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On March 20 2013 05:05 DoYouHas wrote:
@Vivax - You are ignoring the obvious explanation for the supposed slip you are trying to nail BH with.
"Okay so the hosts are dragging their feet with setting up the Mason QT(So BH made one himself) so I'll drop some stuff in here(here being the QT BH just made) since I have to step out for a moment."
It is far more probable than your theory that BH made a QT, the hosts were made aware of it, and they just stuck with that QT for the BH-GK masoning. The slip you found simply isn't.
The thing is that's a POSSIBLE explanation, but it's not the one that BH has offered. The Mafia QT slip seems completely possible as well. I had similar thoughts as you, that there could be an explanation like the one you mentioned, but I wanted to wait to see what his actual explanation was first, instead of handing the excuse to him like you just now did.
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The point is that there's a possibility of it, so scum is going to be more apprehensive about revealing the name of a fake-claimed role. Which is why I just want VE to say it, so I don't have to wonder why he's NOT.
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On March 20 2013 05:13 WaveofShadow wrote:
EBWOP: we all thought Nightmare was scum at the start of the game.
You have also sort of flip-flopped on whether you find BH scummy or null-scum or what have you, so I'm trying to divine a true alignment read from you on him.
On BH, I don't know. There's a lot about his play that I don't like, but the content of the QTs (not the one I'm in now; he has a single post in it from when he made it where he wants to know my reads and if I'll help him lynch TPS) seems to show active sleuthing. I was hoping to get a firmer read on him through the QT today.
I think that the non-contributors are more suspect at this point, and have voted for Wiggles accordingly, for his refusal to present and promote any reads at all. It's tempting to react to and analyze only the active players in the thread, but there's been a lot of disappearance. For example, at what point do we expect Mocsta and Ace to lay their full suspciions down? I thought Ace would be like a Marvellosity type where he lays out confident reads on everybody and breaks apart everyone's bad logic, but he's had zero thread presence since replacing in. Mocsta has just been annoying and then disappeared, although I think he is asleep in Australia or something.
Comic's case against VE which is actually just a hardcore defense of BH is a little odd, and I wonder what you think about it.
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On March 20 2013 05:14 Vivax wrote:
If BH could just make a qt for himself why did he wait for the hosts to make another one?
I don't know if this means much, but the creator for the QT I'm in now is DRHEL. For some reason I doubt that the host would allow someone to make their own QT. I've played more newbie games than not; is it ever a practice for the players to make their own QT in a normal game?
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VE, what do you think about naming your role? What is your reaction to that?
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On March 20 2013 05:24 WaveofShadow wrote:
K glurio. GL buddy.
I'll look into cosmic's VE case again, but in the end I think it just makes me assume that one of either VE or BH has to be scum. The super hard defense of GK by BH makes me think if he's scum then likely GK is too btu I don't know how likely that is, despite my conspiracy theory and the QT 'scumslip.'
Speaking of which I remember harboring concerns about VE's town circle earlier on D1, but now we're on D2 and we haven't heard anything. Was it a joke or what?
VE at one point said that the whole SAST thing was merely a tool and that he wasn't actually serious about it. I will have to go through his filter to find it but am about to leave work now.
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I like that WoS case a lot.
One thing worth noting about his defensiveness is that in the other game I played with WoS, I made a fake case on him, and he was SUPER apologetic. Like, he just said "sorry guys, I must be playing this wrong" and pretty much rolled over. He was town.
This game, he has been very emotional in his defensiveness, using poor logic (I'm always a mislynched townie, therefore I will always be a mislynch). He wasn't very defensive at ALL when he was a townie threatened by mislynch.
And the Wiggle vote really cements the case; there were already a few votes on him before WoS went for it.
I don't know why I'd forgotten about that scum slip; I think all of these pseduo-slips that keep getting dismissed made me intentionally dismiss all of them? I don't know. But the fact remains there are very few town reasons for him to mis-compose his sentence in the way that he did.
##Unvote
##Vote WaveofShadow
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If Ace is so amazing why hasn't he solved this game yet
And I think the butthurt isn't strong enough yet, Mocsta needs to make an appearance and hurt some butts
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On March 20 2013 14:30 Mocsta wrote:
DP,
This can be put to rest pretty easily. I apologise for jumping the gun and making thread comments without reading even 1/4 of Day 1. Thats pure laziness on my behalf, and there is no excuse for it.
Mocsta, please tell me you've read the entire thread by now. This post was from a bit ago, and you've since spent a bunch of time reformatting logs, so surely you've read the thread by now? I just think you should stop posting so much if you haven't even read the entire thread. You've made some good points but you're also casting suspicion around a lot of places, which makes me uncomfortable if you haven't done due diligence yet.
The 180 on Wiggles is definitely suspicious, and I think that WoS has to answer for that. I'll admit I was going to unvote when I saw his impassioned defenses to nearly every single attacker, but sciberbia's point about Wiggles being one of his top town reads makes the move look especially scummy -- not only was it the leading wagon at the time, but it's someone he had a town read on, and he did it only after people asked him to go after scum.
I feel good keeping my vote where it is for now, and think we should lynch WoS today unless he can persuade otherwise. But I wanted to draw attention to an interesting post in the meantime:
On March 20 2013 13:47 cosmicomics wrote:
WaveofShadow, could you tone down on the swearing please? It can turn people off (including townies), which will in turn fuel this bandwagon against you, and the worst kind of wagon is one where it is town pushed.
I think it would be most beneficial to everyone if you could consolidate your posting and present your defense against kita's main case. Or build a strong case of your own on somebody. Because right now it is getting more difficult to read you and you are giving scum / good intentioned townies more fuel.
I'll be looking over your meta, the case and the posts in interest in the meantime.
I don't like the nannying coming from a player who's been mostly inactive, showing up only recently to create a stance where he looks like a rational pro-town player and the guy everyone's already suspecting looks like an irrational scum player. This post comes after at least four different people have gone after WoS, and WoS has made responsive posts to each of them.
I just think that there are a lot more useful things that cosmic could have chimed in on than the fact that WoS is swearing -- I mean, what does he think about the actual content of his defenses?
The other thing about cosmicomics is that his most substantive post is a huge case against VE, who had just claimed Vet. Only once does he address that the person he's trying to lynch has claimed vet, and that's at the very end when he merely quotes Ace's hypothetical question as to why a townie would claim vet. There is no argumentative substance; the majority of it is actually just a defense of Wade Fell (BH). I find it odd that he completely dismisses the most obvious and powerful town tell for VE within his case, except for quoting a single line from the most veteran player in the game and using that as the argument.
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On March 20 2013 22:46 WaveofShadow wrote:
Meta aside, you guys are forcing me so I give up this time.
Looking way too much into shit that isn't there and I can't go through 2 pages of posts and try to turn you off of all of it.
I was going to wait until later tonight but I guess it doesn't matter now.
Maybe one of these mafia games I'll actually learn how to play.
It's up to you guys, but I'm dead by the end of N2 anyway. If you don't kill me mafia will now.
It's not "up to you guys," it's up to you to not look scummy and help us find scum. Whatever you have to do in order to accomplish that, go ahead, but it's your job, not ours.
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On March 20 2013 23:19 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 23:17 DarthPunk wrote:
Mocsta. How far into the thread are you? Well before WoS made his post, iw as reading in peace so p14. Cos ppl keep talking to me, its now only p15 perhaps i should jsut stop refereshing and read the whole night.. actually i will jsut do that. im sick of not knowing the status quo.
Yes, NOW go read the thread, now that Ace has called you scum.
But you feel okay actually voting for people and calling people scum without having actually read the thread? That is horrible.
What really makes me mad about this is the fact that you spent time reformatting those logs so that other people could analyze them, but you've only read 15 pages of content. Yet you still feel confident enough to call multiple people scum, case suspicions on several other people, and then bounce as soon as someone calls you scum.
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Evidence that WoS is telling the truth about blue role:
On March 17 2013 02:41 WaveofShadow wrote:
I'm not familiar to heavily themed games but what makes me wonder here about the setup is the sheer number of roles. 17 to be exact. Are these all going to be roles with power?
You only ask this question if your own role is one with power. At the time I wondered if it was just scum blue-hunting, but this comment leads me to believe that WoS is telling the truth.
I want to know why Ace thought WoS was town.
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On March 20 2013 23:33 Mocsta wrote:
its because i realised im not helping town by making comments without reading the whole thread. If WoS claim is legit, i need to figure out who i want to push for lynch as an alternative. that means I have to re-read the whole thread, and build a full case on whoever. At this stage, most likely BH, but i dunno whats gonna happen when i read pages 20-40 for the first time. Hence why im disappearing.
See ya
Wow, I am such a dick for calling you out for this when you 100% agree with me, I was obviously way out of line
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Yeah, breadcrumbs aren't things that you announce and tell others to waste their time finding if you are town. You highlight them to show off your genius and confirm your role in order to help town.
And there's always a chance you get medic-saved, so no reason to quit trying because you assume mafia will kill you tonight anyway. Play to your wincon WoS
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Wait, so Wave, you can DT somebody and you learn their role and their alignment?
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So you know the name of TPS's role? I don't think there's any harm in revealing the name of the role, and then TPS can confirm whether that's his name or not.
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On March 20 2013 23:51 Vivax wrote:
Zarepath why do you keep asking people scummy questions about their rolenames and roles they don't concern you AT ALL, if you are town.
It concerns me if a red Eye can get away with pretending to be blue. He's been incredibly vague his entire role claim, and his breadcrumb isn't actually a breadcrumb. He could have taken any sentence he said about TPS on N1 and said "I was going to say this phrase every time I checked someone."
It's true his read on him changed, but his read changed on a lot of people (Wiggles) for seemingly no reason.
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You didn't have to make up an elaborate scheme, you just had to make something up when you were going to get lynched and needed to find someone it could look like you'd breadcrumbed. I can't imagine that would be hard to do.
You were slow in actually claiming, in presenting your breadcrumbs, and have only been antagonistic the entire process. It's almost as if you were deliberately delaying while you found something you could present as a breadcrumb. I thought that breadcrumbs in non-newbie games were supposed to be really obvious things in retrospect, like using certain capitals or a cipher or whatever.
I don't see what town loses if you claim the name of TPS's role (you don't have to say its power or anything, if it has one or not), and he can say "Yes, that's right." Your breadcrumb wasn't convincing and you still haven't explained your switch on Mr. Wiggles, even though he was one of your strongest town reads. I think it's fine to require more proof.
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We just want to know the name.
As far as the mason chat, it's going pretty awful:
+ Show Spoiler +zarepath 03-19-2013 10:17 PM ET (US) EDIT DELETE I like the case on WoS a lot right now. His slip is pretty similar to TPS's slip, actually. I wonder if there's something there. 11 zarepath 03-19-2013 10:16 PM ET (US) EDIT DELETE Honestly, I think even if you're onto something, nobody will listen to you because it looks like you are tunneling him and you've been fairly abrasive with VE and TPS. I think it would go a long way if you were to list some other people you also thought to be scum, and mentioned why, and then explained why your scum read on TPS is still the best read. 10 Blazinghand 03-19-2013 09:36 PM ET (US) so that slip from TPS about coag's alignment imo seals it for me. his last post or so has been more reasonable, but there's no good explanation for that slip other than "TPS is scum and knows coag is town". I'll be continuing to push him. I'm pretty sure I can convince people at this point 9 Blazinghand 03-19-2013 09:34 PM ET (US) On March 20 2013 10:33 Coagulation wrote: the butt hurt in this thread is getting thick. I can hardly walk in it. assholes and elbows deep in butt hurt rofl 8 zarepath 03-19-2013 07:17 PM ET (US) EDIT DELETE Yeah, no problem. I'm down with talking more except you were busy at the same time that I was free, so we couldn't really discuss things. I'm open to talk more later but nwo I have to go do some stuff. Ask me any private Q's you want in the meantime if you want. 7 Blazinghand 03-19-2013 05:06 PM ET (US) Also zare you don't seem to get the idea behind this QT. I'm probably one of the best scumhunters on TL. Although if I agree on reads I would appreciate your help, the purpose of this QT is to see what your thought process is like, and to get better insight into what you think. You are not my top town-read, you are just a townread I have that a lot of people think are scum. Since I'm already outed to the thread, it makes the most sense to mason you and try to learn more about your thought process. 6 Blazinghand 03-19-2013 05:00 PM ET (US) DrH was being a slow piece of crap and not setting up the QT between me and GK very quickly. He PMed me and told me to set it up myself and send him the link. I did so, but I he didn't reply (and neither did Oats) and GK didn't post in the thread, so I wrote up a post and stepped out. Later, DrH PMed the link to GK and we used the QT I set up. 5 zarepath 03-19-2013 12:49 PM ET (US) EDIT DELETE Are you following the thread at all? They're pulling a quote from your logs that makes it look like the first line wasn't written in the Messenger QT. How did that happen? 4 zarepath 03-19-2013 10:44 AM ET (US) EDIT DELETE Yeah, I'm just not seeing TPS as scum. He's too assertive and active. There are plenty of other people who look way more suspect, like TestSubject, layabout, Mr. Wiggles, and Trance. 3 zarepath 03-19-2013 09:06 AM ET (US) EDIT DELETE Honestly, you were one of my scum reads until I read all this Messenger stuff, and after reading this QT and before reading the other ones, I thought this was highly suspect -- if you want help lynching your top scum read, why do you pick the townie with the least amount of credibility? Right now I'm going through all the filters to group my reads and present them to the thread, to hopefully get myself some more town cred. Hopefully I'll see something about TPS that makes me agree with you and we can work it out. I'll tell you my reads before I post them up there if you want. 2 Blazinghand 03-19-2013 03:31 AM ET (US) I'm heading to bed and will be back in thread in ~9-10 hours. 1 Blazinghand 03-19-2013 03:16 AM ET (US) I'll keep it short and simple: this QT lasts until the end of the day. I think you're town, but there is a strong current of lynch against you. If you die, it happens, but the most important thing is to use your time alive as best you can. I won't be posting the logs of this QT except with your permission, or to save one of us from a lynch. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18055501I like how you're thinking here- I like how you think in general, fearlessly and townie. I've updated my case against TPS, and I'd like to know who your top scumreads are, if TPS is among them and whether you'd be interested in collaborating with me to get him lynched. If we both share our though processes with each other, we can get better reads on each other. Do not claim your role to me.
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What makes you so certain that there aren't any other role names that are also green VT?
The issue I have with this is that his breadcrumb frankly sucked and could eaisly have been completely dug-up to "prove" himself blue, and while others are okay with this, there is no way that it's proof.
Either he says the name of the role now and we can move on and look at other people, or he has to report each day what he looked at and did.
You have a point, Mocsta, about the name of the role possibly being a power tell -- but how are we supposed to keep our scum targets from fake claiming like this every time we're about to lynch them? This whole claim has been done slowly, bitterly, and with vague details.
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EPT
