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This Town Ain't Big Enough Mafia - Page 52

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Snarfs
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada1006 Posts
February 27 2013 15:54 GMT
#1021
So to confirm, Cora, this is a policy lynch of yours? You'd rather see two people you believe are town die so that you can go through with this policy of lynching heroes (aka bad town, in your opinion), than consider lynching the other of your town reads?
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17965 Posts
February 27 2013 15:54 GMT
#1022
On February 28 2013 00:41 Snarfs wrote:
Acro, I think you making guesses at who's 3rd party when we don't have evidence of a third party is not smart.

Then explain to me the town motivation for knowing what you did is anti-town:
On February 26 2013 21:49 Adam4167 wrote:
LOL YEP, that quote looks quite bad.

I really wish I was scum, it'd make post-game far more bearable.


Yet being completely and utterly willing to do it again:
On February 26 2013 21:15 Adam4167 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2013 19:23 Acrofales wrote:

Adam: if you're town, you're a selfish douche who is not playing in town's best interest. I will reevaluate you, but I really feel like policy lynching you for playing like this. I will now fight my instincts, because I don't think policy lyncing idiots is a good idea, but that's the way I feel right now.


Well, I am town and you can call me whatever names you please, I give not a shit.

I cant even promise that this wont happen again if I survive this cycle.

<snip>



Given the rest of his play, I cannot reconcile a scum mindset. Given this play I cannot reconcile a town mindset. That leaves 3P with a wincon requiring him to win X duels, participate in X duels or something. This wincon would also explain how he got all triggerhappy and jumped in before Thrawn could: he needs to get those duels done.

Is it a bulletproof case? No. He could be a townie being a stupid, egotistical, twat. However, I have no evidence from any previous games ever that Adam is a stupid, egotistical, twat (and I've played in like 4 games with him). So I'll go with something that is consistent of what I know about Adam, the player: he has some funky wincon we don't know about that will force him to disrupt this town again and again.

Anyway, answer me this: what exactly would you need as "evidence" of a 3rd party? In a game where scum numbers are unknown, scum kp is unknown and the presence of 3P is explicitly made possible in the town wincon?
Snarfs
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada1006 Posts
February 27 2013 15:58 GMT
#1023
On February 28 2013 00:54 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 00:41 Snarfs wrote:
Acro, I think you making guesses at who's 3rd party when we don't have evidence of a third party is not smart.

Then explain to me the town motivation for knowing what you did is anti-town:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2013 21:49 Adam4167 wrote:
LOL YEP, that quote looks quite bad.

I really wish I was scum, it'd make post-game far more bearable.


Yet being completely and utterly willing to do it again:
Show nested quote +
On February 26 2013 21:15 Adam4167 wrote:
On February 26 2013 19:23 Acrofales wrote:

Adam: if you're town, you're a selfish douche who is not playing in town's best interest. I will reevaluate you, but I really feel like policy lynching you for playing like this. I will now fight my instincts, because I don't think policy lyncing idiots is a good idea, but that's the way I feel right now.


Well, I am town and you can call me whatever names you please, I give not a shit.

I cant even promise that this wont happen again if I survive this cycle.

<snip>



Given the rest of his play, I cannot reconcile a scum mindset. Given this play I cannot reconcile a town mindset. That leaves 3P with a wincon requiring him to win X duels, participate in X duels or something. This wincon would also explain how he got all triggerhappy and jumped in before Thrawn could: he needs to get those duels done.

Is it a bulletproof case? No. He could be a townie being a stupid, egotistical, twat. However, I have no evidence from any previous games ever that Adam is a stupid, egotistical, twat (and I've played in like 4 games with him). So I'll go with something that is consistent of what I know about Adam, the player: he has some funky wincon we don't know about that will force him to disrupt this town again and again.

Anyway, answer me this: what exactly would you need as "evidence" of a 3rd party? In a game where scum numbers are unknown, scum kp is unknown and the presence of 3P is explicitly made possible in the town wincon?

I would take more than one kill at night as a starting point.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17965 Posts
February 27 2013 15:59 GMT
#1024
On February 28 2013 00:53 zarepath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 00:50 Oatsmaster wrote:
Wait, Cora so what do you think about Adam saying that he would do it again?


Do you think that scum would EVER say that???

He has stated, in no uncertain terms, that he KNOWS it was horribly anti-town. Why would a townie EVER say that?
Alderan
Profile Joined September 2010
United States463 Posts
February 27 2013 16:00 GMT
#1025
Ok catching up on the thread, I'm going to respond to stuff as I see it.




On February 27 2013 23:47 Acrofales wrote:
Time for some math:

Show nested quote +
On February 27 2013 22:36 HiroPro wrote:
Duel 1 Vote Count


Adam4167 (4): yamato77, Sylencia, cDgCorazon, Dienosore
Keirathi (2): thrawn2112, Hapahauli

7 votes needed to lynch. If a majority is not reached in 18 hours by 07:40 GMT (+00:00), both duelists will die.

I added gonzaw and Vivax's filters in the "Important Posts" spoiler.


Add Zarepath to the Keirathi side of things, he claims he's just not voting because he doesn't want a lynch before all due diligence is done.

Double Lynch (3): Acro, Iamp, Oats

No vote: Alderan, Snarfs

Alderan: you have not taken a stance at all, except to fight VERY hard against a double lynch. Why are you so vague about who you think is scum?

Snarfs: your conclusion seems to be that Keirathi needs to die. Why is your vote not where your mouth is?


Regardless, the temporary conclusion is that a double lynch is going to happen. To prevent that you're going to have to convince a minimum of 2 people:

people on the other candidate that they are voting the wrong way.
people voting for a double lynch that the other candidate is town.

Get to it. I'm happy with the outcome as it is right now. Lets see what this discussion brings us!


TBH I don't think either are scum. I've been trying to make heads or tails of it, and waiting on the analysis post from each. Adam posted his and it largely seems pretty good analysis. Yes it's disappointing that it took this long, but doesn't make him seem scummy.

That said I'm purposely holding my vote and I'm placing it wherever will prevent a double lynch. I don't think its a good idea, I don't have a decent scum read on either, I'd rather have Adam still alive probably but if its him or both dead, I'm choosing him.

I just don't know how you all can be that on board with a double lynch. That is a horrendous policy, why am I the only one talking about it?
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17965 Posts
February 27 2013 16:01 GMT
#1026
On February 28 2013 00:58 Snarfs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 00:54 Acrofales wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:41 Snarfs wrote:
Acro, I think you making guesses at who's 3rd party when we don't have evidence of a third party is not smart.

Then explain to me the town motivation for knowing what you did is anti-town:
On February 26 2013 21:49 Adam4167 wrote:
LOL YEP, that quote looks quite bad.

I really wish I was scum, it'd make post-game far more bearable.


Yet being completely and utterly willing to do it again:
On February 26 2013 21:15 Adam4167 wrote:
On February 26 2013 19:23 Acrofales wrote:

Adam: if you're town, you're a selfish douche who is not playing in town's best interest. I will reevaluate you, but I really feel like policy lynching you for playing like this. I will now fight my instincts, because I don't think policy lyncing idiots is a good idea, but that's the way I feel right now.


Well, I am town and you can call me whatever names you please, I give not a shit.

I cant even promise that this wont happen again if I survive this cycle.

<snip>



Given the rest of his play, I cannot reconcile a scum mindset. Given this play I cannot reconcile a town mindset. That leaves 3P with a wincon requiring him to win X duels, participate in X duels or something. This wincon would also explain how he got all triggerhappy and jumped in before Thrawn could: he needs to get those duels done.

Is it a bulletproof case? No. He could be a townie being a stupid, egotistical, twat. However, I have no evidence from any previous games ever that Adam is a stupid, egotistical, twat (and I've played in like 4 games with him). So I'll go with something that is consistent of what I know about Adam, the player: he has some funky wincon we don't know about that will force him to disrupt this town again and again.

Anyway, answer me this: what exactly would you need as "evidence" of a 3rd party? In a game where scum numbers are unknown, scum kp is unknown and the presence of 3P is explicitly made possible in the town wincon?

I would take more than one kill at night as a starting point.


Why? I don't think he's an SK. I think he has a duel-related wincon. You want 3P that has no KP? See Marv in PU, see me in CT, see any game ever that has a survivor.

All these games had 3P with more-or-less anti-town wincons, yet no extra KP. Why are you excluding their presence here?
zarepath
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1626 Posts
February 27 2013 16:03 GMT
#1027
Alderan, will you vote for Keirathi then? Adam looks more town than Keirathi does.
"Your efforts you put in will never betray you." - Flash | "If I'm not good enough, I don't wanna win." - Naniwa
zarepath
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1626 Posts
February 27 2013 16:04 GMT
#1028
Everyone who is voting for Adam for policy reasons needs to rethink their life, or at least their mafia play.
"Your efforts you put in will never betray you." - Flash | "If I'm not good enough, I don't wanna win." - Naniwa
Alderan
Profile Joined September 2010
United States463 Posts
February 27 2013 16:05 GMT
#1029
On February 28 2013 00:59 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 00:53 zarepath wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:50 Oatsmaster wrote:
Wait, Cora so what do you think about Adam saying that he would do it again?


Do you think that scum would EVER say that???

He has stated, in no uncertain terms, that he KNOWS it was horribly anti-town. Why would a townie EVER say that?


A townie would say that, scum wouldn't.
Alderan
Profile Joined September 2010
United States463 Posts
February 27 2013 16:07 GMT
#1030
On February 28 2013 01:03 zarepath wrote:
Alderan, will you vote for Keirathi then? Adam looks more town than Keirathi does.


I will vote for whoever my vote would kill.

On the one hand if we kill Adam we set a precedent that early out of line duels make you appear more scummy and thus people won't want to do them.

But then on the other hand Adam's reads have been better than Keirathi's imo.

Again, number one goal is that they both don't die.

Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17965 Posts
February 27 2013 16:07 GMT
#1031
On February 28 2013 01:05 Alderan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 00:59 Acrofales wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:53 zarepath wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:50 Oatsmaster wrote:
Wait, Cora so what do you think about Adam saying that he would do it again?


Do you think that scum would EVER say that???

He has stated, in no uncertain terms, that he KNOWS it was horribly anti-town. Why would a townie EVER say that?


A townie would say that, scum wouldn't.

A townie would say "What I did was anti-town, but I will do it again without hesitation"?

Anyway, this seems to imply you have a town read on Adam, yet are completely happy lynching him and are just waiting to hammer whoever is hammerable. Explain your town read on Keirathi, or die next cycle.
zarepath
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1626 Posts
February 27 2013 16:10 GMT
#1032
On February 28 2013 00:59 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 00:53 zarepath wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:50 Oatsmaster wrote:
Wait, Cora so what do you think about Adam saying that he would do it again?


Do you think that scum would EVER say that???

He has stated, in no uncertain terms, that he KNOWS it was horribly anti-town. Why would a townie EVER say that?


I can't find that statement anywhere... I found a statement where he suggests people will give him a hard time post-game.
"Your efforts you put in will never betray you." - Flash | "If I'm not good enough, I don't wanna win." - Naniwa
zarepath
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1626 Posts
February 27 2013 16:13 GMT
#1033
On February 28 2013 01:07 Alderan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 01:03 zarepath wrote:
Alderan, will you vote for Keirathi then? Adam looks more town than Keirathi does.


I will vote for whoever my vote would kill.

On the one hand if we kill Adam we set a precedent that early out of line duels make you appear more scummy and thus people won't want to do them.

But then on the other hand Adam's reads have been better than Keirathi's imo.

Again, number one goal is that they both don't die.



If your priority is to make sure someone dies and there's not a double-lynch, then you MUST switch your vote (especially considering that the evidence you listed in this quote does more to suggest an Adam town than it does a Keirathi town).

Kill Keirathi. Your vote remaining on Adam does less to kill Adam than moving it onto Keirathi does to kill Keirathi.
"Your efforts you put in will never betray you." - Flash | "If I'm not good enough, I don't wanna win." - Naniwa
zarepath
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1626 Posts
February 27 2013 16:14 GMT
#1034
EBWOP: Forgot that Alderan is voting for nobody right now. I still think he should vote Keirathi.
"Your efforts you put in will never betray you." - Flash | "If I'm not good enough, I don't wanna win." - Naniwa
Alderan
Profile Joined September 2010
United States463 Posts
February 27 2013 16:16 GMT
#1035
On February 28 2013 01:07 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 01:05 Alderan wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:59 Acrofales wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:53 zarepath wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:50 Oatsmaster wrote:
Wait, Cora so what do you think about Adam saying that he would do it again?


Do you think that scum would EVER say that???

He has stated, in no uncertain terms, that he KNOWS it was horribly anti-town. Why would a townie EVER say that?


A townie would say that, scum wouldn't.

A townie would say "What I did was anti-town, but I will do it again without hesitation"?

Anyway, this seems to imply you have a town read on Adam, yet are completely happy lynching him and are just waiting to hammer whoever is hammerable. Explain your town read on Keirathi, or die next cycle.


I don't know who you think you are taking on the leader of the town position, because your play thus far has been so anti town it's ridiculous.

First off, I believe he's entirely too disinterested to be playing scum. It's always been my experience that scum early game are usually deliberate, you don't see a lot of afk time from when they are under pressure because it's easy enough to get your scum mates to write a couple responses you can just throw up. Just wreaks of a townie that's given up.

On the other hand he has offered absolutely nothing in the way of analysis, which is exactly why I said I would rather Adam live. It's not a complicated situation, I have townish reads on both, thus don't want both to die, if I had to chose it'd be Keirathi. The fact that we can't even choose who we want to kill because you've muddied up the waters so much with the fucking double lynch talk is absolutely asinine.


Alderan
Profile Joined September 2010
United States463 Posts
February 27 2013 16:18 GMT
#1036
On February 28 2013 01:14 zarepath wrote:
EBWOP: Forgot that Alderan is voting for nobody right now. I still think he should vote Keirathi.


Yeah I'll move it to Keirathi and I'll just be ready to switch if need be.

##Vote: Keirathi
Oatsmaster
Profile Joined October 2012
United States16628 Posts
February 27 2013 16:18 GMT
#1037
Zarepath, why are you not in favour of a double lynch?

Ok if adam is town, WHY DID HE SAY HE WOULD DO THIS STUPID KIND OF LYNCH AGAIN?

Also, he basically made us waste 60 hours. Is that town favoured? Or scum favored?
Is his meta in anyway matching his town meta? Are the differences scummy?
IMO they are.
He knew that someone would pull the 'no point as scum' to defend him WHEN THERE IS A HUGE advantage to scum if adam doesnt get lynched.
No gg, No skill.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17965 Posts
February 27 2013 16:19 GMT
#1038
On February 28 2013 01:10 zarepath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 00:59 Acrofales wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:53 zarepath wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:50 Oatsmaster wrote:
Wait, Cora so what do you think about Adam saying that he would do it again?


Do you think that scum would EVER say that???

He has stated, in no uncertain terms, that he KNOWS it was horribly anti-town. Why would a townie EVER say that?


I can't find that statement anywhere... I found a statement where he suggests people will give him a hard time post-game.

Which means he knows he did something wrong, doesn't it? Now what did he do wrong? Well, that's in the post he quotes (quoted by me, and I quoted it from CT):

I find scum rarely do this, as they would rather just pounce on the person without actually giving them a chance to explain their behaviour, just in case the person has a reason for what they're doing, then the scum has to go find someone else to fabricate a case on. This is fake-able as scum, yes, but giving people a chance to explain themselves makes your job much harder.


This means he knows it was wrong. AKA anti-town.

And yet, he is unrepentant and warns that he will do it again.
Alderan
Profile Joined September 2010
United States463 Posts
February 27 2013 16:21 GMT
#1039
On February 28 2013 01:19 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 01:10 zarepath wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:59 Acrofales wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:53 zarepath wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:50 Oatsmaster wrote:
Wait, Cora so what do you think about Adam saying that he would do it again?


Do you think that scum would EVER say that???

He has stated, in no uncertain terms, that he KNOWS it was horribly anti-town. Why would a townie EVER say that?


I can't find that statement anywhere... I found a statement where he suggests people will give him a hard time post-game.

Which means he knows he did something wrong, doesn't it? Now what did he do wrong? Well, that's in the post he quotes (quoted by me, and I quoted it from CT):
Show nested quote +

I find scum rarely do this, as they would rather just pounce on the person without actually giving them a chance to explain their behaviour, just in case the person has a reason for what they're doing, then the scum has to go find someone else to fabricate a case on. This is fake-able as scum, yes, but giving people a chance to explain themselves makes your job much harder.


This means he knows it was wrong. AKA anti-town.

And yet, he is unrepentant and warns that he will do it again.


So Acrofales you believe Keirathi is town then?
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17965 Posts
February 27 2013 16:30 GMT
#1040
On February 28 2013 01:16 Alderan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2013 01:07 Acrofales wrote:
On February 28 2013 01:05 Alderan wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:59 Acrofales wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:53 zarepath wrote:
On February 28 2013 00:50 Oatsmaster wrote:
Wait, Cora so what do you think about Adam saying that he would do it again?


Do you think that scum would EVER say that???

He has stated, in no uncertain terms, that he KNOWS it was horribly anti-town. Why would a townie EVER say that?


A townie would say that, scum wouldn't.

A townie would say "What I did was anti-town, but I will do it again without hesitation"?

Anyway, this seems to imply you have a town read on Adam, yet are completely happy lynching him and are just waiting to hammer whoever is hammerable. Explain your town read on Keirathi, or die next cycle.


I don't know who you think you are taking on the leader of the town position, because your play thus far has been so anti town it's ridiculous.

First off, I believe he's entirely too disinterested to be playing scum. It's always been my experience that scum early game are usually deliberate, you don't see a lot of afk time from when they are under pressure because it's easy enough to get your scum mates to write a couple responses you can just throw up. Just wreaks of a townie that's given up.


On the other hand he has offered absolutely nothing in the way of analysis, which is exactly why I said I would rather Adam live. It's not a complicated situation, I have townish reads on both, thus don't want both to die, if I had to chose it'd be Keirathi. The fact that we can't even choose who we want to kill because you've muddied up the waters so much with the fucking double lynch talk is absolutely asinine.



(bolded part)
Dafuq? I want some of what you are smoking, man! Have you played on TL in the last year or so? Like... seriously? What kind of deluded idea do you have of how mafia play? Examples of mafia not playing anything like what you're saying:

  • Sevryn in NMM 37
  • Entire team in Fruity
  • Adam in Hero Mini
  • The entire mafia team except austinmcc in Chrono Trigger


I could continue this list with about a hundred more examples. Keirathi is scum. He got caught, and a mix of not enough time, and despair at having to prove his townieness against people who know him rather well has made him throw the towel in the ring.
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