This Town Ain't Big Enough Mafia

On February 25 2013 07:02 yamato77 wrote:

The last thing town needs is a bunch of people yelling at each other to duel someone else.

But whatever, do what you want. I'm only going to duel someone if things go bad, which I think they will. If they go your way, good, but I doubt it. Town is rarely that cooperative.

On February 25 2013 09:08 Acrofales wrote:
I disagree with Iamp. I have no clue about yamato's meta, but being incredibly dumb about a pro-town policy without proposing a viable, useful, alternative is not a town trait. Yamato's participation in the thread so far has been to try to disrupt Marv's policy. That is not in town's best interest and the whole policy discussion so far has been all the dumber for it.

@Marv: why do you feel Cora is scummy for opposing your policy, yet have said nothing about Yamato?

On February 25 2013 03:06 Snarfs wrote:
Ahhh yesss!! Finally a game where I'm not mafia! It's been too long. Far too long.

Obvious rule number 1: no one calls for a duel unless we have a majority of the thread agreeing on it.

Obvious rule number 2: we use as much of the day as possible before calling for duels.

Anyone ignoring rules 1 or 2 should be put under extreme scrutiny for acting against town goals.

On February 25 2013 10:07 Sylencia wrote:


Not mafia != town, could be third party as far as we know.

On February 25 2013 10:07 marvellosity wrote:
Snarfs is not scummier than thrawn after that abomination of a post. Dunno what you're smoking, iamp

On February 25 2013 10:13 marvellosity wrote:
worst reasoning ever, iamp. your posts so far have all been useless, so you're an easy target to attack right now.

On February 25 2013 10:29 cDgCorazon wrote:


Right now, I would kill Yamato because he looks like he is going to go rogue the whole game and not listen to us at all.

He's also expecting me to have scum reads 6-7 pages into the game and expecting every post I make to be an attack on someone. He changed the subject to put the focus on my lack of scum reads this early in the game (sheeping on your notion earlier that I was being wishy-washy, it's an unoriginal argument which is really scummy seeing as there's been so little discussion).

Basically, he wants the thread to be like the "Reign of Terror" from the French Revolution. I'm pretty sure that is not necessary for us to catch the scum.

A close second is Adam who has displayed the same desire to go rogue but hasn't been as abrasive.

On February 25 2013 10:31 cDgCorazon wrote:


Don't pressure me into making an answer that you want. I can think for myself, thank you very much.

Snarfs' first post a bit scummier than Dinoman's is. Do you expect everyone to be 100% convinced about the scum team this early on in the game as well?

On February 25 2013 10:33 cDgCorazon wrote:


Did you read anything besides the first line of my answer?

On February 25 2013 11:03 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Yamato + Cora
Can you both take a breather and calmly explain who your scumreads are and why? Both of you are at the throat of every person who accuses you, and I can't keep track of it for the life of me.

On February 25 2013 11:22 Hapahauli wrote:


I can finally get to work since players not named Marv, Yamato, or Corazon are finally starting to post.

As for you, what the hell have you done that's useful? I see a lot of random name-dropping and not much of substance. You've championed "Yamato is Town, I will defend him 'till the end," yet everything else in your filter is completely unexplained and or nonsensical. Case in point:

On February 25 2013 11:22 Hapahauli wrote:


I can finally get to work since players not named Marv, Yamato, or Corazon are finally starting to post.

As for you, what the hell have you done that's useful? I see a lot of random name-dropping and not much of substance. You've championed "Yamato is Town, I will defend him 'till the end," yet everything else in your filter is completely unexplained and or nonsensical. Case in point:

On February 25 2013 11:30 Hapahauli wrote:


How the fuck are those first-posts allignment indicative?

Thrawn read still makes zero sense given that he gave you a scumread when you'd made like 2 inconsequential posts in several hours.

On February 25 2013 11:34 cDgCorazon wrote:


I know I should really shut up about Yamato but:

Why are you guys getting on each other for having such early town reads and not get on Yamato for having such early scum reads?

On February 25 2013 11:38 Hapahauli wrote:


Naw man. This game is coming way too easily to you right now.

Especially the bolded: not once have you explained why you think those posts (by Snarf and Dieno) are scummy. You just name-drop and move on. You're telling us plenty of what you think, but nothing about why you think so.

Y u so scummy iamp?

On February 25 2013 11:41 Hapahauli wrote:


Newbie player makes wishy-washy newbie post. Your turn.

On February 25 2013 11:46 Acrofales wrote:


That's a complete misrepresentation of dino in that game and you know it. Dieno's claim to townhood was making a plan which was ridiculous and coming up with a crazy campaign for team leader. He also claimed in order to get included in the party. All-in-all, it was enough for a town read on a complete newbie. Dieno is no longer a complete newbie.

Also, Dieno was mislynched in Parallel Universe for his wishy washy opening post and not delivering afterwards. If you're trying to say Dieno is scum for not living up to CT, you need to do better than that and read his other games as well. So far I have no clue about Dieno's alignment, but the meta you just plonked in here is completely wrong.

On February 25 2013 11:57 Hapahauli wrote:


Missing the point. He was being an attention-whore in Chrono and posting wild pictures to be elected mayor (first few posts). That's a completely different situation from what we're in.

On February 25 2013 12:03 Hapahauli wrote:


False pretenses? That's just one of the several reasons I'm suspicious of him right now. I think he's scummy due to his his nonsensical Thrawn read, as well has him name-dropping Dieno.



Also, this post in general is really scummy in context. Why on earth is he answering a question for Corazon? In fact his posts right after that suggests that he's suspicious of Cora at point:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398360&currentpage=12#221
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398360&currentpage=12#222

The thought-process makes no sense. He's suspicious of Cora, yet he's willing to answer questions for him? Nope.

On February 25 2013 12:13 Hapahauli wrote:


I'll admit you're getting better with the "spotlight" and "activity" thing.

Though answer what I posted above: why were you answering questions for Corazon?

On February 25 2013 12:33 Dienosore wrote:
@marv: I've already mentioned that I trust you. If you sincerely believe that he isn't scum, then I will reconsider my hard stance. However, I would be a fool to not remain extremely suspicious until something happens that definitively clears up the situation.

@Hapa: He didn't just make a post about me. He called me out for a duel with his first post based on my first post. To me, this screams scum.

On February 25 2013 12:35 Acrofales wrote:

But he's had that attitude all game. Thrawn thought he was scum for it, you think he's town for it. I have no clue, I'd say he's playing pretty similar to the start of CT, where he was town, but I thought he could be scum. He is aggressive and doesn't give a shit.

However, the reasons I doubt him are still the same: he gives no reasons, isn't forceful about his reads and has this post:

This post is pointless, but a suspicious mind might think why even bother bringing it up? How does Iamp know that good players are likely town, rather than scum?

On February 25 2013 13:11 Dienosore wrote:


Good to hear that you are willing to disarm, even if ever so slightly.

Unfortunately, I am not the best scum hunter. I rely on my maps a lot, as you probably know, which usually require days of information and copious cross referencing before the incriminating connections really stand out.

I'll try to whip up something before I go to bed tonight, though.

On February 25 2013 22:42 marvellosity wrote:


ya I agree on both points. The interesting/funny/odd thing is this - in Mario Mafia, Hapa was scum, iamp was town, and Hapa accused iamp of being scum. I pretty much hard-defended iamp, and in any case the end result of the episode was this:



In other words, it's a very similar mirror. It's actually quite bemusing because it seems almost ludicrous that a scum-Hapa would fall into exactly the same trap again, and yet as you note, iamp's playstyle didn't really change. Like, I can easily grab a couple of quotes from the first page of iamp's filter with the same attitude as Hapa claimed made him change his read.

On February 25 2013 05:54 Keirathi wrote:
Hola gents.

Fear the 10 paces, filthy scum.

On February 25 2013 23:32 Oatsmaster wrote:
So if I agree that hapa is scummy, what does that mean about my reads on you and Acro?
And If I think that hapa is town, what does it mean about my reads on you and Acro?

On February 25 2013 23:56 Oatsmaster wrote:
Its called keeping them to yourself :D
who is scum Iamp?

On February 26 2013 00:27 cDgCorazon wrote:


Well why can Yamato get away with stuff but Iamp can't? You have to admit that it's a little unfair. It's not being consistent. Why is it when you attack Iamp for making town reads and not attack Yamato for the same thing? If you think it's a scummy action, it's at least slightly scummy everytime someone does it. It's not scummy when Iamp does it and not when Yamato does it.

It can be scummier due to metas, but you can't let Yamato get off scot free with it.



That's why I'm going to re-read the thread and see if I can sort all of these attacks out.

On February 25 2013 23:48 marvellosity wrote:
there's 5 players by my count who haven't really started playing the game yet. It's an unfortunately high percentage.

snarfs/kei/sylencia/alderan/zare

On February 26 2013 02:54 Acrofales wrote:
Regarding Thrawn: Iamp has a meta town read on him.

Iamp, mind elaborating on that read?

On February 26 2013 02:57 Acrofales wrote:


Dieno posted the map, do you still think he's scum?

On February 26 2013 03:00 Acrofales wrote:

You haven't commented on Dieno's map.

On February 26 2013 03:02 Acrofales wrote:
You offhandedly mentioned "he looked a bit better". I was expecting more after you specifically made a comment that you were excited to see his map. Do you think he could fake the map as scum?

On February 26 2013 06:07 zarepath wrote:
I'm going to be mostly AFK for the rest of the Night so here are some reads/suspicions for the moment.

Hapa
The very first thing he does is claim town, which I really dislike.
Proposes a policy.
Suggests that all Cora wants to do is call Sylencia a dick... stoking the flames
The 180 on iamp with not a lot of justification

In the end he makes a fairly good defense (last post in his filter). The iamp 180 does look awful, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

Oats
Super spastic. Tons of questions. The other game I've played with Oats, this is how he played Day 1 in order to get information/discussion flowing. I am pretty sure that is his tactic now. But if literally zero cases or reads come out of it, his behavior is going to look scummy in retrospect.

Keirathi
Somebody else who soft-claimed town immediately, a thing I hate. Supposedly caught up with the thread but hasn't made his presence known in any substantial way. He needs to have opinions or something.

Dienosore
I feel like he is the stuffed animal of this game of mafia. He is cute and friendly and makes sweet pictures and hard to hate, but when night strikes he turns into an Agent of Evil and creepily plots our demise. Okay, so not really. His picture is potentially helpful/useful, and I like his tone, but he has really gone out of his way to talk about how friendly he is, which strikes me a little bit of Stranger In An Unmarked Van syndrome. He opts to be the nice welcoming guy to Cora when everyone else is finding excuses to hate him, and it just makes my heart swell. Then in his defense of his defense of Cora, he mentions multiple times how friendly he is. Why is he so concerned with looking friendly? Town doesn't need to worry how they look, just what they accomplish. Note that he also went out of his way to express how he is NOT good at catching scum. Why would town advertise that? Don't they want their arguments to hold sway?

I want to see more of his conclusions from his mapping; undoubtedly several occur to him while he does the research.

Adam
What does Adam think about people not named Dienosore? Hard to tell.

Snarfs
Unless Snarfs has been mafia a million times in a row, his first line was a super annoying soft-town-claim that is not justified, in my opinion. Now that he's caught up I wonder what his other thoughts are.

Sylencia
I mentioned this earlier, but Sylencia looks the scummiest right now of all of the players. Others have contributed less/none, but the few things Sylencia has popped in to post fall easily under the Scum Motivated category. He has more work to do to stop looking scummy than anybody else. Just check his filter and the case makes itself.

iamperfection
His player list comment (assuming town will have the good players for some reason) sounds awful but when looked at, I can understand how it's simply just saying that there are so many good players we're bound to have at least one as town. His logic fails to account for the fact that mafia will also have good players, so it's not like town will now have it easy .

He calls someone town REALLY early in the game, which something you can usually only do with confidence when you are scum.

He calls Snarfs scummy also very early in the game, then tells other people to discuss it. I think this is kind of null, but worth bringing up because it was a unique read.

He goes out of his way to answer for corazon, tell him who is scum. I don't know that I can see scum acting this... forwardly. He is unforgiving in his opinions and doesn't really bend at all to town, and he just has this weird vibe. I get a sense of unique thoughts coming from this man. He gives a bunch of town reads, which is apparently something he just does.

This man is a Wild Card. I think I like him. (And I can also understand how someone would be certain that he's scum and then suddenly decide he's no longer scum.)

On February 26 2013 07:55 iamperfection wrote:

this post is scummy as fuck

at the top he says these are reads and suspicions but they aren't.

1. all he does is sum up what people did with no real conclusions
2. wishy washy as fuck( sums up several players actions..ie me hapa dino kier) but then has no conclusion on those players alignments one way or the other. This is scummy because hit is a good way to look like your contributing when you are in fact not
3. says stuff that doesn't make sense. ie hapa's 180 looks awful but he can see the reasoning behind it..... (then it is not awful)

On February 26 2013 07:59 marvellosity wrote:
zarepath - I like what he's done since he's been here. Picking up on good things, effort blabla.

On February 26 2013 08:06 Hapahauli wrote:
Oh waht the fuck goddamnit I thought hte deadline was at 7

On February 26 2013 08:06 cDgCorazon wrote:


After reading Zare's post again, I do think you have a point. I also think this post is full of ideas that have been said already. It really just looks like an unfocused list of his reads based on what others have said.

If I may be so bold Iamp, would you like to reciprocate and give me some feedback on my suspicion towards Oats?
+ Show Spoiler +

On February 26 2013 08:11 cDgCorazon wrote:


So do you feel like my points are not scum tells? Or that they are not strong enough to sway you from your current read of Oats?

On February 26 2013 10:22 Acrofales wrote:

Tell me again why Thrawn is town. His calling you out is not enough given the rest of his play. I have played town with him once and he played well. I read 2 other of his town games and they were also fine. This is not his townplay.

On February 26 2013 11:01 Keirathi wrote:

No solid reads yet. I'm interested in thrawn, obviously. The town thrawn I know is logical and takes his time to look at all sides of the situation, and I just haven't seen that from him this game. He's just been flying by the seat of his pants (iamp scum, no town, no scum again! Hapa should be a dueler tomorrow!) with little to no reasoning for his "reads".

On February 26 2013 11:18 Keirathi wrote:

I honestly haven't put a whole lot of effort into the game at this point because I've just been busy. I'm not going to force reads I don't believe in though, nor am I going to apologize for that.

You act like this is something new, though. In fact, iirc, this isn't even the first time you've made that statement about me on day 1 ("OMG you must be scum if you aren't sure about reads 24 hours into the game!"). Sorry, I'll work at my own pace and have reads when I have them.

On February 27 2013 00:09 The Macho Man wrote:

Why would adam as scum initiate a duel?

seem to me he was far from being the most likely to be called out.

On February 27 2013 00:59 Alderan wrote:


Taking a stance?...

wat....

Hey town, how about we not take a stance on things like double lynching townies.



Neither of those are good enough reasons to lynch. So again, let's NOT "take a stand".

On February 27 2013 01:09 Alderan wrote:


I know that one being stupid and one being useless is not reason enough to lynch both. If I see some significant scum evidence on BOTH then I would advocate a double lynch, but because it's fairly certain they are not both scum then what you are proposing is essentially a random lynch.

On February 27 2013 04:05 Alderan wrote:


Got off on a rant the first time I answered this question and accidentally closed the tab. Do you really need to explain to you why lynching twice on the first day is less effective than lynching once?

On February 27 2013 07:42 thrawn2112 wrote:
so we have two people up for lynch. we have to lynch at least one of them.

1) both scum. this is dumb but if it's true then it's not a possibility worth worrying about. win-win
2) both town. if this is the case then we are fucked either way. lose-lose
3) one town, the other scum. win-lose

Option 3 is the only option worth worrying about. If 1 is true, it's a win-win and if 2 is true we're in a lose-lose. So there's not much use in considering either option as a real possibility. 1/2 might be true but in either case there's nothing we can do about it.

So now we are in a position where it makes sense that for the rest of the cycle, we might as well at least assume that only one of them is likely to be scum. Don't place your votes based on which option you think is the lesser of two evil, I want reasons for why the person you're voting for has a higher chance to flip scum than the other.

Which explanation makes more sense:

A townie haves an emotional omgus reaction and duels his accuser or a mafia player making a similar omgus styled play?

Then you have to look at each of their filters.

Even if you like keir's point about adam's possible self-promotion, you cannot ignore that it's all keir has talked about. He's said a few things about how I wasn't playing up to my town meta, and lately he's said that I've been hopping around on thread sentiment. These points are lazy and anyone could make them. And those 2 'reads' are keir's entire contribution to the game thus far. I am having a hard time believing that out of all the things that have happened in the thread, an early meta read on me and the tunneling of a single point about adam is all he would be able to come up and be suspicious of if he were town.

On February 27 2013 11:57 thrawn2112 wrote:


that dienosore is hella scummy for not being suspicious of obviously scummy keir. keir's actual alignment probably doesn't even factor into it. town dienosore should not be looking at someone who hardcore lurked and only introduced 1 unique point to the thread and seeing them as not scummy.

On February 27 2013 12:02 The Macho Man wrote:

because he isn't doing anything and it doesn't look like he cares about the game.....

On February 27 2013 13:01 Adam4167 wrote:
By that logic iam, you should want to kill everyone, to generate the most 'information'.

On February 27 2013 13:05 Adam4167 wrote:
Survival is important to every alignment, so that's irrelevant.

On February 27 2013 16:44 yamato77 wrote:
So let me break the game down here, because I have a decent idea of what's going on.

Based on the complete uselessness of both parties involved in this lynch, Adam and Keirathi, I think the likelihood of them both being town is high. Mafia in this position would be more concerned with the possibility of being lynched here, and do something about it. Neither of these players seems to be trying particularly hard to live, so by default they're probably just town. It's unfortunate that one, or perhaps both, might die in this situation, but if I had to pick one, I would pick Adam. Keirathi, I think, is the better town among the two, and could potentially be valuable to us later on if left alive. That said, at this point, it doesn't matter too much to me which one lives, because I don't think either of them is particularly useful this game.

THAT said, I don't want both to die. The mere thought of a double lynch is hilariously stupid in this situation, and I don't like the idea of not choosing either of them at all. Mafia have an unprecedented ability to hide in this situation, because they don't even have to FAKE a read on a player and justify it, they can just say they think they're both worth lynching and not vote, causing a double lynch.

So who is doing this? Iamperfection. I initially thought he was fairly townie, but his interest in this lynch is tremendously low. Like, I don't think he's given a read on either of these people that was longer than a sentence or deeper than "He's mafia because XX and I said so." In fact, that's basically how all of his reads have been so far, town or scum. But what is really damning, to me, is the fact that he's pushing this double lynch thing with no good logic to back it up. Acro, I can believe. Iamp is just kinda on that wagon and has pushed it without a clear motive like Acro's. If these two really are townies, like I think, then mafia is more likely to be disinterested in picking sides, and has clear motivation to want them both dead. It's the same heuristic I used to catch on to Snarfs in Nomination; mafia players don't care which townie dies, and won't spend much effort picking one. Only iamp isn't even picking one. Hilariously scummy.

On February 27 2013 23:33 Oatsmaster wrote:
Lol Iamp when is the last time you got mislynched?

also double lynch? :D

On February 27 2013 16:05 Dienosore wrote:
Wait, hold on... Did I read this right?



Quoting this for preservation purposes.

On February 28 2013 01:44 Acrofales wrote:


Oh, dafuq. What is it with you people and your lack of reading comprehension

Adam is an evil 3P who cares jack shit about the wellbeing of this town
Keirathi is evil scum who needs to die

Both must die. I will duel the next person who asks for my reads on adam and keir, because I hereby declare a policy lynch on people not reading the thread.

On February 28 2013 01:48 Oatsmaster wrote:
Iamp, why is adam a 3p?

On February 28 2013 01:58 zarepath wrote:


People don't play with labels on their heads reading "SCUM" or "TOWN," and they do not always play optimally or ideally, especially in weird formats like this one. I don't think you can declare someone 3P just because they don't play exactly according to your definition of what an ideal town or scum would do.

On February 28 2013 02:21 Oatsmaster wrote:
Actually thrawn you too, why did Adam basically claim 3P as Acro said instead of playing more like what a townie looks like?

On February 28 2013 02:25 zarepath wrote:


If you are so sure about Kier then vote for him. Doing anything else is a lack of conviction

On February 28 2013 02:27 Oatsmaster wrote:
No, what adam did was basically saying,
'I voted for that dude cause I wanted a mislynch'
He pretty much 'claimed' 3P right there. Except nobody does that.

On February 28 2013 03:38 Alderan wrote:
God this is setting up so perfectly for scum to push double lynch. They're able to do what Thrawn did and just switch at any time, or do what Dieno is doing and say,"welll..... I don't really know, nor do I plan on contributing so Im gonna put a vote on the one with the least and hope for the best."

And they are in a win win situation.

Two town deaths: "Oh well they played so bad, blame them, fucking noobs"
One town, One scum: "SEE, SEE WE TOLD YOU, WE'RE ALL TOWN"

I just don't see any evidence that someone can have as vanilla townie that suggest either are scum. Useless? Of course. Scum? I just don't see it.

On February 28 2013 03:44 Alderan wrote:


Why so defensive bro?

We have plenty of time for that, I'm not giving anyone any fodder to take this thread off track. The issue at hand is selecting this lynch, and in my opinion making sure it doesn't go to a double.

On February 28 2013 04:20 yamato77 wrote:

I've read the arguments, but you're so far into fantasy land with this that it makes zero sense. Adam's play makes plenty of sense from a town perspective, he's just not trying very hard to show it..

On February 28 2013 06:33 Alderan wrote:


While this hurts your opinion of me, your premise is wrong.

Didn't say it was double town, said I didn't feel good about either being scum (read: Null).

On February 28 2013 06:42 Alderan wrote:


BTW this is a scum quality.

On February 28 2013 02:52 Hapahauli wrote:
I'll be back in an hour. Till then, someone needs to explain to me why we're so sure that Adam is a 3rd party that we're willing to lynch him solely on that basis. 'Cause I don't get it at all.

On February 28 2013 12:01 The Macho Man wrote:

so you think hapa is town???????????????????????????????????????????????????

why dont you enlighten the rest of class

On February 28 2013 12:03 Oatsmaster wrote:
Nah.

Hey Iamp I also think hapa has been really fucking passive this game,

However, was it a bus on Keirathi?
His reasoning was suspect and I dont really know :/

Again, however, his posts leading up to the lynch where he blasted Acro for saying Adam was 3P were pretty townie.

On February 28 2013 12:09 Alderan wrote:


I don't know... I think if you, iamp, and Thrawn flipped it would not surprise me if there was one scum.

On February 28 2013 12:11 Acrofales wrote:

That's the point, he said it at the start.

On February 28 2013 12:15 Adam4167 wrote:
And if I take another scum with me, then Ill happily do it.

On February 28 2013 12:24 Acrofales wrote:

Are Australia and Romania the same thing?

On February 28 2013 12:23 Adam4167 wrote:
If you want me to stop initialing duels then stop coming up with garbage like this for scum cases:



Push legitimate cases. Then Ill agree with your duel choices.

On February 28 2013 12:29 Adam4167 wrote:
No, that is called being unavailable.

How the hell is not being here 24/7 mafia motivated? its calling having a life outside this forum.

On February 28 2013 12:45 The Macho Man wrote:

i think dino can be scum as well

hapa vs dino

hapa i believe has a scum read on dino as well. Then we can double lynch

On March 01 2013 01:20 The Macho Man wrote:

i was completly ok with double lynch as well so i dont really see a problem

we should only worry about acro at endgame imo. He has shown no scum traits he is active he cares about the lynch that is not scummy and there is no way he should be the candidate tomorrow.

On March 01 2013 01:31 yamato77 wrote:
Tomorrow, at the crack of day, I am dueling Acro.

It's him or me.

Pick me first, I don't care, but if I die you lynch him after.

On March 07 2013 01:01 HiroPro wrote:
Snarfs had no KP and would have needed 6 mislynches to win. So tough task lol.

On March 07 2013 01:57 Keirathi wrote:
Oh game is over.

I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my (lack of) play. I just got super busy with a random job where i was working long ass days and not getting home until 7-8 pm and I was exhausted. It was so hard to try to catch up on 30-50 pages and try to come up with relevant thoughts

I definitely had some ideas that I wanted to push, but I just didn't have time/energy to do it.

GG everyone, sorry again.