EPTTL Mafia LX - Page 6
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On February 28 2013 16:18 Aquanim wrote: tl;dr - baiting scum to attack you (in a way which will expose them as scum) by making an easily attackable post is a conceivable town tactic. This is an amazing tactic, I wish I had done it. waitaminute... | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On February 28 2013 16:25 VisceraEyes wrote: Frankly the fact that he put so much effort into looking into Vivax for you rather than giving Vivax a once over and getting immediately on looking for scum on his terms speaks volumes in my opinion. I burned almost two hours on that, it's break time. I have two names in mind I'll look at when I return, but it's not going to be as comprehensive since, well, I'm probably dead tonight anyway and 4 hours for two cases doesn't jive for me when I could just sleep. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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ObviousOne
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On February 28 2013 16:41 VisceraEyes wrote: Nonono you're misunderstanding me. THE EFFORT speaks volumes not the action. He put ALL THAT EFFORT into reading Vivax' filter and pouring over meta and whatever the fuck...for a townread...for you. It looks scummy to me. Why not spend that "2 hours" on putting together a case against someone? He's under heavy attack, he needs to find scum. One of the major points against him is that he's had like no scum reads. I looked at Obvious' post because it was new and commented on it. There's a vast difference. Well, why not make some effort to read someone at all, meta included, to get a better read on them, especially someone as volatile as Vivax who seems to have a history of violence with various people on the forums here? I didn't really see what some of you guys saw about him D1 that made him super scummy so it seemed like a reasonable request to get a better read not only for myself but to potentially clear up some misunderstandings about his play if it was within my power. I'm not saying I'm 100% sure I'm right but I'm confident enough in my preliminary read to not see him as a threat at this point. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On February 28 2013 17:21 randombum wrote: I'm with aqua on this one suckler. The heat you are giving him is easily explained by he figured out the inconsistency in prom's play after his original soft-defense. Yeah I am not so sure about shooting Aqua for not knowing Prom was going to introduce RNG discussion and then botch up the execution. Policy talk happens as a means to generate some discussion so it started as a way to start earning town cred as discussed. The execution failed in how Prom responded and perhaps also how long he held to his notion that he somehow knew better than everyone else how that conversation should go. He answered my question about it rather flippantly as well, which was kind of annoying. He didn't work to convince. He simply seemed to convey that knew it was a good play when it certainly doesn't fly here. Unless the timeline of actions is different in reality from what I remember, (posting on mobile) I am not entirely on board with this idea. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On February 28 2013 16:53 ObviousOne wrote: Well, why not make some effort to read someone at all, meta included, to get a better read on them, especially someone as volatile as Vivax who seems to have a history of violence with various people on the forums here? I didn't really see what some of you guys saw about him D1 that made him super scummy so it seemed like a reasonable request to get a better read not only for myself but to potentially clear up some misunderstandings about his play if it was within my power. I'm not saying I'm 100% sure I'm right but I'm confident enough in my preliminary read to not see him as a threat at this point. You have a scum read on Vivax, counter-case, please, VE. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
Grush is standing out to me right now, his vote states he's voting for Toad but I don't see any reasons at all. The only thing coming to mind about Toad is remembering that someone said that Toad and VE were probably on opposite teams but it doesn't appear to have been Grush saying that either. So far he just seems to be echoing sentiments of the thread without his own take spelled out for us to read. And what DocH just said about him stalling discussion is even more disconcerting... Something about Layabout has been bothering me but I haven't been able to put my finger on it. Looked at his filter and his last post here seems to be something of a nugget: On March 01 2013 10:24 layabout wrote: Aqua since the main point of your case is that hassy tried to be pardoner what do you think of the fact that he ran for a similar role in Holy Roman mafia on a similar basis won it and didn't use it? Despite that being a theme/ troll game it doesn't change that he has done the exact thing that you are calling him scum for as town. I think we should lynch macho today or failing that chez since I trust BC on this. night. Layabout wants to sheep the dead guy. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that BC is a great player but we can't operate on sheeping a dead guy who can't develop or change his reads, so I'm just wondering if he wants to develop the case on BC's behalf. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On March 01 2013 14:56 TestSubject893 wrote: That is exactly what I felt. Apparently this was the wrong choice and I'll make note of that for the future. I was mostly focusing on this post by OO and the response from Aqua. I was thinking that OO is never really saying anything of relevance, but Aqua says this and it really strikes me as scummy: He thinks that posting cases is bad, but is relying on others posting cases. On top of all of that I had this weird interation with OO last game that I'm trying to keep from biasing me this game, but sometimes I think I'm overcompensating and its causing me to be really indecisive about the whole thing. This post feels not productive either. Hopefully it answers your questions, but please ask away if you have more. My win-con in that game was to kill everybody and I was happy to oblige. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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ObviousOne
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+ Show Spoiler [major references to hassybaby] + Milksuckler openly encouraging a Vig shot for inactivity and running for pardoner: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17902607 The Macho Man for Hassy's disinterest in town/game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17903248 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17908194 Aquanim regarding Hassy's intent to become pardoner: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17907070 Vivax claiming attempt to shoot Hassy (this one is curious because how can you say "I believe" you wither did or did not shoot at Hassy....): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17907129 Roleblock: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17907541 Implying Milkman is scum with Hassy vote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17907319 vivax unvote, switch to milkman: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17907440 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17907541 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17907642 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17908119 Layabout describing Hassy having taken hold of Pardoner in another game (looks like a soft defense): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17907769 DocH greenlighting a shot on Hassy or Chez: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17908224 Regarding my notes (links) Confirms that Hassy's definitely in the back of people's mind. I see that since then, we have moved targets from Hassy to Chez, Milkman (who has since been confirmed town, was a candidate for Vivax) and Toad (DocH after a thorough re-read). I noted the extra stuff from Vivax in his switch to Milkman since it was a bigger deal knowing that Vivax was looking at Milkman who is since confirmed town. First post from his switch to Milkman looks kind of like a day-late OMGUS, for what that is worth. An interesting post before the chaos Then I discovered this little gem, not sure how to best utilize it but here you go: On March 01 2013 11:30 MilkSuckler wrote: Just wanted to say, I liked the way you presented ya thoughts with this post.. was clear to read (I would prefer if you kept producing content that way) Look, you're right, I am just saying he is town.. Let me read his filter and confirm where I stand with milkman.. THEN I will comment to whether I agree with your case or not. We never got those reasons why MilkSuckler thought Milkman was town. I would have liked to have seen that (unless I'm somehow wrong and the Chez shot banter just obfuscated it on my brief pass through the thread looking for it) pre-flip. So what does this flip say more about? Vivax had a scum read on him, MilkSuckler had a town feeling on him. MS was right but... we never found out why. I'm trying to sort this out in writing and nothing is making too much sense to me at this moment. Vivax seems to have a decent case but it's partially based on incomplete information and partially intuition on his part. MS could have easily found reasons Milkman was town as scum, and might have even been more careful to answer the question I would wager. My conclusions: 1) Vivax had a pretty interesting case that just didn't pan out (i.e. there was no conniving on the part of Milkman in his night action speculation, a large part of his case) which might have gotten a proper response had Milkman not been shot. Might consider this a warning that his reads are bad this game or it's mafia motivated. Downgrading my read of Vivax from leaning town to null for now. 2) Hypothetical mafia MilkSuckler is active enough (and careful enough as scum as evidenced by our previous game together) to answer questions posed to him relatively quickly. Leaning town at this point. 3) Hassybaby: backburner for now, but let's not forget him, probably mafia or just begging for modkill or replcement at this point. Something about Hassy may be linked to Layabout which I think I'll take a look at next given the soft-defense mentioned in the spoiler above (post by Layabout.) side note, I hope the formatting isn't too awful to make this unreadable | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [page50] + On February 27 2013 03:29 layabout wrote: Prom: I supported a prom lynch due to these posts: + Show Spoiler + On February 26 2013 10:04 Toadesstern wrote: are you mad that it didn't work or that you didn't get more credit for it? Because it sure sounds like that. We had some discussion about the rnd you suggested, we had some discussion about what I suggested. I most definitely wouldn't phrase it the way your are The basic idea was that Prom had stood for mayor under the premise that he would rng the lynch but then he turned around and said he had just wanted to create discussion. This is scummy because he didn't make enough of effort to create or encourage this discussion as he would be expected to do as town. Upon rereading I am not sure that he didn't do enough to push discussion. He mentions rng in a few posts but nobody really treats it as a valid option or says why it's a good/bad idea. The discussion naturally moves on and he lets it. Aside from that he posting is fine. I suppose he calls hasssy scummy for vanishing but he at least makes the effort to find out why hassy had gone + Show Spoiler + btw it was 3am uk time so maybe that + Show Spoiler [page53] + On February 27 2013 06:13 layabout wrote: + Show Spoiler [Not game relevant] + BH if anyone even suggests that your scum or disagrees with you you go after them aggressively and rudely. You often make personal attacks (though you mightn't think they are) that makes the game not fun to play. I remember i Igrok game where i don't think you were banned but you were out of order and since then i haven't wanted to play with you. (I don't think i said anything about it though. This game takes up to much time for us to treat each other like shit Vivax why hassy over chaos bear? And why don't you think we can do better than a lurker lynch when there were players you thought looked scummy? + Show Spoiler [page115] + [QUOTE]On March 01 2013 10:24 layabout wrote: Aqua since the main point of your case is that hassy tried to be pardoner what do you think of the fact that he ran for a similar role in Holy Roman mafia on a similar basis won it and didn't use it? Despite that being a theme/ troll game it doesn't change that he has done the exact thing that you are calling him scum for as town. I think we should lynch macho today or failing that chez since I trust BC on this. night. I'm questioning the logic of defending someone who for all intents and purposes ran for the pardoner position knowing specifically they aren't going to be around enough to prove they are town. It's just... odd. Like run for a position that gives town incentive to scrutinize you if you won't be around for the scrutiny. Or is this a play at looking not blendy by Hassy? Just feels strange to me that Layabout stood up for him in this way. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On March 01 2013 18:55 MilkSuckler wrote: I didn't read milkman filter cos all the chezinu stuff came up. But in short I liked his approach, and have thought he was town for a while, as evidenced by my last will and comments prior. I never had a reason to read him in detail which was why I couldn't isolate my thoughts. If chez is town vig then I still have no reason to read his filter. ======= OO you are lucky I got a hard on for toad right now. Whilst again I appreciate u took the time to read the thread. That's a commitment all of us r stuck with. The 27 pages have been condensed down to what again is a big summary post with one or two quotes u think r `gems`. There is minimal -if any- analysis and again u come back with zero pressure. E.g. U accuse me of having a scum game like this, then call me town.. I know from the shadowing of be.. U are capable of detailed analysis but its not here. The zealous approach u take only looks clean for so long... Wat Like, if you read my posts in order, I'm just following my thought process in the thread. Maybe someone better at deep analysis will see the things I feel are weird might be worth exploring or trigger something helpful for them. And why make a big deal of the fact that I said 27 pages? I just arbitrarily went back enough pages to gather thoughts about Hassy. If my posts are useless to you, that's cool, but you're one person. If everyone starts telling me my shit is completely useless I'll just follow Toad's example here which, to be honest, I can understand where he's coming from. Is there some kind of new meta-game where we make people not want to play the game? And while I'm talking to you... Hey, dude, try to stop responding with every little thought that goes through your head. You're at like 14% of all the thread action at a 17 page filter and not everything that everyone writes deserves a response directly from you. Unless you're intentionally trying to make your filter a bitch to read... | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On March 03 2013 09:46 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Ur basically guaranteed hit or rbd though  Hatter just throw bombs down and lets lynch him tomorrow From OP: Engineer: You have explosives and you are not afraid to use them! You have 2 bombs. You may plant 1 each night and move them around as you please. If you ever die, your bombs will explode, killing the players they are on. If you die to the lynch your bombs will be found, and become duds. Could have the town Dayvig execute him though, that would work assuming we have one. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [themed game mafia] + On February 18 2013 00:07 jcarlsoniv wrote: I rarely place my vote in the first half of the day This game, a few hours into D2 (contrary to his previous statement from another game, but given that activity has been sporadic this isn't evidence that he is scum for the exhibited behavior): + Show Spoiler [early day 2] + On March 01 2013 11:30 jcarlsoniv wrote: Not overcompensating, and I'm sorry that my RL time has been busy? I was only extending the courtesy of keeping you guys informed. I also haven't really done it more or less than any of the other players who have been busy. I know you're disappointed with my play, and I acknowledge that my activity has been...sporadic (and even that's being generous). C'est la vie. + Show Spoiler + But while you waste your time tossing your vote on me, I'm going to try to look for someone who's actually scum. ##vote JungleJorge This case is easy enough started off with his defense and then waffling on the topic of the Prom lynch. I will post them again for easy reference: + Show Spoiler + On February 26 2013 18:25 JungleJorge wrote: I believe promethelax is innocent and I may expand on that if necessary, but it should be painfully obvious to anyone reading this thread how much traction this wagon got based on very poor reasoning by most of you. Much of the "scummy" behavior you have been pointing out is exactly the opposite of what scum normally tries to accomplish when they post. I suggest you revisit prom's filter and think about why he would post some of the stuff he has posted if he was indeed scum. I plan on being more specific later, but I'll give you guys some time to figure it out by yourselves. I would also like you to take a look on The Macho Man, as he is my best guess for scum amongst the "active" posters. Again, I'll come back to expand on this as well. See you guys in a few hours. On February 27 2013 03:41 JungleJorge wrote: Promethelax is likely scum. I made that post specifically to see how he would react (as you noticed I didn't provide any reasons). Mostly my concerns were that too many people were pushing for his lynch and there was no opposition to it. Also the main reasons for the suspicion on him was some sudden change of mind or some controversial behavior, and those are normally townie traits. Now onto his reaction to my post: as town he would never come to the conclusion that I'm scum in that spot. What would be my interest as scum in defending a player everybody else thinks is scum? For town cred? As you can all tell that very often has the opposite effect and town cred is overrated anyway. People had not even mentioned my name prior to this so I had no reason to risk my neck over this. If you know you are townie your first reaction in this situation certainly is to think the people that are defending you are town! Now as scum what would you do? First you have inherent guilt, you think you look bad, so it's plausible that the claim that the guy defending you must have extra information should fly. Secondly you want to divert attention from your lynch, so it's a terrific opportunity to throw suspicion on someone that is on the other side of the issue. People that want to lynch prome certainly won't like the defense one bit, and are more easily willing to jump on the person defending it. As you can see Promethelax post makes very little sense if taken form a townie perspective, but makes a lot of sense given a scum mentality. I'll refrain from expanding my thoughts on macho man from now as to not derail this lynch. First post: he defends Prom, but also says "I'll let you guys figure out why" ~5 hours later, he realizes that all the candidates are going to kill Prom, and he's been caught with his ass hanging out in defense of the man who will ultimately flip red. He switches to all "hey guys, i was kidding, i was testing him." In the same vein, he, ONCE AGAIN, refrains from expanding upon his thoughts on Macho Man. About 6 hours later, another soft defense of Prome: + Show Spoiler + On February 27 2013 09:48 JungleJorge wrote: DocH and Wade Fell, you both seem to believe scum Prome wouldn't behave in the way I described, yet you believe Prome is scum. What gives? If you believe it is a null tell and I have reached the correct conclusion, by your own standards, what exactly is the problem here? Wouldn't you be better off taking in the information in regards to the reactions of many players, including the one set to be lynched, and ultimately have a better picture of the situation prior to the lynch so you could make a more informed decision and even after if we end up lynching him? If you believe it produced no meaningful content you can safely ignore it. It's funny how you accuse me of being anti-town when I'm trying to produce information by my own means, yet you both share my conclusion. Also how exactly my withholding information for some amount of time to observe the reactions to my post damages the town in any regard? I've said I'd share the concerns I had with prome's lynch and I did. As it stands right now I believe the best lynch is prome and I'd be foolish to try to persuade town that The Macho Man is a better lynch, if even I don't share that point of view. Yes I do have problems with TMM, but I'll discuss those when the time is appropriate. It's a common mistake by many players to say every single thought that comes to their minds, instead of keeping the focus on what needs to be done. Most of you so far seem to believe I'm some sort of idiot who ought to be dismissed. It's actually a barrier that I'm trying to overcome by making long quality over explanatory posts. I assure you I'm pretty good at this game, you would be surprised to know who you are dealing with. I assure you that if I had my name attached to my posts I would need to right a third as much and would have three times the influence. The rest of his filter is responding to a bunch of posts in order to defend himself. He mentions a few people he think could be scum (Restraining Order, Myself), and the last we heard from him, he's dead set on Aquanim dying. I would love to hear his point of view at this point. Sticking to his read (still getting townie vibes): + Show Spoiler [sticking to his read] + On March 01 2013 11:45 jcarlsoniv wrote: Ah yes, thank you. Was about to ask for this, I missed this in the clutter, and I was wondering what you meant in your earlier post saying I backtracked. I don't have much else to say about it other than what I've already said, but I can try to expand upon it. My initial gut read on Vayesh was scum, yes. At that point in the day, it was obvious that Prom was being lynched (just had to figure out who would be the one to kill him), so I wanted to try to look elsewhere. I saw Vayesh's posting and it rubbed me the wrong way, but there was admittedly little to go on at the time. I wanted to try to create pressure, so I made the case on him. As he started posting more and I read more, my gut read faded away, and I noted that. I'm not afraid to be wrong, so I took a shot at it. As for Vivax, my position on him hasn't really changed. I did find him a bit scummy at the time, and I still do (although somewhat less so at this point). I was dead set on him being scum in our last game too, and I turned out to be wrong. I said it before and I'll say it again, I was apprehensive of my gut feelings on Vivax for that very reason. @Wade Fell: Your case is reasonable. And I may be compelled to follow you just to see a video of you eating your hat. However, it is still early in the day, and I want to hear from JJ. More opposition to Chez lynch (okay the bolded+underlined part is where I start to get worried): + Show Spoiler [further opposition to chez lynch] + On March 03 2013 02:15 jcarlsoniv wrote: Morning gents. I'm still vehemently against a Chez lynch. I'm the only one who has defended against it, and I'm sticking to my guns. I don't think he will flip red. I'm willing to reconsider JJ for now. I agree that it would be surprising for him to claim roleblocker as scum, however certainly not impossible. I'm fine with him surviving and reevaluating after night phase (also, it's clear that all of you want Chez dead). Geript, on the other hand, is looking absolutely terrible. Martyring, being generally useless, and lashing out. I would MUCH prefer seeing him die before you guys lynch Chez. There has been a lot of discussion in the last few pages about geript, and I really think he should die today. ##unvote ##vote Geript Demonstrating an anti-town attitude about the primary focus for lynch lashing out at WF: + Show Spoiler [bad attitude] + On March 03 2013 08:39 jcarlsoniv wrote: My god, a big part of me really wants to be right about Chez just so you can shut your friggin mouth Ominous warning, possible role claim, seems to be upset that we lynched scum and he's been one of the few actually pushing in another direction (well, two that I counted): On March 03 2013 10:22 jcarlsoniv wrote: I strongly urge you to reconsider sending your little minions after me. Me dying would be a poor fate indeed. I am just not seeing how this final post says "It's your funeral" in a town way. Looks more like a threat. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On March 04 2013 17:58 Aquanim wrote: Anyone here? I just read randombum's filter and it contains: - his weird "elect scum for mayor" plan - scumreads on OO and jcarlsoniv he never followed up - late sheeps onto Prom and Chezinu wagons - that's pretty much it Does anyone have any reason to think this guy's town? because I can't find one Yeah just looking at a couple filters regarding recent events. I'll look at randombum in a few, my last pass was quite a while back. Here's what I'm looking at now: JJ voted Grush earlier in the day because "why not". This game is matching Grush town meta IMO so I want to see what JJ saw (he seems to have dropped it in favor of voting Vivax). @JJ what is it about Grush's filter that makes you think he could be scum? WF asked you earlier and you simply said "his filter." You seem to have forgotten about that request given all your night action speculation. "His filter" is not an acceptable answer. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On March 01 2013 11:42 randombum wrote: I already stated I'm going to lynch jcarl unless I get convinced by somebody else. If for some reason nobody wants jcarl and they want RO instead I'd be willing to lynch him too. On March 03 2013 04:41 randombum wrote: I still don't like him. In fact I've felt worse about him after he responded. I pointed out some thing I dislike as a scum behavior and his response was to get over it. However, there's like 8 lurkers on chez and I don't think I'll be swaying the town over from a very scummy looking chez that everybody already agrees on. On March 04 2013 13:40 randombum wrote: Also, anybody want to discuss somebody not geript? Like jcarl, let's lynch that guy. Interestingly enough he wanted to do a vote switch from Chez based on Chez not being shot by a town day-vig. But he is interested in lynching Jcarl and I think that's bonus points for him right now. Still not interested in a randombum lynch. He looks like he's trying to figure stuff out. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On March 04 2013 18:46 Aquanim wrote: Well there's only two scum left and unless randombum and jcarlsoniv are the last two scum I don't see why scum randombum wouldn't attack a suspicious-looking jcarlsoniv. After all, randombum has to do something... Have you checked Geript's meta as mentioned before? On March 03 2013 02:21 DoctorHelvetica wrote: If anyone wants proof Geript is scum/3rd party go look at his town filter from the last newbie mafia. It couldn't be more different, I usually hate meta reads but this one is nothing but net Did you give it a look? It's night and day. Something is off about Geript this game and he's overplaying the martyr right now. I've done the martyring thing too, I martyred HARD in my second or third newbie game and I finally picked myself up and at least tried to do what any town player should do in his position: try to organize thoughts into cases and push them regardless of how terrible I looked. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On March 02 2013 15:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Nothing is more telling than "Hey I'm gonna scumhunt hard and read everyones filters" and then never doing that and just pushing distrust on all the vocal town voices the most significant things geript has done this game: 1. talk mess about VE, confirmed townie and potentially dangerous vet 2. talk mess about BC, confirmed townie and potentially dangerous vet 3. talk mess about me, potentially dangerous vet his case against me depends on the idea that i heard about 2 night vigs in the scum qt and i just pointed out which post by vivax it was i was talking about and before that "slip" he had a null read on me so if he's still gonna call me scum, he's being illogical MEANING his logic was formed for the purpose of the accusation not the accusation being formed on the basis of the logic MEANING he is scum or incredibly bad and stubborn I return to this and it's actually really resonating with me. What better plan for a scum team than to hunt vets inside and outside the thread. I mean unless DocH is scum (very doubtful) and picked up on this trait of Geript's to stick an easy case to a townie on the wrong track, the plan to attack vets both via NKs and inside the thread to sow discord/chaos is really actually an intriguing plan and had it been more successful I could see us being in a bad place. The question remains, why butt heads with the towniest mofuggas in the thread? The people with the most presence in the thread will always have the most material to draw from, and reading filters (as was definitely necessary) takes everything out of context making players who change their mind with good reasons more difficult to get a hold of when playing catch up. DocH has been down with the town for every lynch so far and is making a whole lot of sense and I wish I could understand what it is exactly that Geript is finding so terribly scummy about him that there is an open ended pointless argument happening in the thread about it. The head to head is just not making sense from a town POV. | ||
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