but that may be because of my inexperience and it might not be a normal scum thought process. Whatever. Still got nothing pointing me to scumtanis from your case. The geript case is poopy as I look back over it. It's either just not something I agree with or slightly scummy, but it's friggin pregame and early. You've also noted that you were watching artanis before he made this post. That makes it seem like you may be playing up the geript case as an indicator of scumtanis, because you were already scummy on artanis, and I dislike that. Just...I agree that artanis's geript case is not strong like ox, but I'm still not over to scummy on him (this is running commentary on just your case, if I'm taking each point and seeing how it sways me). The backing off point is the first thing that I can see in a scummy light. The weaker the case, the easier to back off, but yeah, he's put a lot of effort into this and he backs off with the not liking your posts comment. I've done that myself as town, when I start to realize a scumread is feeling more town, you've looked at these posts as scummy for a while and it's hard to undo that even once you find someone to be townie, but I can also see the scum point of view there. I will agree that it's a half-assed way to back off. ***EVERYONE IGNORING ARTANIS*** This is why I asked you about Shelvocke. You know who's been ignored? Shelvocke. You know who Meapak ALSO commented on, then I commented on and voted, but has had basically NO discussion today about him? Shelvocke. I wanted to see if you picked up on that, because I read your point here and immediately went "Agree that this can indicate scum" and then "Oh right, this also applies to Shelvocke." Overall, I like the ignoring point and think it CAN point towards scum. The backing off point is fine, and I think it CAN point to scum. Some of the points I'm meh on, and the RNG setup discussion in the beginning is something I find townie. If I just filter Artanis away from your specific points, I see a couple things: His aggression is all confined to like...an hour and a half of activity following his geript case/vote/post. He's gone for 11 hours or whatever, comes back, first thing he does is apparently re-read Geript, what has happened in relation to Geript in the meantime, and respond that he is reconsidering. I actually REALLY like that response. If Artanis is scum I don't see reason for the return to thread to be anything other than pushing a little more, creating a little more chaos, something, rather than just dropping your read. We're not even in the voting phase yet, there's no REAL reason to be changing your reads around if mafia, you're still just sort of dicking around, chatting in scum QT, whatever, and reading through your scumread's response to your stuff, changing your mind, and having that be the FIRST thing you do on return to the thread feels town to me. Thoughts on that? There is my response. I don't want to lynch Artanis. I DO want to chat a little more about Shelvocke, especially with regard to the lack of commentary/votes/whatnot on him and your finding that scummy about Artanis. | ||
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On April 08 2013 04:37 strongandbig wrote: It's insufficient but so are a number of the votes this game. The thing that I like least about the vote post is that heokay hey austin so i still think that post where shelvocke votes for VE is like super insufficient, apparently his case was "VE is usually rash with KP but he's telling people to be rash with KP therefore he must be scum"? he hasn't said much about much else except for a town read on ryan that doesn't make much sense but that's fine hmmmmm, how about this as a point: he's been around a decent amount and posted a decent amount, but his posting has been very narrowly focused and he hasn't said anything about anything except for his current "focus" - first his focus was "make a case on VE" for several posts, and then he changed over and his next several posts were focused on "have a town read on ryan" - seems kind of like a scum who is very carefully parceling out his "positions" and making sure to milk each of them for posts and attention without actually doing very much, or as someone said in red mini mafia, like he's scum trying to play a "clean" game? idk, something still feels weird about him to me (1) votes VE, because VE "isn't going to play" and "hasn't done anything to suggest that he is town" and (2) Says you look very likely to be mafia because you didn't provide thoughts on what seemed to be an important subject to you and had a dissonance between your pre-game/game posting. The vote post, in all honestly, feels like he has better reasons to be scummy on you, but is voting VE anyway, and it makes it feel like he's not really reading/thinking/scumhunting. His scumhunting turns you up, but he votes VE, who hasn't done anything to suggest that he is town. For reference: + Show Spoiler + On April 07 2013 05:55 Shelvocke wrote: If VE isn't going to play, we kill him. He hasn't done anything to suggest that he is town and is avoiding discussing anything of value. ##Vote VisceraEyes strongandbig also looks very likely to be mafia. In particular the fact that he considered the number picking strategy to be extremely important but then failed to provide any original thoughts is very suspect. He also seemed very concerned in his pregame posts about roles but didn't provide any insight about them after the game started. | ||
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On April 08 2013 04:41 gonzaw wrote: After Meapak posts on Shelvocke, here is a summary of talk about shelvocke.People HAVE been talking about Shevlocke. Meapak, you, and some others, ever since D1 started. Scum can "push" any pro-town setup plan they want if they know it will never be implemented. It's also about roles so if implementing that plan gives them enormous town cred why not do it? He didn't push it hard either so that's moot, he just proposed it, and mentioned it in passing in those "fluffy posts" here and there. I won't really comment on Artanis "backing off". It did feel a little off to me if he was scum, but I can't take that as sole evidence he's town or some shit. In MTG 2 Aperture did some stuff that made me back off my scum read on him (there was some stuff that made me and Prome go "Yeah this guy town", like him PMing us out of the game to tell us one of our jokes was funny or something like that) Scum are totally able to do stuff that makes it feel "off" they are scum. Reading his whole play though, it makes me think I should ignore that. I don't mind shevlocke being a lynch candidate or being discussed (hopefully he shows up and does something as well), but I have no reason to lynch him over Artanis today. I also wish someone vigs snoman and/or S&B tonight. This shit is getting ridiculous in terms of activity/caring about the game. I'd prefer sno man dying before S&B though, for reasons previously stated. I also want to know what Obvious concluded about Artanis when he checked his game history. He hasn't concluded anything yet
That's it. I add my thoughts. Meapak asks for comment once. Shelvocke responds to part of my post on him, but that's the sum total of his response to things. Keirathi and Mocsta speak WITH shelvocke about rayn, but aren't analysing shelvocke as a player and shelvocke is dealing with the rayn bits and then poofs away again. So no, gonzaw, and no anyone else who may think that there has been discussion on this. There has NOT been any discussion on Shelvocke. There were reads posted, votes made, and NOBODY commented. He didn't fully address the concerns. It FEELS like there's been discussion on him, but in actuality that entirely untrue and he deserves attention, deserves discussion [and deserves votes]. | ||
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On April 08 2013 05:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: You have had a lot of posts I've liked, and we have agreed on a couple things this game that make me feel good about you.@austin: you and gonzaw both bring up good points that certain people have cases made about them and then the thread seems to forget or gloss over them. Regardless of who gets lynched today, I think we really need to remember the other suspects from today and address them tomorrow because you're right, there has not been a lot of discussion about people who I feel are very good lynch options. But this post in particular feels weak. You earlier wanted to lynch artanis based on gonzaw's case, with shelvocke as a second choice based on your case and perhaps some of what I brought up. Now you go buddy-mode and say that there are good points being made about "people have cases made about them" that get forgotten, when the "people" at issue are your top and second lynch candidate allegedly. That seems...very uninvested in your reads? | ||
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On April 08 2013 05:16 gonzaw wrote: Not content atm, but not in a way that I think necessitates role usage in order to bring everyone to attention, which may or may not be what you're hinting at.Hmm, one quick question guys (please answer): Are you content with the way this D1 is going? As in, how discussion in general is going, how scumhunting is going, how pressure on players is going, how consolidation is going, etc? How players are part of thread/discussions, etc? I personally don't like it that much. I'd like follow-up on Shelvocke, especially in light of how you felt like there's been a lot of discussion on him when, in actuality, nobody had commented on him before Meapak and I asked about it, and nobody appears to have really looked him back over. | ||
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On April 08 2013 05:35 gonzaw wrote: I went back page by page for like 10, I don't terribly want to go back page by page for the first 60 of the game, but I don't believe this is true. austin, my main point is that Shevlocke was started to being talked about once D1 started. Yes, by the time I made my Artanis case people didn't really talk about him much, but nobody really did anything else other than wagon on S&B and argue with Vivax. I don't think my point on Artanis goes well with Shevlocke because of that. Remember the ONLY time someone called Artanis out was Mepaak and me back in the drafting picking phase basically (and maybe Mocsta when he was arguing with him about geripts case). So until one of us does that, we'll just disagree as to how much discussion there was on each of them. And I'm 100% certain that there was ZERO discussion of him today from the point that meapak and I posted on him until I started poking you about him. And while poking you, nobody else who has been entering the thread appears to really be looking at him either. If you're looking at flying under the radar, ta da! he is. If you're looking for questionable votes, lack of scumhunting in the posts he's made, bursts of activity in which he responds heavily to single discussions (rayn) and then disappears without engaging the thread as a whole, ta da! | ||
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When I asked you before, you claimed to be null. There were things that originally made you suspicious, according to you, and "some stuff others say makes sense about him," (which btw, was meapak/me saying he was scum). Based on that, you shouldn't just be null. He is a legitimate topic of discussion, he does not have a filter, and he is likely a smurf (I generally assume all new people from odd countries = smurves). That was NOT much of a response from you, tbh. And he's not getting any of the traction you seem to value. Drop your assumptions about how the thread has interacted with him or find those interactions, and then critically read his filter, his vote, and then give me more of your thoughts that "he's null except here are two things that were kind of scummy but apparently don't make me scum on him." | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:11 Restraining Order wrote: Pop open his filter. Look at the times that Shelvocke has interacted with thread.I still don't really understand how people can have a strong read on Shelvocke in either way. Like, everything he's said, and everything people said about him, just looks completely null to me. Is that the crux of the suspicion on him? Because I can see the concern if you look at it from that angle, but it's not a strong indicator in itself either, which is kind of ironic. He talks a little bit about plans, saying to pick what you want, saying that there are lots of roles and stuff that are good, so plans are bad. The plan to put townreads at the top of the pick order is "awful." Doesn't participate at all in the pregame except to just minorly crap on plans. Contrast with, say, Palmar. Palmar very clearly doesn't care about the pre-D1 stuff, whether he's town or scum. Shelvocke seems to care enough to respond and shoot down the occasional post, but he provides nothing that moves FORWARD beyond a very early post saying everyone should do what they want. He wants to talk to gonzaw. About what? The hidden gut scumread. Shelvocke suggests strongandbig, indicating that he is hoping gonzaw's gut read is snb, although that isn't definite. At this point, all we know is Shelvocke is interested in Gonzaw's read, and curious about snb for some unknown reason. Shelvocke finds VE mafia. Is familiar with VE's past play (indicates Shelvocke is a smurf and NOT a new player). Read his post calling VE mafia, do you agree with Shelvocke's reasoning? I still think it's not, because players who sometimes play dumb don't recommend that everyone else play dumb. VE isn't scummy for failing to suggest that people play poorly. Shelvocke then returns, ONE DAY later. 24 hours. He votes VE because VE isn't going to play and "hasn't done anything to suggest that he is town." In other words, Shelvocke has been gone a day. He has returned to thread. He is indicating that he has READ the thread, because he says VE isn't playing/hasn't done anything. But he fails to give any substantive comment on anything VE has said in the last 24 hours, or anything that anyone else has said about VE in the last 24 hours. Instead, he votes snb, noting that snb is "very likely to be mafia." He provides no posts to really show why he thinks snb is mafia, but states some things that can be legitimate concerns - pregame activity into lull during game being sometimes scummy. But he doesn't vote snb. He doesn't seek comment on snb. It's a throwaway read, not fully spelled out with reference to posts or anything specific, and it's basically MORE work than he has done towards VE. To repeat, he votes VE after being gone for 24 hours, but provides no real commentary on VE, and in the same post he provides semi-real commentary on snb, with no vote or anything. Look at his post. Does it make sense to vote VE over snb there if he had to throw a vote? He drops some minor comments. Familiar with PYP Insane, again suggesting a smurf. He asks for mafia games of rayn's. Engages mocsta and keirathi concerning rayn. It's a few posts, and then he's gone agian. That's his filter. It's not empty. It's full a couple things: He feels free to post - little bits, asking Gonzaw about his secret read, asking for old rayn games, etc. He's READING the thread, because he constantly pops in with bits and pieces. However, he hasn't done much as far as most of the action in the game is concerned. He shot down a few posts about plans. He has a scumread on VE (for reasons I don't like), but doesn't seem to comment on VE much except in general terms once he establishes that he's scummy on VE, and he calls snb scum while wanting to vote/lynch VE for not wanting to play/not doing anything to show he's town. One guy is scum. One guy hasn't done anything to show he's town. Who do you vote/lynch in that scenario if those are your two reads? That vote, that vote post, is OFF. It's wrong. Reading the thread but not commenting on much of use? Scummy, especially from someone who appears to be the smurf of at least a somewhat experienced player. Reading the thread but not really bringing specific posts to his points on VE, and especially on snb? Not townie, if he wants votes, if he wants people to vote his scumread, why isn't he really pushing or substantiating his cases? Voting VE for not showing he's town while saying snb is likely mafia? Yes, it's semantics and phrasing there, but to me it shows he's not actually invested in his read/vote, and it's just for show. Outside of his filter, there's the fact that NOBODY wants to comment on him. Lots of lots of dinky little comments about vivax, VE, palmar, etc. Almost no comments on shelvocke until people are FORCED to look at him. That CAN be an indicator that he's scum and his buddies don't want to comment on him, want to see the case blow over. They don't want to call him out as scummy if he's not gonna get pushed. They don't want to associate with him and call him town necessarily. The lack of commentary doesn't MAKE him scum, but it's something to look at and (again imo) it supports the idea that he is. | ||
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austinmcc
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On April 08 2013 07:31 gonzaw wrote: It's intentional. @austin: You are being kind of annoying right now dude. I've told you millions of times what I think of Shevlocke (why I'm indecisive on him). I'm waiting to see what he does, or what he doesn't do (the more he fails to drop by here). I won't instantly think he's scum just by rereading his filter again. And I read his filter. I still don't get what makes Shevlocke scummier than Artanis.....like..did I miss a scumslip or something >_> I mean, I get how someone can think of him as scum.....but I'm missing how Artanis looks better than him, and I'm missing that "he's definitely scum" way I feel about scum :/ I will say that the more Shevlocke fails to appear and contribute, the more I feel like I could shoot him as well. I'm torn between sno and shevlocke (although Shevlocke is more of a "yeah he could be scum, but I'm not sure if he should be a lynch (because of stuff explained before); maybe straight up killing him outside of lynch would be better"), leaning on sno. I've told you millions of times what I think of Shevlocke (why I'm indecisive on him) On April 08 2013 03:41 gonzaw wrote: Time #1, You're null on him, except you found some stuff to be suspicious of, and other people calling him out "makes sense." So you're null, or null leaning scum. But that's NOT a strong read, and it's not much of actual thoughts tbh.I'm null on Shevlocke. I had found some stuff I found a little suspicious of him at first (like his first post I believe), and I guess some stuff others say makes sense about him (like how he pushed VE). But nothing convinces me for a D1 lynch. He hasn't been around for much either, which is not good for him, but it isn't good for me to get a better read on him either On April 08 2013 04:41 gonzaw wrote: Time #2 that you mention him. No personal thoughts from you, just a statement that people have been talking about him. I checked the thread to see whether you were correct. I don't believe you were. I have yet to see you post showing that you are correct in thinking this. So what I see is NOT your thoughts on him. I see you thinking he's been discussed when he hasn't. I see you either REMEMBERING him as being more discussed when he wasn't, or outright lying. I'd like to stick with the first, but you (mis)remembering him being brought up this game does NOT equal a read from you on him.People HAVE been talking about Shevlocke. Meapak, you, and some others, ever since D1 started. On April 08 2013 04:47 gonzaw wrote: Time #3. No discussion, he's null-scummy.Anyways this D1 is like a fuckfest, with some null-scummy dudes (Shevlocke, others), and people that don't even show up (snoman, Caller, shevlocke himself, and more and more) On April 08 2013 05:35 gonzaw wrote: Time #4. Your MAIN POINT is that Shelvocke was being talked about. Which I disagree with. Again, you're misremembering or lying. You have provided ZERO posts where he was getting discussed, whereas I have provided 10 pages of "nope, he's not getting discussed." austin, my main point is that Shevlocke was started to being talked about once D1 started. Yes, by the time I made my Artanis case people didn't really talk about him much, but nobody really did anything else other than wagon on S&B and argue with Vivax. I don't think my point on Artanis goes well with Shevlocke because of that. Remember the ONLY time someone called Artanis out was Mepaak and me back in the drafting picking phase basically (and maybe Mocsta when he was arguing with him about geripts case). On April 08 2013 06:31 gonzaw wrote: Time #5. I still want to lynch Artanis. As more people start contributing and doing more stuff (Shevlocke included), we can consolidate better, and maybe even net us another scum via day KP You have mentioned him a couple times. Apart from your very first post, you haven't been telling me what you think of him beyond calling him null-scummy and maybe wanting to shoot him. But when you mention him, you are IN PART relying on some statements that I think are false memories or intentional attempts to prop him up. Despite claiming to have day KP, and seeing him as a potential day KP target, you don't seem to have any desire to actually go back and SEE whether your memory is correct or not. At the very least, I need you to level with me, because I'm also trying to read you off of this. Don't tell me you've told me a bunch of times what you think of him, because you really haven't. Don't tell me that he was discussed a bunch, because he wasn't. DO actually take a moment and go, "Oh man, I'm relying on something in making this read and I'm being told it's wrong. Am I wrong here? Am I relying on something that isn't true? Holy balls, I'm town, and I don't like the idea that I might be remembering people talk about him when nobody did, I better go check to make sure I'm not reading someone based on stuff that didn't happen." THAT is why I'm being annoying. Because I think Shelvocke is mafia, but even if he's not, the way that you are interacting with me about him is showing me that you just don't care. You find his vote null? You find his reading the thread but only commenting on side issues occasionally null? You find him reading thread but voting VE without really addressing 24 hours of activity by VE or about VE null? If not, then you're not really giving me your read here, not discussing this. So I'm being annoying and insistent because I don't like that, ESPECIALLY if you have day KP and are refusing to actually engage and look at someone who is apparently on your short list of people to shoot with the KP you may have. | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:52 Shelvocke wrote: Nope. I think you're the towniest mofo here.Austin, what is your point? Do you actually think that me having different expectations for VE and strongandbig and people not talking about me are good reasons to think that I'm mafia? Like right now I'm resisting the urge to call you a tunneling moron so much, it's not even funny. Wait, that's wrong. My point is that I think you're mafia. You're following thread by mainly providing minor comments on side issues. I dislike your reason for thinking VE is mafia, but you put it in thread, and me disagreeing with your analysis doesn't make you mafia. But you vote him without saying anything about what he said or anyone said about him over a 24 hour period, while reading thread enough to comment on snb and to say later that VE was asking to be lynched. Your scumread, your vote, seems less important to you than he should be, because instead of commenting on him over that 24 hour period you comment on snb. Your read on snb is fluffy. No posts. No follow-up. Poking gonzaw earlier about snb, so apparently you've been somewhat focused on snb, but two dinky little lines are all you've got about snb? Not buying. Right now I AM tunneling you. I'll address that later. Here, since you're around: (1) Do you continue to to find snb scummy? Can you give me less-fluffy reasons for that read? (2) Do you agree with Gonzaw that you were discussed/suspicified earlier in the game/moreso than Artanis was? If you don't, does that affect your Gonzaw read? (3) How do you feel about any two of the following: mocsta, keirathi, sinani? | ||
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On April 08 2013 08:01 gonzaw wrote: We may be on slightly different pages here, but I don't think I'm missing your meaning as much as you think.@austin: Stop with the "he was discussed off a bunch" thing. Reread that part of my case, and what exactly I mean by it. I'm not meaning what you think I'm meaning. My point was that Artanis wasn't mentioned at all in the rolepicking phase nor D1. Shevlocke was mentioned in D1. There, argument ended. If you think that shelvocke was mentioned in the number picking phase, you would be wrong. At least, I'm all the way back to page 15 ctrl + f-ing for both "shelv" AND "shev" (some people are typoing it like that) on every page and not finding anyone with a read on him. If you think he was discussed during the time where we had numbers and were picking roles, you'd be wrong. He was not. However, if you're just talking about D1, after the first 2+ real life days in this game, then yeah, he was MENTIONED (barely). But not by many, and there was never any followup from anyone. strongandbig says that Shelvocke is scum after Shelvocke starts on VE. No followup, nobody else talked about this but BM who called snb scum based on some association, then filtered snb and decided he wasn't scum. Vivax commented on him as part of thoughts on three folks. Seems to have found shelvocke's actions concerning VE's case on RO to not match up with what he would expect a townie's actions to be. But didn't seek any comment, didn't really say more than that. It's a mention, but it's not a discussion at all. On April 07 2013 09:43 Restraining Order wrote: Vivax mentions him again to RO, asking RO for a read. RO explicitly has no read. I don't have one, really. + Show Spoiler + I don't have any hope at all for the quality of your read on me, so that does not sound very enticing, just so you know. If I'm looking for people who have been mentioned/discussed, I'm looking for more than that. I will go ctrl + F for artanis if need be, but I think you're mistaken in how much each player got mentioned. Shelvocke certainly wasn't mentioned before the start of the actual voting phase, and once that started he got a couple offhand mentions but really nothing until I've been trying to push this. Those couple comments on him are really more than artanis got mentioned? And they count as like...actual mentions and comments? | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:31 gonzaw wrote: Nooooooooooooooooooo. Stahp with those letters. That is already on my WHAT IS GOING ON list of things in this game. Have I missed a recent reference here? Because as far as I've been able to tell, someone posted that this game out of nowhere, Palmar joined for some unknown reason, and now you're mentioning it.Gonzaw post I went through your case and told you a couple reasons I was townie on him. Scum can look active proposing plans, and not pushing anything hard, but I think that the particular plan that artanis mentioned and pushed was very anti-scum, and he could have posted a different plan/joined someone else's plan if he were scum and wanted to look active. I also find the timing on his geript stuff to be townie. Push him, leave, come back, actually re-read his stuff and change your read at the very very start of the game. No need to do that. No real scum purpose in doing that. Makes the geript bit look like a legitimate read that he then reconsidered later. Honestly that's a lot of the reason I don't like him for scum. I'll take a look at British but probably tomorrow while at work. Poking around elsewhere tonight. Still disagree with you on Shelvocke. I think he HAS posted a lot of fluff. I think a lot of his reads are unsubstantiated and don't feel real (No snb posts, not following up on VE, see the recent bit with rayn/mocsta/keirathi where he just makes this weird comment and that's it with no real reference to WHY he thinks what he says he thinks or what posts make him think what he says he thinks). | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:31 gonzaw wrote: All of Artanis's scum games. Unless I'm missing something. Database shows 8 old town games. And I think he's been in some hydra games? Dunno if he was scum in any of those.Also I dunno why but after Obvious reading ALL of Artanis games and concluding the same thing as I do....it makes me feel better about my Artanis read >_> On April 08 2013 09:42 yamato77 wrote: OO's analysis of his meta is decent, and coupled with gonzaw's case, I could see Artanus as scum. Wait, what? I really didn't find the meta post convincing. I did not go look at artanis's games myself, will admit that. But I can never tell whether I'd agree with someone's summaries of another person's meta when they give all these conclusions and like 4 posts TOTAL from 4 games of filter. I don't know what conclusions he's drawing from some of what he posted... Among things that I question, I see that the town games were a mini and a 16-man game, and that one of OO's points from British Empire was that artanis was trying to change his style. That doesn't mean that meta is useless, at all, but OO never addresses that, doesn't explain why IF there was a change in style he feels that the change is because of alignment. I see a post from a scum POSTGAME that Artanis would lurk in a big game, and then I see OO calling Artanis out in a 20+ player game for being barely here. I dunno. I do not know where the characteristics that OO presents are drawn from. I do not know how he reaches the conclusion he does when it conflicts with some of what he found. The 2nd to last paragraph of OO's was the best part of the whole thing for me, not any of the presented characteristics. | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:54 Mocsta wrote: I fully disagree on this point. For one, town austinmcc is entirely equivalent to this. Rawr. I don't even think we've played many games together when I'm town and have played decently.Disagree. The plan itself was pro-town; but not how he went about campaigning it. There is a distinct lack of conviction. For some reason you are choosing to judge him from his actions; not his motivations. A town AustinMCC is better than this. But aside from that, we don't disagree on artanis's early game plan. He did not push/seem full on conviction on a pro-town plan. We agree there. I put emphasis on the fact that he was the sole person mentioning a heavy RNG plan. I put emphasis on the fact that the plan feels VERY anti-mafia, because no matter what town plans mafia can at least plan around it, except with RNG you're limiting your ability to plan around anything. It's a very pro-town/anti-mafia plan imo. In a vacuum, I do not find it likely that a mafia player looking to be active would choose to lightly push THAT particular plan, or wouldn't hop off it and just parrot some other plan. | ||
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On April 08 2013 10:17 gonzaw wrote: I'll go reread some past games, but probably tomorrow while at work. austin, go read British Mafia 2 once and for all before just dismissing it and saying "yeah I haven't read his games yet" :/ I remember Artanis in LI (I forgot he was there if OO hadn't mentioned it lol) accused me of a scumslip as well. I....the most pro-town motherfucker in LI, and he caught a "scumslip" and seriously accused me, using an aggressive serious tone. I instantly knew he was scum after that....it was impossible a townie would do that Now go read his geript case. Geript was pretty much town (in the eyes of many, me, yamato, etc), and Artanis comes up with some "bullshit" stuff (including the scumslip) and goes against him. I had the same reaction I'm going to trust my gut on this one. Mocsta, I really hope you took a vote-altering role; cos politician suits you to a tee. Almost actually, but taking and using a vote-altering role is basically using KP, and I didn't want to do that.No, I hadn't read the post you're referencing when writing mine. Your "another attempt to contribute something meaningful without contributing" is equivalent to my "mafia player trying to look active." It's not enough, to me, to say that someone contributed something that LOOKED meaningful but didn't push it/turns out it wasn't/whatever. They chose to present a particular thing, to try to appear like they were contributing on a particular point. I do not see mafia, trying to appear like they were contributing to the plan discussion, putting forth the RNG plan. It's the thing that got contributed, whether pushed or not, chosen out of all the various posts/plans/comments that artanis could have made, that has me townie on him. | ||
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And YEAH. You can come up with some super pro-town idea in game, release it, and proceed to fuck off. There's a 100% chance that I'll find someone who puts forth a super pro-town idea to be likely town. I may be wrong here. I might be wrong if you ever do that. But I forgot that coming up with super pro-town plans was NOT a townie thing to do. So yes, I may be horribly horribly wrong here. One side of this is. But all in all, I like shelvocke better than artanis for scum, and even if he weren't here I'd be looking at non-artanises for my vote. | ||
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THIS POST On April 08 2013 19:44 strongandbig wrote: Pages of chatter about what role must have shot gonzaw, etc. Yet nobody else asked this question? did anyone try to pick assassin and get denied? If you tried to pick assassin and are a VT, you should claim. YES, that opens yourself up to being killed by BC or an Assassin. However: (1) BC role has limited shots. Not unlikely that if we have a scum-BC, he wouldn't use those shots on VTs. (2) Unless you're like 24th or 25th on the list, you claiming gives us valuable information. PYP games always seem to include some reverse-engineering of who-picked-what, and we need to know if you tried to get a role that is almost certainly in scum hands to narrow down where that role is. (3) Per the OP, the assassin gets a kill per cycle. He can't just machine-gun down everyone. So you're not in massive danger of dying to an assassin if you say you tried to get that role and are now VT, because we've already had a couple soft claims as well. You can't get assassinated before next day, and even then, it looks like people are claim happy and the assassin would have other targets with perhaps roles that scum doesn't want active. So please, if you tried to pick assassin and did not get it, and you're not at the very, very bottom of the list, speak up. | ||
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On April 08 2013 23:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Or he's an extractor and is forcing you to claim, and thinks that you are scum and will have picked a role that makes you almost certainly scum.If Caller is speaking the truth, I'm dead and the only two ways that could happen are a nuke (but it wouldn't make too much sense since his initial deadline was past the 12 hour requirement) or Showtime!. In this case, day ends, I flip green and we lynch Caller the next day. If Caller is lying, he's managed to derail the thread talking about things that don't matter for shit and won't give us any reads whereas there was a constructive town atmosphere before then. I see no reason why a town player would do so but plenty of reason for scum to do so. Thus, we lynch Caller today. Or he's lying and NOT derailing the thread. Caller's made a number of posts that show his mindset this game, he's specifically stated that everything is a trap, and he might be trying to force a claim out of you just because, and then see whether or not he believes it. Until something HAPPENS, Caller's posts shouldn't be derailing the thread. If anything comes of it, then we've got something to discuss re: whatever Caller's been doing. Until then, people shouldn't be so concerned with what he might or might not be doing. Either he does something or he doesn't, and we look at what happens then. | ||
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It is not terribly important whether this is similar to the yamato/kurumi shot in Personality 2. This is a different game, and I don't think either of you can go from proving your point as to whether it's similar --> scumhunting effectively in this game. So please, drop it. | ||
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On April 09 2013 00:50 Oatsmaster wrote: I like to have fun.You are liking your role as 'thread police' slightly too much. have less fun please. Lynch VE? In all honesty, I'm considering VE. I still believe shelvocke to be mafia, and I like that lynch a lot. Much of the case on VE is that he hasn't been doing anything, which is NOT something that I expect from mafia-VE, honestly. However, it's not something that I expect from town-VE, especially if geript is telling the truth and SOMEONE up at the top is an NRA member (I agree with the sentiment that if someone at the top took that role, it's likely VE OR shelvocke (again, shelvocke is pretty clearly a smurf and people seem to be overlooking that)). Any reason in particular why I should lynch VE over shelvocke? | ||
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On April 09 2013 00:57 Oatsmaster wrote: Yeah, but this actually bothers me and I can't figure out why it's not bothering anyone else. Shelvocke is familiar with old games. With some of the players here. He's "from Grenada." He's a smurf.Nothing other than VE is VE and I have no idea how shelvocke plays. I could go with both. I do not know anyone who has been around for a while that is SO uninvolved. Like, there are more veteran players than I that are not known for being super active, but they are insightful at times or have plans or do things. risk.nuke comes to mind as someone I have not seen smurf, is not super-active, but when he's town he's usually involved in SOMETHING even if he doesn't push what he's involved with hard. I get NONE of that from Shelvocke. This isn't smurfing so your name isn't a lynch target. This is smurfing and then doing NOTHING. There's no unique viewpoint (from what I've seen). Meapak is posting almost nothing, but some of his posts show very clear thoughts. Shelvocke is some person that sees a need to smurf, but NO need to provide thread with much original thought, reads, etc. That is concerning to me. I am used to seeing smurfs do STUFF. They joined the game under guise of a smurf for a reason, not so that they could be absent/uninvolved/whatever. So yeah, I don't know how Shelvocke plays, but how he IS playing does not match up to what I expect from ANYONE'S town smurf. On April 09 2013 01:07 Sn0_Man wrote: Please expound.How abouts we lynch sinani instead. His filter is 1 page + 2 posts, everybody can afford to go through it. His interactions with gonzaw's claim are really bad (like, extremely scum-motivated), and he demonstrates that he is actually reading yet he fails to write more than 1 line except an easy bandwagon on to S&B when his lynch looked popular. PS: Shevlocke really looks like a bad lynch to me. His posts look like he is reading and thinking about the game, and they look pretty insightful. I want to give him a chance N1/D2 to achieve something. I think I'd lynch VE before him. Either way, I'm off to find the voting topic. Since it seems customary to do this here as well, ##Vote: sinani206 (1) What interactions with Gonzaw were scum-motivated? (2) Which posts look like Shelvocke is reading and thinking the game? Which are insightful? | ||
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On April 09 2013 02:53 strongandbig wrote: Plox to wait until the shelvocke question is answered.hey sno-man a few pages back sharrant and i each shared our reads on obviousone. wanna join the "trying to be less lurky" party? poop us out a read on obviousone | ||
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On April 09 2013 02:58 Sn0_Man wrote: I found newbies 37 and 38. Have you been in any other games?"Hey Sn0 give us a read on every person in the thread" no fuck you I don't like big games. I think Sinani is the best lynch today and there is my vote. Other people I don't like (but don't expect to lynch either) include oatsmaster and to an extent bill murray. I joined this PYP because its PYP so hopefully some interesting stuff happens tonight. I'm more interested in cool roles and interactions and that stuff and less interested in the traditional mafia scumhunt. I've played all my games with an eye towards solving stuff (with logic and blue roles) rather than having good reads on people. | ||
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On April 09 2013 03:04 austinmcc wrote: I found newbies 37 and 38. Have you been in any other games? EBWOP: Scratch that, found the others. | ||
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I completely missed the end of the day and the flips while diving sn0_man's past games. Still going to write up what I found, but will have to look him over in relation to VE and Artanis now. | ||
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On April 09 2013 05:05 geript wrote: I don't see a scum vote rigger activating that role prematurely when artanis had a bunch of votes and VE had some as well. No reason for them to double lynch before getting townies on the chopping block, nor is there reason for a scum vote rigger to mess with the votes so that a scum dies (and not claim immediately afterwards for cred).Yes, Scum could still have a vote rigger because the vote ended prematurely. They couldn't know that. Just a heads up. | ||
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Not liking sn0_Man. Have put him aside based on his absence, other people having my interest, and a general feeling that I don't want to go after the first guy in a PYP game unless I'm sure he's scum. To some extent, killing off a super high picking townie seems slightly worse than a normal mislynch, although I'm not having that reservation with Shelvocke so I need to get over it. I dug through sn0_Man's games. He has only played newbies, 4 of em, with 3 town and 1 game in which he replaced into a mafia player's shoes. With no further ado, I shall don my ObviousOne getup and present some findings. (1) Above all else, sn0_Man seems to care about the game. He is invested in games. He often takes a "leader" role, trying to get people to do other stuff, questioning them, being contentious if need be. In one newbie game, he had some comments for the hosts about balance, indicating to me that he's invested in his games. Examining and questioning the balance of a game, more than just GG GAME UNBALANCES, shows a commitment to trying to play and win games and a commitment to...good mafia as a whole? Some examples of this observation: Cop in Newbie 36
(2) He substantiates his scumreads. Not always, none of us do, but when he really wants to analyze someone, he generally does so within the context of definite posts, and his analysis refers to those posts. Some examples of this observation: VT in Newbie 35
(3) Often asks targeted questions at specific folks, but sometimes adds open questions that further discussion Some examples of this observation: VT in Newbie 35
(4) He is ... conversational. He does not dip in and out, but he responds to thoughts, explains himself, pushes things further. Some examples of this observation: Cop in Newbie 36
So again. He hasn't played many games, but he's concerned with balance. When MYLO/LYLO is and whether it's best to no-lynch. When votes occur. What town/scum players would do in certain situations. He's concerned with things beyond just posts. He often talks to other players, rather than dropping his thoughts in thread and leaving, he interacts. He often interacts as a leader, or at the very least he makes his wishes known as to what he thinks that thread should do. His filter from his only scum game - Here. He replaced in, but I get a LACK of the following townsn0 things in that game. Scum RB in Newbie 38
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(1) Has sn0_man taken a leader role at all, posted in the same authoritative tone? No. Not that I have seen. On D1 he even asks what the plan was, not seeking to have a role in creating the plan. (2) Does he substantiate his scumreads? No. Spoilered, because there are a lot of questionable reads when compared to his posting in other games. + Show Spoiler + On April 09 2013 00:50 Sn0_Man wrote: Doesn't want to vote Artanis. Going to vote for VE. Why? He hasn't said why, never mentioned VE before now.HI guys. I AFK every weekend. Of the possible lynches today, I think I'm going to vote for VE. Artanis is present and his arguments make enough sense. I agree with the logic that scum using a re-usable day-vig today on a powerful Jack role (When their only other option was basically geript the VT) is enough in itself and doesn't change the arguments for or against artanis. I'll read Shevlocke/Sinani filters and see if there is anything glaring there. 10 hours to lynch I think so we have a bit of time. On April 09 2013 01:07 Sn0_Man wrote: Wants to vote sinani, not VE. Still no explanation from sn0_man of why he'd like to vote VE. No particular posts of sinani's pointed out. Barely any analysis of sinani's filter, which although short, has some posts that you could actually analyze.How abouts we lynch sinani instead. His filter is 1 page + 2 posts, everybody can afford to go through it. His interactions with gonzaw's claim are really bad (like, extremely scum-motivated), and he demonstrates that he is actually reading yet he fails to write more than 1 line except an easy bandwagon on to S&B when his lynch looked popular. PS: Shevlocke really looks like a bad lynch to me. His posts look like he is reading and thinking about the game, and they look pretty insightful. I want to give him a chance N1/D2 to achieve something. I think I'd lynch VE before him. Either way, I'm off to find the voting topic. Since it seems customary to do this here as well, ##Vote: sinani206 When I asked him to substantiate his reads, because I felt they were super-airy, he...barely complied: On April 09 2013 02:41 Sn0_Man wrote: (1) He has made 3 total posts since gonzaw's claim. First, he asks gonzaw to kill Bill Murray, a subject of no discussion that wouldn't really shed any light on the game. It isn't who he is voting for and his only justification is "I have no meta on him but I think he is scummy" (thats his second post). His third is basically asking gonzaw to full roleclaim (which, in light of scum clearly having an assassin, is extremely scummy. Nothing from him since then. On April 09 2013 02:54 Sn0_Man wrote: Those posts do NOT feel like town sn0 justifying his reads. He seems...reluctant to even GIVE reads, when before he often explains reads clearly.(2) I dunno, his filter? If you are really needy, just read his last post: Even if he is insane and or making stuff up, its fairly clear that he is reading and thinking the game and is thus contributing quite a bit more than Sinani (and VE, to be honest). I'd rather have him in the game Day 2 than either of the other 2. He was trying to figure out what person shot gonzaw when really nobody else was thinking that way. Really, my argument isn't that Shelvocke isn't scum, its that he is a better player to have in the thread come day 2 than sinani or VE based off of play so far. My scum-identification rate is really bad. On April 09 2013 02:58 Sn0_Man wrote: No strongandbig, you can't have my reads. I think sinani is the best lynch The End. Mentions oats and Bill Murray. Does he mention VE anymore? The guy who was his top candidate earlier that he's never explained (and who just flipped mafia)? No. No mention of VE. "Hey Sn0 give us a read on every person in the thread" no fuck you I don't like big games. I think Sinani is the best lynch today and there is my vote. Other people I don't like (but don't expect to lynch either) include oatsmaster and to an extent bill murray. I joined this PYP because its PYP so hopefully some interesting stuff happens tonight. I'm more interested in cool roles and interactions and that stuff and less interested in the traditional mafia scumhunt. I've played all my games with an eye towards solving stuff (with logic and blue roles) rather than having good reads on people. Finally mentions VE after being directly asked to: On April 09 2013 03:39 Sn0_Man wrote: VE useless and now looks null. He doesn't ACTUALLY explain his read on VE, look at this. He dismisses his ability to look at meta on VE, but he provides no analysis at all of VE's filter this game. VE inactive, but has posted. sn0 doesn't even look at the posts on someone he was scummy on and now is null.He looks useless this game, but from what I could tell the heart of all the arguments against him are meta arguments, which I can't comment on because I've never played a game with him nor have I read one sufficiently to have any meta on him. I have a pretty null read on him, but I'll say that he is a better lynch than artanis (who has not cleared himself but who has at least put up a real defense) and a better lynch than many other people simply because of the amount of discussion surrounding him (aka it would be an informative lynch as compared to, say, a shevlocke lynch which I don't see as producing much valuable information by flipping). Which is why as I've said I may vote VE if it comes to that. Right now I want people to lynch Sinani though so I'm in no rush to vote VE. The interactions with a read on VE look particularly bad in light of that flip. He wants to lynch VE, for unknown reasons, then sinani instead of artanis/VE/shelvocke. Oats and BM are scummy, VE has fallen off the list. When Pushed to talk about VE, VE is null, with no real explanation given, and the post is steered away from VE. Absolutely no substantiation of ANY VE read, and a desire to avoid the subject. (3) Does he ever ask questions of others? In this game, he asks these weak questions with no target, just sort of general "help me out guys" questions - + Show Spoiler + On April 05 2013 14:38 Sn0_Man wrote: Was there a consensus as to what I was picking first? No i'm not doing a silly "deny" pick like janitor. (4) Is he conversational at all? No. He mainly just complains, without really interacting. When he interacts with someone, he doesn't have the back and forth that occurred in some of his other games. + Show Spoiler + On April 04 2013 14:28 Sn0_Man wrote: WELP I wasn't expecting any kind of serious activity during this draft phase Ah well I'll read it all tomorrow. My numbers are already submitted as promised anyway. Even if he is insane and or making stuff up, its fairly clear that he is reading and thinking the game and is thus contributing quite a bit more than Sinani (and VE, to be honest). I'd rather have him in the game Day 2 than either of the other 2. He was trying to figure out what person shot gonzaw when really nobody else was thinking that way. Really, my argument isn't that Shelvocke isn't scum, its that he is a better player to have in the thread come day 2 than sinani or VE based off of play so far. My scum-identification rate is really bad. On April 09 2013 02:58 Sn0_Man wrote: "Hey Sn0 give us a read on every person in the thread" no fuck you I don't like big games. I don't get the sense that his play this game matches his town play in newbie games. His reads are rare, and don't have the same weight behind them as his reads in other game had. I don't see any desire to take a leader-y role, in fact, I see a desire to blend in and ask bland, general questions. I don't see concern with elements of mafia in general, a number-picking plan, role-picking plan, thinks that I might expect him to be interested in given his interest in balance/calculating MYLO/LYLO, etc. According to his own post, he joined a PYP game for the PYP aspect. The powers, the usage, etc. He got THE NUMBER ONE PICK. I know I would have been super excited at that. He is ... almost UPSET at that. He complains that he got first pick. He complains that the thread is moving too fast, that he's being asked for reads. HE IS THE FIRST PICK. HE JOINED FOR THE PICKING AND THE POWERS. It shouldn't matter what else is happening, he should be delighted. He should be going, "Fuck yeah, first pick. I got to deny an important role or take an important role and I'ma have fun with it." Not complaining. This is...small but important to me. On April 07 2013 07:30 Sn0_Man wrote: Oats looks dirtier to me than any1 else right now :/ People think vivax is scum because he's always best mislynch. sn0_man has only played newbie games. He specifically said he couldn't do anything with the VE meta comments because he didn't know VE's meta. Look closely at that post. He knows that people always find vivax scummy, and that vivax is always a good mislynch. How does he know this? How does he know how vivax plays, how people interact with vivax? He shot down knowing how VE plays, didn't care about it. But he does know vivax's past games. How, when he hasn't played in any of them? Perhaps he's got some folks saying outside the thread that vivax is a juicy mislynch most games? Okay, I keep trying to fix some quote tags above but they are being cooperative. Anyway, read his posts even through the messed-up quote tags. I do NOT get the town indicators, I don't get a sense he cares about the game, is conversational and cheerful, substantiates his reads. I DO get that his reads are more fluffy, less anchored to any concrete posts and analysis. I think his VE dancing looks really bad in light of that flip. I think his attitude has been bad, which conflicts with his positive attitude in other games AND his self-proclaimed desire to want to play a PYP (FIRST PICK ZOMG!!!!!). I see a weird comment where he knows Vivax's playstyle despite never having played with him. I see an utter lack of happiness that we just killed 2 scum on D1. Look at his response to the flip. Nonexistant. Just wants to start plinking away at emporer vs. vote rigger, but no reaction AT ALL to the flips. Avoids em. He has no other big games. He has no games where he's scum from the start. So there's not a fantastic comparison. But I see sn0_man. It's all the comparing I can do, and his play within this game, aside from his play past games - the vivax comment, the lack of flip-talk, his "read" on VE...it don't look good. It look scummy. | ||
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On April 09 2013 05:52 geript wrote: That post is actually me messing up "s" names in this game and not double-checking. The 16th pick bit, anyway.This post looks to me exactly like: I want to try and get a Shelvocke mislynch, but to not out myself as I feel VE is dead regardless I don't want to close the door on me being able to vote for him to not look scummy. It essentially says "Well if we can believe geript then VE likely took NRA and that makes him scum OR Shelvocke who drafted 16th took it and Shelvocke is a smurf so he should be given more attention." | ||
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On April 09 2013 06:04 Sn0_Man wrote: Still uncomfortable with the vivax comment. VE e-famous for certain actions as well. And vivax making no sense =/= mislynched all day urrday. Not sure about this, but he's seemed less mislynched in recent games than in earlier games, although yeah, he can be a bit nonsensical at times.@Austin: Vivax e-famous for making no sense All my relevant posts are in a short period I recommend you read that period rather than from filter because context is important. Either way, the comment on VE was when there were essentially 2 candidates (VE/Artanis) and I felt VE was a better lynch. Later, I very clearly said VE is NULL to me but a better lynch than most purely for information purposes. So I was willing to vote VE but didn't see him as scummy. Some other people mentioned going after Sinani/Shelvocke so I poked through their filters and decided Sinani was the best lynch. I still think oats looks bad but there is no movement to lynch him so I'm leaving that read on the backburner. I don't waltz into a thread and demand answers after posting essentially nothing for 48 hours, and I don't try to "lead" people whose play I respect. I am not understanding why you can feel someone is a good lynch when they are null to you. I am not understanding wanting to lynch a null read for information D1 when we are absolutely certain that this game contains 5 or more scum. Being willing to vote someone you don't find scummy is...questionable at best. | ||
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On April 09 2013 09:47 Vivax wrote: Don't think scum was defending Artanis anyway, it was futile, I was already doing the job for them and they saw it didn't work. On April 09 2013 09:14 Vivax wrote: You think Oats, austin, Sno_man is really the final scumteam?it's kinda the thing that falls spontaneously in mind. No particular reason. On April 09 2013 09:19 Vivax wrote: Welcome to the game, Vivax.RO. Oats, austin Sno final scumteam. Thoughts? | ||
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On April 09 2013 09:59 Vivax wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 09 2013 09:52 austinmcc wrote: Welcome to the game, Vivax. Hi. Don't put too much importance into that mix, I pulled it out of my hat. I'm in a trolly mood. I'm serious about what I wrote about MZ and yamato though. I actually read a little of their filters before posting. I'm not putting any importance on that mix. I'm welcoming you to the game, because those were very Vivaxy posts and I smiled at them. | ||
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Thanks MZ, you're a real sweetheart. Given the number of people who popped in, I'll assume we have no Russia and play today as best I can. (1) Don't lynch sn0_man, he's town (2) If you're town, please STOP THROWING KP AROUND. Or at the very least, claim it BEFORE the kills go through. It is far more likely that we can catch some scum this game based on claims/actions/roles than in a normal game, and the more unclaimed KP we have the harder it is to figure things out AND the more you fix scum's biggest disadvantage this game. We took out 2 friggin' roles that could kill people, scum had a janitor, so AT MOST they have 2 roles left with KP. Stop making it easier for them and IF you're going to throw around KP, claim it. (3) There are two anti-claim KP roles in the game. Assassin has already flipped, leaving only BC, who has 2 shots and can only shoot once a cycle. There are ALSO a couple anti-claim roles built in with role swapper/thief. HOWEVER, role swapper and thief are both NIGHT ACTIONS. If anyone got swapped or stolen, you should claim NOW. If nobody claims, it's likely neither role is present in the game, imo. At the very least, the worst thing that a scum swapper/thief can do is swap roles with someone N2, which is a long way off. (4) Because there's only one possible claim-KP role left, with limited shots once per cycle, and because nobody claimed getting a role stolen, I think we're in the clear to start claiming, or at least will be very soon. Nobody should start doing it yet, because it needs to be somewhat organized, but based on artanis's death and the lack of claimed night actions, it looks like the coast is clear. (5) Everyone talking about scum numbers needs to remember that people could have chosen traitor and reclusive traitor. It's possibly they have more than 5 members, but without any extra power roles at that point. Don't forget this, but it's a concern for later. (6) BM, you looked super-townie to me on D1 based on what you were doing. If you're town, then right now you're providing less of a service and you're more just spamming the thread. Can you knock that off? If you want to be active and spammy, go back to D1 BM posting. | ||
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We killed two scum D1 and lost one townie in the process. We took a massive advantage. It LOOKS like we killed at least one scum overnight, given the usage of the janitor power. At this point, scum is limited in being able to plan. Scum is limited in being able to exert any power over town. The more any townie spreads misinformation, fake claims, sets traps, whatever, the more chaotic the thread is and the easier it is to hide in it. | ||
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On April 10 2013 23:10 Bill Murray wrote: yes I think SnB is scum ok i will quit posting for you austin, see you all at night You should unvote sn0. He's town. What you were doing D1 was helpful, and probably would be so again once today's discussion picks up somewhat and we get more votes. | ||
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Gonna clear my head for a few hours and be productive, then come back and be more active. Please think about whether mass claiming (probably from the bottom up, in an orderly manner, so as to make it more risky to fakeclaim for scum) makes sense to you and whether there are downsides that I'm not seeing. | ||
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On April 10 2013 23:23 Mocsta wrote: Sorry Austin. Im not against "hard to reads" claiming. Or if the information is useful (e.g. Kei -> checked Austin) But I am not planning to claim. I think my actions should make me probably town for most, if not all. Hence: My role *may* or *may not* have more to offer. I prefer to keep scum on their toes with that. This is true of the VAST majority of roles. Most of the benefit to claiming is to force claims/fake claims early, to be able to potentially catch people in that way, to potentially be able to confirm certain players based on roles and whatnot, and also to coordinate actions. At this point it's a very large group against a small one, checking different targets, protecting valuable targets, etc., has some value. | ||
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On April 10 2013 23:38 Mocsta wrote: I'm going to.Well, according to BC. Your dead in 36hr. You might as well claim? But in general, because of the way picking works and what I remember about other PYP games, you want claiming to be from the bottom up. That way any player who wants to try and fakeclaim takes a big risk - if player 20 claims role x and player 10 claims role x, one is lying. You can't be SAFE fake claiming, because someone may actually have that role above you. Adding more risk to fake claiming, forcing more truth = good. If I claim my role right now, scum know not to fakeclaim that role if they're below me. So yeah, you'll get a claim from me today, either on its own or as part of an overall scheme, but if we're going to massclaim, doing so in an organized manner is best. | ||
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I think my new plan for big games is to stop trying to have scumreads because this is two games in a row I've just been bass-ackward, and start cat herding. | ||
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On April 11 2013 00:40 Oatsmaster wrote: To be fair, my "scumreads" in Personality 2 were also bass-ackwards, but that was on purpose. So we can make it my last 3 games if you want You were scum in personality 2. Was that not your last big game? Also claim please  But my last town game was LIX where I legitimately just did everything wrong, and despite trying not to do so here today, most of the reads I focused on were wrong (assuming that shelvocke is town by association, which seems likely except I still hate the fact that someone who felt it necessary to smurf is doing jack all and so the only things that make him look town are scum actions, not his own, imo). If nobody has major qualms about claiming or can see ways in which this can go Seriously Wrong™, then we will claim and whatnot. But we have a full cycle. It seems more valuable to scumhunt normally, to make people hunt/look like they're hunting/get cool new thoughts into thread, and THEN claim, and then use BOTH to make our lynch decisions today. If we claim early in the cycle, then the cycle becomes only about claiming, and scum can't hide in claiming but can hide in the discussion. I actually only wanted to see if anyone could think of serious downsides, because I haven't found any, and I think it solidifies the advantage we should have going into today/coming out of yesterday. But I'm starting to realize it can warp discussion/scumhunting, and so may be better to put off. All that is to say I need to shutup and scumhunt, but I don't seem to be able to resist the urge to herd. YAH! CATS! YAH! | ||
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On April 11 2013 02:02 geript wrote: Do explain. Yup, still seeing no reason to move my votes. You're voting the guy nuking me AND the guy I'm more-than-hinting I checked last night and got a town result. | ||
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It doesn't matter whether you believe my claim or not, you will see what I am at the end of the day. Since you're going to be able to confirm my claim anyway, why would you lynch someone TODAY based on not believing me, when you can just as easily lynch them tomorrow if I'm lying? | ||
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On April 11 2013 02:42 Vivax wrote: Wut? Austin, did you have weapons of mass destruction after all? | ||
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On April 11 2013 05:09 Sn0_Man wrote: We know that SOMEONE took the justice vigi role, or yamato is lying and taking a sizeable risk, given that he's got to claim early.Hmm, so anybody with a Role (no alignment necessary) check may wish to use it on BM tonight for confirmation. (Justice vig = town, not JV = scum) Beyond that, it's possible he got his role stolen by the guy who prevents use the night he steals, but BM was like 20th pick so no thief in their right mind targets him. Plus I thought BM would be informed of this and would share it .BM probably not a good check based on that, plus, justice vigi is a role that confirms himself. Janitor is gone, so either a mafia member dies EVERY night phase, or the justice vigi dies. If you don't see either of those things happen, there is no justice vigi, and yamato is lying and gets lynched. Because the role is compulsive and has a confirmable outcome, there's no need to check whoever claims it. The claim gets verified by the flips in the case of that role. | ||
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He's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the list of folks to look at though. | ||
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On April 11 2013 09:32 Vivax wrote: Scum has a tough time hiding in PYP games because of how number/role picking works. I don't really see the purpose in claiming could you enlighten me again? They can only fakeclaim roles from the OP IF they fakeclaim a role that someone else has, then they're screwed IF they fakeclaim VT, they still have to claim what they picked, meaning still can be screwed So. They can get tripped up trying to fakeclaim, and can find scum just based on who picked when. It also informs any protective roles where they need to be, where checks need to go. The OP has some roles that are designed to disincentivize claims - Assassin, BloodyCobbler, the thief/role swapper roles. However, the assassin is dead, and BC is two-shot PLUS can't claim BC if scum (at this point, silent day kills = BC and so we'll know what's up), and the thief/role swapper can't do anything until night + have trouble not claiming. Blah blah blah. We also know that SOME roles are likely to be town. Whoever caused the double lynch yesterday, almost certainly town. Anyone who took justice vigi, almost certainly town. So claiming may well net some confirmed townies, some very likely townies, and quite possibly catches scum or at the very least narrows down their options. Seeing as they've lost 2-? members, AND one of the role-claim deterrents, it's a good way to force them to claim or be potentially caught, and you can watch for what actions people take later in the game. | ||
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On April 11 2013 09:41 Vivax wrote: If you fakeclaim cop, and nobody above you claims cop, then you're in trouble.What if I fakeclaim, oh look I tried to pick cop it wasn't available sowwy I'm just a VT. Nothing going to change if I claim. Scum can lie, and it doesn't make anyone town. I'd rather show I'm town through my actions, not help scum choose their NK targets. That's why we're going bottom up, scum CAN'T just fakeclaim and be sure they're good, without giving up multiple members. And even if you do fakeclaim, a number of townies will look good based on what they claim, and so you'll still be in a pile of questionables on a day where there are multiple lynches available. | ||
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It's not the world's worst idea, but people seem to like blasting off their KP. | ||
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On April 11 2013 10:33 geript wrote: Nope. This is not the question. Knock it off. The real question is why has Sn0 been against every pro-town plan since the beginning and attacking the only confirmed townie the whole game? If you want to build a case on sn0, go do it. Co-opt my case. Whatever. But, despite him being a big scumread of mine yesterday, I'm pretty much convinced he's town today. You can assume that some sort of terrible nasty plan is in motion here, but I'm pretty damn paranoid and I have reason to believe that there is, in fact, NOT some sort of terrible nasty plan in motion as regards sn0_man. Sorry, look elsewhere. | ||
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On April 11 2013 20:09 Bill Murray wrote: I'm alive. Just haven't made the time for this that I should have.is austin alive? We could very much use your claim. You and a couple others are at the bottom of the order for unclaimed folks. At the very least, you've soft-claimed justice vig so hard that if you're anything else, it's pretty likely you end up getting lynched if the flips don't support a justice vig being in the mix. Moreover, yamato has claimed VT who tried to pick justice vig, so if claims say we DON'T have one, then we've got a liar. Worthwhile to play along with the claims imo, and actually get them moving forward today. | ||
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On April 11 2013 21:50 Vivax wrote: Hopefully, we get to that. But we should still be moving bottom-up.Are you actually America or Russia? | ||
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On April 11 2013 22:26 Mocsta wrote: How come everyone is ignoring my points on snb? Mainly because you went from being sensible and posting clear arguments to putting a lot of spam in the thread and continuously poking at everyone you could I have only been skimming your posts since partway through N1 becuase of that.Looking things over now. | ||
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Bill Murray, Shelvocke, Mocsta, could use claims from you guys. Mocsta, I think it's ... absurd to be calling someone "meticulous" apart from like...that dienosore guy's action charts. I think it's even more absurd to be lynching someone because they don't meet your meticulous standard for them. I have played with lurky snb, I've played with snb throwing in joke/dinky little comments. I do not care that snb typed hahaha in response to Caller. The VE stuff is better, but at least with the first comment I disagree with your characterization of snb's quote. On April 07 2013 06:09 strongandbig wrote: I read the bolded part differently than you do. I see that as looking for MORE comment on VE, actively opening the door for him to be a continued topic of discussion. I just don't see that as him shutting down discussion. Personally, if I'm really thinking someone is scum, and a third player tells me that my reasoning isn't enough, I need more, I'm dumb enough to go hunting through a filter for more (see me trying to convince gonzaw on shelvocke, etc. etc.). So perhaps it's just a quirk of my play, but I read that one differently.On other news shelvocke is scum? How has VE been refusing to play? A vote on ve at this point needs way more justification than the sentence he posted. | ||
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(1) On April 08 2013 19:44 strongandbig wrote: This was my first thought upon returning to thread. The dude that shoots roleclaimers just shot. If anyone was denied the assassin role, we can possibly narrow down where the assassin shot came from. This shows, to me, that he was approaching the shot on gonzaw from a townie mindset.did anyone try to pick assassin and get denied? (2) He wanted to lynch between artanis/shelvocke/VE On April 08 2013 04:52 strongandbig wrote: anyway before i go back to grading problem sets let me make my positions clear: at the moment, i am willing to lynch shelvok because his filter reads to me like he's being very "on track" but his justifications for those things are super insufficient. i am also willing to lynch artanis because gonzaws case seems good and artanis's response doesn't convince me he's town out of other people who have votes at the moment, i won't support killing palmar or keirathi or ryan. i would think about killing VE because of how bad his vote on deconduo is but it would take some persuading for me to do that. On April 08 2013 23:20 strongandbig wrote: Yes, those were leading candidates, but we know now that AT LEAST 2/3 of them were scum. Whereas you may think that pushing VE over Artanis means saving the more important scumbuddy, I think that putting no real effort into trying to find a third party, or pushing shelvocke/pushing me to push shelvocke as a lynch candidate looks townie. He's making no real effort to push the lynch off scum, to move people away from artanis/VE, and I, for now, find that townie.we should absolutely be lynching between artanis, shelvocke, and VE today. IMO we should be lynching VE. For a scum that high up to take NRA member instead of some active KP role, they would have to think of themselves as a likely check or other night action target. It doesn't make sense just to have a lurker take it and hope to get vigged instead of lynched. VE is the only one of the list above geript who is a likely check or vig target but not a likely early lynch. Plus, if you look at his play it's like he's trying to draw vig shots or dt checks. He is most likely the scum NRA member. Plus unlike artanis or shelvocke, if he is the NRA member then there's no hope for investigative roles to clear up the questions about him. IMO we should lynch ve. (3) On April 09 2013 02:14 strongandbig wrote: Another topic - if anyone tried to get traitor and was rejected they should probably claim. So...maybe I just have a scummy way of thinking about this game/setups, but I have also been keeping traitors in the back of my head. You can interpret this as fishing so that scum can narrow down where any traitors are, but you can also look at this as thinking about the possibility of a traitor and trying to start dealing with that possibility. It's...not a great point either way, but traitors in this game are kind of useless for scum. They don't add KP, so you acting on a traitor to recruit them is giving away an action (on the traitor to recruit him) that you could have used on a townie, for a benefit of...some guy who adds no KP or powers to your lineup. | ||
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On April 11 2013 23:03 Mocsta wrote: Vivax. Who did u parity check Austin with? I'm not claiming yet as its not my turn. As I said before I crumbed it. So will release when I wake up We could use it as you're down towards the bottom and things are moving super-slow. The first half of this day was really light from a bunch of us on scumhunting OR doing anything with claims, and the more we hold things up the longer it takes (Pretty sure I just want to blow through them because I'm gonna die and want to see if I can do anything with em, so maybe my sense of urgency is overblown). Also, parity cop is one person per day in this setup, like normal. So the first day just seeds your second check, it doesn't actually give you a same/different result. | ||
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On April 11 2013 23:06 Mocsta wrote: Assassin had already been used D1 though, so it wasn't going to be up for an entire cycle. Moreover, SOMEONE on the scum team had some sense and could intuit that Gonzaw was a jack based on his claimed KP and the fact he was sure he'd live until D2 to maybe use it.Austin. Personally I read pointed 1 and 3 as looking for vt to use assassin on. Its moot as can be taken as townie or scum. As for point 2. Its all fluff. He says this, he says that, but what does he actually do? Why does he say he agrees with art an is having scummy points, and then try to push too out of no where, dodging any responsibility with artanis. His vote doesn't come in till after geript NRA post. So ve was fucked regardless. If they can work their way through claims half-decently, I'd expect them to use assassin on actual roles, not on VTs who picked things that scum doesn't want to talk about too much. Like, yes, maybe they're setting up targets for way in the future if they can't find anyone, but it's a game full of power roles and crap. People are going to claim, people are going to get outed, they're going to have juicier targets than using assassin KP on VTs. | ||
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Which strong townies have powerful roles could factor into that, but your assassin is never just shooting blindly. He's generally not going to fire at VTs, and ... he has no need to figure out "who not to shoot." He looks for claims, fires on the claimers, at least as I can figure it, rather than looking for "who do we want to shoot" and then figuring out what they might be. The process is different than with normal KP, because he has to be able to give their role or lose his power. It reduces or eliminates the need for him to know where not to shoot. Given that you're going to be gone and sleeping for a while, consider claiming? Slightly out of order, but if we're trying to get claims in TODAY then we need to get moving faster. | ||
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On April 11 2013 23:19 Mocsta wrote: Some of snb's posts come before there was a big push on VE iirc. Like, he was a constant "what is VE doing" but until geript came in and noted that he'd tried for NRA member and gotten VT, VE wasn't as big a focus. Double checked so as not to be an idiot here, and at the very least the first artanis/shelvocke/VE post comes like 7 hours before geript makes his NRA announcement.BTW Austin. Are u just reading the filter literally or taking into account the thread sentiment? Shevlocke wasn't getting lynched day1. It was either artanis or ve. In my opinion, your point 2 is snb giving a fleshed out summary post. ===== I'm going to bed. I'm not claiming my role outright. Its not my turn and bm hinted he may not be justice for whatever reason. So I am either Bloodycobbler, capitalist or vigilante. I don't think its important to known right now which one it is exactly. I either have 1 kp left, or a couple role checks. I prefer scum to be kept on toes. I think that, at that point, it was more artanis or shelvocke, but I'm also coloring that with me wanting to lynch shelvocke at that point, seeing that there was SOME support, and thinking that I could pick up another couple votes. | ||
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(1) Why the vote on sharrant? (2) If we still have an inventor alive, he hands you a magical potion that brings one of the N1 deaths back to life. Who do you use it on? (3) What do you think of mocsta this game. You've...taken issue with his posting style, but haven't really spoken about him as a player. Please flesh out some real, alignment-indicative thoughts about mocsta, and post them. To this thread. (4) What do you think of snb at the moment? | ||
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On April 12 2013 01:15 geript wrote: Stay tuned for future episodes of the young and the claiming.I only count 2 red check cops in OP yet 3 have claimed. Did I miss a random role somehow? It's possible, but need to see the specifics first. | ||
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Yeah, either that or an investigative bonus. | ||
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D1 checked sn0_man. DT gets alignment/role, and I got town blank. For now, I won't claim his role, but I currently am not worried that he's a gf or something. Poking back through the game, I can see what he did, and he did a town thing with his role. That also means that, if we want it, I can day vig for cycle 2. Was planning on medicing or veteraning tonight, but that's...kind of not an option anymore. So, we can "triple lynch," or I can play cowboy, or I can sit on the shot. | ||
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I am going to continue thinking about whether I want to shoot or not, and who, specifically, I want to shoot. I will consider input from certain folks in this game, although everyone is welcome to give it for funsies. | ||
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On April 12 2013 01:51 Keirathi wrote: You like vivax for scum?Personally I think you should shoot one of vivax/sharrant/OO, and we lynch the other two. They are literally the only people left that I don't have solid reasons why they are town. Also on my list...mocsta. | ||
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I have sn0's alignment and role. I am about to flip later today. If I'm mafia, you're more than welcome to bitch at sn0. However, when I'm town, you're going to realize that you've been in the weeds on this. Your claim was quite helpful to put attention on VE, and on the top of the list in general. I find you townie based on that, but it doesn't mean you ARE town. Caller USED HIS ROLE TO KILL SCUM and may have been mafia himself. Now, he's the sort of player who would do that as scum, but at the very least you need to realize that: (1) You're not 100% confirmed, and, more importantly (2) NOBODY CARES EVEN IF YOU'RE 100% CONFIRMED OR NOT BECAUSE THE GOAL OF THE GAME ISN'T "ESTABLISH SELF AS TOWN AND THEN BE UNHELPFUL AND RUDE We hunt scum. We keep thread legible. We work mothereffing together when possible. By sniping at sn0, you're making the thread less legible, you're wasting your time, you're wasting sn0's time in responding, you're wasting my time because I feel like herding cats today instead of scumhunting because I'm playing poorly this game blah blah blah. | ||
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On April 12 2013 01:58 Keirathi wrote: I will admit to not being a mocsta-expert here, but it's troubling me.Yea, I think Vivax is quite possibly scum. As far as Mocsta....meh. I wouldn't be *SUPER* surprised if he's scum, but I've had a town read on him the entire game. He's playing like I normally see him play as town; loud, abrasive, arguing all the wrong things, but (seemingly) genuinely thinking about the game in his own weird way. He is very loud and abrasive. He can play that way as town. Heck, it was one reason I thought he was mafia in Newbie 37, he was so obviously loud and abrasive when he didn't need to be. Also, he was scum that game. I don't like picking out certain qualities of his game to make him town or scum in that case, and it reminds me of JingleHell in Aperture 2. I completely threw him out as a scumread because he was being so obnoxious and useless, but he was doing it on purpose. I can see mocsta being able to play a certain way on purpose, to skate through the game. I remember fighting with him D1 over artanis. But when I look at the timings, gonzaw posts his case while mocsta is trying to push a rayn lynch. AFTER gonzaw posts his case, what happens? On April 07 2013 17:22 Mocsta wrote: Mocsta is now entirely on board with an artanis lynch. Mocsta doesn't even mention rayn. He's been pushing rayn, discussing rayn, trying to get votes on rayn, and drops it like it's hot once gonzaw's case pops up. In later posts he halfway stays on rayn, tries to draw associations between rayn and artanis, and then later is townie on rayn, but the speed with which he stops posting on one guy and picks up the artanis wagon reads scummy to me. It reads like scum says "Oh, that's not a bad case at all," it picks up some steam, and at least some of them have to jump on it. If you follow the rest of the day, mocsta goes from just sheeping Gonzaw's case to slowly arguing it more and more, adding the conviction stuff, and really...in some ways carrying the banner for the artanis lynch? IF he's scum, he's making sure everyone knows that he's on the artanis lynch plan, being very vocal and visible about it, in order to get the maximum cred from it. One way to read it. Not guaranteed.I just finished catching up on the thread. Agree with the points. At first I didnt mind him propelling himself into the thread with his RNG idea.. but i think that is the key to why he is scum. Reminds me of a scum game, where I had a lurker in my team; and i told him specifically to just post your thoughts into the middle of a convo, to stand out.. cos "scum dont do that". You are right Gonzaw, artanis doesnt have conviction in any idea that he pushes; everything is half-assed. ##Unvote ##Vote: Artanis[Xp] How does he deal with the VE stuff D1? On April 08 2013 12:27 Mocsta wrote: Tough predicament now regarding NRA. Thing is: Keirathi and his role recommendation post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=34#663 NRA is desired by both partiesl and I can see why. It gives you awesome defense as town/scum against Day Kill and Night Kill. It also acts as a great trap pick for the early draftees. ============= Geript, whilst I have really liked your play this game. I think the move to jump to a conclusion to vote VE is too haste and requires a more fastidious attitude. VE play has been odd this game - that is undeniable. But odd does not 100% equate scum. I liked your case a lot; but I love the Artanis[Xp] case and what it unraveled. Stay the course. VE is odd, the case is good, but it's too hasty and we need to just stay on Artanis. On April 08 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote: Again, "maybe scum is trying to get us to go after VE?" (which would indicate he was townie on VE except he doesn't appear to be). Nope. Stay the course. Artanis artanis artanis.Now anways, lets get this show back on track. Gonzaw was a good scum hit; the timing is what is interesting. Are they trying to force us onto VE, because it happened when we were talking about him? hmmm.. for now, i want to maintain the legacy Gonzaw started. We keep the lynch on Artanis[Xp] On April 08 2013 13:18 Mocsta wrote: The thread topic at the time was: Geript/VE NRA item. Which was potentially juicy enough to get a wagon off Artanis Im saying this all this, because if Artanis (who we are lynching) flips red.. im inclined to think VE is town. Think about what would happen if the thread lynches VE. They're STILL going to go after artanis too, nothing has painted artanis as town over the course of geript's claim and gonzaw getting shot. Mafia, at this point, CANNOT let VE be the day's only lynch. Mafia CANNOT allow VE to die by lynch with Artanis hanging in the wind and possibly some mafia members having taken a hard stance that Artanis is town. Heck, that fits with caller being mafia. Mafia NEEDS THE DAY TO END. They need a lynch on artanis, they need to get that cred, they need to protect VE. They didn't know we'd have a second lynch, and it would have (and did) ROYALLY fuck any plans to keep VE alive. At this point, they just can't save artanis because they've gone so hard on lynching him (again IF mafia didn't think they could get votes onto NOT artanis). Okay wait, I'm going to halt here. Does anyone see what I'm seeing? There's some more little stuff, niggling doubts about some of his posts, the way he's been so chummy with a lot of players, but...I really hate the timing on his artanis vote and then the way he plays out the rest of that day. We can discuss the other stuff later/shortly, and I'm crafting a narrative here, but...ack. I really like the narrative | ||
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On April 12 2013 02:26 Oatsmaster wrote: I don't much care about that comparison, though.Also most recent scum game, Personality 2, he was really lurky and didnt arouse anyones suspicion ANYWHERE near like this. I've seen him be spammy and active as scum. I've seen him be lurky as scum. So...neither one really makes me think anything. I read him more as a player who can recognize how he's posting and use it to suit his needs, ramping up spamminess/crappiness as needed when he's scum to derail the thread. In personality, he was super lurky D2 because he was in mason chat with prom. We used him to try to keep prom out of thread, and frankly we, as mafia, didn't NEED to do much. marv/foolishness and everything was spamming the thread so hard that we looked GOOD by not spamming. What's one thing that some folks learned in Personality 2? Spam the thread and you're town! Marv kept harping on how he had to be town because you couldn't post so much as mafia. Again, it fits the narrative I've built, but mocsta here has been spamming HARD. I really noticed it during D2, it's one reason I told him I'd quit reading his posts, because he got too spammy and dumb with them. In the back of my head were marv's comments, and how one way I'd play as scum from now on out is to spam hard hard hard and have that to fall back on. Really, a lot of mocsta's comments today have not been helpful in the least. Blah blah. There's a lot of me just interpreting everything to paint him scum now, because it fits so dang well with what I think a scum player might want to do in this game. | ||
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On April 12 2013 02:27 Keirathi wrote: I would have been convinced that someone would shoot/check artanis overnight. At the very least, even if someone does something to VE to confirm him being NRA, it means an additional townie kill, whether he gets lynched D2 or not.Austin: My problem with your narrative is that I think if scum could have gotten the lynch switched over to VE, then Artanis may have actually looked better today with a scum already flipped. AND they would still have a direct use KP. Maybe Artanis would have still gotten lynched today, but he almost certainly would have gotten another shot off too. I just think it would have been in scum's best interest to start pushing towards VE rather than Artanis. Someone visiting VE overnight much better for scum than someone visiting Artanis, no matter whether they're visiting with a bullet or a check. | ||
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On April 12 2013 02:36 Keirathi wrote: All true. I don't like snb for scum, and the list is starting to get a little shorter. More claims may help narrow this down, but right now I'm concerned with OO, mocsta, both sh players, and I'm sure there's someone that I'm just not seeing.The problem is that VE was already outed as quite possibly NRA. No one would have visited him. It would have been beyond dumb. I know that even if VE hadn't been lynched, I sure as hell wouldn't have checked him. For all intents and purposes, he was useless to the scum team with his role outed. And, if someone visited Artanis with a check instead of a shot, then he still has time during the day today to shoot someone. As long as he does it before he gets day-vigged. Geript had already claimed VT, RO had claimed framer, and its possible scum drafted a role cop too. He would have just needed to shoot as soon as the day started, and he was already more useful alive than VE would have been. The thing that gives me the most pause is mocsta rambling in the night phase about all these people becoming "confirmed town" - snb, sinani, shelvocke. I HATE calling people that as scum, but I'm also not comfortable adjusting my reads as scum, and mocsta may be more comfortable with that. Don't know. Blech. | ||
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Deconduo cannot. If he's town, he wouldn't lie about being janitor. If he's scum he wouldn't pick JV Palmar POSSIBLY, but I was convinced on D1 that Palmar was the emperor and that still feels quite possibly true - was scummy on VE, would like to take roles that encourage killing, and emperor gets a kill D1 PLUS gets to cause a double lynch later (and has to activate double lynch during the night, so even though he died he could be the cause of our double lynch). rayn is unknown. BM loves to troll and make things up and lay "traps" and whatever, but the whole bit where he knew caller was scum and was dancing around things made it feel like he's actually justice vigi. However, we'll see. | ||
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AND WHY DID MZ SHOOT ME IN THE FAAAAAAAAAAAACE. | ||
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On April 12 2013 02:35 Sn0_Man wrote: I was thinking... Has ANYBODY made sense of rayn's "last words"? THIS FEELS LIKE IT MIGHT BE IMPORTANT. Usually when I see stuff like this, it's junk like ... the weak doctors in Liquid City or whatever that game was, where they kept dying after protecting mafia and basically being DTs. The only role that makes any sense here though is rayn being...Ver? And PMing mocsta and pretty much only mocsta? I dunno. But mocsta does say that he didn't get anything from rayn, so ... grrrrr. | ||
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On April 12 2013 02:27 Keirathi wrote: I'm getting too spammy now, but I'm finally interested in something and I feel like I have license to mass post/respond since I'm dying.Austin: My problem with your narrative is that I think if scum could have gotten the lynch switched over to VE, then Artanis may have actually looked better today with a scum already flipped. AND they would still have a direct use KP. Maybe Artanis would have still gotten lynched today, but he almost certainly would have gotten another shot off too. I just think it would have been in scum's best interest to start pushing towards VE rather than Artanis. Start reading mocsta's filter in the middle of page 11 for the annotated time period. mocsta DOES try to push things onto VE after having this long conversation with artanis, who he's 100% convinced is scum just a little bit earlier. He's also got a lot of back and forth with caller that...again, fits my stupid narrative and I just want him to be scum so baaaaaaaaaaaaaad so I can be right about something this game. | ||
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On April 12 2013 03:00 Sn0_Man wrote: Yeah, the decon bit is wonky. It's odd for decon to claim janitor if he actually was, nearly as odd as using janitor while being a friggin townie.Mocsta killed deconduo. That seems pretty townie although you could explain it as mafia taking an easy shot. Why did he claim it though? I think there are better shots today TBH (although you really don't answer to anybody right now ). I've come around on decon definitely being mafia for using janitor. It's just such a weird thing to claim it and say you used it and give a particular reason WHY. Unless you're trying to screw up town's math, which he would be doing, which makes sense, which...again, grrrr. | ||
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On April 12 2013 03:05 Vivax wrote: (1) I WAS SCUM IN THAT GAME WITH MOCSTA. I KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING THERE, I WAS HYPERAWARE OF WHAT HE WAS DOING THERE.Mocsta is not scum he doesn't do abrasive shit as scum, go read Personality 2, he was nice and reasonable, and he didn't try to jump into your face with what he had to say. Lynch ObviousOne. (2) Mocsta absolutely can be abrasive as scum. In the same vein as your comment, go read Newbie 37. He was not nice and reasonable, he DID jump into your face, and he did a great job of executing the "destroy the thread with spam/harrassment" scum plan. Yes, a player will have tendencies as scum and as town. But anyone who mentions says "mocsta not scum because personality 2" is being lazy/close-minded/wrong. I have pointed you towards a specific game that you can find to see that you are wrong if you believe mocsta always plays scum like he did in personality 2. Furthermore, you are arguing with someone WHO WAS SCUM WITH MOCSTA IN PERSONALITY 2. As that game wore on, we had a very particular strategy, and we did not need to spam the thread or be abrasive, because TOWN was taking care of that. Heck. I was scum that game and only looked townie because I kept telling townies to quit crapping in the thread. That's how bad it was. Scum did not NEED to kill the thread that game. | ||
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On April 12 2013 03:07 Oatsmaster wrote: Austin, I tend to think that recent scum games, are close to what a player would do when he rolls scum, rather than past scum games a while ago. Newbie 37 started on February 11 TL time. It less than 2 months old. It is not particular far away, and was within about ~3 weeks of Personality 2. | ||
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If you played differently in Ego than another scum game of yours, that supports the idea that there is no single way that a player plays scum --> i.e. scumMocsta is not necessarily passive mocsta. Also, what is this number of games thing? As best I can tell, mocsta played...one game in between those two at most? It's okay to look at game x but not a game that's two games behind x? It's okay to look at someone's MOST recent scumgame, but not their second most recent? | ||
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On April 12 2013 03:21 Oatsmaster wrote: Okay, I agree with this. But the very fact that your view on the game changes and your playstyle changes means that you can't just go "he was quiet in personality and he's not quiet here so he's not scum." Like...this:I mean that when you play more games, your view on the game changes and your playstyle changes, same as your meta. So games that are more than 5 games behind this one is not VERY ACCURATE in determining meta in my opinion, especially with the game I JUST played. My mindset was totally different between LIX and Ego, and I assume Mocsta's one is different between Newbie and Personality. Also newbie games play differently because you feel differently about the players in the game. On April 12 2013 02:26 Oatsmaster wrote: Also most recent scum game, Personality 2, he was really lurky and didnt arouse anyones suspicion ANYWHERE near like this. does not match up with someone being able to change their views on the game and playstyle. That's what I'm getting at. Not that personality 2 isn't important at all, but that it's not the be-all-end-all. If you actually believe that playstyle can change, then you're fine to put little stock in that newbie game, but you're not fine to put oodles of stock into personality. | ||
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If meapak DOES have a silent nuke, it would have KILLED SOMEONE. Therefore, IF he had a silent nuke and used it, he killed either artanis or VE (the only people to die at the end of the day). They both flipped mafia. So IF there's a scary ol' silent nuke, it means he used it to kill mafia... I don't terribly have a problem with someone thinking I was scum at the start of D2. I don't love my play up until that point, and could see nuking me if I were someone else. I don't find his play super anti-town in terms of nuke use except that he didn't check the thread a final time before posting what he'd been writing up. | ||
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On April 12 2013 03:45 yamato77 wrote: Here's the thing. Maybe he's lazy mafia. If he's mafia, he voluntarily just didn't shoot D1. That seems like a poor choice. That's something that I would flag as saying, "Hey...hold up. This guy looks like he might be mafia, but he used his role in an odd manner for someone who is mafia." I would second guess my read on him. What's he done today? Seriously, the dude is LAZY MAFIA. I've been saying it all game, and he's done absolutely fucking nothing. Then I would go, "Wait a minute, snb claimed a cop check on MZ." If snb is lying, he's taking a risk that there are no other whatever-cops above him on the chart. A small risk, but a risk. And maybe MZ is a gf, that's a possibility. But again, it's SOME/SLIGHT/DECENT evidence that MZ might not be mafia. Then, there are a couple other players with LESS in their favor, imo. What has sharrant or shelvocke done that makes them less likely mafia than MZ? OO? Mocsta? geript? There are a boatload of players who have done very little today, almost ALL of us have done very little of consequence. You are tunneled in on these little weird things and need to expand your view. You want or wanted to kill BM, despite claiming that you picked justice vigi and didn't get it. He seems like the only person who fits the bill, and that means that, if he's town, he's shooting at mafia, and if he's mafia, he's shooting at mafia or dying. If he's actually justice vigi, that is ACTUALLY the worst possible lynch you could come up with. So...quit being tunneled in. It hasn't served you particularly well in some recent games, and right now it's not doing you any good. | ||
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Decon and caller are unknowns, and yeah, decon could still be mafia. We don't know. If he's mafia, mocsta almost certainly not. If he was town, mocsta could be mafia because...mafia ANYONE shooting townie anyone is never something that doesn't make sense. mocsta went and made a case on him just before deadline, shot him, so it makes perfect sense as any alignment, and decon's flip doesn't matter (if no janitor used, decon either flips mafia (I shot mafia guys!) or town (Oops, I really thought he was scum guys!)). That list is fine, you've just been very vocal about mason logs and some other things today. People being masoned doesn't make them town. People seeming like townies in mason chat doesn't make them town. But us having the logs doesn't feel super duper important right at this moment. | ||
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On April 12 2013 05:35 Keirathi wrote: We'll see. It's possible that the crumbs are him noting he's gonna shoot someone. If he just crumbed the shot/KP, then it's still a scummy announcement, especially as one reason he seems to not want to claim is that BC could be lurking, when he wants to pretend he might be BC despite the fact that he almost certainly could not have known deconduo's role at that point in the game.He also said he breadcrumbed it. I mean, maybe he breadcrumbed all 3, but it at least gives some credence to the fact that he was thinking about it before the mass-claim plan started. | ||
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(sn0 still very, very likely townie due to role usage, unless the flips get really wonky) | ||
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On April 12 2013 07:08 geript wrote: Claim already Sno. I do not understand your play today at all if you are town | ||
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On April 12 2013 07:39 geript wrote: Why do I need to argue your points? Most vets I've seen have completely misread newbs actions. It's ok Kei, you can win with me once people actually sheep me. I have information you do not. I will die momentarily, and you'll know I was town and not lying about it. So knock it off and trust that you are almost certainly wrong here. | ||
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2-3 man listcheck, 1 shot priest power, other assorted nonsense | ||
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Something that is day use or used n3 but reports to thread maybe better. Don't want someone who gets the thing snipped off before whatever s invented can be used | ||
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On April 12 2013 10:31 Mocsta wrote: At no point has everyone crapped on you.No.. just annoyed Its pretty demotivating when you are trying to engage people in discussion and constantly provoke people to actually think. And then everyone just shits all over you. Lastly, Geript play has really been alerting me all cycle. His only strong opinion with foundation has been VE, who he tunneled relentlessly. And he has that stupid post, where he calls me town based on an alignment null post. Later, he regresses and associates me with scum. And then there is this stupid bickering with Sn0, who is prob CPR Medic based on claims thus far. If im alive night 2, im role checking Geript. I have some thoughts that you may be mafia. I still do. But I met some serious resistance in thread. So...join geript in the knock it off club. Ain't pity party time (and, because I'm mildly tunnel-y, I totally intepret the pity party as a scummy thing trying to keep me from shooting you). If you're town, you did play a solid town game for a while, but seemed to get a bit disorganized overnight and during this cycle, maybe because we got so far ahead after the D1 lynch. Oh well, it happens. | ||
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Only thing I'm super considering is shooting obviousone, as a prelynch almost, since it appears that he's going down. But I don't love having stalled this long, only to dick with the double lynch this late in the cycle. Frankly, I don't love my play during the nuke day as a whole. Not enough scumhunting, too much crappy play and disinterest in game. | ||
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On April 12 2013 10:41 Mocsta wrote: At least ppl gave you resistance. I just got ignored. There is a big difference Austin. I can handle the being ignored; because at least people like Kei have kept going back/forth with me. But when you get called scummy for trying to generate meaningful conversation; that is truly annoying. I gave you plenty of resistance yesterday, and resistance again today on something (snb?). This day as a whole has also been much more ignore-y when someone brought concerns to light. Again, if you're town, you played a solid D1. Whatever, it's not time for postgame, so I'ma shut up about this. | ||
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On April 12 2013 10:44 Vivax wrote: Lol why would you shoot OO at this point that'd be dumb. Because it gives us more information to work with for the double lynch, and it appears ENTIRELY unlikely that he survives anyhow. Except there's not much information to be gained from that shot, much more from other shots, but I don't want to go around blasting random folks. | ||
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On April 12 2013 10:59 Vivax wrote: No, but if nobody caught RO straight up calling sn0_man out as the inventor, sn0_man admitting it, and half a page of discussing WHAT HE SHOULD INVENT, then ... I dunno how to better put the pieces together for them.Did austin just claim scum? Applause for Sharrant going down like a boss. There's always the chance that the someone missing things is scum and the inventions can be a big help. Again, especially for geript, this is why sn0 is almost certainly town, much more likely town than any other claim but justice vigi. As the top spot, he could have NOT invented, just stolen the role and claimed to be CPR doc holding shots or whatever. He could have invented something that wasn't pro-town (assuming a DT check pro-town, and since you can't trick folks with your inventions it is). Instead, he invented something that seems pro-town, which indicates heavily that he's town. All the invention ideas thrown out later were pro-town. So...EVEN IF HE'S SCUM, HE'S STUCK MAKING PRO-TOWN INVENTIONS. But he's almost certainly not. Much more likely that we've got fake DT claims, or scum america, or scum mason, or scum plenty of things. But certainly not justice vigi, and probably not scum inventor. Ta da. | ||
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On April 12 2013 11:06 Mocsta wrote: ?OK.. can we focus on a consolidated vote pls I going to assume you shooting (unclaimed OO) then.. shevlocke, for VT as showtime which DT checker do we want to lynch so far we have austin/SnB/keirath/Sharrant keirathi is off the block as far as i am concerned, boviously so is austin So SnB or Sharrant? I am not shooting. ALTHOUGH THIS IS ONE REASON WHY I'M STILL FRIGGING TEMPTED TO SHOOT YOU. WE ARE NOT LYNCHING PEOPLE BASED ON THEIR CLAIMS. NOBODY IS GETTING LYNCHED FOR PICKING X OR Y. PEOPLE ARE GETTING LYNCHED FOR BEING SCUMMY, OR BECAUSE FOLKS ARE SHEEPING, OR BECAUSE ... I DON'T ACTUALLY PARTICULARLY KNOW. BUT NOBODY IS LYNCHING PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE THEY PICKED A CERTAIN THING. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. YOU CANNOT ACTUALLY HAVE JUST SUGGESTED THAT WE WANT TO LYNCH BASED ON CLAIMS CAN YOU? AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. | ||
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On April 12 2013 11:11 Mocsta wrote: It pulls some people off the table. It possibly catches scum. It forces scum to commit to a story now, rather than later, if they want to fakeclaim. What was the point of claiming if the intention wasnt to lynch. Maybe geript had terminally low blood pressure, and dangling sn0 claiming in front of him all day helped to raise his blood pressure and save his life. EVEN IF THE POINT WAS TO LYNCH PEOPLE WHY WOULD WE JUST GO "LET'S LYNCH PEOPLE WHO CLAIMED DETECTIVE ROLES"? That doesn't make sense to me why, if we were lynching on only claims, we'd lynch ... a specific role that was claimed? | ||
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On April 12 2013 11:16 Mocsta wrote: Who is we, where did this happen, where were there too many DT roles, and who did not provide a hard claim?Because we came to the conclusion there was too many dt roles we asked for hard dt claims & didnt get them I forgot to add Vivax as a dt claimer. | ||
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH | ||
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Anyone who thinks RO is full-on confirmed based on role is being a sillybilly. Same with all DTs, claimed VTs, and other nonsense. But roles like justice vigi AND INVENTOR are almost certainly town, given that they have to play pro-town or they die. | ||
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Vote rigger sounds all mafia-y, but my character is a politician and that was the role I looked at if I was picking within-role, so I don't think choosing that makes you mafia. It's basically KP the day you rig the votes, and extra lynches on the days you use it to multi-lynch, so it's not inherently anti-town, even though dicking with votes often seems scummy. Shelvocke seems likely town based on the D1 artanis/shelvocke/VE stuff, but ... THIS IS A RIDICULOUS AMOUNT OF INACTIVITY AND ORIGINAL THOUGHT from someone who is smurfing. I have never seen a smurf just bury his head this much and I hate hate hate hate hate how the votes on D1 went because otherwise he'd be standing head and shoulders above a lot of people. Ugh. My apologies for my play this cycle. Already having a bad game + getting nuked meant that I just didn't work into the right mindset to play out the day. Didn't hunt enough, wasn't active enough throughout, and ... blech. Oh well, something to improve on. Actually not shooting. | ||
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I'd agree with syllo on the role stuff, in fact. From reading the other PYP games, scum is at a huge disadvantage these games compared to normal, because they can actually get 100% caught based on claims/roles sometimes. Even in a themed game they usually have safe fakeclaims, or town-aligned character names, or something like that. Here there are NO protections like that. As best I can tell, some of the roles that were added were meant to address that somewhat - BC, thief, roleswapper, to make claiming less bad for scum, and I'd be interested to see how this might have played out if scum had gone for thief/roleswapper, traded some early KP for some messing with the roles, although, tbh, we didn't get much out of the claims except for "injustice vig." I don't think I'd have been quite as townie on D2 if I weren't set to die. I do think that Keirathi's check and reasoning on me made sense, but I also have played with him and could kind of understand his desire to check me under the circumstances. I could see that making less sense if you haven't played with him/us. Sorry for not scumhunting more D2, I felt like I was active but not actually pushing the game forward and I didn't use my soon-to-be-guaranteed-towniness as much as I should. My b. And yeah, the nuke and reaction, especially hoping I wouldn't be nuked because of misspelling my name, was actually kind of funny. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 18 2013 16:28 geript wrote: The way I was viewing it, he felt town because of his check but also just...nobody was really sharing your suspicions. And keirathi was either faking a check on my for no good reason or to save a scumbuddy, because there's just not much reason for him to fake check town as scum if he's not a DT (risks there being a real NKVD agent).Can people tell me what I obviously missed about why Kei was town? How do you find a way to overlook a bad early game to focus on the obvious other points? So if I flip scum off the nuke, maybe he just got caught. If I flip town off the nuke, then it's LIKELY that he's not faking his check and had good reason to check me and is town. Honestly, that's what I was looking at with both sn0 and keirathi. I had information on sn0 that I didn't want to give out - knowing he was an inventor, knowing that he invented a DT check instead of KP (scum probably invents KP or lynchproof vests or something less townie). My flip would confirm that I actually had that information, and would tell you something about keirathi as well. At the very least, then, when I was 100% slated to die at the end of the cycle, I don't think you should be trying to build and push reads on keirathi or sn0, because you're about to get guaranteed information there given that janitor was already blown and I'd flip. You were discarding information that would become public knowledge, discarding my play during D2, and you thinking they were both scummy sort of required you thinking that I was scum and lying about stuff, when I was going to die and flip and get revealed and all the lying would be worthless. No real reason for scum to be active and lie, because it gets them NOTHING at the end of cycle when the nuke hits. Tbh, kei was mildly suspicious D1 to me. I didn't have a fully town vibe on him until seeing his check on me, and seeing some of his posts D2. To me, beyond reasons he was town, there were just reasons not to worry about him during D2, because if I were actually green come the flips, his actions wouldn't have made sense as scum. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 06 2013 11:04 austinmcc wrote: I'll point it out postgame if you'd like. For now I'm not going to. rayn, you asked me this and I didn't respond. Also I sort of ended up 100% wrong. BM got active at some point D1 just flinging around scum accusations based on associations and how people were acting towards each other in thread. X defended Y, Z noted that A was scum if something particular happened, blah blah blah - + Show Spoiler + On April 06 2013 08:29 Bill Murray wrote: Artanis is scum with Keirathi GG On April 06 2013 08:36 Bill Murray wrote: VE and Geript look bad over an associative tell that actually changes my FoS On April 06 2013 10:24 Bill Murray wrote: FoS Restraining Order VE is town and scum are trying to get a D1 lynch on him On April 06 2013 10:36 Bill Murray wrote: this looks like restraining order is chastising his mafia partner here if RO is scum, so is OO He also did it a couple other times, calling out snb as mafia if someone else were mafia, etc. I read those posts as very townie because the thread wasn't super scumhunty when he was posting, it was before Gonzaw's case and a lot of the actual discussion and voting on D1. I really liked that someone was coming in and accusing a bunch of people in this weird associative manner, because I was thinking that if he ever actually hit on scum, or anything true, maybe there would be an odd reaction that we could pick out later. Like, if he actually finds an odd interaction between two scumbuddies partway through D1, maybe they overreact or something. I think I overvalued what might fall out of his accusations, but I also made the same error that I did with my read on Artanis. BM was throwing around all these scumreads, making all these associations, but didn't actually do anything with any of them. Over time, as he didn't attempt to draw any conclusions from what he shook out of his posts, I should have been less and less townie on him, because it was that whole lack of conviction/pushing thing that mocsta was riding me on over artanis. But in general, I felt that I had seen BM post like this before when he was town, and I thought that the overall effect of those posts was townie - stir things up, maybe make scum nervous, maybe create associations to mine later on in the game. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 18 2013 22:33 marvellosity wrote: I saw his reasoning behind each of them, based on what posts those players had just made in threads, at least...saw how he was drawing his associations.Those things are all pretty null to start with unless they're pursued / reasons given. But yeah, definitely less townie than I gave him credit for given the lack of pursuit. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
I dunno how much of the crappy play this game can be attributed to taking a big lead early on, also. It shouldn't, but gets you (or at least me) into the mindset of the game being somewhat easy to win and not requiring the normal amount of actual work. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 19 2013 00:43 Caller wrote: Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. You and Palmar didn't even flip town. Practically mafia, imo.stop talking about how bad these guys were and more about how awesome me + goznaw + palmar were NEED EPEEN | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Only one person grabbed JOAT which was loaded. Only one person tried for inventor (so many people spoke up about it that it looks like almost everyone thought it wasn't worth trying). Nobody else went for copycat, which I remembered being something people cared about in PYP2. Nobody went for Ver. Really surprising. I kind of wondered how a role that either just (1) gets told what roles were leftover and unclaimed or (2) gets told what roles were leftover and unclaimed, and gets to pick a role from that list would work. It's possible you could only give that to mafia, because it would make the game much harder for them if it were in town hands probably, but it seemed like a role that would be super powerful within the confines of a PYP game and yet could be set to not actually take any direct action, just get information. | ||
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