EPTThis Town Ain't Big Enough Mafia
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Adam4167
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Adam4167
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I agree with Yamato, If i see scum, i'll make my case and duel them. Forcing two other people to duel at your behest is weak - man up, take responsibility for your reads. Dieno, your opening post was quite bad. You seem to be trying to make friends with and please everyone, while saying absolutely nothing of value. Step it up or get dueled tomorrow. | ||
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Adam4167
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On February 25 2013 10:07 marvellosity wrote: right Adam, and it's people like you who will fuck up the game. How so? Why are you afraid to put your own life on the line, for someone who backs their reads as much as you usually do? | ||
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On February 25 2013 10:10 marvellosity wrote: Ah yes. The legends of TL Mafia - Foolishness, syllogism, sandroba, Palmar, Adam, and yamato. My bad  Snide remarks are very unbecoming. You rated my town play in WLIIA Mafia, why are you so quick to put it down here? | ||
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Adam4167
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On February 25 2013 10:18 Sylencia wrote: Because this game doesn't revolve around just you and your reads. We're not going to have a read on a single person every duel phase, we're most likely going to have multiple people. If you put those people against each other, it works out a lot better for town because you see 2 players' defenses, and oust a potential scum. Putting yourself against the person you have a read against isn't likely to give that much option to the defender. Even if they are town, they are very likely doomed to die in that spot and it's a complete waste of a duel. My game revolves around me and my reads because its all I have to work with. Ill just have to make sure my reads are spot on then, to not 'completely waste duels', as you put it. | ||
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On February 25 2013 10:29 cDgCorazon wrote: Right now, I would kill Yamato because he looks like he is going to go rogue the whole game and not listen to us at all. He's also expecting me to have scum reads 6-7 pages into the game and expecting every post I make to be an attack on someone. He changed the subject to put the focus on my lack of scum reads this early in the game (sheeping on your notion earlier that I was being wishy-washy, it's an unoriginal argument which is really scummy seeing as there's been so little discussion). Basically, he wants the thread to be like the "Reign of Terror" from the French Revolution. I'm pretty sure that is not necessary for us to catch the scum. A close second is Adam who has displayed the same desire to go rogue but hasn't been as abrasive. So, you would kill someone for being 'anti-town' in your opinion, as opposed to them actually being scum? Nothing you've pointed out indicates Yamato is scum in the slightest. How do I rate lower than Yamato if i'm being less abrasive? Would that not be indicative of me being more likely to be scum? | ||
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Adam4167
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Here's your initial post cut down: On February 25 2013 09:29 Dienosore wrote: - Snarf/Marv's plan to use all of our time to get a majority before dueling seems like the best and most logical path of action. No complaints there. You agree with the general consensus of the thread. Adds nothing. On February 25 2013 09:29 Dienosore wrote: - Yamato, easy on the trigger amigo. I can see some merit to what you are saying, though. It might be very beneficial for the town to have someone like you who is willing to duel in order to prove alignment, as long as you follow the general town consensus. Could help to keep everyone honest... ...On the other hand, you might be mafia... in which case having you as a baseline enforcer would only result in towny deaths. Until you get cleared somehow, I think we should stick with the plan to just take our time. You tell yamato to stop acting how he's acting, yet you can see the merit of how hes acting, then you waffle a couple of sentences about him being either alignment, then conclude with 'just do what everyone else is doing'. It says literally nothing of value. On February 25 2013 09:29 Dienosore wrote: - Corazon: I don't know you, therefore I don't not like you! <3 Not sure why marv is putting doubt on you already, but I generally trust him. Is there something about you I should know? Here you buddy Corazon, saying you are unsure why marv is doing what hes doing, but you generally trust marv, but you don't state if you're trusting him THIS TIME and agree with his read on Corazon or whether you disagree as you hinted at in the beginning. Again, this is just a nothing paragraph. On February 25 2013 10:41 Dienosore wrote: How was my opening post bad lol. I said hello, gave my stance on the things being discussed at the moment (there wasnt much happening). I am a friendly guy, you should know this from our previous games. I was trying to get more info on someone I didnt know before I formed an opinion on them. However, you implying you want to duel with your first post seems way sketchy. No discussion, no case, just PLAY BETTER OR DIE lol How does anything you say accomplish information extraction as you say? "Is there something about you I should know?" is about as vague as anything you could post and it went completely ignored as a result. I didn't imply I wanted to duel, I specifically stated it. You deem it 'way sketchy'. Is that scummy? if you think its scummy, then call it what it is. Its not 'PLAY BETTER OR DIE' its 'you have less than 24 hours to change my mind, or we duel'. | ||
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Adam4167
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On February 25 2013 11:37 cDgCorazon wrote: Yes, but making a bunch of relatively weak scum reads would accomplish the same goal of appearing to contribute. They don't even need to be flipped. Dropping weak scum reads will still draw attention to you, something scum try to avoid generally. They also have to be backed up with some form of sense or logic or they are seen for exactly what they are, garbage. | ||
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Adam4167
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On February 25 2013 11:46 cDgCorazon wrote: I think Dieno's post wasn't wishy-washy. I just think it didn't have much of a purpose, and he put too much fluff into it. He basically said that he agreed with Marv and Snarf (which is basically repeating what had been said before), told Yamato to hold off on his itchy trigger finger (which was also being repeated), and made some weirdly-shown suspicion towards me. It was very sheepy, but not wishy-washy. How was it not wishy-washy? It was just a stream of thoughts with no conclusion, considering both possibilities of yamato's alignment and settling on neither. His thoughts on marvs interaction on you was equally as pointless. That is the definition of wishy-washy. | ||
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On February 25 2013 12:05 cDgCorazon wrote: Hi Adam, nice to see that you have chosen my post to respond to in place of all of the other arguments. Very nice... Wishy-washy (in my eyes) is saying things that are contradictory to each other. Nothing that he said was contradictory. I'm not saying that the post wasn't completely pointless and basically just fluff, but "wishy-washy" was not an accurate description of Dieno's post. In place of all other arguments? I made a case against dieno, now i'm waiting for his response. Wake up. That is not the definition of wishy-washy. Wishy-washy is being vague, non-committal and generally without purpose. | ||
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On February 25 2013 12:17 Dienosore wrote: Just me being friendly. Would you have been happy if I just followed suit and jumped on the anti Corazon bandwagon? And it wasn't a nothing paragraph... I was asking for someone (anyone) to volunteer more info. No, id have liked to you of actually commented on what you thought of his alignment DIRECTLY. You said you didn't see what marv saw, therefore null right? Then you go on to say that marv is usually right, therefore you think Corazon was possibly scum? you implied both, said neither, and asked a throwaway question. On February 25 2013 12:17 Dienosore wrote: Information is power in this game, so I didn't really expect a detailed answer to my question. I went fishing and came up empty, big deal. I'll continue fishing until I get a bite. As for changing your mind, I have a feeling that no matter what I say you are still going to be gunning for me. Yes, I think you pushing for a instant duel with your first post is super scummy, especially when we have more than enough time to deliberate and come to a general consensus as a group. I can't see any town motivation in what you are doing right now. Which, ironically enough, means that we should duel. If I lose the vote and die, I'll flip green and you will have condemned yourself even further. If I win, then scumball down, victory for town. Bring it on. You can still change my mind, I am not a tunnel machine. I pull out of shit tunnels all the time, as I did with GoodKarma in Chrono or SacredSystem in a newbie I subbed into with Zarepath months ago. You are right, we have more than enough time to deliberate, I am making my intentions known now so we can discuss it at depth. You want to change my mind? Go find scum. I'd like to think Ill know pretty quickly if what you're posting is genuine or piffle. | ||
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Adam4167
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On February 25 2013 12:47 cDgCorazon wrote: I still think Adam is lurking. Compared to most of the other people so far, he has been picking and choosing his times to talk very sparingly. Making one argument against Dieno and kind of attacking me/kind of not attacking me is really a drop in the ocean compared to the activity level the rest of the town has shown. I dropped my interest in you right about the time you said you wanted the two most abrasive and against-the-grain players to duel each other. That said to me that you are just being an emotional townie who wanted to get rid of people who weren't conforming to how you wanted the game played. I doubt scum would be making an argument like that, hence I have no interest in probing you further. | ||
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Adam4167
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On February 25 2013 13:06 cDgCorazon wrote: Seriously, I was asked the question based off of 3-4 pages of the thread... If you seriously want to go hung-ho and call all of the shots, go ahead. There's no point in arguing with you, and I doubt my crappy internet can beat you to typing ##Duel once the Night period is over. Let's imagine a gung-ho player decides to duel someone that they have a scum read on, but the rest of the town does not agree with their reasoning. How do you choose between someone playing aggressive and someone you have a town read on? It's either going to result in the gung-ho player getting lynched or making a lynch that you are not happy with. Both are a waste of a Day cycle and are free kills for the scum basically. That's my biggest problem with you and Yamato's approach to the duel system. The fact that Yamato called me scum for it and that you are calling me emotional over it is absolutely ridiculous. I call you emotional because I just cant see the logic behind wanting the two people causing the most discussion to duel each other. Mafia that sit in the spotlight almost always fry, and as a general rule, try to avoid it. The likelyhood of either of us being scum is not good as a result. In your hypothetical, Id kill whoever was displaying the least value to the town, as in nomination mafia. We aren't all going to agree with every lynch, and there will come a time when you may have to choose between two people you have some form of a town read on. If we all unanimously agree on all our reads then either a) our reads are wrong because the scum are agreeing with us, or b) the scum team is so inept that they got clean swept. | ||
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Adam4167
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On February 25 2013 16:24 Dienosore wrote: I've cooled off a bit on Adam. If he still wants to get some, I'm here to call his bluff, but I think our time is better spent looking at a few other people right now. His level of activity is about 10x's what I have seen in past games already. The connection between Marv and Snarf has me puzzled. I don't know what to make of it. Marv has heat coming in from a few directions, which is understandable considering how he has played so far, but Snarf on the other hand... he started off posting strong, boldly claimed towny, then kind of fell off the planet when people started agreeing with his policies. Seems fishy to just dump out like that after everything started agreeing and the spotlight was moved away. Secondly, Oatsmaster jumped into the conversation a bit late, but the way he did it has me a little suspicious. He instantly threw doubt on Cora and started attacking Marv. He hasn't said anything super incriminating yet, but he is definitely on my 'To Watch' list. Overall, there just really isn't enough info yet for me to be 100% about any read. I'm not even going to pretend I'm that good at mafia after two games to where I can call people out like that on day one. I definitely have a few suspicions, though I don't really see a reason to muddy up the waters with my speculation right now. Its not a bluff, I will call someone out for a duel when i'm satisfied that its the right call. In regards to your point on Oats - what is the likely-hood that a scum-Oats would come into this game and choose to attack a town-marv directly on day 1? | ||
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Adam4167
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I'm not interested in seeing Snarfs duel. Zarepath - I've given out reads on several players other than deino. | ||
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As per my question to deino, scum oats would not take town Marv head on. | ||
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I fully support this duel between Thrawn and Keirathi. Thrawn is taking ownership of his reads, something I mentioned yesterday, I respect that. That case against me was god awful, stinks of nothing-scum-case. It does nothing to illustrate why i'm scum, only that I was using logic that shows I think i'm town and everyone else should think it too. | ||
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On February 26 2013 14:27 thrawn2112 wrote: it doesn't have to be thrawn vs kei. in fact I prefer it to be kei vs someone else however i'm willing to do it If you will not, I will. My 'bravado', ask Keirathi put it, was not an act. | ||
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On February 26 2013 14:49 Keirathi wrote: I would be fine dueling thrawn. My point was, I think that would be easy for you to fake, especially in light of someone else already saying the exact same thing (so you could back out of it and just be like "Oh Yam did it first, sorry guyz"), and then using the opportunity to manipulate town opinion. If you're town, what was your goal with that statement? I can only see trying to bully people into a read of you, and I don't know why you would need to do that as town. My goal was to a) illustrate that I thought Yamato was town for going against the grain, as I was, and b) to stop people (corazon mainly) wasting time on focusing on someone I feel is clearly not scum. I feel like it did a good job of accomplishing those objectives. | ||
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On February 26 2013 14:51 thrawn2112 wrote: I'm getting the feeling that you have a town read on me.. is your scum read that strong on kei that you're willing to put both of us up for lynch? How's your read on deino going? I have you leaning town, yes, in virtue of your defending me against what I consider a sub-par case. I think his play this game is lacking the curiosity and conviction i see in most townies, with most of his posts being general statements as opposed to pursuing someone to discern their alignment. He does not seem to be looking for scum. My read on Deino remains unchanged leaning frustrated. Hes come back, posts more nothing, then slinks off again. I was willing to give him some time, as we had plenty, but my patience is evaporating. He never explained his 'Marv-Snarfs' connection that doesn't even exist, nor answer my question on Oats. | ||
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On February 26 2013 15:10 Keirathi wrote: So, if you are town and you believe yamato is town for being willing to go against the grain, then why do you need to "go against the grain" too? Do we need 2 townies on day 1 who are willing to step in for the duel? Did you mean "Oh, later on after yamato dies (because I think he's town and he can do it fine), I'll step up and duel people" ? The sentiment behind the idea is all well and good, but in your case it literally serves no purpose except to bully people into thinking you are town. I didn't 'need' to go against the grain. I put my thoughts forward that making two other people duel on your behalf was weak and cowardly, and that I would rather follow my own reads and duel them. That just happened to conflict with what everyone else wanted. I was never going to 'step in and duel' on towns behalf after yamato died or otherwise, as it flies blatantly in the face of what I was saying. I will duel who I think is scum, no one else. | ||
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Adam4167
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Even if I were stepping forward to 'duel on towns behalf after yamato died or otherwise', how does that show only scum motivation? It could just as easily be coming from a townie wanting to fight. Bad case. | ||
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Adam4167
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On February 26 2013 15:45 Keirathi wrote: Nothing else. I'm not entirely convinced Adam is scum, but I wanted some comments on it. You're brushing away my point with trivialities. I don't really give a shit what your actual stance on who should duel is, if you can provide good reasoning and show why its good for town. What does concern me is that I can't see any actual point to your stance. How is it beneficial to town? You see, the problem is, you may never even have to back your stance up in this game. What if every day we have a town collective agreement on who should duel? Or someone goes balls deep and duels on their own? Or someone refuses to duel, and we have a Likely Townie step in the duel the person who refuses? Etc, etc. When it gets to day 6 or something, and you've never had to actually back up your opinion on how you would handle the dueling, you can still say "But look guys, I'm town because I had a unique idea day 1 even though it didn't actually mean anything and I never had to put it into practice!" Do you not see how that could be beneficial for scum? I don't even know what the hell you're arguing anymore. Whatever it is, it isn't making me scum. Mess with the bull, you get the horns. ##Duel: Keirathi | ||
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On February 26 2013 16:45 thrawn2112 wrote: ##Vote: Keirathi adam mind explaining why you had to call for the duel right now? Because I felt like it. I came here to duel, not vote and then duel when everyone agrees like a watered down version of a normal mafia game. | ||
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On February 26 2013 16:46 Keirathi wrote: Congrats on your e-peen wagging contest. I was trying to explain my original paranoia and figure you out, but you jump the gun instead of giving people time to discuss it. Anyways I'm going to bed for reals now. G'nite. People can discuss it now. If they don't agree with my decision, then they can vote accordingly. You were trying to back out of a half-assed scum read after a day of doing nothing because the thread wasn't biting. | ||
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On February 26 2013 17:11 Oatsmaster wrote: Anyway YEAH ADAM BE A MAN. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS. so Adam, why are you playing differently in this game then in chrono trigger? You were in chrono-trigger, the answer should be somewhat evident. I nailed a scum on day 3 (Z-BosoN) and went entirely ignored, despite my cases, until even after he flipped scum, then was somehow named scum myself. I do not want to be ignored when I know i'm capable of catching scum. | ||
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On February 26 2013 17:20 Oatsmaster wrote: Huh ok, interesting. Do you play with Keirathi often? I never played with him before, but it seems to me like he didnt react to any of the pressure on him at all, maybe if he didnt acknowledge it, it would go away? Odd play for a townie. Well, he was in Chrono, so you have played with him before. I've played with him twice previously and I found him easily identifiable as town in both games. | ||
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On February 26 2013 17:22 yamato77 wrote: Despite my reads on the two of you before this, I will say that this was a truly horrid decision. Going to have to sit on this for a while. How was this horrible? I think hes scum, he's suspicious of me (but not directly calling me scum). Half the town thinks hes scum, half the town has me null or worse. It should provide a wealth of information, if not a scum death. | ||
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On February 26 2013 15:59 yamato77 wrote: Hey Keir, wanna take up your beef with Adam's stance with me? I'm pretty sure that guy's town, and it had nothing to do with agreeing with me. Your attack in him does seem to hinge on that point, that somehow his bravado is scum motivated, which would imply that mine was too, because I did it first as you pointed out. Honestly, I want to see Keir hang. Someone make it happen. Sylencia is another one I could live without right now. My null reads from earlier have returned to the thread and done fuck all to make me think they're townie. Time's a wastin' | ||
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On February 26 2013 17:41 yamato77 wrote: Now it's like the retarded end of day period where everyone's picking a wagon, only there hasn't been NEARLY ENOUGH discussion on these wagons to make either of them particularly attractive. Yet you didn't have a problem jumping on one instantly, even after declaring that you were going to sit on it for awhile? Yeah. OK. | ||
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On February 26 2013 17:44 yamato77 wrote: What I quickly realized was that you're more likely mafia than town for doing this. That's what that post you're trying to bury says, you know. I'm not burying shit. Its right there for everyone to see. My mafia play is lurky and passive, its right there in Hero mafia for everyone to see. If you think this is my mafia game, you're delusional. | ||
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On February 26 2013 17:48 yamato77 wrote: That is literally the only point in your favor right now, Adam. The only one. The only point in my favor is that i'm playing completely opposite to my scum meta? MMM GEE, SOUNDS LIKE A PRETTY GOOD POINT TO HAVE IN MY FAVOR. | ||
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On February 26 2013 17:53 yamato77 wrote: It's only a free-pass for so long, dude. At some point you have to judge people independent of their meta, which is what I'm doing. Your play here is mafia-motivated, as I've clearly outlined. You're not even arguing that part, you're arguing that you're somehow confirmed town because you aren't playing passive, which lets me in on the psychological mindset you have. You're concerned here with proving that you're town, not with proving that Keir is mafia, and that is exactly what Keir accused you of before. I'm arguing your points as you bring them up. You are trying awful hard right now to emphasis just how scummy you suddenly think I am. | ||
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You can cloud this all you like, it doesn't make it any less true. | ||
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I'm going to take a breather and look at this in an hour or two. | ||
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On February 26 2013 19:23 Acrofales wrote: Adam: if you're town, you're a selfish douche who is not playing in town's best interest. I will reevaluate you, but I really feel like policy lynching you for playing like this. I will now fight my instincts, because I don't think policy lyncing idiots is a good idea, but that's the way I feel right now. Well, I am town and you can call me whatever names you please, I give not a shit. I cant even promise that this wont happen again if I survive this cycle. + Show Spoiler + On February 26 2013 20:59 Acrofales wrote: Okay, my meta-analysis of Adam is pretty much done and confirmed my earlier thoughts about him. He is not a Kush-esque player who is prone to doing crazy shit because he feels like it. Here is his self-analysis from WLIIA: Bolded for emphasis. Adam is not an aggressive jump-the-gun kinda guy as town. Now he claims this hasn't worked for him in Chrono Trigger, however I didn't see him change his style in LVIII or when he replaced into LIX. Why does he suddenly feel the need to change up his playstyle now? Given that his playstyle is wildly different from any previous meta, we have to take it at face value. I have already stated why I think the gung-ho duel is scum motivated, but just to hammer in the point, here is bang bang mafia 2: + Show Spoiler [brief synopsis] + MZ seriously jumping the gun (first post of D3): On June 16 2012 17:27 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: After the game I'll tell you what you should have done differently supersoft. ##Shoot: Supersoft Ya'll ready for a pro gf snipe? Of course SS flipped town. This then dominated the thread for the next day, until MZ was shot and flipped godfather. The moral of the story: a town Adam would be more interested in the discussion. Shooting before town has had a real chance to consider and discuss is a scum move. It was so in the only other game with a similar mechanic and it is so here. I browsed Keirathi's filter in what seems to be his only scumgame ever and I agree that he was active and manipulative there. However, he now has a ton of town games loading on pressure to perform as scum. I wouldn't put too much stock in Keirathi's scum meta. His play is still wildly different from his town meta, which is far more developed. I still don't see enough in his play to consider him town. For now, therefore: ##vote: Double Lynch Lets just kill both of them. I think there's an excellent chance that one of them is scum and at the moment I cannot decide which one. I admit it seems highly unlikely they're both scum, but neither has given me a reason to think they're town. Seeing as we can kill both of them, I currently see no reason not to. Interesting analysis. Wrong though. In chrono you specifically lumped me in the same category as Kush. On November 21 2012 11:03 Acrofales wrote: It's no more silly than a pressure vote off the bat in a normal setup How do you know you don't gain anything from bringing vets. It's greymist and I am expecting minigames, unconfirmed masons and other shenanigans. Having a player like kush or adam there is NOT a good idea, even if they are town. You define my town play as "cocky" right here: On November 26 2012 23:54 Acrofales wrote: Adam meta: Scum in LVI, town in Whose line is it. As scum he is far less cocky. As I said at the start of the game, though, my experience playing with Adam as either alignment is that he lurks the crap out of the thread and gets modkilled for inactivity. So in Chrono, you categorized me like Kush, yet here not. In Chrono, you found me town because I am cocky, yet here not. Why are you arguing with yourself? | ||
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I really wish I was scum, it'd make post-game far more bearable. | ||
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Reading what has transpired since last night now. | ||
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His play is lacking conviction and curiosity. I use this to catch many scum players because it is extremely hard to fake. It is what made my vote on Sandroba so easy in ChronoTrigger mafia, when some of the town seemed undecided. On February 26 2013 11:01 Keirathi wrote: No solid reads yet. I'm interested in thrawn, obviously. The town thrawn I know is logical and takes his time to look at all sides of the situation, and I just haven't seen that from him this game. He's just been flying by the seat of his pants (iamp scum, no town, no scum again! Hapa should be a dueler tomorrow!) with little to no reasoning for his "reads". He claims to have no reads, and in the same post, posts about thrawn not playing in line with what he expects from 'town thrawn' - so a read. He doesn't pursue this read with any form of questioning, just leaves it hanging. Then his case on me, and it is a case, he even bolded my name at the top, suggested that I could be acting and how my actions were nefarious. We go back and forth and he ends up arguing that, among other things, I may never have to back up my desire to duel, which is somehow scummy. When this case gets shot down, he starts to back out in a "I never called him scum, don't put words in my mouth" kind of way, which is exactly what I tried in Hero mafia as scum. Since he's gone back to doing nothing. He's produced two reads for the game, neither of which he considers reads, neither of which he calls scum. | ||
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On February 27 2013 10:58 thrawn2112 wrote: lol adam I thought you were town when you called for the duel but each thing you've posted since then is scummier than what came before it why did you shoot keir right then and therre? why not dino? any scum reads you have outside of those too would also help. How is that post scummy? I specifically outline my thoughts and why I am thinking the way I am. I did it because you looked like you were backing out and I believe its the right move. Why not deino? because he hasn't even returned to the thread. Twice now we've got "be back soon" and then nothing. I wanted to converse with Deino more before I called a duel with him, I still think hes stalling scum, I still want to duel him too. Ill go over my reads in the next half hour as I write them up. | ||
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On February 27 2013 11:57 Dienosore wrote: They are only suspect because of how boring and mundane they are. It either means he is scum trying to blend in or is just a low impact towny. Right now, because of my read on Adam and the assumption that scum wont duel themselves so early in the game, I'm left with the conclusion that Keir is town. So by your logic, a scum Adam, that was under zero pressure, not in danger of being lynched at all, decides to call a duel on a semi-lurker and put himself up for a lynch as a result? When my alternative, as scum, would have been to sit back and let everyone else go at it and stay out of the limelight. Think about why I am doing this and what my alternatives were. There's only one smart answer and a stack of dumb ones. I've said it a dozen times now. | ||
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On February 27 2013 12:16 Dienosore wrote: @Adam: If you really were under zero pressure and not in danger of a lynch, then why not let Thrawn and Keirathi duel it out? I'm 95% sure that's the way the duel was heading until you jumped in. Why put yourself in danger like this? Asked and answered. Read my filter. | ||
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No. | ||
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On February 27 2013 12:24 Acrofales wrote: Then why can you not promise you won't pull such a stunt again? You have owned up to it being an anti-town move already. If you know that, why are you not able to promise you won't do it again? Because I don't have faith in the 'lets force two other people to duel' policy. Are we really going to go through all this again? | ||
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Whatever, this pointless. Ill post my thoughts on other people when I get back from the gym. | ||
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Oatsmaster I've not hidden the fact that I think Oats is town. Ill repeat it again because I still see people attacking him when time could be better spent on other people. In LIX, Oats rolled scum and Marv correctly Identified him as scum pretty swiftly. He lingered around a bit because of a quirk in the setup (him being made bodyguard), but eventually conceded when it was apparent he was done for. Look at it from his point of view. He's just seen marv obliterate his entire scum team in a faceroll in LIX. Now, hypothetically, he rolls scum in this game again, and the first thing he does is begin attacking the guy that correctly identified him as scum in the game previous? I think not. There were easier targets for a scum Oats to latch onto and pretend to be useful. Attempting to hide from marv until his death N0 is clearly the better move here for an inexperienced scum player. Now look at it from another perspective. Oats being town this game. Oats has just seen marvs destructive power romp a mafia team, and wants him to do it again, so he starts to question "why isn't he doing it again?". This is the far more likely of the two scenarios. His backflip on my calling of the duel, which he initially cheered on, is completely understandable. More experienced players are chastising me for it and he doesn't want to go against the grain. Oats will flip town if you kill him, I am almost certain. Snarfs People are questioning Snarfs alignment, and I consider it a waste of time. His first post, proclaiming town, just came off as so damn sincere. He's rolled mafia 3 times in the previous 3 games and he's finally excited to get back to what he does best (and what I think he does best) - being town and hunting scum. He asks many questions and is generally curious about finding scum. Yes he's been less than active, but so what, when he has been here, he's been making sense, acting logical and been open with his reads as they come to him. Snarfs will also flip town if you kill him. Iamperfection Town. He literally blurts out his reads as he sees them. This is vintage iamp town play. He's confident and not afraid to shove it in your face - link Do not waste time considering him as scum. cDgCorazon Most probably town. He's remained consistent with his 'hatred for heroes' throughout this game, which is mainly why I called him emotional (something he didn't like). He's gone after Sylencia, again, something I believe is an emotional response because Sylencia called him out for his play in previous games. He also wasn't afraid to bash heads with Yamato when it came to it. Posts like this - link - just look very town to me. There are other people that are far more likely to result in a scum-flip. Sylencia Yeah this one will be controversial. Fuck it. I think he's town. Look at his first post. link He opens the game by confronting cDgCorazon over his piss poor attitude. This is confrontational, and he doesn't care. He speculates a bit about third parties, which says townie paranoia to me. I don't feel scum are likely to do this as they fear being accused of making idle speculation on the setup. Again, here, he confronts me about "the game not being all about me and my reads". He's clearly got the towns interest and the interest of the game as a whole in mind when he's making this post, and I suspect if he were scum, he wouldn't have tried to sway me off my warpath. I don't see scum here. Yes he hasn't done much, but what he has done hasn't been malicious. Alderan Probably town. His first post is great, accusing Deino for the same things I saw, also taking a shot at snarfs. I find scum generally like to tunnel a single person, especially new scum, so coming out with multiple suspicions always looks good in my books. He is happy to butt heads with Acro and iamp (two well respected players) over the use of the double lynch. I don't really get a sense of fear out of his filter, something I'd expect from his number of games played, if he were scum. Thrawn Thrawn is another probably-town. He seems to be acting in a logical and sensible manner, telling people when they're 'reaching' - here and here He asks a lot of questions, trying to get everyone's opinion on a subject, while also volunteering his own. He continues to refocus people on the current problem at hand, the duel, when others are wandering off-track. His continual refocusing of people onto Keirathi when they're getting side-tracked on my meta looks very good to me. His scum meta is to literally afk out of a game, which stands at odds with his current filter. Hapahauli Hapa, I read as maybe-town. I'm a bit miffed that he's taken a bit of a back seat in this game and hasn't been as forceful or as damaging as he was in Witchcraft. Id say his play lines up a lot more with that of Hero mafia, where he was town, but struggled a bit to establish it. Still, he asks good questions, such as asking marv to expand on his thoughts of Cora. He's being logical and using his brain here and here. Unfortunately, he's defended two people that I have scum reads on (Deinosore and Zarepath). Maybe his reads are wrong. Maybe my reads are wrong. Both are possible. Id probably consider lynching him if any of my scum reads manage to flip town. Acrofales Here's where I'm torn. Like Hapa, Acro took mostly a back-seat to day 1, which I find unlike his play in Chrono. Granted that was 3rd party play, but he was playing as pro-town as possible, so I just consider it a town game for him. He asks good questions, tells Yamato and Cora to stop shitting up the thread, and isn't afraid to voice his opinion. Unfortunately, he says not once but twice that I am not playing to my scum meta, yet calls it 'too early to tell' in regards to my alignment. He theorizes that my scum play has gone off the rails after the absolute pasting I got in Hero via Palmar, which I will grant is a possible conclusion. His bloodlust in wanting both myself and keirathi dead has me concerned, he does seem more interested in punishing my 'bad play'. What scares me is that all of this isn't out of the realm of possibility for his scum play. I'm conflicted on this one, see what he does later. Yamato and Keirathi I lump both of these together because I honestly believe they're most probably going to be the same alignment. Scum. Keirathi i've already gone over and recapped, find it in my filter. I originally believed Yamato to be town, but his backflip after my calling for a duel gave forced me to reconsider. He called for the duel, wanted Keirathi to hang, got what he wanted, then didn't want it anymore. Lets look at this hypothetically from multiple angles: Yamato-scum, Keirathi-town. In this situation, Yamato has no cause to backflip his reads. Adam's come along to wipe Keirathi out and a mislynch is secured for Yamato and his scum team, so why draw attention to yourself by 180'ing your reads. Unlikely. Yamato-town, Keirathi-scum/town. He had a scum read on Keriathi, seems to want him dead, and someone he claims to have a 'pretty sure he's town' read on is coming along to make that happen. I really don't see much of a cause for a read-flip here. It is possible, but not as likely as... Yamato-scum, Keirathi-scum. He busses Keirathi due to his low activity day 1, expecting Keriathi to go into a duel with someone like Thrawn, who he also had a mafia read on and can contrive some logic to make Thrawn more scummy than Keirathi, ridding town of thrawn and saving Keriathi in the process. Insert 'bull-in-china-shop' Adam. Someone he's claimed a town read on has now called a duel against someone he's claimed a scum read on. This is a huge problem as it forces him to back flip both his reads in order to save his team mate. I find this to be the most likely situation. Hate on it for being an association case, whatever, these are my thoughts. Deinosore Scum. I've discussed previously. Initial post was shit, wishywashy, did nothing. Since has been stalling and is yet to provide anything of worth. Needs to go ASAP. Zarepath Zarepath has been good enough to post two list-posts worth of reads for us to look at, so lets look at them. This post Is a summary post and does very little to further the scum hunt. He commentates for close to 3 paragraphs on Yamato, Hapa and Thrawn before brushing all of them aside and attacking Sylencia for being afk. If Sylencia was his top scum read, I feel like it should have been placed at the beginning of this post and opened with, as its the point he feels most strongly about, not buried under 3 paragraphs of rubbish. his second reads post Again, another post of summaries and commentaries. Not a single alignment given, yet he mentions 8 people and labels it "reads and suspicions". This wall of text is about as padded as you can find, concluding nothing, accomplishing nothing. I think he has a great chance of flipping scum. | ||
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Also, this post here post. Does not think that me being stupid and Keirathi being useless is a good enough argument to kill both of us, and wants to see significant evidence of scumminess. Why ask for people to produce something when you can just jump on guilt free because im 'stupid' and keriathi 'useless'. | ||
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I put these up before someone has the chance to hammer me and I don't get to say my piece. Ill be back tomorrow morning, approximately 12 hours from now. Assuming i'm not dead. | ||
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Though they're disapprovin' Keep them dogies movin' Rawhide! Don't try to understand 'em Just rope, throw, and brand 'em Soon we'll be living high and wide. My hearts calculatin' My true love will be waitin', Be waitin' at the end of my ride. Rawhide! HYAAAAW!!!! | ||
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On February 28 2013 10:55 Oatsmaster wrote: And all the scumbuddies bussed the hell out of keirathi. Alderan, why were you so concerned that a double lynch was happening? There was still like 8-10 hours to go or more. Plenty of time to see a switch. Also, you pushed it so hard then when keirathi flipped town you were suprised? Like what? Then why did you push keirathi over adam SO HARD when you thought that they were both town? Oats, This information is all readily available in his filter: He had a light town read on both of us. He vehemently disagreed with the use of a double-lynch. He pushed for Keirathi to die because I was showing more effort - in his mind, the lesser of two evils. | ||
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Double lynch is like a no lynch. Except both people are dead. So nothing like a no lynch. Why would two people he had a town read on both dying be 'ok'? You aren't making any sense. | ||
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I mention this specifically earlier when Cora asked me about it: On February 25 2013 13:28 Adam4167 wrote: In your hypothetical, Id kill whoever was displaying the least value to the town, as in nomination mafia. We aren't all going to agree with every lynch, and there will come a time when you may have to choose between two people you have some form of a town read on. If we all unanimously agree on all our reads then either a) our reads are wrong because the scum are agreeing with us, or b) the scum team is so inept that they got clean swept. Because keirathi was doing jack-squat, he valued me higher than Keirathi and thus to prevent two townie deaths, he just wants to kill the more useless one and only have one townie death - Keirathi. | ||
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There are plenty of people that look worse than he does. | ||
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On February 27 2013 11:33 Dienosore wrote: Late day at the office. Got back about an hour ago and caught up on the thread. I promised an investigation into the duelers, so here it is. Adam4167 + Show Spoiler + Timeline: - immediately busts into the thread with a vigilante disposition and challenges me to a duel. - begins to argue with marv - cuts me down - prods Corazon a few times, calls him uninteresting, then drops him - tells Zarepath he's given out reads on several players, when actually he has done very little other than accuse me of scum and clear Corazon. - clears Oats - supports Thrawn/Keir duel. - threatens Keir with a duel - clears Thrawn - defends his stance a bit more, then snaps a duel on Keir - general posturing, says his mafia meta is lurky and passive, calls Yamato delusional - reinforces that his play isnt mafia motivated a few times. - outright claims town Summary: I have to admit that I am a bit biased due to our previous interactions, but I can't shake the feeling that this guy is scum. He seems to be trying to cause as much chaos as possible, then once all the shit has been slung, reinforces over and over again that he is town. He also seems to be exclusively picking on the Keirathi + Show Spoiler + Timeline: - disagrees with Thrawn's stance to just 'let things happen as they will' - says Thrawn is currently his biggest scumread - puts suspicion on Adam due to his rogue bravado - tries to advance our dueling policy - says he is willing to duel Thrawn - argues a bit more with Adam about dueling policy - gets called out by Adam - general defending Summary: As I said earlier, I was completely surprised by Adam snapping on Keir. I've gone through Keir's filter a few times since the duel was called, but I still can't find anything that sticks out as obviously scum motivated. Other than a bit of back and forth banter mostly discussing dueling policy, he has kept a relatively low profile. The only real aggression shown has been directed towards a scummy looking Thrawn. It's true his activity has been a little slow, but not so much that I'd see any reason to raise any alarms. Overall, I'd say he has been playing it overly safe, if anything. So with that, I feel compelled to cast my vote now. Considering how the game started, I don't think it's going to surprise anyone. ##Vote: Adam4167 After this guttertrash analysis, and the resulting flip - Deino goes into the duel tomorrow or D3 will be the shortest cycle in TL history. | ||
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You do not have a say in the matter of when I do or do not initiate duels | ||
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On February 28 2013 11:57 iamperfection wrote: Guys Guys Guys I have a sick case for hapa He said he would be back in an hour and then he didn't You know what this means well do you? It means he does not care about town. hapa can die. He can be a leader and he isnt he could name the whole scum team as town by now he isnt hapa is Mafia Push legitimate cases. Then Ill agree with your duel choices. | ||
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How the hell is not being here 24/7 mafia motivated? its calling having a life outside this forum. | ||
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Until I give you a reason to think i'm not gunning for scum anymore, you have nothing to worry about. This fascination with the double lynch is just, frankly, lazy. Its going to lead to an entire cycle of people sitting around doing absolutely nothing. | ||
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On March 01 2013 07:02 yamato77 wrote: Lol, what a weird fucking reaction to an NK. Not really. I went to bed last night expecting that either iamp or myself weren't going to be here in the morning. | ||
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I don't begin to assume how this game as balanced, but I have more games then your entire scum team combined. | ||
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On March 01 2013 07:20 Acrofales wrote: If you want to catch the scumteam all at once, what is it according to you? This is about my 16th or so game, so still more than keirathi, according to his profile. Regardless.. Deino needs to flip. That will give me a very good indication as to yourself, considering how you were defending him on D1. Deino flips scum, the remaining scum will probably be yourself and one of Zare/Yamato - as per my reads post. | ||
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I don't like your interactions with deino. I don't like his flip-flop on Keirathi. Him attacking you hours before a daypost that some expect you to die in could be a convenient ploy. | ||
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Nope. Did you read my list? | ||
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You've since dumpstered his initial post, for exactly the same reasons that I did on day 1, yet after your first read on day 1, he was 'top 4 town' and now hes scum for the same post. | ||
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On March 01 2013 07:40 cDgCorazon wrote: So as long as he doesn't do anything "bad", you're still not going to have a scum read on him? I feel like he cares town. I have higher priority scum reads elsewhere. If hes scum playing for endgame, hes going to have a heck of a time trying to convince anyone to do anything he says when we get there, so we kill him later. | ||
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On March 01 2013 07:53 Acrofales wrote: Two ways of reading that post: scum flailing around or newbie town flailing around. At the time I gave him doubt. If YOU had made that post I would have nailed you to the cross. Or Hapa. However, it was someone who is legitimately a newbie town and I remembered making strange nonsense reads. Two things have changed since then: 1. Newbie town generally gets its shit together with as little pressure as there was on him and starts trying to contribute. Dieno never made that transition. So that leaves the "scum flailing around" explanation. 2. I refreshed my meta read on Dieno and found that while his reads were sometimes nonsensical, he took firm viewpoints and argued for them. Both of these point to a scum Dieno, rather than a town Dieno. Anyway, I caught scum D1. WTF is your problem. 'WTF is my problem?' You think i'm 3rd party, why do you give a shit what my problem is! This is a setup that favors the bus. I bet my life that its 11 v 4, considering scum have only shown a single KP all game and we have no evidence of 3rd party -which means their KP will most probably remain fixed at 1. That is a bus-setup as losing additional members does not impact KP potential, as long as they get one of their members in towns good graces, they can ride it out til end game while people work out the carnage. Go read Arkham City, Radfield identified a bus-friendly setup, and the entire scum team filled the town with so many bogus reads that when it came to endgame, we were completely lost. I consider it likely that you bussed Keirathi due to his poor activity. I think you tried to save Deino D1 because double bussing seemed excessive but his play was so hard to defend that you got caught out. But of course, I cant confirm any of my suspicions until Dieno is dealt with. | ||
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I think you were dealt an AFK team and tried to make something out of it, yes. I could be wrong, you are not my priority right now. Dieno I feel far more strongly about. But these are the thoughts running around in my head, and I have no reason to hide them. | ||
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Think of it from a scum perspective. You're going down today, so your dying act is to drag down one of your teammates.... to what end? Get this game closer to finishing? Nah. To no-ones surprise here, i'm backing my reads in: Dieno scum, Sylencia town. ##Vote: Deinosore | ||
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On March 01 2013 11:32 Acrofales wrote: Before I go to bed, there's one thing that I thought of for the redacting of the scum wincon: there might be two scumteams. Just a theory for now, but it's one of the few reasons I can think of for redacting the wincon. I find it unlikely that there are two scum teams. There's only been 1KP. Having two teams, with one KP between them, is horribly unfair to the team not shooting. | ||
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On March 01 2013 10:32 Acrofales wrote: Both scum should not be ruled out entirely. They were under significant pressure to duel each other and they know that this way they *might* have an opportunity for one of them to clear his name. It's a risk, but they were almost certainly both going to end up on the chopping block anyway (one today, other tomorrow). This way it can maybe work in their favour. Anyway, I'll assess them individually, rather than as an either/or pair. It's not the same situation as Adam/Keir, where Adam could have picked virtually anybody to duel. I'm comfortable ruling out both scum - to expand on what I said earlier: With this towns rampant attitude towards double lynching before the duel began - Acro, Thrawn, Oats, Corazon, the odds of reaching a single majority in this duel seemed pretty unlikely, as we needed 6 to hammer. With both Dieno and Sylencia being first and second on a majority of the towns lynch list, a double lynch looks to be almost a sure thing. Why would you drag your scum teammate into a duel against a kill-happy town that is more than likely just going to kill you both, shredding any form of cred you were hoping to gain and leaving the scum team in an unwinnable position. Assuming we only kill one, the remaining member is still very high on everyones kill-list for the rest of the game. The risk is enormous, the payoff is nothing. Now look at it the other way - them being opposite alignments. Dieno came into today with a bullseye on his head. I made it known that if he wasn't in today's duel, hes a dead man tomorrow, even if I had to die with him via town revenge. So he calls this duel with a bad looking townie that he hopes to take out with him to not die empty handed, assuming the town falls for the double lynch, as looked likely from the start of the day. I don't buy for a second that there's two scum here, and I'm going to save any townie I can, regardless of how useful they're being. | ||
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Assuming you start with the premise that dieno is scum, which I have no issue doing as his filter just smacks of scum. | ||
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Dieno's filter has all the hallmarks of new scum. Being overly friendly, not ruffling feathers, being wishy-washy, overreactions to pressure, zero scum-hunting, backing in a teammate with non-existent logic. While I see little redeeming in Sylencia's filter in the way of progressing the scum hunt, he was willing to butt heads with Cora with his very first post, what new scum does that? His very first post draws attention to himself by starting a shit-fight. In a game with half a dozen well-versed town players, that's NUTS. He also didn't have a problem putting me in my place for being a Cowboy. With super-shark Marv swimming around the tank, I expect the scum, at least the newer scums, were all laying quite low N0 until they could bump him off and go to work. | ||
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I know you want him dead so badly, but strategically for him and dieno to both be scum, they're declaring they're throwing this game and killing off two of their members for zero gain. | ||
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That flip eases the pain, ever so slightly. | ||
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You two are going to have to work together to finish this tomorrow. | ||
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More than half the thread wanted me dead right here. I cannot reconcile this post with the scum teams desires. No way in hell this is a bus. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17895645 Stands firmly against the double lynch. Why not kill me and Keirathi both if hes scum and bussing? at least grab an erratic townie for your efforts. | ||
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On March 02 2013 11:16 thrawn2112 wrote: yep ##Vote: Dienosore syl goes up for lynch tomorrow regardless of what dieno flips If he is going up for another duel tomorrow, why not just kill him there and then and not gift the scum team an extra night-kill? I can see why someone would take that as suspicious. Still doesn't change my read on you either. Continually redirecting people back onto Keirathi when they were getting hung up on my meta was townie as fuck. | ||
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On March 02 2013 16:28 thrawn2112 wrote: bussing all of your teammates instantly would be the only smart way for mafia to survive this game. everyone had been calling dieno and keir scum since their first posts. I dispute this point. Two people were calling Deino town and 'top 4 town' at the end of N0. Go filter dive if you cant remember who they were. They're the two last scum by the way. | ||
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There's no way in hell I'm seeing another cycle, so full cases will come when I get home in a couple hours. Those two are scum. Everyone needs to put their disagreements aside and kill them first. | ||
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On February 25 2013 09:12 yamato77 wrote: That's so absurdly dumb and wrong I am almost certain you're mafia. All I've said the whole time is that I don't think it's going to work, and that I'll be there to fix the problem if it doesn't. Many times I have said I am not messing with the policy itself unless I feel like it isn't working. What about that is so difficult to understand, Acro? On February 25 2013 09:18 yamato77 wrote: When I read that post I see Marv buddying and misrepresentation of my stance on the matter. Hilariously scummy. Scummiest thing posted yet. These comments were directed at Acro. Yamato is almost certain he's mafia - defining him as hilariously scummy and 'scummiest thing posted yet'. And that's the last we hear from Yamato on Acro until Yamato makes his 'big list of reads' post: + Show Spoiler + On February 25 2013 16:37 yamato77 wrote: For reference, I'm going to post my list of reads of the game right now. I don't really care if people think I'm right or wrong, but I'll include most relevant alignment indicative information to go along with it. TOWN Town criteria vary from person to person, and a lot of quick town reads I get are based on meta or simple activity in conjunction with meta. For some players, these things don't apply so much, so I judge them based on reads. You guys can figure out which ones of these I get how, because I hate telling people why I have a town read on them, in general. Marv Corazon Adam Iamp Dienosore Oats NULL These players either haven't posted enough or are posting things that don't give me an alignment feel of them. Obviously. Snarfs Acrofales <----- Look at this right here Keirathi Zarepath Alderan Sylencia Lots of lurky fuckers so far this game and one ambiguous dude. MAFIA HAPA A lot of his early posting was devoted to arguing with me about the setup, which many people did, but the way he did it bothered me, and it is exemplified in this post. He parroted Marvellosity a lot and generally tried to follow him. Example: First he makes this post, asking Marv to expand on Cora, and Marv does. What is interesting here is Hapa's next move: He begins a line of questioning with Cora, presumably with a negative attitude toward him. How does he follow up? Meekly. So far a lot of his posting is this kind of thing, where he mildly scolds a player (myself, Corazon, etc) for doing something vaguely anti-town. He doesn't seem particularly interested in finding mafia, just with appearing to do so with vague questions that he never really pushes, such as this: He comments on things in people's play, but I haven't seen him make a real comment about alignment aside from iamperfection yet this game, and I'm not at all sold on that idea. I don't believe Hapahauli is concerned with finding mafia, but I do think he's doing a particularly good job blending in by asking a lot of questions and being mildly active. His mafia meta is somewhat close to this, if I remember Dessert correctly, so I'm interested to see how it develops. So far, he's been different from the town-leader Hapahauli that I am used to seeing. THRAWN Mostly a meta read, to be honest. In Normal Mini IV, iamperfection accurately categorized thrawn's mafia play as lurky, and successfully lynched him on that idea. So far he's been fairly lurky, and what he has posted doesn't exactly inspire confidence in me with the idea that he's town. His biggest interaction is with Oats, and I don't see where he reaches any sort of conclusion about Oats in it. Also of note is his "scum read" on iamp, which he has wholly failed to justify beyond: and To me, that's not exactly evidence of strong scumhunting. Perhaps time will flesh this out, but right now I'm not impressed. Anyway, it's early and a bunch of people have yet to post but that's where I sit right now. I'm going to bed. I'll be sporadically active the next couple of days, but I'll have enough time to catch some mafia for sure. Acro, who hours earlier was 'the scummiest thing in the thread so far', is now 'Null' for apparently not posting enough alignment indicative stuff. He then goes on to build a case against Hapa and Thrawn instead. Also notice something I pointed out earlier, his town read on Dieno. He never mentions Dieno besides asking him 'any reads will do', yet he's happy to give him a town read after that abortion of a first post and the way he reacted to my pressure? I just cant buy that hes got this read so wrong. Dieno was textbook new-scum and it was damn obvious because literally half the thread dove on his first post shortly after he posted it. He then lightly attacks Acro again: On February 26 2013 03:06 yamato77 wrote: I will admit, Acro's posting in response to me calling for Hapa to duel is out of place. He disagrees with me, but seemingly still believes Hapa is mafia for his own reasons. It's odd that he feels he needs to cut me off there. And again, does not follow this up, instead switching back to attacking Hapa, before shifting focus to my discussion with Keirathi. Then comes his well documented back flip on his read on me, which I explained earlier in my reads post during D1. I suspect the scum team were trying to get Keirathi and Thrawn into a duel, as many people had scum reads on them both, hoping to swing it onto Thrawn and secure a mislynch. I shit that plan up, forcing him to flip his read. | ||
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I have never not had a town read on Sylencia. Why would I let you kill someone I have a town read on. | ||
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What incentive does a newbie scum have telling a mental-box townie to curb his aggression since "the game isn't all about his reads". Hes telling me to stop being an idiot before I get myself mislynched, what scum is going to tell you to stop acting in a manner that is more likely to get you lynched. Short of him copying a scum role-pm into the thread and claiming mafia, I wasn't changing that read. | ||
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On March 03 2013 00:44 Oatsmaster wrote: Wait why Acro? Also Cora. You dont get to be a hero when you criticized it earlier. So please bring it back after we mislynch like 2 times. Sometimes, I wonder if you read anything I post. He gave a town read on Dieno. TOP 4 TOWN READ. Acro is better than that. The Acro that just steamrolled CT mafia isnt giving a TOP 4 TOWN READ to someone making posts like Dieno was. Its just not happening. | ||
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Take a close look at what happened right after Keirathi flips red, discussion turns to who should be in the next duel. Thrawn says: On February 28 2013 06:52 thrawn2112 wrote: and yeah I think I also want the deino vs slyencia duel Deino/Syl: Do either of you think the other person deserves to be lynched and would you be willing to duel them? To which Acro replies: On February 28 2013 06:58 Acrofales wrote: I prefer Zare/Sylencia. Zare looks REALLY terrible with the Keir flip. Trying to sub his scummy teammate out of the duel. I never thought Zarepath looked that bad after the Keirathi flip, so moving him above Deinosore in the 'to be duelled' queue caught my attention, keeping in mind that Dienosore has just posted this: On February 27 2013 11:33 Dienosore wrote: Late day at the office. Got back about an hour ago and caught up on the thread. I promised an investigation into the duelers, so here it is. Adam4167 + Show Spoiler + Timeline: - immediately busts into the thread with a vigilante disposition and challenges me to a duel. - begins to argue with marv - cuts me down - prods Corazon a few times, calls him uninteresting, then drops him - tells Zarepath he's given out reads on several players, when actually he has done very little other than accuse me of scum and clear Corazon. - clears Oats - supports Thrawn/Keir duel. - threatens Keir with a duel - clears Thrawn - defends his stance a bit more, then snaps a duel on Keir - general posturing, says his mafia meta is lurky and passive, calls Yamato delusional - reinforces that his play isnt mafia motivated a few times. - outright claims town Summary: I have to admit that I am a bit biased due to our previous interactions, but I can't shake the feeling that this guy is scum. He seems to be trying to cause as much chaos as possible, then once all the shit has been slung, reinforces over and over again that he is town. He also seems to be exclusively picking on the Keirathi + Show Spoiler + Timeline: - disagrees with Thrawn's stance to just 'let things happen as they will' - says Thrawn is currently his biggest scumread - puts suspicion on Adam due to his rogue bravado - tries to advance our dueling policy - says he is willing to duel Thrawn - argues a bit more with Adam about dueling policy - gets called out by Adam - general defending Summary: As I said earlier, I was completely surprised by Adam snapping on Keir. I've gone through Keir's filter a few times since the duel was called, but I still can't find anything that sticks out as obviously scum motivated. Other than a bit of back and forth banter mostly discussing dueling policy, he has kept a relatively low profile. The only real aggression shown has been directed towards a scummy looking Thrawn. It's true his activity has been a little slow, but not so much that I'd see any reason to raise any alarms. Overall, I'd say he has been playing it overly safe, if anything. So with that, I feel compelled to cast my vote now. Considering how the game started, I don't think it's going to surprise anyone. ##Vote: Adam4167 So not only is Dienosore not his prime candidate, he's bumped him back as far as -at least- 3rd highest to be duelled. Keeping in mind that Keirathi has flipped red only minutes earlier, making Dieno look AWFUL. Acro then wastes what literally must have taken hours putting together a case on Zarepath, finds it unconvincing and then posts it anyway, along with dismantling Zarepaths case against Keirathi, a completely pointless exercise that only serves to say 'hey guys, I'm doing stuff, see?'. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17900561 I've written probably a dozen cases in my mafia-playing career that I've found unconvincing and I've posted exactly zero of them. What townie wants to fill the thread with shit that they never intend to act upon, nor mention again? It is blatant padding. Acro finally caves on his 'dieno is cute and i like maps' read shortly after this, realizing it is hopeless trying to save him. If Acro is scum then why was he pushing for a double-lynch when Adam and Keirathi were in a duel? I hear you saying. Simple. He couldn't back out of his 'Keirathi is scum' read from N0 without taking an epic amount of heat. In fact I think he was probably considering it right about here: On February 27 2013 12:34 Acrofales wrote: Fine, I'm happy killing you. Now all that's left to figure out is whether I really want to kill Keirathi as well or not. But decided it would still draw too much heat after keirathi's eventual flip, which was unavoidable, so he bussed him further: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17894289 | ||
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Adam4167
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On March 03 2013 01:24 Acrofales wrote: Fine, I'll duel yamato and you can kill both of us. I trust Adam to ride this game out to victory anyway. Just lynch Zare after I'm dead. Yep, works for me. I'd kill him if one of you two flipped town. | ||
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Adam4167
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Follow the plan. | ||
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Kill them both. | ||
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Otherwise, ill probably just go one of them. | ||
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That doesn't strike you as slightly odd? | ||
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This would be a totally different situation if they'd gone 'null' or 'yeah scummy whatever' on him, but town? I just don't see their radar's being that off the mark. | ||
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Adam4167
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Balls in your court Yamato. Still waiting on that case on Hapa, by the way. | ||
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You either orchestrated this night-kill to bring up this exact argument. Or my read on you is wrong. Something I'll have to ponder while we exterminate Yamato. | ||
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Yamato is scum for reasons previously discussed. Hapa is town for reasons previously discussed. | ||
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On March 04 2013 04:21 yamato77 wrote: And the Hapa = Town reasoning is...? No comment on the case you said I wasn't going to build? This is just lazy. As you wish. I'm at work for another 4 hours and then I will go over all of these things. | ||
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On March 02 2013 16:23 Adam4167 wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17886669 More than half the thread wanted me dead right here. I cannot reconcile this post with the scum teams desires. No way in hell this is a bus. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17895645 Stands firmly against the double lynch. Why not kill me and Keirathi both if hes scum and bussing? at least grab an erratic townie for your efforts. Point 1 may be debatable, but point 2 is undeniable. Any scum that was going through with bussing Keirathi would have been pushing for a double-lynch on day 1. Think about it from a scum perspective: Why would you give up your teammate for nothing when you could just as easily bus him and also take a townie out. THINK. Hapa is not mafia. | ||
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He was not pigeonholed into any reads, yet he chose the least beneficial options for a scum player. That is either the worlds most super bus or.... hes not mafia! | ||
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No. Worries. | ||
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I'm sorry, but I just don't see that coming from the guy that claimed godfather in nested spoilers..... (no offense Hapa) | ||
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I want every single one of you that has town in your role PM to go back and read exactly what thrawn had to say before he died last night. Go back and read Yamato's backflip after I call for the duel on Keirathi. If you genuinely believe that keeping Yamato alive is the better option after that, then I honestly don't know what more I can say to you. | ||
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On March 04 2013 12:33 yamato77 wrote: I really don't care what people think about my alignment anymore Think about why Hapa has a scum read on me. Very conveniently timed. Of course he's not going to stop arguing about it, because to admit defeat here is to die for certain. I'm all for town lynching me so long as one of you has the sack to lynch Hapa tomorrow. Give the man what he wants. | ||
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While you're here, you can explain to me where your scum read on Acro went N0, outlined in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17919426 | ||
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Adam4167
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I really cant see a townie mindset for doing that. I have a half-dozen reasons to think you're scum, I've covered them extensively in my filter. | ||
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The fact that you think you've played a townier game than Hapa just highlights how out of perspective your view on this game is. Do I really think Hapa would play this passive? Yes, I've seen it first hand in Hero mafia, this is well within his wheelhouse as town. Be it from time-constraints or just a general feeling of being lost, he hasn't taken the lead, but so what, he hasn't needed to. You have done close to nothing since I called that duel on Keirathi, so calling yourself not passive is again showing your lack of perspective. The most noteworthy thing is a case on Acro that you 'proved' he was mafia: On March 01 2013 01:56 yamato77 wrote: You're good at arguing Too bad I have already proven you're mafia, and you can't refute it, because it's with words you typed! You make it too easy. Then you think hapa is mafia, and all of a sudden acro is town: On March 03 2013 04:14 yamato77 wrote: Lol, have two townies duel and double lynch them This is hilarious. You guys kill my motivation to play. Your whole interaction with him this game just stinks of a poorly executed bus. | ||
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I have considered the possibility I am wrong - and then discounted it once I looked at everything again. Your actions make far more sense from a mafia perspective. You do not look townier than him. Your case against him is filled with taking his words out of context and 'what ifs' and 'coincidences'. If this were bang-bang, id have shot you on the spot for posting it. I grow tired of this. I'm not trying to convince you that you are mafia, as that would be pointless. Its my goal to get everyone else to see what I already do. | ||
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On March 05 2013 07:33 cDgCorazon wrote: A scum realizing that he needed to bus his teammates a ridiculous amount in order to distance himself from their flips would do the same exact thing Hapa did. If you were going to bus your teammates 'a ridiculous amount', why would you post this? On February 27 2013 04:13 Hapahauli wrote: Yes and yes. None of my top scumreads are on the block right now. Hes already voting Keirathi at this point. If you were going to bus here, wouldn't you be 100% adamant that Keirathi was scum because 'insert shitty reasons dragged out of his filter'. For me to agree to that Cora, you're telling me that he decided to bus his team mate for town credit, then declined it when it was up for the taking. | ||
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Adam4167
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180's without justification draw attention, just as you're proving. Unless Hapa is trying to double-fake out, a scum hapa would be more likely to back out of his read by actually putting some shitty justifications in there for his 180, like Yamato's back flip on me. As to those quotes: The first quote, thrawns, specifically says "kill Yamato first". Marvs reads are horrendously outdated at this point, having not been around for a single duel. I still really respect his input, and have referenced his reads several times, but Marv also had Thrawn as "kill it with fire", only for him to flip town. Iamp, well, he tried to get me killed also, so I know some of his reads are off the mark as well. | ||
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If you're going to bus there, you'd commit to it and completely railroad Keirathi. | ||
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Someone did. Someone he had a town read on. It should have been an open and shut case for Yamato, he asked for it, got it, vote goes down, exactly like Thrawn did. And you didn't have a townread on me, you had 'not playing to scum meta, but null'. | ||
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It wasn't. Which makes it unlikely to be a bus. Scum want to ride a bus for all its worth to get something out of losing a team mate. You can throw your vote back on Hapa, i reread the relevant part of the game, I still think Hapa will flip town. | ||
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Someone has to die here. I cannot agree to it being Hapa, so by default - Yamato. | ||
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I do not see this as a bus. If it is, I will give Hapa much more credit from now on, because this was really well done. | ||
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Dieno overreacted badly to my pressure on D0, plenty of people went completely silent on it, Hapa wasn't one of those. Drawing attention to your teammates fuckups so early on N0 is unlikely, as acro has already pointed out, scum don't bus unless they have to. | ||
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On March 05 2013 12:56 yamato77 wrote: Let the double lynch happen I doubt Hapa flipping mafia would change Adam's mind about me anyway, and I don't really want to be in another one of these things. Seriously, quit the fucking sulking, its getting old. You called this duel and put up a shitty case, why am I going to respond to that with anything but suspicion? Here's your case, here's my answer: On March 03 2013 18:39 yamato77 wrote: People still want me dead? I'm flattered you guys think I could do what I've done this game as mafia, but for real, I am town. Will be posting that case on Hapa I promised sometime soon. Or.... Right now. This is Hapa's official stance on the lynch day 1. He won't pick one and call them a bonafide scum read, he'll just call Adam town and lynch Keirathi based off that. This reeks of being extremely non-committal and basically just following thread sentiment, which was against Keirathi before the duel and only slightly shifted after the duel was called for. Town Hapa has balls. This Hapa does not. Your whole argument for this section is that town hapa has balls and this hapa has none. I've disagreed multiple times. It takes balls to go against the crowd sentiment. I've also outlined why I don't find this likely to be a bus, because he didn't milk it for anything. On March 05 2013 12:56 yamato77 wrote: His stance that he never changes for the day 2 duel. Of note is that mafia dieno magically called for this very duel after Hapa posted this, and Hapa got to push this very agenda; one of killing both Dieno and Sylencia. Again, he takes no strong stances regarding the lynch. Coincidence. And thrawn called for this duel way before Hapa did. Thrawn took the exact same stance as Hapa did. How can you use this as conclusive proof of Hapa's guilt? It is not anything of the sort. On March 05 2013 12:56 yamato77 wrote: Extremely odd coincidence, IMO, that Dieno calls for this duel. Hapa's response is also odd, that he felt the need to comment on it. Almost as if he knew it was going to happen, and planned this stance in advance... Dieno called for this duel because I threatened his life if he didn't. The rest of this is just rubbish and complete speculation. On March 05 2013 12:56 yamato77 wrote: No vote backs this proclamation up. This is the problem with allowing people to sit on their asses with the "double lynch" stance, it lets mafia look townie while really doing nothing. I did a good job explaining this in my Acro case, and what Hapa is doing here is nearly a carbon copy, only the effort he puts into it is pathetically small, and I don't think town Hapa would avoid taking a side in this race. Thrawn said "if you had to vote for one, who would it be" not "You have to vote someone, so where is it". It was a hypothetical question. He was not forced into only voting one, so his lack of vote here means nothing. On March 05 2013 12:56 yamato77 wrote: This is a bold-faced lie. I, as mafia, am tunnelly and completely irrational, because that's how people think I am as town. Have I played that way this game? My reads have certainly changed; it's basically what people have been attacking me for this whole game. While you may not believe the reasons I give for these changes, the fact remains that I have explained them as well as they needed explaining. For Hapa to compare this game to British is absurd. He's drumming up a scum read on me because thread sentiment is turning against me. I want to duel Hapa today. If I'm in a duel, I'm dueling him, or someone is dueling me. Let it happen. Self-meta analysis, something I got dumped on for. I haven't read the game in question so I don't care to comment on it either direction. You say you've explained your read changes well, I don't find the explanations satisfactory, we're at an impasse on this one apparently. I made it very clear after Iamp posted that apparent joke case that if people put forward decent cases, I would back them. So quit the fucking pity party and come up with something better than that case - if the best you have is "his meta is different" then i will counter that with "so is mine - and therefore your argument means nothing to me". | ||
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Adam4167
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Your entire argument there is 'He wasn't around'. | ||
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Your activity is starting to irk me. When I get irked I make rash decisions. Ask Keirathi. | ||
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His absence really is not helping that. | ||
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Say I were to hammer him. Where does that leave us for tomorrow? If he flips town, what do we do? If he flips scum, then what? I feel like the answer to both questions is going to be kill Zarepath. That kind of bothers me a bit. | ||
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He's going to add something to this discussion, for future reference. | ||
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On March 05 2013 17:14 Oatsmaster wrote: Its 3am EST Only us SEA/Aus people around now except yamato. Why is it wrong if we want to kill zarepath tomorrow? If both outcomes result in the same answer, it doesn't really feel like we learned much from today. | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: Hapahauli | ||
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Yep, confused. | ||
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How in the hell did you come up with that o.o | ||
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How far off was that night post, I think I hammered Hapa around this time yesterday wasn't it? | ||
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Yeah my play was all over the place this game. I really cant believe you just AFK'd after that great bus Hapa, you had me following you for life after that one. I wanted to take a more active role in this game, as I said to oats. I spoke to Foolishness awhile ago about my play and he said "reads are OK, just push them more forcefully". So this looked like a good setup to really push my reads in. If there's any positives, I feel like I dodged every lynch-bait, which is something I have struggled with previously. I found that I find it harder to analyze the carnage when I'm at the center of it though, I have difficulty telling who's actually legitimately sheeping me or whos scum sitting in my blind spots. So if Alderan really is town.... where the fk has he gone?!? | ||
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Reading the Obs QT, id really like Artanis to vacate from inside my head, its quite disturbing. You know exactly what i'm thinking throughout the whole game. | ||
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Thats teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaammmwork. | ||
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